About 8 years ago I gave up playing classical flute (playing it was one of these things my parents make me do), and I'm now thinking of restarting the instrument, but in a trad sense. So, if anyone can advise on any of the following topics it'd be really useful.
Firstly, I still have my silver (boehm) system flute, so I was wondering if my best move would be to re-learn on that or acquire a simple system (wooden/polymer) flute? If I follow the old flute path, how easy is it to pick up a keyed wooden flute and play it....do the keys on a silver flute equate to the keys on a wooden flute? Also, how much more simple is the fingering for a simple system flute (as I'm gonna be using it to teach tunes alot I don't need to be fast, but I'd need to be able to play reels at about 1/2 speed by christmas)?
If I buy a polymer flute, who makes good ones, should I start on a keyless and have keys added when I can play it keyless, single piece or 3 piece, tunable/non-tuneable (bearing in mind I won't be playing it out for a year or so)?? And being an impoverised student means money is a major factor (so I won't be getting a keyed Grinter....even if anyone suggests it!!) so suggesting how much I'd expect to pay would be really useful too.
Well I find it really hard to play folk tunes on my flute (boehm), even though I'm a fairly proficient player in classical music terms. I don't know what it is about them, they just never seem to go right and they always sound really....messy.
Anyhoo, I find tunes alot easier to play on the whistle, and since you want to be using your flute to teach, a simple flute gives an easily seeable fingering, as there aren't any thumb holes or anything. Plus it makes it easier if you're teaching whistle players aswell.
Downsides....well, if you small hands (like me) playing a D flute with the joints of your fingers when you've been trianed to use the pads is really annoying. Also, if you have a tune that has a lot of accidentals or chromatic runs then that's also really annoying.
You could learn to play the Boehm system flute - I've heard a lot of really good Irish music played on the 'silver typewriter'. I don't like the 'clickiness' of it myself if I play fast music on it. Most people who play keyed simple-system flutes don't seem to use the keys a whole lot, so personally I'd go for an unkeyed one. But you won't get much change out of £500 for a new one from a decent maker. However, if it's good it will increase in price/value, so you can always sell it or exchange it in the future.
I don't like the idea of a polymer flute. I'm sure they are good, but I can't imagine loving a plastic flute, and I think you need to love your instrument to get the best out of it.
But then I'm probably a bit odd.
Curiously, the 8 keyed flute is the same fingering as the oboe (which I used to play a loooong time ago) and not much related to the Boehm flute.
I've switched from an 8 keyed to a keyless (Martin Doyle) and don't miss the keys much (other than the C natural which I used to use a lot) and the F which I used occassionally.
I got the Doyle for £350. It has a big sound and speaks nicely. I've never tried polymer but agree with Ottery.
I used to play a lot with a guy who uses a silver flute. What I found was that it sounded really good when I was accompanying him on bouzouki, but I didn't like the two flutes together so much. Mainly because of the different ornamentation he had to do, but partly the sound.
Yeh, that's another thing. You can't do slides on a key'd flute, well, not properly anyway, because you have to bend the note with your mouth and at the same time and change the note slowly...sort of....ack, I'm talking rubbish now.
I think playing slow airs on a silver flute sounds quite lovely and very full, compared to a wooden flute. However, I would counsel against using the silver flute for dance tunes. It's hard to get the reedy sound preferred in trad, and the ornamentation gets weird. You'll be happier in the long run if you go to a wooden flute. Forget plastic flutes; just dig down and fork out what you need to for a good wooden flute and have done. You don't need an 8-key; just get a really good simple-system flute. I recommend Casey Burns'. They have a punchy sound and good intonation.
Woosh - amazing xchange rate just now means a Casey Burns is pretty good value, although these http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/fluteframeuk.htm (scroll down a bit) look interesting. HAs anyone played a Glenluce from Hobgoblin?
andy, in certain respects people who play or have played the boehm/classical flute are ahead in certain respects and behind in other. i think you should make a priority to get a real irish blackwood flute. and don't mess around: get a keyless olwell which will take about a year. or a hammy hamilton.
there will be an adjustment period getting to play an irish flute an the irish style. i have observed that those who have played boehm beforehand have a kind of smooth and timid tone and phrasing. to each his own. but irish flute style flute playing tends to be more aggressive (although again, there are still some stylistic choices here).
a keyless olwell will run you about $1500 (not that much in the schemem of instument buying, and it is a world class instument, but still alot of money of course). i agree with ailin, that, although it would be nice, you don't need a keyed flute right now. get the best unkeyed you can get your hands on.
