Maybe I'm just getting old. I started playing mandolin about two and half years ago and I'm fairly contented with the progress I'm making - BUT , I've recently plucked up enough nerve to go to a couple of sessions and people have been encouraging. So my problem- tunes that I can play at home no trouble, rolling of the plectrum, can play along with my wife no problem. I go out to a session and my memory goes blank. If I can start of with atune the second part will probably disapear. Yet the minute the playing stops the whole thing comes springing back. How do I cope? I love playing and long to play with others (so much so I even gave up the guiness to try to stay sober enough, it didn't help)
I sometimes also forget tunes. But this is mostly when a tune closely resembles another tune, I get mixed up and go into the wrong tune. This is a good reason not to bother learning similar tunes.
Another reason for forgeting tunes is that they're just not memorable. This is another reason not to bother learning them. (And before anyone says: yes, "momorable" is a personal opinion)
I am impressed with how many tunes I have actually committed to memory. (Although I have heard it said, "The best fiddlers (pipers, box players, etc.) have forgotten more tunes than the likes of me will ever know!")
However, when it comes to sessions, I sometimes have the same problem as you, Davetnova. I think I need to hear the tune, then think of what the title is (I always need to translate stuff into words), then I can start playing. Often, by the time the title pops up in my brain, they're on to the next tune. If I know the tune inside and out, though, the title is right there, instantaeously, and I can start in with the gang. For me, the key is, know your stuff inside and out and upside down and backwards!
At my local session a very accomplished player wears a badge - "I played it perfectly at home!".
Taking your music to other people - even if they're the most supportive bunch of people you could hope to meet - is a big step, but a vital step. Don't turn back.
There's no harm in admitting to people that you find the session a wee bit nerve-wracking. Ask if you could play a tune more or less solo (at least for the first go-round) - this is often easier than having to adjust your playing when others chime in (we all have to do that ... but even microscopic adjustments can flummox you when you're nervous).
However developing friendships with the players can be the best help. Amateur players such as ourselves nearly always play better with friends.
I guarantee that if you persevere, you'll find yourself relaxing more and the quality of your performance (which is a different kettle of fish to playing in your own home) will improve.
And finally - remember that we don't have to play like the professionals to give pleasure to others. Gary Hastings, a superb player, is convinced that traditional music isn't about the music at all ... it's about the people, the crack, the silences, the lies, the hand-me-down fa-laa fa-laa. (I paraphrase but you'll get the gist!) Just stick with it ...
I find it helps greatly if I have the name of a tune, and quite often can't get "into" a tune until I have the name of it in my head. This is often a problem in Ireland, as a lot of players don't seem to bother remembering titles. I may recognise the actual melody, but struggle to start with until I get the name, then I'm off.
Happened at a session only last Wednesday night.
Well, this is a chance for the psychologists among us to come to the rescue! I'm middle-aged, have been playing the fiddle for nearly two years, and have much the same problem. I'm convinced that it is at least partly age-related and it's also the problem of recalling under the slightly more stressful circumstances of a session than in the relaxed atmosphere of your own domestic surroundings.
Clearly, you haven't forgotten the tunes, because they came back to you later. Even after two and a half years there is still a long road to travel in acquiring a fluid technique, and I think that until one's technique is absolutely 100% and automatic the recall problem will be there because part of your brain is thinking (subconsiously perhaps) about technique and this will inhibit memory recall to a certain extent - the old problem of trying to really think about two things at once.
Another thing, at home you practice and play at one speed; at the session the rest of the gang are probably playing 10-20% faster. This is more than enough for your memory recall to throw a wobbly if your technique isn't quite up to it. One way to gradually get up to speed is to try to play along with a recording on your computer but to use one of those software do-hickeys that can alter the speed without altering the pitch of the music. Start at a speed you can manage and over a period of time (weeks perhaps) gradually wind up the speed until you reach session speed.
Chris Reynolds, if you're reading this, your input as an experienced mandolinist would be appreciated.
Memory problems can happen to the best. Last year at Listowel one of Ireland's greatest fiddlers was playing one of his own compositions on stage in a concert when he stopped suddenly at the end of part A, laughed and said "I've forgotten me own b----y tune!" Whereupon he had a quick word with another musician at the side of the stage who presumably hummed it to him, returned to the front of the stage and played the tune again, this time faultlessly. That's how a honed and polished professional dealt with an otherwise awkward situation, he laughed it off.
If all else fails, try that sovereign remedy for all ills - poteen. I guarantee you then won't be aware of any problems!
Forgetting tunes that are not memorable, as Michael suggests, seems like a good thing, but what about those tunes you hate that get stuck in your head? Advertising jingles and the like. Aaargh! And they're probably crowding out the stuff you want to know!
Maybe there's some fastidious way of cataloguing that would help -- putting the names on an index card, along with an ABC account of the first four notes of each section, or something like that. But then, you really are putting yourself at the mercy of your session mates. "Sorry, folks, but I'm in the advance stages of senility, and I really must consult my memory crutch before we can continue, do you mind?"
Maybe, Davetnova, you are going the wrong way: instead of cutting back on the Guinness, step up the dosage.
Anyway, uh, unless you think 29 is also approaching senility, it totally happens to me too (let's not ask mark dejong haha). As a matter of fact, Banish Misfortune slid off my brain like teflon for an embarrassingly long time, while my fiddler grew attached to it immediately. I play it well now & love it, but I'll never forget that feeling of just not getting it. Yeah, it can feel like acute Alzheimers setting in. But sadly I do agree that knowing the title is an instant cure, for better or worse. Like on the Bothy Band's Old Hag You Have Killed Me set, they only list the one tune as a descriptor. I recently learned Morrison's Jig, & had to pull the car off the road when after the umpteen hundredth listen, the last tune in that amazing set is in fact Morrison's. *doh* (if anyone knows the name of the middle tune, I'd be obliged)
Thaks for the reassurances. Thank god its not just me. I've taken all your comments on board and will continue trying to improve and will continue to try to play with others.
When I first came across this site, not that long ago, I thought - These people are worryung about nuances of style being wrong and I'm happy if I get most of the notes right. But I lurk and hopefully learn. It's a wonderful site and it's nice to see the tunes people actually play being posted rather than working through collections that have twelve good tunes interspersed among a hundred that no-one has played for years and never will.
