Hi, everyone. I was just checking out the new link, The Roots Music Listening Room. Under the ITM section, track # M33001, Micheal Coleman playing the set dance, The Blackbird.
I am familiar with the tune, but Michael's playing, at times seems just "off" of the melody I am familiar with, but not enough to be an alternate melody altogether. Since I can be pretty sure he's not plaing "out of tune", can I assume those are examples of microtonal notes?
As a beginning fiddler, I appreciate all enlightenment of the subject! Thanks.
If you look at the piano keyboard, or the frets on a guitar or banjo, you'll see that there are 12 semitones in an octave. This is represents a very crude and approximate solution to an intractable intonation problem which has bedevilled music for hundreds of years. Many books have been written on the subject - have a look at Helmhotz's "Sensations of Tone", available in the Dover edition I believe, but it's heavy going.
I read somewhere that great solo violinists play "out of tune" 70% of the time. This reflects their perception of the intonation of the work they're playing. And a player's intonation is often quite characteristic of that player. For example, Yehudi Menuhin's intonation was different to that of Heifetz's. There's hope for us mortals yet!
A good fiddle player, classical violinist, cellist etc will, if they're playing on their own, make a distinction between E-flat and D-sharp (the E-flat is slightly flatter than the D-sharp). A good player will also distinguish between the B played in the key of G to that played in the key of A (the B in the key of G is flatter than the B in the key of A).
Many music genres throughout the world use microtones as a matter of course - quarter tones (half a semitone), or even smaller intervals, are to be found all over the place. Arabic, Jewish, and Eastern European folk music are just a few examples. I believe Tommy Peoples on one of his CDs - I don't have the reference to hand - uses a quarter tone or two on one of the tracks. I understand that some ITM players (and some Swedish players) deliberately play a note pitched half-way between C-natural and C-sharp. This is clearly a source of transcription "errors" - I don't think the ABC notation can cope with this one (yet).
Quite a number of modern classical composers write works in quarter tones. I have a recording of quarter and sixth tone string quartets composed by the 20th century Czech composer Haba (I don't think it is any longer generally available). Listening to it the first time is a weird sensation, but the ear (brain?) soon adapts and it can sound quite natural.
So I think there is a likelihood that Micheal Coleman's intonation was deliberate. If it wasn't, and was a mistake, don't forget that in those far-off days of 78's, recordings were produced "as is", warts and all. They didn't have the sound editing facilities we have today, and time and expense would probably have precluded second takes.
I've only scratched the surface of a very complex and absorning area of music, so over to others for more input!
I totally hear what you're saying Michael, but I have heard that microtones have been legitimately used because that's the way the tune has been handed down from person to person. It is a topic that I'd like to learn more about. If you listen to the track I mentioned, it just seems too deliberate and all pervasive throughout the entire tune, to be merely a mistake.
Don't worry, though, I'm not about to imitate it--I've got enough of a challenge on my hands to play this stuff without microtones!
Michael, quite true. I couldn't agree more. However, if a fiddle player in the recording studio today plays a note that is noticeably out of tune then I would expect that a correction would be made before the cd is released. As I said, this wasn't really possible in the days of the 78. What happens, of course, live on stage or in a session is nobody's business!
A further point about intonation occurs to me. I believe that, on a stringed instrument, intonation and tonal quality go hand-in-hand because if you play the fiddle well in tune the harmonics of the instrument and the open strings will resonate and enhance the tone of the note you're playing. If a beginner on the fiddle is unfortunate enough never to have had experience of playing with a group of musicians but whose sole experience is being accompanied by the piano, then that player will probably find it difficult to achieve a good tone quality, basically because the player unconsciously adopts the intonation of the piano and cannot produce notes accurately enough in tune to utilise the harmonics of the violin to the full. I have come across one or two players in that situation and they found the business of trying to forget piano intonation in subsequent non-piano playing environments quite difficult. Moral: try not to use a piano too much with a beginner on the violin until the player has developed good intonation control, which comes by careful listening and advice from an experienced teacher.
In my orchestral experience conductors usually aren't too much bothered by occasional wrong notes in difficult high passages, provided the players follow the baton and get the rhythm right. Poor rhythm is far less acceptable to an audience than occasional lapses in intonation.