Re, the Glenluce (cheap pakistan-made) flutes - you get what you pay for. They've been mentioned on here, and other forums, many times, and rarely in a good light.
This is a helpful resource:
www.firescribble.net/flute
Basically, some of the fingerings are identical to Boehm flute, some are similar, some are totally different. I switched from Boehm flute to a six-keyed wood flute (because I still use it some situations where I need chromaticism), but a keyless is quite adequate for most Irish traditional music. Getting used to a keyless (coming from a Boehm flute) doesn't take long; getting really proficient with the keys on a simple system flute does take a long time.
Don't discount plastic flutes! I have an M & E and I think it's great. Even experienced Irish musicians think it's wood - based on the sound and not just the looks - until you tell them otherwise. I have frequent access to a friend's Murray (like, on a daily basis) and for my purposes (heavy session use) the M & E does just as well. (I am not saying the M & E is a better flute, BUT can a beginner or beginner/intermediate player get $700 more value out of the Murray? I think not.)
If/when you do get a wooden flute, the M & E is a fantastic backup, warmup, camping, busking, utility flute.
No, plastic is not as cozy or as pretty as wood. But in terms of playability it is as good or better than many "real" wooden flutes out there. The only real functional drawback is that it feels heavier then wood, but not drastically so.
Andy, I live in Durham. I have an M&E you could have a blow on, if you want to try it. I can also discuss the silver flute/wooden flute issue with you - I did the 'conversion' to wooden flute myself several years ago. If you want to come over to Durham (on a session night maybe??) send me an email.
Andy_newcastle, I'd absolutely second all that wormdiet said. I'd also recommend you read a gret bunch of sound advice from M&E Website: http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/index.htm
These sections will answer most of the questions you may have.
The M&E polymers are great flutes, reliable and playable under most adverse conditions. Of course, there are junkie plastic flutes out there, as well as great deal of wooden ones of the same quality, but both M&E and Seery are great exponents of the finest craftmanship that speaks (or plays) for itself.
Ottery, let me assure you of my own experience. It IS possible to love a plastic flute.
Very different sounds. Fingering on the wooden flute is more logical and same as the whistle. (But then I never learnt the silver flute). Lilias Kinsman Blake plays a silver flute, but other people seem tp prefer the wooden version. But it's not cheap to get a decent one. There are plenty of great players around the north east to listen to and ask. have you heard Thomas McElvogue or Norman Holmes? (among others)
Barfly, I'm sure you're right, it's just a personal prejudice. Personally I believe that if you fall in love, you must at least THINK it's going to last forever. I can't imagine a plastic flute as anything other than a stepping stone to getting the real thing, or as a 'spare' to take places you wouldn't take the 'real' one. So I can't imagine having that level of commitment to a delrin flute. I'm not sure that a plastic flute and I could go 'all the way'
Understanding playing as constantly searching for new sounds, colours and ways of expression, one might never stop experimenting, wheteher it is moving from plastic to wood, from silver to wood/poly, from keyless to keyed, from 3 to 6, 8 keys, and all the ways round.
What is "the real thing", and whether one can define it at all, at which stage?... well this is too individual, hard to define, answer takes time, sometimes a whole lifetime might not be enough.
Anyway, I agree completely with you referring to the fact, that one won't get the best of of an instrument that he's not happy with. One should try everything he can to make the right choice.
A cheap way of deciding is to start playing the whsitle. If you find that you can't get on with the fingering- which is "identical" to the keyless flute- revert to the tin flute.
I think you'll find ornamentation a lot more satisfactory with the simple system.
If you plan to play in keys remote from G,D and related minors and modals, stick to Boehm.