I'll keep lurking and hopefully I will reach the stage where I can contribute, until then you will no doubt only read whinging cries for reassurance from me.
At a workshop in Listowel last year we were given advice on how to deal with the situation where you're playing a tune you know and then halfway into a part your mind goes blank. The thing to do is to keep on playing, keep those fingers/bow moving, faff the notes but keep the beat and rhythm going. The chances are that the rest of the tune will fall back into place after a couple of bars and no-one will notice. I've seen players do this on a number of occasions in sessions and even on stage.
-m
All good advice here, eccept maybe for Aiden's posting near the top where it is suggested that you could ask if you could play the tune on you own for a bit. Kind of defeats the piont.
I'm also amazed at the thing about knowing a tune's name helps you remember it. I just don't know how you guys do it. The names of tunes are the only thing I have a real problem remembering. So I just don't bother. Nearly every tune I know comes under that old classic title "The one-eyed stag" (No eye deer)
I've heard it said that,"If yoy know the names of all your tunes, then you don't know enough tunes!". Being one of those who does know the names of all my tunes, I thought that was pretty snotty. Somehow, it acts as a memory aid for me. There's a greek word for that--I forget what it is...
Maybe I didn't make the point sufficiently well. But speaking as a player who has a limited repertoire and is struggling to develop the ability to play to a decent standard in public, one of the things I find off-putting is that if I kick off a tune - say The Maid Behind The Bar - immediately for some hot-shot on a loud instrument - say a melodeon - to kick in before I've developed the tune and immediately to play at a pace I find it difficult to keep up with and in a setting which jars with the setting I'm playing. (OK so the example is a bit too specific ... I'm still smarting over that one.)
One of the tacics I've used in the past which has worked for me ... hence the reason I suggested it for others ... is to ask if I could be given the space to play solo the opening tune once round in a set and ask everyone to come in at the first repeat. This has three advanatages. Firstly it allows me to hear my instrument (I play mandolin mostly). Secondly it allows me to play the tune as I've learned without having immediately to accommodate to others' variations. Thirdly it sets the tempo and rhythm for the others so that when they do come in, I can hopefully continuen playing in my own way. The end result - perhaps a little more confidence!
Mandolins are notoriously quiet instruments. Given the opportunity to play with perhaps another string instrument as accompaniment, they can ring out. But they can't compete well with boxes or pipes or even banjos. Yet they have a lovely sound.
I take Michael's point to be that the session is about ensemble playing - mucking in, if you like. But I think the good sessions I've been at embrace the notion of mucking in and the notion of allowing both the virtuoso player and the enthusiastic novice the opportunity on occasion to be allowed room to play solo. The good session will, in fact, spot a player like Dave and give him some space without being asked.
When I grew up in Co Armagh, at family gatherings and other come-all-ye's (the word session wasn't current there then) the rule of thumb was that the nervous singer or player would be given special order and special encouragement and the rule was that everyone's input was equally valued. Some of us may have been more proficient, more experienced, more accomplished, more boisterous. But it was the act of sharing a song or a tune that mattered - it all kep' 'er lit an' pointin' North as my granda would have said.
Your unhappy incident with that melodeon player is an all too common example of thoughtlessness on the part of the louder player. I believe this sort of thing has been addressed in another thread somewhere on this site. In my orchestral playing (I'm a cellist) the strings are sometimes told by the conductor that if they can't hear the soloist (often a flautist) then they're playing too loud. Similar advice (or a directive!) from the conductor in pianissimo passages is "if you can't hear the player next to you then you're playing too loud!", or words to that effect. This sort of advice, suitably modified, could be used on occasion in sessions.
The approach you have adopted to your problem is probably as close as you can hope to get to an ideal solution. If it's carried out a few times then perhaps the loud players will get the message.
Also, try not to smile too often at the loud players - it only encourages them!
The word for memory aid that Andee was looking for, I think, may be "mnemonic," as in "the title works as a mnemonic device." Only it doesn't, at least not for me. To me, the title is just one more thing to try to remember. "The One-eyed Stag." I like that, and I plan to rename every tune I know accordingly.
Somebody I know who used to sing in a choir told me the conductor's instructions for singers who forget their lyrics: "Just sing the word `watermelon' until you figure out where you were." The idea was to keep your lips and vocal cords moving until your brain reengaged. Presumably, if you know what key you're playing in, you should be able to play some version of the word `watermelon' to fill in any and all memory lapses -- except the one that prevents you from knowing what key a tune even starts in until well after it started!
Aiden,
I agree with everything you say. Maybe my point was that you shouldn't have to ask. Session etiquet (Spelling?) dictates that everybody plays the tune to the pace of whoever started it. Macsheoinin has it right, that melodion player needs a good frowning at.
I wonder if it's worth considering taking some kind of music sheet along to the session. Before you dismiss this as a way of losing sesh-cred completely, there are ways of lessening the embarassment factor.
You can write out the jist of a dozen or more tunes on one sheet of paper, fold it in half and sit it beside your pint glass!, Who's going to have a problem with that!
Don't forget that the good players are going to know that your'e a beginner anyway and if you know them, and you don't bring along a big stand and reems of paper, they should be fine with it.
It's only the more competitively minded intermediates that you need to worry about (and who cares what they think?).
I have no problem remembering tunes, but I have sometimes taken a list of tune names along to sessions, it's good for remembering the tunes that you only occasionally play and might overlook otherwise. It helps introduce a bigger variety of tunes and styles to the sesssion too (ie. less"not that dam set again...").
Incidentally, I've now got about a dozen tunes all called "reel in D", so I add bits like "with the twiddly bit" or "play sober only" etc
Kenn--I do exactly what you suggested. I have my "list of tunes" with the key and type of tune it is written next to it. The old-timers and advanced players find it very endearing. My favorite old fiddle guy, when there's a lull in the session reaches over to my list and says, "Ahh, Andee--what's on your list? What new tune are you working on?" A great way to get to those tunes you might have otherwise not thought of.
