This may be an East Coast / West Coast thing, a male / female thing, or a Euro / Yank thing.
Some people just can't come to the point. They complain about issues with their session, but never take the courage of their convictions one step further and actually try to find a common ground with the people who are "dying on the ascent" or "spreading jam on their olives."
Here's my tip:
If a guy or gal is messing up your session and spoiling the fun for everyone else in the group (and you have consensus opinion on that), isn't it better to ask the person not to come back? Or take the Irish approach of when that person gets up to wee, put someone else in their chair.
If a guy/gal is playing a line that you personally disagree with, but everyone else in the group is fine with, shouldn't you talk to that person face to face rather than venting about him on-line? Would that face to face approach actually work to solve a problem, rather than giving 1000 other similarly "courteous" fellows the excuse to rant in flaming displays of hatred towards all instrumentalists of that ilk and moan and roll on the floor when someone of that class fires back that perhaps other instrumentalists are not without flaw?
I've taken this direct approach with several players, and at least attempted to address issues within my own sesh. Or is sitting around grumbling about the darkness without ever lighting a candle a more acceptable approach among the ITM community?
Your opinions welcome, as I expect they differ from mine.
Only one time have I had to say anything. An out of towner came in and set down his fiddle case AND his electric guitar case. With a small amp. When he opened the case I simply said " You're welcome to play your fiddle, but we don't do electric stuff here.". He just smiled and put it away. Everyone looked kind of embarassed, but most of them thanked me later for being direct. He was a good fiddle player so I never figured what the guitar was supposed to be for.
Mmm, its all a question of where do you draw the line isn't it?
I think now personally I've reached a reasonable standard of playing, and the regular session I go to, I would like to think I enhance the session rather than detract from it.
But if I went to another session who were "better" players than me, then I would have the opposite effect.
But I know exactly what you mean about players spoiling things. The last 2 sessions I,ve played, well, wev'e had new players turn up and ruined the night cos they don't know the tunes and don't know what they're doing.
hrm... To me, it seems also it depends on what type of a session it is. If it is more of a "performing" session, then I think you can use more of your own discretion on who should/shouldn't play in the session, etc.
However, if it is more of a public session, regardless of whether you are a regular or not, it seems that the session should remain open to all, regardless of playing ability. It can be somewhat frustrating dealing with players who aren't up to your level at sessions, no doubt, but to me, one of the biggest ideas of those public sessions is that people can learn from sitting in on the session.
However, that does come with some caveats: First, those people who aren't necessarilly good players coming to the session should be extremely polite, non-intrusive, and like a student, try to listen and learn rather than take center stage. Also, those people should have at least a modicrum of know-how on their instrument, and be able to play tunes to such a degree that they are at a decent tempo for the session, and that others can tell what tune they are playing.
Dunno if that is how others necessarilly see sessions, but to me, one of the best things about public sessions is that melding of different levels of play, the learning that occurs through it, and the social aspect that those who aren't the best players can gain by playing by those whom are better players.
well,it all depends on how much abuse you can withstand at the time.
in an ideal world we would all give and take advice with a cheery smile on our accommodating chops.
but:
i once pointed out -nicely-to a bloke bashing away on a drum that i could n't hear the (one) fiddle who was playing what sounded like a very tasty tune.
after a slight pause i was told that i could go and f!*k myself and swivel on a particular digit.and a few other suggestions in like fashion.
i put it down to his being a short-arsed git who did n't know any better.
Yep, a fella who I'm sure is a very nice man came in and asked if it was an open session. I said it was, and he sat in a chair just outside the circle (even though there were seats available at the table.) I took my seat and he was just behind my chair to the right. He took out a low whistle and put it in his lap. After the session got going I started hearing strange flute-like notes that clashed with my flute and made it sound out of tune. I realized he was... yes... noodling. I think he actually knew a few tunes we played, but most of the time he... *gulp*... noodled. I figured this is why he chose to sit back from the table, but he was right behid my head. I don't think he realized the effect he was having and thought his noodling wouldn't bother anyone... but it bothered the hell out of me and put a damper on the fun.
So... all of you noodling public sessions that aren't "performances" advocates... I ask you -- what should I have done?
We once had a fellow who noodled on a low whistle and sang a couple of songs. I first complimented him on his voice (which was good) and then gently explained that "counterpoint" on the whistle is just not done at a traditional Irish session, which is what we were trying to do. He seemed OK with that explanation.
Before we get into yet another noodling thread, can I recommend googling the term "group dynamics"? There is gold out there - so relevant to assemblages of musicians attempting to pretend that they are members of something that is "open". Try this link: http://www.gmu.edu/student/csl/5stages.html where the stages of Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing and Adjourning are described. I won't spoil it by selective quoting!
I’ve always found with myself that if I allow something I find annoying to carry on with-out comment I become very frustrated and when I finally comment it is in a way that is counter productive. By this I mean that my comments are taken as blatant criticism, as they should, instead of simply voicing my feelings as I am sure my frustration is evident in the tone of my voice and/or the words I chose.
