as far as I can see there is no reason why I should get golfers elbow and raging tendonitis from playing ITM on a fiddle, but I do. I can play Vivaldi, Corelli and a number of other composers known for nasty movements and positions all day without even a twinge. Yet within 5 minutes of a jig I have shooting pains up my arms, any theories thoughts or opinions?
I think you'll have to be seen "live", or in a good video at least, playing both ITM and Vivladi/Corelli etc., to get an informed opinion.
Do you get the problem with the left or right arm/hand? And is it just jigs you have problems with? Or do you get it with reels and hornpipes as well? Don't forget that Vivaldi et al also wrote fast stuff in 6/8. Do you have problems in playing that?
Make sure that there is good clearance between the elbow of the bowing hand and the wall. When you're into a good jig, like say Michael Gorman's Strayaway Child, you wouldn't notice yourself banging the elbow. Your best bet is taking along an observer with you to the next session who could take notes and confer with you later. It would be better if this observer couldn't care less about ceol traidisiunta.
I hope this helps.
It just occurred to me that this pain you experience comes from the hours you've spent playing that Vivaldi. A kind of delayed reaction. Cut out the Italian stuff and you'll be as right as rain.
Slan go foill.
Mairtin
maybe you are just more comfortable with Vivaldi. Seeings you play him all day. Just relax. Make sure you listen to the likes of Kevin Burke, not Sean Keene
Have you ever heard of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome ?
The nerves that pass through your wrist have to pass thru a very small opening . . sometimes the nerves get trapped and this causes tingling in the fingers and numbness and, sometimes pain which can extend up the arm into the shoulder.
There is a genetic link to this complaint. Luckily there's an operation you can have which will cure the problem. I;ve had both wrists done, anyway, it could be thats what youv'e got.
If you are getting it on your bowing arm, I would suggest looking at the technique of your bowed triplets. They are probably the biggest technique that is heavily laden throughout Irish Music that you won't see (at least not the quick bowed triplet kind) in classical music. I myself had arm and back issues a couple of years back, and I played boht classical and Irish, but the problem cropped up during the summer, when my classical playing was almost non-existent, and my ITM playing went through the roof. When I changed my technique for my bowing in general, but esp. my bowed triplets after doing physical therapy, I have not had a recurrance of my problems since.
It might be because there's a lot of repetition in ITM. With Vivaldi and the like, you could be playing down on the D or G string, and then next thing you know, you're up in twentieth position on the E or something. So that means you move your whole hand about a lot. With ITM, however, nearly everything's in 1st position, so your wrist and hand stay in one place while your fingers do everything. And as you're not used to it yet, it gets tiring.
Maybe. Anyway, that's my theory.
Do you get the pains at home as well ? If you only get them in a session It might be because you are cramped up alongside other players, so your elbows are tucked in and you cannot be as free with the bow as you normally are. Also, most fiddlers seem to play with a lower scroll than classicals, so maybe in a session you are letting your scroll drop and that is making you hunch over. Maybe you are used to playing standing up. Maybe, when you are sitting in a session, you bring the fiddle to a more frontal position so it doesn't interfere with the player next door, so you could be twisting your trunk and left shoulder around to the right.
Maybe when you play classical, you are reading music, so you have the fiddle off to the side a bit, but when playing Irish you are watching the fiddle, so it comes in front, same effect as above.
unfortunately I am still reading tunes, its only in my left arm,not my bowing arm. The best wat to describe it is disjointed. I guess familiarity and phrasing plays a large part as well, when I play ITM I become tense and my fingering becomes somewhat jerky. When playing other types the fingering flows freely. I know its something to do with the way I do thefingering, I also hear many itm players say that there is little fingering with a fiddle for ITM - cant figure that out myself.
I think the answer is straight forward and you know it. It's familiarity. Unfamiliarity promotes tension and this is your problem. Hear tunes, know them, play them from that relaxed bit at the back of your mind, and the muscles will fall into place. Read them and your fingers will never be under their own command.
Based on my own experiences with RSI in my arms I'd suggest it's because of the tenseness. The tension's probably all the way through your arm, maybe all the way up to your shoulder, and that can cause pinched nerves and other nasties.
I have just finished a few sessions with a physio for severe right arm pain when playing guitar.
The reason was bad posture and right shoulder position ( too far forward ) , I was hunched over instead of back straight.
I have varied the way I sit and the way I play so I have a straight back and after a few weeks the change has been great.
I would recommend straightening the back and doing exercises to strengthen it.
the old posture thing again
the old posture thing again
as far as I can see there is no reason why I should get golfers elbow and raging tendonitis from playing ITM on a fiddle, but I do. I can play Vivaldi, Corelli and a number of other composers known for nasty movements and positions all day without even a twinge. Yet within 5 minutes of a jig I have shooting pains up my arms, any theories thoughts or opinions?