I remember an old flute player in Ireland showing me his list of tunes hidden away in the bottom of the flute case, for those occasions when he couldn't remember even which tunes he knew. That seemed like good advice, so I have a list of most of the tunes I know (knew...) with the ABCs for the first couple of bars written out. It sits at home in a drawer, but it's comforting to know it's there if I need it.
I can usually remember dozens of tunes (out of many more), but often just not the one I want to play on a particular occasion. Sometimes knowing the name helps, and sometimes it doesn't.
These days, it seems like it's easier for me to try and figure out some distinctive pattern of notes, rhythm or finger movements that identifies each tune, or some core *feeling* about the tune, and work on remembering that, rather than the name. I've been a chronic name-rememberer over the years, and while it's handy for your session mates, I'm starting to think it's not much help when it comes to actually getting the tune under your fingers.
The problem happens when you start to hum or play tunes you've subconciously learned at sessions or from recordings, really like and want to remember. If you're hooked on the name, it's going to be very difficult to get back to that tune, and it might be several weeks or months before it pops back into your head. Better to figure out how to recall some handy phrase or twiddly bit.
Greg
ps. for emily_: the BB Morrison's set is Old Hag You Have Killed Me/Dinny Delany's/The Yellow Wattle/Morrison's, according to my notes on the sleeve, which I would take with a grain of salt.
I think every gets those "I just can't think of a tune to play" moments.
Mine is usually at about three and a half pints. I usually just sit back with a broad grin and wait for some one else to kick off a set. Then by four and a half, I'm fine, and I'll knock together a set of ten or so reels no bother.
It only becomes an issue when no one can think of any tunes. But even then, an extra pint fixes it. I tend to think that if the tune doesn't immediatly present itself at the front of your brain, it's probably not the right tune for that moment anyway.
And Aiden, it doesn't matter how good a player is, rude is still rude
She is so right. I usually forget two things off a list of one item.
I think I remember the name of the tune until I can play it - then it doesn't matter anymore. I have the same problem where the first few notes just escape me. Once we are into the tune - I'm on auto pilot.
Mark,
try not to get too comfortable with the auto pilot. I know what you mean and sympathise, but auto pilot can mean you play the tune the same each time. Remember your variations
I should start by pointing out that I don't know that many tunes - not enough to be very handy in a session yet. But I do find that the more I learn, the less the names either matter or help - especially as some tunes have several names, (and some names have several tunes) and that only confuses matters. I now find, like Greg, that remembering a little identifying phrase is much more helpful. Or sometimes it's a combination of the name and the tune - like 'Merrily Kissed the Quaker', where the last line of each part scans with merrily-kissed-the-quaker, so I can always remember that one. Or 'Maid behind the Bar' - a friend used to sing 'Barmaid, Barmaid, Maid behind the Bar!' at the end of each part. Easily amused, obviously..
Or sometimes there's a kind of picture in the tune, that helps. Like in 'the Ship in Full Sail' the first line sounds like a description of the sails on a tall ship - er, OK, a bit far-fetched but it's proved a useful mnemonic for that tune, I can't forget it now. I remember phone numbers by pictures as well though - my parents' one looks like a pram and my brother's one used to resemble the constellation of Bootes...
There are two kinds of memory problem, I think - one is remembering how the tune goes once you've started it, and the other is bringing it to mind at all. When I first learn a tune (or song) there seems to be a huge black hole in my memory and it's a massive effort to remember the first line - then I'm fine. I think you just have to be patient and wait for it to get into your long-term memory, and then it's just a matter of finding it in amongst all that other stuff you've got in there...
Practice, Practice, Practice - until it is so firmly embedded in your head that you wont forget.
If someone else starts to speed up then just keep your own pace - sometimes it's a good idea to agree the tune with a really strong player who can keep pace with you and slow the enthusiastic one down a wee bit.
On occasion if someone races off with my tune I stop playing and let them know it's MY set. Rude deserves rude!!
Stopping playing is a good one. The offending person is usually very embarrassed, which they deserve. But as soon as they stop, you can start again at your pace and said offender will join in at the right speed and they'll be repentant but happy and you'll be happy and there'll be no need for the boring post mortum.
To go back to the original question --- Do you think these memory lapses could be attributed to nerves? If you're unaccustomed to playing with other folks, it can be intimidating. My advice --- just play. In both senses of the word. Keep going to sessions, join in when you can, and relax and enjoy the session. Before you know it, you won't be forgetting the tunes any more; it will all seem quite natural.
The whole point is to have fun. I live in Texas, so I often think how amazing it is to have not only fiddles and guitars and flutes, but also penny whistles, hammered dulcimers, bodhrans and even a hurdy gurdy coming out of the woodwork. And when everybody in the room is singing Wild Mountain Thyme: well, music truly is a form of communion.
I find that tunes will ‘fly’ especially if I know them really well. I think it’s that ‘autopilot’ syndrome. I have particular danger points such as the last time round in the third from last bar of the b music.
I’m amazed how many of us need to have the tune title to be able to recall how the tune goes. I’d have thought that if you know it, you should be able to play it. Is this phenomena because those of us with the problem learnt not by ear but from music notation?
When learning a tune in the early stages, I have to really analyse it and break it down into phrases. I also have to concentrate on the first four notes to get the feel of that particular tune. I have to sing the tune in my head, and think ahead at the same time to feel when I’ll add some ornamentation.
And that elusive fluid technique. I agree with that one. Without it you’re always thinking about HOW your going to play instead HOW you want it to sound and come over.
I wonder if there are any actors out there who have problems remembering lines. Perhaps they could help. I'd doubt that remembering lines is easier if you can remember the title of the play, but you never know
This is a most interesting discussion. There are any number of us who 'forget' tunes in the heat of public performance. I am an actor and a fiddler whose fingers often 'forget'. Iput the word in quotation marks because, in fact, they do not forget since, in other venues, they remember easily. So what is it?