There's a player near here called Brendan Hickey who plays Irish music really well on a silver flute; but then he's not trying for wall-to-wall ornamentation, just solid melody playing with selected ornamentation here and there. There's nothing imprecise or blurred about it, it always sounds well. The comment about the 'reedy' sound of the wooden flute is well made, the silver flute seems never to achieve that. There's another player who uses a great fat-barrelled keyed flute that looks as though it is made of aluminium, and she gets a great sound out of that which I think sounds very traditional. I don't know who makes it, but I could find out, however it looks like an expensive instrument.
Ottery - what you do with your instruments is your own business...but I don't really think they were designed for "that".
Seriously though, I've gone from polymer to wood back to polymer. The key thing is cheap polymer (one or two piece non-conical instruments) are one thing, but M&E and Seery are conical and made just like a wooden flute...and you can tell they're made the same way when you play them.
I love my polymer flute, and I have no stress about it cracking despite living in a climate that's very harsh and changes constantly.
Oh, and while you don't need keys, they rock. I love having the ability to play classical and ragtime on my M&E as well as ITM which is my main thing.
I played the modern flute from early elementary school through early college. Then I started playing around with Andean wind instruments and got interested in various types of folk music and simpler flutes. When I discovered Irish Traditional Music, I had already been learning to play the Andean quenacho (which is exactly the same fingering as the simple system flute except that it has an octave thumb hole). I was having a hard time playing fast on it, when I discovered a web site on the low whistle that sugested using a 'pipers grip' on the right hand. It took a couple of weeks of struggling with it to re-teach my hand to do something different than it was used to, but it was definitely worth it! My first 'Irish' flute was one I made myself out of 3/4 inch schedule 80 PVC pipe. When I finally got my Casey Burns Mopane flute, I already had several tunes down and the fingering drilled into my brain. In my opinion, the simple system fingering is very similar to the modern fingering system (with a few minor exceptions; F# and C#). I find that I can 'sight read' on it very easily. If you are interested in trying out a simple system flute for not a lot of money, check out my web site at www.theburnfieldcastle.com/flutes.
An even less expensive option, and more fun in my opinion, would be to get access to a drill-press, a round file some fine sanpaper, a pipe-cutter (or hacksaw), and some 3/4 inch pvc pipe and e-mail me for the plans and build your own!
Sure, it's not in the same category as a conical wooden flute, but it's really satisfying to play jigs and reels on something you whipped out in your garage in a couple of hours ;)
Eric, I'm not saying that on purely practical grounds there is anything wrong with a good polymer flute. I've heard them played and actually thought they were wood, and sure, they are more durable and less likely to be effected by the vaguaries of wayward climes. It's just an aesthetic thing I guess. I have a friend who buys and restores and sells old flutes, and he'll pop round with a bag of his latest acquisitions and we'll try them out. There is something magical about the feel of and the playing of an old flute that may have sat unplayed for up to a couple of hundred years. They may be hopelessly impractical, and indeed, most of them are difficult if not impossible to play in modern tuning, but they feel like they come complete with a 'character'.
Maybe I'm just looking for something to compensate for the inadequacies in my playing .....
Ottery - I do understand the need to connect with your instrument. I grew up playing Sax, so I think I'm predisposed to being OK with non-wooden woodwind instruments. For me, the M&E does have that magic feeling - a blue collar feeling I like in my flute.
In contrast, I'm playing a vintage anonymous tenor banjo because of the three I tried when I went banjo shopping, this one had a feel that the other 3 vintage, and the brand new, banjos simply didn't.
For some reason I have no fear of wooden stringed instruments cracking but I'm absolutely paranoid about flutes cracking - to the point they're no fun if I have to worry about them...and yes I do know wooden stringed instruments crack as well (I never claimed to be truly rationale in this matter).