I've suspected for a while that Coleman and his contemporaries never really played out of tune, but that the recording equipment used was not up to the task. (with all due given to older scale systems that macsheoin mentions)
Here's poor Michael Coleman forced to play as loudly as he could into a huge phonograph while somebody was hand turning a crank as evenly as possible. All the while some damn studio piano player in the background banging away (Colemand hated the piano on his recordings). Is there any wonder that an off-note appears here and there? Seems to me that entire recordings of Coleman are tuned a quarter-step up than where they should be. In fact, Kevin Burke's Sweeney's Dream seems to purposly tweak the tracks up a fraction of tone to give it a more old-style feel.
I've listened to Sweeney's Dream a lot and noticed that if you normalize the recordings (bring them back to regular pitch and slow it down a bit), you can hear he's dead on on every note. I suspect the same is true for old Coleman as well.
What's with those pianos on those old recordings, anyway? Was it just because piano was popular back in the day? I've heard that many of the studio pianists were not even familiar with Irish music, and often played chords that were just plain wrong.
I have a great CD, Milestone at the Garden, Irish Fiddle Masters of the 78 RPM Era. But unfortunately the piano is present on lots of the tracks.
This doesn't really apply to Michael Coleman, but I think it's a neat point. There are what I call "trick notes" (popular in Clare music) where in a major scale or mixolydian mode the third degree of the scale is slightly flatted. In other words the F# in the key of D is somewhere between F# & Fnatural.
Andee, I just listened to that Blackbird on that site & I think it's pure stink-o. The saving grace is that "Dr Gilbert's & the Queen of May" are there & they are examples of Coleman playing with Paul Standeven a good pianist & a great piper as well. Too often Coleman was stuck with a studio pianist who knew little about Irish music & cared even less. It ruined a lot of good music. But there are the examples with Standeven & "Whitey" Andrews that shine like diamonds. Don't cast off something because the player isn't perfectly tune or the recording isn't pristine. There's a lot to be learned from those old funky players - sometimes allowances need to be made.
That's probably right about the old recording stuff. I didn't know it was hand cranked, blimey. And it is right about Michael Coleman's pianists. The way it worked was thge pianist had a contract to accompany so many people in a day. Most of these were popular singers who would turn up to the recording session with their music. Then in comes por old michael, and the out of depth pianist just vamps a long with any old chords. I've got a double CD of everything Coleman ever recorded and the vast majority is just dreadful.
However. There are the odd "funny notes" out there, usually eminating from instruments other than fiddles. There's a note from the Irish pipes for instance that is slightly sharp of an Eflat that comes when you only cover higher of the bottom two holes. When you play with pipers, you have no choice but to play this note with them
Not all microtones are unintentional, or the result of different systems of intonation. It is common, here in Ontario, Canada for fiddlers, especially those who picked up the tradition from other old-timers, to play the G note on the E-string a little sharp when playing in the key of D. The G note on the D string is played in tune, but the 'high G' is typically played a little sharp. I suspect that this is because the sharp G puts a little more drive in the tune. For those not accustomed to it, the sharp G can be a little grating, but it does add drive to the tune.
The same thing is also true for the C note on the A string, when playing in the key of G. It is played a little sharp by the majority of old time fiddlers, here.
Both are examples of microtonal intonation, I believe.
Brad,
I've listened to Coleman's "The Blackbird" on Roots Music Listening Room (many thanks Andee) and wow! that pianist just didn't seem to know what he was doing. I downloaded the mp3 file, converted it to wav format and experimented with Cooledit's frequency filtering function. I filtered out all frequencies below 400Hz (and I mean all) and the result is that Coleman's playing is a lot clearer and brighter, the piano being almost inaudible. The piano is still there but I think you can fairly easily ignore it and its bass thump has gone. I tried cutoffs at higher frequencies, such as 500Hz. That certainly gets rid of the piano but distorts the fiddle sound - you're not getting the fundamental frequencies of all the fiddle notes. The higher the cutoff the worse the distortion gets until all you're hearing are the harmonics of the sounds the fiddle is making. A cutoff much below 400 doesn't reduce the piano enough (to my ear), so I've concluded the 400Hz is probably about right for the cutoff.
microtones on the pipes.
nothing is ever exactly in tune. its somtimes about compromises with tone etc...
to get an instrument EXACTLY in tune requires the perfect dimentions of an instrument.....ever seen the "perfect" size double bass? It was made as a physics acoustics experiment.its so big you couldnt ever play it. yeah.physics.gets you depressed if you think about it too much!