Consider this. Most human behavior is based on fear. And there a just a few fears that regulate our response. We fear the loss of life. We fear being thought of as a fool. We fear actually being a fool (insane). And we fear speaking (performing) in public. This last is probably the same as being thought a fool. It is this basic fear that prevents us from succeeding... not remembering is a way to avoid being successful, and therefore not having to repeat your success. If we understand that we do not have to be "successful" in order to achieve our goal of just playing but we merely need to play as well as we can at the moment, we will find that our fear of failure and/or success will fade away and our ability to just play will be enhanced. I have much of my life just trying to get out of my own way. And once the experience enters your consciousness, the effect is overwhelming... you begin to play in a space where failure or success is not relevant, and hearing your own fine music is.
Yes, my fingers forget. But I do not take it seriously. I play the tune until they cannot forget and I am without the fear of being thought foolish or stupid. I am caught up in the music and the moment and enjoying with others a new synergy. If you can sing it, you can play it. And it is fun, and through the analysing and singing, the discovery of the essence of a tune is a joy to be shared.
And if this sounds too "out there", try not putting yourself beyond the fear and just enjoying the music. I think you'll find you forget less and less.
Well before Michael can take a crack at the fear comment lol, let me have a go. I think certain personality types are more governed by fear than others. While I have no fear of speaking or playing in public, or of death, or anthrax, or traveling alone, etc etc, I absolutely dread performing mundane tasks such as opening my mail & doing laundry. I think many personality types are driven by love, admiration, hunger, the need to do 'the right thing', etc. but not necessarily fear. I, for one, cannot blame fear for my memory lapses. In the Buddhist tradition (which I am not actually a Buddhist, but anyway, according to my understanding), there are many reasons why a person may fail at meditation, ie the Doubting Mind, the Judging Mind, I think I suffer primarily from the Monkey Mind, where your mind just leaps around, but if anything, for me, public performance centers & crystallizes that tendency & my playing benefits immensely.
I agree with emily that fear is not always the culprit. Also I have to defend myself from the comment that maybe those of us who need the tune name in order to remember and play the tune may have this "problem" because we learned from written music, and not by ear. (I paraphrased) Maybe true for some, but not for me--I learn everything by ear. And it's not really a huge problem for me, either--it's just those few times when--darn! you realize what the tune was by the 3rd time around, and now they're onto the next tune! I just really like tune titles; most often they pop up instantaeously when the tune starts.
Yes, but fear and anxiety are also the basis of social behaviour - fear of exclusion/reprisal/loss of heirarchical position/etc are probably very necessary components of the social instinct that keeps us from doing unacceptable things...
Fear of embarrassment or failure might be a crippling thing, that's definately best dispensed with, in playing music; but it does have an instinctive background which can't be easily junked.
Er, well, that's my theory...
An underlying fear of embarrassment or failure in performance need not be crippling. Quite the reverse. Most public performers have it, often right through their careers, but they generally overcome it and go out on stage to give a blazing performance. The spark of fear lights the furnace that fires the performance.
Fear in fact shows a healthy respect for the audience, as a result of which the performer wants to give of their very best. I am of the view that a performer who doesn't have this underlying fear doesn't have this basic respect and care for the audience and the result is that the audience won't get 100% of what they should be getting.
In order to be able to overcome stage fear and to utilise its energy to the best advantage it is essential not only to be 100% on top of your playing technique but also to be 100% on top of the tunes you're going to play. It is easy to overlook the second one. A player may have recently learnt a great tune which has gone well in sessions and he's eager to play it solo on stage in his next gig. He shouldn't. It is much better for him to live with the tune and to understand it thoroughly over a period of several months, even a year, and then he will be in a much better position to give a commanding performance at a gig.
More generally, fear is a good instinct and is essential to the survival of the species. If our ancestors didn't have that overriding fear of the predator stalking them then we wouldn't be discussing it now. It still applies now; like they say, there are fearless bikers and old bikers, but no fearless old bikers.
Well put, macsheoinin. On the question of stage fright, it certainly does inject some adrenalin into your performance. It can also wreck your performance, though. For a singer, it's particularly problematic, as any shakes or loss of breath control will really show... and I'm speaking from experience here...
It can also deprive the player of any enjoyment in the performance, which is self-defeating, and ends some careers. So there's a question of degree - but I agree with you that fear is instinctively necessary and a natural part of a good performance.
Hmmmm, performing.
I accept your stuff obout fear of failure in a performance. When I go to a gig I want to know that said performer is giving me their best, and if a bit of fear helps, then fair enough.
But diddling in your local boozer though is another thing. Playing in a session is not a performance. There is no need to be scared
Helen,
You're quite right about stage-fright. Perhaps I should have made the point that "fear" on stage runs the whole gamut from "complete lack of" through a frisson of excitement, nervousness, to full-blown stage fright. Neither of the extremes is desirable, either from the audience's or performer's point of view. An audience may not be fully aware of the lower extreme, so the performer gets away with it. He won't get away with it for ever, though. Sooner or later it will be noticed and he'll probably never make it into the premier league.
On the other hand, full-blown stage-fright is a real problem if it results in loss of control which is evident to others, and has resulted in careers being ruined. A performer suffering at this level of stage-fright needs help, which can often be given by a good teacher who is also an experienced performer.
It now occurs to me that the subject of stage fright is a big one which should be a separate thread which I've now started to see what useful input there is from the 4000-odd members of The Session.
Memory
Memory
Maybe I'm just getting old. I started playing mandolin about two and half years ago and I'm fairly contented with the progress I'm making - BUT , I've recently plucked up enough nerve to go to a couple of sessions and people have been encouraging. So my problem- tunes that I can play at home no trouble, rolling of the plectrum, can play along with my wife no problem. I go out to a session and my memory goes blank. If I can start of with atune the second part will probably disapear. Yet the minute the playing stops the whole thing comes springing back. How do I cope? I love playing and long to play with others (so much so I even gave up the guiness to try to stay sober enough, it didn't help)
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Davetnova
Re: Memory
I sometimes also forget tunes. But this is mostly when a tune closely resembles another tune, I get mixed up and go into the wrong tune. This is a good reason not to bother learning similar tunes.
Another reason for forgeting tunes is that they're just not memorable. This is another reason not to bother learning them. (And before anyone says: yes, "momorable" is a personal opinion)
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
I am impressed with how many tunes I have actually committed to memory. (Although I have heard it said, "The best fiddlers (pipers, box players, etc.) have forgotten more tunes than the likes of me will ever know!")