I find candor tempered with compassion is a much better way to navigate my way about the often times tumultuous sea of communication. That said, I am but human (well in the opinion of some adding the prefix “sub” may be more appropriate) and I often fall victim to the “Take my advice, I’m not using it” approach.
Wow, that therapist was right after all, I really do feel better!
You can be polite and direct at the same time. And an immediate moment of direct conversation might be awkward in the short run, but is usually much less painful in the long run.
If a job needs doing, get it done--the only work that disappears if you ignore it is drying dishes!
KC, It's the ages old problem of the bleeding hearts in this wolrd taking the stones from a man and putting them on a mantle for all to observe and admire from a distance. There is something to be said for the polite approach but when that fails it's back to the cromagnon knock 'em down and drag 'em out simplicity. Not always needing to be violent but you get the message. Be blunt with a person who can't take a subtle hint and get on with your session. If they're any kind of real person at all they will listen to reason when explained to them in small words.
A bloke came up to us last week, between tunes, & with a big grin produced a Shakey Egg & asked if he could join us - myself & the Flute player simply, with stern faces, slowly shook our heads ......& he went away.
Now after more drink he did come back, but only right at the end of the night & sat next to us & proceeded to murder a song & then tried to murder a couple of songs two other guys sang, but then it was home time & it added a little cabaret to the end of our night, so we didn't mind.
However, if we'd let him sit down with his egg earlier - our whole night would have been ruined - or he would have ended up hanging from the ceiling!
I'm forthright....generally to a fault. My success ratio is approximately 1.5 in 3. One chap took the chair hint and stormed out never to return. One guy is improving after years of needling about his admitted "fencepost" playing. One guy, whom I quite like as a person still doesn't get hints or directness and I fear he's become a wrecker.
As for my own playing, which I admit has some pretty broad faults, I prefer that old saying "Let all the blood be on the front of you." If you think my playing stinks, I'd rather you told me outright rather than making nice to my face and talking trash behind my back. And to their credit, folks who play wikth me let me know when it works and let me know when it doesn't.
The worst group dynamic cancer I can think of is letting stuff fester.
Directness vs. Courtesy
Directness vs. Courtesy
This may be an East Coast / West Coast thing, a male / female thing, or a Euro / Yank thing.
Some people just can't come to the point. They complain about issues with their session, but never take the courage of their convictions one step further and actually try to find a common ground with the people who are "dying on the ascent" or "spreading jam on their olives."
Here's my tip:
If a guy or gal is messing up your session and spoiling the fun for everyone else in the group (and you have consensus opinion on that), isn't it better to ask the person not to come back? Or take the Irish approach of when that person gets up to wee, put someone else in their chair.
If a guy/gal is playing a line that you personally disagree with, but everyone else in the group is fine with, shouldn't you talk to that person face to face rather than venting about him on-line? Would that face to face approach actually work to solve a problem, rather than giving 1000 other similarly "courteous" fellows the excuse to rant in flaming displays of hatred towards all instrumentalists of that ilk and moan and roll on the floor when someone of that class fires back that perhaps other instrumentalists are not without flaw?
I've taken this direct approach with several players, and at least attempted to address issues within my own sesh. Or is sitting around grumbling about the darkness without ever lighting a candle a more acceptable approach among the ITM community?
Your opinions welcome, as I expect they differ from mine.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by KC Gross
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Assumptions, assumptions...
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Ah, at last. Someone after my own heart
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Only one time have I had to say anything. An out of towner came in and set down his fiddle case AND his electric guitar case. With a small amp. When he opened the case I simply said " You're welcome to play your fiddle, but we don't do electric stuff here.". He just smiled and put it away. Everyone looked kind of embarassed, but most of them thanked me later for being direct. He was a good fiddle player so I never figured what the guitar was supposed to be for.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Farr
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Mmm, its all a question of where do you draw the line isn't it?
I think now personally I've reached a reasonable standard of playing, and the regular session I go to, I would like to think I enhance the session rather than detract from it.
But if I went to another session who were "better" players than me, then I would have the opposite effect.
But I know exactly what you mean about players spoiling things. The last 2 sessions I,ve played, well, wev'e had new players turn up and ruined the night cos they don't know the tunes and don't know what they're doing.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Justintime
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
hrm... To me, it seems also it depends on what type of a session it is. If it is more of a "performing" session, then I think you can use more of your own discretion on who should/shouldn't play in the session, etc.
However, if it is more of a public session, regardless of whether you are a regular or not, it seems that the session should remain open to all, regardless of playing ability. It can be somewhat frustrating dealing with players who aren't up to your level at sessions, no doubt, but to me, one of the biggest ideas of those public sessions is that people can learn from sitting in on the session.
However, that does come with some caveats: First, those people who aren't necessarilly good players coming to the session should be extremely polite, non-intrusive, and like a student, try to listen and learn rather than take center stage. Also, those people should have at least a modicrum of know-how on their instrument, and be able to play tunes to such a degree that they are at a decent tempo for the session, and that others can tell what tune they are playing.