There is no such thing as exactly in tune any way. The "well tempered scale" is just an invention for our western ears. When it comes down to it, "in tune" is a matter of opinion.
And even though I know the above statement to be true, I still wince when I hear something "out of tune". Music eh!
Lots of people sing very precisely in tune, and it is a joy to hear them, including the plumber on our construction site.
BTW, I had a listen to the recording of the Blackbird. It is the first time that I have ever heard Micheal Coleman. He must have been very influential, because a lot of fiddlers here play an identical style, with the crunchy bows, enunciating every note. Had I not known that the recording was made by Micheal Colemen, , I would have concluded that the recording had been made by a French-Canadian fiddler. Personally, I like the crunchy playing, as do a lot of others around here.
I don't think that he was using distinguishable microtones, but, rather was simply suffering from a bout of questionable intonation, weak tone and shaky timing. He did get some nice ornaments in there...
In view of the interest in Micheal Coleman's recording of The Blackbird I have today posted the O'Neill version on this site in the Tunes section. Note for note it's not all that different from MC's version, but of course doesn't have all his ornamentation.
I've listened to MC's The Blackbird and his Dr Gilbert/Queen of the May reels, slowing both down without altering the pitch so as to get a fair comparison. I agree with scotty, MC must have had an off day when he recorded The Blackbird - his intonation on the Dr Gilbert track is much more secure. Having said that, there are a few "off" notes in Dr Gilbert, but not many and they are only obvious at the slow speed. This merely illustrates the fact known to all fiddlers/violinists that accurate finger placement 100% of the time is virtually impossible when playing at high speed. These inaccuracies are usually not noticeable unless they are wildly off pitch, which is rare, but not unknown, with players of MC's calibre. Another thing to be aware of, is that accuracy of finger placement tends to deteriorate with advancing years - there's no hope for me now - although bowing and tone seem to be less affected in this respect.
Scottythe fiddler, what do you mean by "crunchy" bows? Also--is there ever a time (or fiddle style) when you would not want to enunciate every note clearly? Just curious--much of this fiddle talk is very new to me and I am still learning...
Grace notes are what they say they are. Although still being very much part of the tune, grace notes kind of tickle arround the notes that would otherwize be called the melody (I stress that it's all melody). We are now firmly in the relms of what can't be written down in ABC, dots or any other form of notation. This is where you've just got to use your ears.
The classic 5 note roll is a good example. Slowing it down and analysing its content probably won't get you any where. It actually sound more like 3 notes, more like you'd play it on a banjo. And the notes themselves are not audible, it's the passing of the note that matters. I'm sure all this has been covered before
michael
I have heard that, according to physiologists, the fastest speed at which individual notes can be perceived by the brain is about 18 notes per second. Faster than that and the individual notes cannot be heard and they all blur together. If this theory is applied to a 5-note roll done at sufficiently high speed then presumably what you "hear" would be a percussive splurge of sound. Is this a reasonable supposition?
It seems that lots of the older Donegal fiddle players would use microtones and 'blue notes' regularly for embellishing tunes. Also in the younger generations, Paul O'Shaughnessy and Dermot McLaughlin sometimes do, and Aidan O'Donnell from Dunkineely uses microtones all the time as a sort of spontaneous ornamentation.
Some of the old unusual versions of tunes nearly have microtones 'built-in' - for example if you listen to some of Francie Dearg's versions.
For me, it adds a spark and a life to the tune which is quite unique. And a slight sense of danger, too..which is always good!
Microtones on the fiddle
Microtones on the fiddle
Hi, everyone. I was just checking out the new link, The Roots Music Listening Room. Under the ITM section, track # M33001, Micheal Coleman playing the set dance, The Blackbird.
I am familiar with the tune, but Michael's playing, at times seems just "off" of the melody I am familiar with, but not enough to be an alternate melody altogether. Since I can be pretty sure he's not plaing "out of tune", can I assume those are examples of microtonal notes?