However, when it comes to sessions, I sometimes have the same problem as you, Davetnova. I think I need to hear the tune, then think of what the title is (I always need to translate stuff into words), then I can start playing. Often, by the time the title pops up in my brain, they're on to the next tune. If I know the tune inside and out, though, the title is right there, instantaeously, and I can start in with the gang. For me, the key is, know your stuff inside and out and upside down and backwards!
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Andee
Re: Memory
Dave ...
I'm with you, mate!
At my local session a very accomplished player wears a badge - "I played it perfectly at home!".
Taking your music to other people - even if they're the most supportive bunch of people you could hope to meet - is a big step, but a vital step. Don't turn back.
There's no harm in admitting to people that you find the session a wee bit nerve-wracking. Ask if you could play a tune more or less solo (at least for the first go-round) - this is often easier than having to adjust your playing when others chime in (we all have to do that ... but even microscopic adjustments can flummox you when you're nervous).
However developing friendships with the players can be the best help. Amateur players such as ourselves nearly always play better with friends.
I guarantee that if you persevere, you'll find yourself relaxing more and the quality of your performance (which is a different kettle of fish to playing in your own home) will improve.
And finally - remember that we don't have to play like the professionals to give pleasure to others. Gary Hastings, a superb player, is convinced that traditional music isn't about the music at all ... it's about the people, the crack, the silences, the lies, the hand-me-down fa-laa fa-laa. (I paraphrase but you'll get the gist!) Just stick with it ...
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Memory
I find it helps greatly if I have the name of a tune, and quite often can't get "into" a tune until I have the name of it in my head. This is often a problem in Ireland, as a lot of players don't seem to bother remembering titles. I may recognise the actual melody, but struggle to start with until I get the name, then I'm off.
Happened at a session only last Wednesday night.
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Kenny
Re: Memory
Dave
Well, this is a chance for the psychologists among us to come to the rescue! I'm middle-aged, have been playing the fiddle for nearly two years, and have much the same problem. I'm convinced that it is at least partly age-related and it's also the problem of recalling under the slightly more stressful circumstances of a session than in the relaxed atmosphere of your own domestic surroundings.
Clearly, you haven't forgotten the tunes, because they came back to you later. Even after two and a half years there is still a long road to travel in acquiring a fluid technique, and I think that until one's technique is absolutely 100% and automatic the recall problem will be there because part of your brain is thinking (subconsiously perhaps) about technique and this will inhibit memory recall to a certain extent - the old problem of trying to really think about two things at once.
Another thing, at home you practice and play at one speed; at the session the rest of the gang are probably playing 10-20% faster. This is more than enough for your memory recall to throw a wobbly if your technique isn't quite up to it. One way to gradually get up to speed is to try to play along with a recording on your computer but to use one of those software do-hickeys that can alter the speed without altering the pitch of the music. Start at a speed you can manage and over a period of time (weeks perhaps) gradually wind up the speed until you reach session speed.
Chris Reynolds, if you're reading this, your input as an experienced mandolinist would be appreciated.
Memory problems can happen to the best. Last year at Listowel one of Ireland's greatest fiddlers was playing one of his own compositions on stage in a concert when he stopped suddenly at the end of part A, laughed and said "I've forgotten me own b----y tune!" Whereupon he had a quick word with another musician at the side of the stage who presumably hummed it to him, returned to the front of the stage and played the tune again, this time faultlessly. That's how a honed and polished professional dealt with an otherwise awkward situation, he laughed it off.
If all else fails, try that sovereign remedy for all ills - poteen. I guarantee you then won't be aware of any problems!
-m
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Memory
Forgetting tunes that are not memorable, as Michael suggests, seems like a good thing, but what about those tunes you hate that get stuck in your head? Advertising jingles and the like. Aaargh! And they're probably crowding out the stuff you want to know!
Maybe there's some fastidious way of cataloguing that would help -- putting the names on an index card, along with an ABC account of the first four notes of each section, or something like that. But then, you really are putting yourself at the mercy of your session mates. "Sorry, folks, but I'm in the advance stages of senility, and I really must consult my memory crutch before we can continue, do you mind?"
Maybe, Davetnova, you are going the wrong way: instead of cutting back on the Guinness, step up the dosage.
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Memory
What I hate is asking after a tune what it was; then having to slap my head and say "I know that tune!"
Scott
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by srt19170
Re: Memory
Happens to me much too frequently, Scott!
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Andee
Re: Memory
So funny, 'I played it perfectly at home' lmaooo
Anyway, uh, unless you think 29 is also approaching senility, it totally happens to me too (let's not ask mark dejong haha). As a matter of fact, Banish Misfortune slid off my brain like teflon for an embarrassingly long time, while my fiddler grew attached to it immediately. I play it well now & love it, but I'll never forget that feeling of just not getting it. Yeah, it can feel like acute Alzheimers setting in. But sadly I do agree that knowing the title is an instant cure, for better or worse. Like on the Bothy Band's Old Hag You Have Killed Me set, they only list the one tune as a descriptor. I recently learned Morrison's Jig, & had to pull the car off the road when after the umpteen hundredth listen, the last tune in that amazing set is in fact Morrison's. *doh* (if anyone knows the name of the middle tune, I'd be obliged)
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: Memory
One test to see if you really have a tune in your head and fingers is to carry on a conversation with someone while you're playing it.
-m
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Memory
Thaks for the reassurances. Thank god its not just me. I've taken all your comments on board and will continue trying to improve and will continue to try to play with others.
When I first came across this site, not that long ago, I thought - These people are worryung about nuances of style being wrong and I'm happy if I get most of the notes right. But I lurk and hopefully learn. It's a wonderful site and it's nice to see the tunes people actually play being posted rather than working through collections that have twelve good tunes interspersed among a hundred that no-one has played for years and never will.
I'll keep lurking and hopefully I will reach the stage where I can contribute, until then you will no doubt only read whinging cries for reassurance from me.