Dunno if that is how others necessarilly see sessions, but to me, one of the best things about public sessions is that melding of different levels of play, the learning that occurs through it, and the social aspect that those who aren't the best players can gain by playing by those whom are better players.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by LeprechaunFiddler
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
well,it all depends on how much abuse you can withstand at the time.
in an ideal world we would all give and take advice with a cheery smile on our accommodating chops.
but:
i once pointed out -nicely-to a bloke bashing away on a drum that i could n't hear the (one) fiddle who was playing what sounded like a very tasty tune.
after a slight pause i was told that i could go and f!*k myself and swivel on a particular digit.and a few other suggestions in like fashion.
i put it down to his being a short-arsed git who did n't know any better.
he speaks highly of me too...
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Yep, a fella who I'm sure is a very nice man came in and asked if it was an open session. I said it was, and he sat in a chair just outside the circle (even though there were seats available at the table.) I took my seat and he was just behind my chair to the right. He took out a low whistle and put it in his lap. After the session got going I started hearing strange flute-like notes that clashed with my flute and made it sound out of tune. I realized he was... yes... noodling. I think he actually knew a few tunes we played, but most of the time he... *gulp*... noodled. I figured this is why he chose to sit back from the table, but he was right behid my head. I don't think he realized the effect he was having and thought his noodling wouldn't bother anyone... but it bothered the hell out of me and put a damper on the fun.
So... all of you noodling public sessions that aren't "performances" advocates... I ask you -- what should I have done?
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
We once had a fellow who noodled on a low whistle and sang a couple of songs. I first complimented him on his voice (which was good) and then gently explained that "counterpoint" on the whistle is just not done at a traditional Irish session, which is what we were trying to do. He seemed OK with that explanation.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by mickray
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
"what should I have done?" Isn't your flute made of good strong ebony? Thwack him and thwack hard, of course!
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Farr
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Before we get into yet another noodling thread, can I recommend googling the term "group dynamics"? There is gold out there - so relevant to assemblages of musicians attempting to pretend that they are members of something that is "open". Try this link: http://www.gmu.edu/student/csl/5stages.html where the stages of Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing and Adjourning are described. I won't spoil it by selective quoting!
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by RichardB
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
I’ve always found with myself that if I allow something I find annoying to carry on with-out comment I become very frustrated and when I finally comment it is in a way that is counter productive. By this I mean that my comments are taken as blatant criticism, as they should, instead of simply voicing my feelings as I am sure my frustration is evident in the tone of my voice and/or the words I chose.
I find candor tempered with compassion is a much better way to navigate my way about the often times tumultuous sea of communication. That said, I am but human (well in the opinion of some adding the prefix “sub” may be more appropriate) and I often fall victim to the “Take my advice, I’m not using it” approach.
Wow, that therapist was right after all, I really do feel better!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
You can be polite and direct at the same time. And an immediate moment of direct conversation might be awkward in the short run, but is usually much less painful in the long run.
If a job needs doing, get it done--the only work that disappears if you ignore it is drying dishes!
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
KC, It's the ages old problem of the bleeding hearts in this wolrd taking the stones from a man and putting them on a mantle for all to observe and admire from a distance. There is something to be said for the polite approach but when that fails it's back to the cromagnon knock 'em down and drag 'em out simplicity. Not always needing to be violent but you get the message. Be blunt with a person who can't take a subtle hint and get on with your session. If they're any kind of real person at all they will listen to reason when explained to them in small words.
# Posted on June 11th 2006 by newfie percussionist
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
Sometimes you can be subtle.
A bloke came up to us last week, between tunes, & with a big grin produced a Shakey Egg & asked if he could join us - myself & the Flute player simply, with stern faces, slowly shook our heads ......& he went away.
Now after more drink he did come back, but only right at the end of the night & sat next to us & proceeded to murder a song & then tried to murder a couple of songs two other guys sang, but then it was home time & it added a little cabaret to the end of our night, so we didn't mind.
However, if we'd let him sit down with his egg earlier - our whole night would have been ruined - or he would have ended up hanging from the ceiling!
# Posted on June 11th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Directness vs. Courtesy
I'm forthright....generally to a fault. My success ratio is approximately 1.5 in 3. One chap took the chair hint and stormed out never to return. One guy is improving after years of needling about his admitted "fencepost" playing. One guy, whom I quite like as a person still doesn't get hints or directness and I fear he's become a wrecker.
As for my own playing, which I admit has some pretty broad faults, I prefer that old saying "Let all the blood be on the front of you." If you think my playing stinks, I'd rather you told me outright rather than making nice to my face and talking trash behind my back. And to their credit, folks who play wikth me let me know when it works and let me know when it doesn't.
The worst group dynamic cancer I can think of is letting stuff fester.
# Posted on June 12th 2006 by KC Gross