As a beginning fiddler, I appreciate all enlightenment of the subject! Thanks.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by Andee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
If you look at the piano keyboard, or the frets on a guitar or banjo, you'll see that there are 12 semitones in an octave. This is represents a very crude and approximate solution to an intractable intonation problem which has bedevilled music for hundreds of years. Many books have been written on the subject - have a look at Helmhotz's "Sensations of Tone", available in the Dover edition I believe, but it's heavy going.
I read somewhere that great solo violinists play "out of tune" 70% of the time. This reflects their perception of the intonation of the work they're playing. And a player's intonation is often quite characteristic of that player. For example, Yehudi Menuhin's intonation was different to that of Heifetz's. There's hope for us mortals yet!
A good fiddle player, classical violinist, cellist etc will, if they're playing on their own, make a distinction between E-flat and D-sharp (the E-flat is slightly flatter than the D-sharp). A good player will also distinguish between the B played in the key of G to that played in the key of A (the B in the key of G is flatter than the B in the key of A).
Many music genres throughout the world use microtones as a matter of course - quarter tones (half a semitone), or even smaller intervals, are to be found all over the place. Arabic, Jewish, and Eastern European folk music are just a few examples. I believe Tommy Peoples on one of his CDs - I don't have the reference to hand - uses a quarter tone or two on one of the tracks. I understand that some ITM players (and some Swedish players) deliberately play a note pitched half-way between C-natural and C-sharp. This is clearly a source of transcription "errors" - I don't think the ABC notation can cope with this one (yet).
Quite a number of modern classical composers write works in quarter tones. I have a recording of quarter and sixth tone string quartets composed by the 20th century Czech composer Haba (I don't think it is any longer generally available). Listening to it the first time is a weird sensation, but the ear (brain?) soon adapts and it can sound quite natural.
So I think there is a likelihood that Micheal Coleman's intonation was deliberate. If it wasn't, and was a mistake, don't forget that in those far-off days of 78's, recordings were produced "as is", warts and all. They didn't have the sound editing facilities we have today, and time and expense would probably have precluded second takes.
I've only scratched the surface of a very complex and absorning area of music, so over to others for more input!
m
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Don't be too romantic about this. Michael Coleman and Tommy peoples play out of tune sometimes. Andee, don't try to copy it just cause it sounds trad
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by ...
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
I totally hear what you're saying Michael, but I have heard that microtones have been legitimately used because that's the way the tune has been handed down from person to person. It is a topic that I'd like to learn more about. If you listen to the track I mentioned, it just seems too deliberate and all pervasive throughout the entire tune, to be merely a mistake.
Don't worry, though, I'm not about to imitate it--I've got enough of a challenge on my hands to play this stuff without microtones!
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Andee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Michael, quite true. I couldn't agree more. However, if a fiddle player in the recording studio today plays a note that is noticeably out of tune then I would expect that a correction would be made before the cd is released. As I said, this wasn't really possible in the days of the 78. What happens, of course, live on stage or in a session is nobody's business!
A further point about intonation occurs to me. I believe that, on a stringed instrument, intonation and tonal quality go hand-in-hand because if you play the fiddle well in tune the harmonics of the instrument and the open strings will resonate and enhance the tone of the note you're playing. If a beginner on the fiddle is unfortunate enough never to have had experience of playing with a group of musicians but whose sole experience is being accompanied by the piano, then that player will probably find it difficult to achieve a good tone quality, basically because the player unconsciously adopts the intonation of the piano and cannot produce notes accurately enough in tune to utilise the harmonics of the violin to the full. I have come across one or two players in that situation and they found the business of trying to forget piano intonation in subsequent non-piano playing environments quite difficult. Moral: try not to use a piano too much with a beginner on the violin until the player has developed good intonation control, which comes by careful listening and advice from an experienced teacher.
In my orchestral experience conductors usually aren't too much bothered by occasional wrong notes in difficult high passages, provided the players follow the baton and get the rhythm right. Poor rhythm is far less acceptable to an audience than occasional lapses in intonation.
m
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
I've suspected for a while that Coleman and his contemporaries never really played out of tune, but that the recording equipment used was not up to the task. (with all due given to older scale systems that macsheoin mentions)
Here's poor Michael Coleman forced to play as loudly as he could into a huge phonograph while somebody was hand turning a crank as evenly as possible. All the while some damn studio piano player in the background banging away (Colemand hated the piano on his recordings). Is there any wonder that an off-note appears here and there? Seems to me that entire recordings of Coleman are tuned a quarter-step up than where they should be. In fact, Kevin Burke's Sweeney's Dream seems to purposly tweak the tracks up a fraction of tone to give it a more old-style feel.