Dave
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Davetnova
Re: Memory
At a workshop in Listowel last year we were given advice on how to deal with the situation where you're playing a tune you know and then halfway into a part your mind goes blank. The thing to do is to keep on playing, keep those fingers/bow moving, faff the notes but keep the beat and rhythm going. The chances are that the rest of the tune will fall back into place after a couple of bars and no-one will notice. I've seen players do this on a number of occasions in sessions and even on stage.
-m
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by lazyhound
Memory
The more I learn the more I know
The more I know the more I forget
The more I forget the less I know ...
-m
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Memory
All good advice here, eccept maybe for Aiden's posting near the top where it is suggested that you could ask if you could play the tune on you own for a bit. Kind of defeats the piont.
I'm also amazed at the thing about knowing a tune's name helps you remember it. I just don't know how you guys do it. The names of tunes are the only thing I have a real problem remembering. So I just don't bother. Nearly every tune I know comes under that old classic title "The one-eyed stag" (No eye deer)
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
I've heard it said that,"If yoy know the names of all your tunes, then you don't know enough tunes!". Being one of those who does know the names of all my tunes, I thought that was pretty snotty. Somehow, it acts as a memory aid for me. There's a greek word for that--I forget what it is...
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Andee
Re: Memory
Michael ...
Maybe I didn't make the point sufficiently well. But speaking as a player who has a limited repertoire and is struggling to develop the ability to play to a decent standard in public, one of the things I find off-putting is that if I kick off a tune - say The Maid Behind The Bar - immediately for some hot-shot on a loud instrument - say a melodeon - to kick in before I've developed the tune and immediately to play at a pace I find it difficult to keep up with and in a setting which jars with the setting I'm playing. (OK so the example is a bit too specific ... I'm still smarting over that one.)
One of the tacics I've used in the past which has worked for me ... hence the reason I suggested it for others ... is to ask if I could be given the space to play solo the opening tune once round in a set and ask everyone to come in at the first repeat. This has three advanatages. Firstly it allows me to hear my instrument (I play mandolin mostly). Secondly it allows me to play the tune as I've learned without having immediately to accommodate to others' variations. Thirdly it sets the tempo and rhythm for the others so that when they do come in, I can hopefully continuen playing in my own way. The end result - perhaps a little more confidence!
Mandolins are notoriously quiet instruments. Given the opportunity to play with perhaps another string instrument as accompaniment, they can ring out. But they can't compete well with boxes or pipes or even banjos. Yet they have a lovely sound.
I take Michael's point to be that the session is about ensemble playing - mucking in, if you like. But I think the good sessions I've been at embrace the notion of mucking in and the notion of allowing both the virtuoso player and the enthusiastic novice the opportunity on occasion to be allowed room to play solo. The good session will, in fact, spot a player like Dave and give him some space without being asked.
When I grew up in Co Armagh, at family gatherings and other come-all-ye's (the word session wasn't current there then) the rule of thumb was that the nervous singer or player would be given special order and special encouragement and the rule was that everyone's input was equally valued. Some of us may have been more proficient, more experienced, more accomplished, more boisterous. But it was the act of sharing a song or a tune that mattered - it all kep' 'er lit an' pointin' North as my granda would have said.
# Posted on November 12th 2002 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Memory
Aidan
Your unhappy incident with that melodeon player is an all too common example of thoughtlessness on the part of the louder player. I believe this sort of thing has been addressed in another thread somewhere on this site. In my orchestral playing (I'm a cellist) the strings are sometimes told by the conductor that if they can't hear the soloist (often a flautist) then they're playing too loud. Similar advice (or a directive!) from the conductor in pianissimo passages is "if you can't hear the player next to you then you're playing too loud!", or words to that effect. This sort of advice, suitably modified, could be used on occasion in sessions.
The approach you have adopted to your problem is probably as close as you can hope to get to an ideal solution. If it's carried out a few times then perhaps the loud players will get the message.
Also, try not to smile too often at the loud players - it only encourages them!
-m
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Memory
The word for memory aid that Andee was looking for, I think, may be "mnemonic," as in "the title works as a mnemonic device." Only it doesn't, at least not for me. To me, the title is just one more thing to try to remember. "The One-eyed Stag." I like that, and I plan to rename every tune I know accordingly.
Somebody I know who used to sing in a choir told me the conductor's instructions for singers who forget their lyrics: "Just sing the word `watermelon' until you figure out where you were." The idea was to keep your lips and vocal cords moving until your brain reengaged. Presumably, if you know what key you're playing in, you should be able to play some version of the word `watermelon' to fill in any and all memory lapses -- except the one that prevents you from knowing what key a tune even starts in until well after it started!
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Memory
Aiden,
I agree with everything you say. Maybe my point was that you shouldn't have to ask. Session etiquet (Spelling?) dictates that everybody plays the tune to the pace of whoever started it. Macsheoinin has it right, that melodion player needs a good frowning at.
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
Michael ...
The difficulty is that the guy wasn't being in the least rude, just enthusiastic and probably thought he was being helpful!
Still ... he could play! When he struck off a set of slides a few minutes later all was forgiven!
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Memory
I wonder if it's worth considering taking some kind of music sheet along to the session. Before you dismiss this as a way of losing sesh-cred completely, there are ways of lessening the embarassment factor.
You can write out the jist of a dozen or more tunes on one sheet of paper, fold it in half and sit it beside your pint glass!, Who's going to have a problem with that!
Don't forget that the good players are going to know that your'e a beginner anyway and if you know them, and you don't bring along a big stand and reems of paper, they should be fine with it.
It's only the more competitively minded intermediates that you need to worry about (and who cares what they think?).
I have no problem remembering tunes, but I have sometimes taken a list of tune names along to sessions, it's good for remembering the tunes that you only occasionally play and might overlook otherwise. It helps introduce a bigger variety of tunes and styles to the sesssion too (ie. less"not that dam set again...").
Incidentally, I've now got about a dozen tunes all called "reel in D", so I add bits like "with the twiddly bit" or "play sober only" etc
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by Kenn
Re: Memory
I think I've played Reel in D. Is that the one that starts out...wait, I'm wrong, I was thinking of Reel in D!