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Joze
Re: the old posture thing again
I think you'll have to be seen "live", or in a good video at least, playing both ITM and Vivladi/Corelli etc., to get an informed opinion.
Do you get the problem with the left or right arm/hand? And is it just jigs you have problems with? Or do you get it with reels and hornpipes as well? Don't forget that Vivaldi et al also wrote fast stuff in 6/8. Do you have problems in playing that?
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the old posture thing again
Make sure that there is good clearance between the elbow of the bowing hand and the wall. When you're into a good jig, like say Michael Gorman's Strayaway Child, you wouldn't notice yourself banging the elbow. Your best bet is taking along an observer with you to the next session who could take notes and confer with you later. It would be better if this observer couldn't care less about ceol traidisiunta.
I hope this helps.
It just occurred to me that this pain you experience comes from the hours you've spent playing that Vivaldi. A kind of delayed reaction. Cut out the Italian stuff and you'll be as right as rain.
Slan go foill.
Mairtin
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by frozenstiff
Re: the old posture thing again
maybe you are just more comfortable with Vivaldi. Seeings you play him all day. Just relax. Make sure you listen to the likes of Kevin Burke, not Sean Keene
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by ...
Re: the old posture thing again
... oh, and learn to slur
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by ...
Re: the old posture thing again
Have you ever heard of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome ?
The nerves that pass through your wrist have to pass thru a very small opening . . sometimes the nerves get trapped and this causes tingling in the fingers and numbness and, sometimes pain which can extend up the arm into the shoulder.
There is a genetic link to this complaint. Luckily there's an operation you can have which will cure the problem. I;ve had both wrists done, anyway, it could be thats what youv'e got.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Justintime
Re: the old posture thing again
If you are getting it on your bowing arm, I would suggest looking at the technique of your bowed triplets. They are probably the biggest technique that is heavily laden throughout Irish Music that you won't see (at least not the quick bowed triplet kind) in classical music. I myself had arm and back issues a couple of years back, and I played boht classical and Irish, but the problem cropped up during the summer, when my classical playing was almost non-existent, and my ITM playing went through the roof. When I changed my technique for my bowing in general, but esp. my bowed triplets after doing physical therapy, I have not had a recurrance of my problems since.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by LeprechaunFiddler
Re: the old posture thing again
It might be because there's a lot of repetition in ITM. With Vivaldi and the like, you could be playing down on the D or G string, and then next thing you know, you're up in twentieth position on the E or something. So that means you move your whole hand about a lot. With ITM, however, nearly everything's in 1st position, so your wrist and hand stay in one place while your fingers do everything. And as you're not used to it yet, it gets tiring.
Maybe. Anyway, that's my theory.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: the old posture thing again
Do you get the pains at home as well ? If you only get them in a session It might be because you are cramped up alongside other players, so your elbows are tucked in and you cannot be as free with the bow as you normally are. Also, most fiddlers seem to play with a lower scroll than classicals, so maybe in a session you are letting your scroll drop and that is making you hunch over. Maybe you are used to playing standing up. Maybe, when you are sitting in a session, you bring the fiddle to a more frontal position so it doesn't interfere with the player next door, so you could be twisting your trunk and left shoulder around to the right.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: the old posture thing again
Maybe when you play classical, you are reading music, so you have the fiddle off to the side a bit, but when playing Irish you are watching the fiddle, so it comes in front, same effect as above.
# Posted on June 9th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: the old posture thing again
unfortunately I am still reading tunes, its only in my left arm,not my bowing arm. The best wat to describe it is disjointed. I guess familiarity and phrasing plays a large part as well, when I play ITM I become tense and my fingering becomes somewhat jerky. When playing other types the fingering flows freely. I know its something to do with the way I do thefingering, I also hear many itm players say that there is little fingering with a fiddle for ITM - cant figure that out myself.
# Posted on June 10th 2006 by Joze
Re: the old posture thing again
I think the answer is straight forward and you know it. It's familiarity. Unfamiliarity promotes tension and this is your problem. Hear tunes, know them, play them from that relaxed bit at the back of your mind, and the muscles will fall into place. Read them and your fingers will never be under their own command.
# Posted on June 10th 2006 by ...
Re: the old posture thing again
Based on my own experiences with RSI in my arms I'd suggest it's because of the tenseness. The tension's probably all the way through your arm, maybe all the way up to your shoulder, and that can cause pinched nerves and other nasties.
# Posted on June 12th 2006 by rdi
Re: the old posture thing again
I have just finished a few sessions with a physio for severe right arm pain when playing guitar.
The reason was bad posture and right shoulder position ( too far forward ) , I was hunched over instead of back straight.
I have varied the way I sit and the way I play so I have a straight back and after a few weeks the change has been great.
I would recommend straightening the back and doing exercises to strengthen it.
# Posted on June 13th 2006 by humph