I've listened to Sweeney's Dream a lot and noticed that if you normalize the recordings (bring them back to regular pitch and slow it down a bit), you can hear he's dead on on every note. I suspect the same is true for old Coleman as well.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
What's with those pianos on those old recordings, anyway? Was it just because piano was popular back in the day? I've heard that many of the studio pianists were not even familiar with Irish music, and often played chords that were just plain wrong.
I have a great CD, Milestone at the Garden, Irish Fiddle Masters of the 78 RPM Era. But unfortunately the piano is present on lots of the tracks.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Andee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
This doesn't really apply to Michael Coleman, but I think it's a neat point. There are what I call "trick notes" (popular in Clare music) where in a major scale or mixolydian mode the third degree of the scale is slightly flatted. In other words the F# in the key of D is somewhere between F# & Fnatural.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Andee, I just listened to that Blackbird on that site & I think it's pure stink-o. The saving grace is that "Dr Gilbert's & the Queen of May" are there & they are examples of Coleman playing with Paul Standeven a good pianist & a great piper as well. Too often Coleman was stuck with a studio pianist who knew little about Irish music & cared even less. It ruined a lot of good music. But there are the examples with Standeven & "Whitey" Andrews that shine like diamonds. Don't cast off something because the player isn't perfectly tune or the recording isn't pristine. There's a lot to be learned from those old funky players - sometimes allowances need to be made.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Andee, see http://www.standingstones.com/itm2000.html and the entry for 1909.
Zina
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
micro tones on the pipes......??
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by dexter
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
>micro tones on the pipes......??
I Thought that was all they were capable of playing, surely they aren't possibly ever played in perfect tune ;o)
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
That's probably right about the old recording stuff. I didn't know it was hand cranked, blimey. And it is right about Michael Coleman's pianists. The way it worked was thge pianist had a contract to accompany so many people in a day. Most of these were popular singers who would turn up to the recording session with their music. Then in comes por old michael, and the out of depth pianist just vamps a long with any old chords. I've got a double CD of everything Coleman ever recorded and the vast majority is just dreadful.
However. There are the odd "funny notes" out there, usually eminating from instruments other than fiddles. There's a note from the Irish pipes for instance that is slightly sharp of an Eflat that comes when you only cover higher of the bottom two holes. When you play with pipers, you have no choice but to play this note with them
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by ...
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Not all microtones are unintentional, or the result of different systems of intonation. It is common, here in Ontario, Canada for fiddlers, especially those who picked up the tradition from other old-timers, to play the G note on the E-string a little sharp when playing in the key of D. The G note on the D string is played in tune, but the 'high G' is typically played a little sharp. I suspect that this is because the sharp G puts a little more drive in the tune. For those not accustomed to it, the sharp G can be a little grating, but it does add drive to the tune.
The same thing is also true for the C note on the A string, when playing in the key of G. It is played a little sharp by the majority of old time fiddlers, here.
Both are examples of microtonal intonation, I believe.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Hey Zina, cool website you directed me to!
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Andee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Brad,
I've listened to Coleman's "The Blackbird" on Roots Music Listening Room (many thanks Andee) and wow! that pianist just didn't seem to know what he was doing. I downloaded the mp3 file, converted it to wav format and experimented with Cooledit's frequency filtering function. I filtered out all frequencies below 400Hz (and I mean all) and the result is that Coleman's playing is a lot clearer and brighter, the piano being almost inaudible. The piano is still there but I think you can fairly easily ignore it and its bass thump has gone. I tried cutoffs at higher frequencies, such as 500Hz. That certainly gets rid of the piano but distorts the fiddle sound - you're not getting the fundamental frequencies of all the fiddle notes. The higher the cutoff the worse the distortion gets until all you're hearing are the harmonics of the sounds the fiddle is making. A cutoff much below 400 doesn't reduce the piano enough (to my ear), so I've concluded the 400Hz is probably about right for the cutoff.
m
# Posted on October 30th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
microtones on the pipes.
nothing is ever exactly in tune. its somtimes about compromises with tone etc...
to get an instrument EXACTLY in tune requires the perfect dimentions of an instrument.....ever seen the "perfect" size double bass? It was made as a physics acoustics experiment.its so big you couldnt ever play it. yeah.physics.gets you depressed if you think about it too much!