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Memory
Kenn--I do exactly what you suggested. I have my "list of tunes" with the key and type of tune it is written next to it. The old-timers and advanced players find it very endearing. My favorite old fiddle guy, when there's a lull in the session reaches over to my list and says, "Ahh, Andee--what's on your list? What new tune are you working on?" A great way to get to those tunes you might have otherwise not thought of.
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by Andee
Re: Memory
I remember an old flute player in Ireland showing me his list of tunes hidden away in the bottom of the flute case, for those occasions when he couldn't remember even which tunes he knew. That seemed like good advice, so I have a list of most of the tunes I know (knew...) with the ABCs for the first couple of bars written out. It sits at home in a drawer, but it's comforting to know it's there if I need it.
I can usually remember dozens of tunes (out of many more), but often just not the one I want to play on a particular occasion. Sometimes knowing the name helps, and sometimes it doesn't.
These days, it seems like it's easier for me to try and figure out some distinctive pattern of notes, rhythm or finger movements that identifies each tune, or some core *feeling* about the tune, and work on remembering that, rather than the name. I've been a chronic name-rememberer over the years, and while it's handy for your session mates, I'm starting to think it's not much help when it comes to actually getting the tune under your fingers.
The problem happens when you start to hum or play tunes you've subconciously learned at sessions or from recordings, really like and want to remember. If you're hooked on the name, it's going to be very difficult to get back to that tune, and it might be several weeks or months before it pops back into your head. Better to figure out how to recall some handy phrase or twiddly bit.
Greg
ps. for emily_: the BB Morrison's set is Old Hag You Have Killed Me/Dinny Delany's/The Yellow Wattle/Morrison's, according to my notes on the sleeve, which I would take with a grain of salt.
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by Gzeg
Re: Memory
I think every gets those "I just can't think of a tune to play" moments.
Mine is usually at about three and a half pints. I usually just sit back with a broad grin and wait for some one else to kick off a set. Then by four and a half, I'm fine, and I'll knock together a set of ten or so reels no bother.
It only becomes an issue when no one can think of any tunes. But even then, an extra pint fixes it. I tend to think that if the tune doesn't immediatly present itself at the front of your brain, it's probably not the right tune for that moment anyway.
And Aiden, it doesn't matter how good a player is, rude is still rude
# Posted on November 13th 2002 by llig leahcim
Forgetting things is my Job according to my wife.
She is so right. I usually forget two things off a list of one item.
I think I remember the name of the tune until I can play it - then it doesn't matter anymore. I have the same problem where the first few notes just escape me. Once we are into the tune - I'm on auto pilot.
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Memory
Mark,
try not to get too comfortable with the auto pilot. I know what you mean and sympathise, but auto pilot can mean you play the tune the same each time. Remember your variations
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
I should start by pointing out that I don't know that many tunes - not enough to be very handy in a session yet. But I do find that the more I learn, the less the names either matter or help - especially as some tunes have several names, (and some names have several tunes) and that only confuses matters. I now find, like Greg, that remembering a little identifying phrase is much more helpful. Or sometimes it's a combination of the name and the tune - like 'Merrily Kissed the Quaker', where the last line of each part scans with merrily-kissed-the-quaker, so I can always remember that one. Or 'Maid behind the Bar' - a friend used to sing 'Barmaid, Barmaid, Maid behind the Bar!' at the end of each part. Easily amused, obviously..
Or sometimes there's a kind of picture in the tune, that helps. Like in 'the Ship in Full Sail' the first line sounds like a description of the sails on a tall ship - er, OK, a bit far-fetched but it's proved a useful mnemonic for that tune, I can't forget it now. I remember phone numbers by pictures as well though - my parents' one looks like a pram and my brother's one used to resemble the constellation of Bootes...
There are two kinds of memory problem, I think - one is remembering how the tune goes once you've started it, and the other is bringing it to mind at all. When I first learn a tune (or song) there seems to be a huge black hole in my memory and it's a massive effort to remember the first line - then I'm fine. I think you just have to be patient and wait for it to get into your long-term memory, and then it's just a matter of finding it in amongst all that other stuff you've got in there...
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by Nell
Re: Memory
Practice, Practice, Practice - until it is so firmly embedded in your head that you wont forget.
If someone else starts to speed up then just keep your own pace - sometimes it's a good idea to agree the tune with a really strong player who can keep pace with you and slow the enthusiastic one down a wee bit.
On occasion if someone races off with my tune I stop playing and let them know it's MY set. Rude deserves rude!!
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by breandan
Re: Memory
Stopping playing is a good one. The offending person is usually very embarrassed, which they deserve. But as soon as they stop, you can start again at your pace and said offender will join in at the right speed and they'll be repentant but happy and you'll be happy and there'll be no need for the boring post mortum.
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
To go back to the original question --- Do you think these memory lapses could be attributed to nerves? If you're unaccustomed to playing with other folks, it can be intimidating. My advice --- just play. In both senses of the word. Keep going to sessions, join in when you can, and relax and enjoy the session. Before you know it, you won't be forgetting the tunes any more; it will all seem quite natural.
The whole point is to have fun. I live in Texas, so I often think how amazing it is to have not only fiddles and guitars and flutes, but also penny whistles, hammered dulcimers, bodhrans and even a hurdy gurdy coming out of the woodwork. And when everybody in the room is singing Wild Mountain Thyme: well, music truly is a form of communion.
# Posted on November 16th 2002 by carolsviolin
Re: Memory
I find that tunes will ‘fly’ especially if I know them really well. I think it’s that ‘autopilot’ syndrome. I have particular danger points such as the last time round in the third from last bar of the b music.
I’m amazed how many of us need to have the tune title to be able to recall how the tune goes. I’d have thought that if you know it, you should be able to play it. Is this phenomena because those of us with the problem learnt not by ear but from music notation?
When learning a tune in the early stages, I have to really analyse it and break it down into phrases. I also have to concentrate on the first four notes to get the feel of that particular tune. I have to sing the tune in my head, and think ahead at the same time to feel when I’ll add some ornamentation.
And that elusive fluid technique. I agree with that one. Without it you’re always thinking about HOW your going to play instead HOW you want it to sound and come over.