# Posted on November 1st 2002 by dexter
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
There is no such thing as exactly in tune any way. The "well tempered scale" is just an invention for our western ears. When it comes down to it, "in tune" is a matter of opinion.
And even though I know the above statement to be true, I still wince when I hear something "out of tune". Music eh!
# Posted on November 3rd 2002 by ...
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Lots of people sing very precisely in tune, and it is a joy to hear them, including the plumber on our construction site.
BTW, I had a listen to the recording of the Blackbird. It is the first time that I have ever heard Micheal Coleman. He must have been very influential, because a lot of fiddlers here play an identical style, with the crunchy bows, enunciating every note. Had I not known that the recording was made by Micheal Colemen, , I would have concluded that the recording had been made by a French-Canadian fiddler. Personally, I like the crunchy playing, as do a lot of others around here.
I don't think that he was using distinguishable microtones, but, rather was simply suffering from a bout of questionable intonation, weak tone and shaky timing. He did get some nice ornaments in there...
# Posted on November 3rd 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
In view of the interest in Micheal Coleman's recording of The Blackbird I have today posted the O'Neill version on this site in the Tunes section. Note for note it's not all that different from MC's version, but of course doesn't have all his ornamentation.
- although bowing and tone seem to be less affected in this respect.
I've listened to MC's The Blackbird and his Dr Gilbert/Queen of the May reels, slowing both down without altering the pitch so as to get a fair comparison. I agree with scotty, MC must have had an off day when he recorded The Blackbird - his intonation on the Dr Gilbert track is much more secure. Having said that, there are a few "off" notes in Dr Gilbert, but not many and they are only obvious at the slow speed. This merely illustrates the fact known to all fiddlers/violinists that accurate finger placement 100% of the time is virtually impossible when playing at high speed. These inaccuracies are usually not noticeable unless they are wildly off pitch, which is rare, but not unknown, with players of MC's calibre. Another thing to be aware of, is that accuracy of finger placement tends to deteriorate with advancing years - there's no hope for me now
-m
# Posted on November 3rd 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Scottythe fiddler, what do you mean by "crunchy" bows? Also--is there ever a time (or fiddle style) when you would not want to enunciate every note clearly? Just curious--much of this fiddle talk is very new to me and I am still learning...
# Posted on November 3rd 2002 by Andee
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
Grace notes are what they say they are. Although still being very much part of the tune, grace notes kind of tickle arround the notes that would otherwize be called the melody (I stress that it's all melody). We are now firmly in the relms of what can't be written down in ABC, dots or any other form of notation. This is where you've just got to use your ears.
The classic 5 note roll is a good example. Slowing it down and analysing its content probably won't get you any where. It actually sound more like 3 notes, more like you'd play it on a banjo. And the notes themselves are not audible, it's the passing of the note that matters. I'm sure all this has been covered before
# Posted on November 3rd 2002 by ...
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
michael
I have heard that, according to physiologists, the fastest speed at which individual notes can be perceived by the brain is about 18 notes per second. Faster than that and the individual notes cannot be heard and they all blur together. If this theory is applied to a 5-note roll done at sufficiently high speed then presumably what you "hear" would be a percussive splurge of sound. Is this a reasonable supposition?
-m
# Posted on November 4th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
I reckon so, if done right, you should only hear three notes in a roll, or rather three "events" . Can't really call them notes as such
# Posted on November 4th 2002 by ...
Re: Microtones on the fiddle
It seems that lots of the older Donegal fiddle players would use microtones and 'blue notes' regularly for embellishing tunes. Also in the younger generations, Paul O'Shaughnessy and Dermot McLaughlin sometimes do, and Aidan O'Donnell from Dunkineely uses microtones all the time as a sort of spontaneous ornamentation.
Some of the old unusual versions of tunes nearly have microtones 'built-in' - for example if you listen to some of Francie Dearg's versions.
For me, it adds a spark and a life to the tune which is quite unique. And a slight sense of danger, too..which is always good!
Lizzy
# Posted on January 12th 2007 by Lizzy