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by Susie-Lee
Re: Memory
I wonder if there are any actors out there who have problems remembering lines. Perhaps they could help. I'd doubt that remembering lines is easier if you can remember the title of the play, but you never know
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
This is a most interesting discussion. There are any number of us who 'forget' tunes in the heat of public performance. I am an actor and a fiddler whose fingers often 'forget'. Iput the word in quotation marks because, in fact, they do not forget since, in other venues, they remember easily. So what is it?
Consider this. Most human behavior is based on fear. And there a just a few fears that regulate our response. We fear the loss of life. We fear being thought of as a fool. We fear actually being a fool (insane). And we fear speaking (performing) in public. This last is probably the same as being thought a fool. It is this basic fear that prevents us from succeeding... not remembering is a way to avoid being successful, and therefore not having to repeat your success. If we understand that we do not have to be "successful" in order to achieve our goal of just playing but we merely need to play as well as we can at the moment, we will find that our fear of failure and/or success will fade away and our ability to just play will be enhanced. I have much of my life just trying to get out of my own way. And once the experience enters your consciousness, the effect is overwhelming... you begin to play in a space where failure or success is not relevant, and hearing your own fine music is.
Yes, my fingers forget. But I do not take it seriously. I play the tune until they cannot forget and I am without the fear of being thought foolish or stupid. I am caught up in the music and the moment and enjoying with others a new synergy. If you can sing it, you can play it. And it is fun, and through the analysing and singing, the discovery of the essence of a tune is a joy to be shared.
And if this sounds too "out there", try not putting yourself beyond the fear and just enjoying the music. I think you'll find you forget less and less.
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by Sudsy
Re: Memory
Well before Michael can take a crack at the fear comment lol, let me have a go. I think certain personality types are more governed by fear than others. While I have no fear of speaking or playing in public, or of death, or anthrax, or traveling alone, etc etc, I absolutely dread performing mundane tasks such as opening my mail & doing laundry. I think many personality types are driven by love, admiration, hunger, the need to do 'the right thing', etc. but not necessarily fear. I, for one, cannot blame fear for my memory lapses. In the Buddhist tradition (which I am not actually a Buddhist, but anyway, according to my understanding), there are many reasons why a person may fail at meditation, ie the Doubting Mind, the Judging Mind, I think I suffer primarily from the Monkey Mind, where your mind just leaps around, but if anything, for me, public performance centers & crystallizes that tendency & my playing benefits immensely.
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: Memory
I agree with emily that fear is not always the culprit. Also I have to defend myself from the comment that maybe those of us who need the tune name in order to remember and play the tune may have this "problem" because we learned from written music, and not by ear. (I paraphrased) Maybe true for some, but not for me--I learn everything by ear. And it's not really a huge problem for me, either--it's just those few times when--darn! you realize what the tune was by the 3rd time around, and now they're onto the next tune! I just really like tune titles; most often they pop up instantaeously when the tune starts.
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by Andee
Re: Memory
Fear is a very very old instict. We need to grow up
# Posted on November 18th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
Yes, but fear and anxiety are also the basis of social behaviour - fear of exclusion/reprisal/loss of heirarchical position/etc are probably very necessary components of the social instinct that keeps us from doing unacceptable things...
Fear of embarrassment or failure might be a crippling thing, that's definately best dispensed with, in playing music; but it does have an instinctive background which can't be easily junked.
Er, well, that's my theory...
# Posted on November 19th 2002 by Nell
Re: Memory
An underlying fear of embarrassment or failure in performance need not be crippling. Quite the reverse. Most public performers have it, often right through their careers, but they generally overcome it and go out on stage to give a blazing performance. The spark of fear lights the furnace that fires the performance.
Fear in fact shows a healthy respect for the audience, as a result of which the performer wants to give of their very best. I am of the view that a performer who doesn't have this underlying fear doesn't have this basic respect and care for the audience and the result is that the audience won't get 100% of what they should be getting.
In order to be able to overcome stage fear and to utilise its energy to the best advantage it is essential not only to be 100% on top of your playing technique but also to be 100% on top of the tunes you're going to play. It is easy to overlook the second one. A player may have recently learnt a great tune which has gone well in sessions and he's eager to play it solo on stage in his next gig. He shouldn't. It is much better for him to live with the tune and to understand it thoroughly over a period of several months, even a year, and then he will be in a much better position to give a commanding performance at a gig.
More generally, fear is a good instinct and is essential to the survival of the species. If our ancestors didn't have that overriding fear of the predator stalking them then we wouldn't be discussing it now. It still applies now; like they say, there are fearless bikers and old bikers, but no fearless old bikers.
-m
# Posted on November 19th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Memory
Well put, macsheoinin. On the question of stage fright, it certainly does inject some adrenalin into your performance. It can also wreck your performance, though. For a singer, it's particularly problematic, as any shakes or loss of breath control will really show... and I'm speaking from experience here...
It can also deprive the player of any enjoyment in the performance, which is self-defeating, and ends some careers. So there's a question of degree - but I agree with you that fear is instinctively necessary and a natural part of a good performance.
# Posted on November 19th 2002 by Nell
Re: Memory
Hmmmm, performing.
I accept your stuff obout fear of failure in a performance. When I go to a gig I want to know that said performer is giving me their best, and if a bit of fear helps, then fair enough.
But diddling in your local boozer though is another thing. Playing in a session is not a performance. There is no need to be scared
# Posted on November 19th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Memory
Helen,
You're quite right about stage-fright. Perhaps I should have made the point that "fear" on stage runs the whole gamut from "complete lack of" through a frisson of excitement, nervousness, to full-blown stage fright. Neither of the extremes is desirable, either from the audience's or performer's point of view. An audience may not be fully aware of the lower extreme, so the performer gets away with it. He won't get away with it for ever, though. Sooner or later it will be noticed and he'll probably never make it into the premier league.
On the other hand, full-blown stage-fright is a real problem if it results in loss of control which is evident to others, and has resulted in careers being ruined. A performer suffering at this level of stage-fright needs help, which can often be given by a good teacher who is also an experienced performer.
It now occurs to me that the subject of stage fright is a big one which should be a separate thread which I've now started to see what useful input there is from the 4000-odd members of The Session.
-trevor macsheoinin
# Posted on November 20th 2002 by lazyhound