Reusing your old boehm vs buying an Irish flute: although there are a few players out there using boehm flutes for ITM, wooden simple system flutes are preferred because of their darker/reedier tone color and the fact that certain forms of ornaments are easier without keys getting in the way. Also, the intonation of a simple system flute is subtly different from a Boehm which is designed to be equally in tune in all keys. (The differences between just, equal and other tunings is beyond the scope of this note)
The switch from boehm to simple system is not that difficult, but their are differences. The chief one is embouchure, which tends to be tighter and more focussed in order to acheive the dark reedy tone desired, rather than the pure round tone of a boehm. Fingering is the same as a D whistle, so XXX X00 is F# rather than F natural. The keys are an optional extra used to produce the notes that do not fall in the D major scale: i.e. D#/E flat, F nat, G#, A#/B flat, C nat. Many ITM players happily spend their entire playing career on keyless flutes, while others of us throw caution to the winds and splurge for keys -- mainly because we want to play non-ITM tunes.
There are lots of good flute makers out there -- although none of them are Pakistani. M&E and Desi Seery both make polymer flutes that are well regarded, and I believe that both of them will retrofit keys when your playing and pocketbook allow.
Good keyless wooden flutes can be had for $400 - $1,500 from a variety of makers. Keyed wooden flutes are MUCH more expensive, and usually involve a wait unless you find one second hand.
You will find lots of discussions of various flutes and flute makers on the Chiff and Fipple Flute list: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?forum=2&3603
It's a great resource, and like this forum, a marvelous alternative to working
Yes, that certainly looks like the instrument. I think anyone would be delighted with the sound she gets out of it, but it looks even more expensive on the website !
Wow, thanks for a lot of very good advice. I do have a couple of questions though... Firstly, how many keys can be reliably played in, is it possible to get A reasonably easily (as I'm not a 100% ITM player, enjoy Scottish as well and a lot of STM fiddle tunes seem to be written in A) and then how about E (or is that pushing it a bit far)?? Then again, I could have sworn someone once told me that a flute with only one key (Eb) could be be fully chromatic in the right hands?
Slightly more technical, and pretty irrelavent, but does anyone know why whistles don't need conical bores but flutes do? If its something to do with the top octave being in tune, why don't whistles need conical bores?
First, lets deal with technical irrelavent issues...conical flutes, and whistles, tend to be more in tune. Yes, whistles, too. That's part of why you have to blow harder in the upper octave to get the darn notes in tune. Conical whistles such as Susato and Clarkes tend to have better tuning than most cylindrical bore whistles.
On a keyless flute, with cross fingering and half holing you can play in any key...at least any key that doesn't require a D#/Eb (it's near impossible to have a good half holed D#). So, one key will get you most notes, but those cross fingered and half holed notes are not as pure and take some embouchure gymnastics and breath increases and decreases to get the notes to sound good. A isn't to hard as G# half holes and cross fingers well on most flutes. I do think buying from a maker who'll upgrade from keyless to keyed makes sense.
In theory Eric is right about half holing. However, my keyless flute while lovely in D, G and related modes, was not happy in A major. I was never able to find an acceptable G#, particularly for tunes that hit the note hard. Half holing and cross fingering worked for passing notes but not for stressed ones.
However, different flutes and different embouchures have different strong and weak points, so don't use my experience to put you off a keyless. Another point, if you work with a maker who retrofits keys, you don't have to get them all at once: start with a G# and maybe a D# -- that will give you A and E. F natural (either long or short or both) is nice, but the F half hole isn't bad on most flutes. C natural is almost a frill, because the various cross fingered and half holing options work very well. In fact I still use them even though I have a C natural key depending on the sequence of notes: d down to C nat is an easy cross finger (XXX XXX to 0X0 XXX) where the key is a bit awkward. The B flat key is not used much in ITM, but there are some great tunes in other traditions that play in F/Dm so I'm glad to have it.
Baroque flutes had only one key (D#/Eb) and were fully chromatic. However, they had a slightly different bore and finger spacing to the 19th century classical flutes that were adopted by folk musicians when the pros ditched them for boehm flutes. The 19th century ones were intended to have at least 4 keys to be chromatic. If I understand correctly, the keyless version is predominantly a 20th century re-invention -- but I could be wrong about this.
Eric, you wrote - "For me, the M&E does have that magic feeling - a blue collar feeling I like in my flute."
I can relate to that - you've made me look at polymer flutes in quite a new light - thanks
Mark
I find playing in A almost impossible on an 8-key flute. The key is not conveniently placed, and cannot be played quickly as on a silver flute. I notice that when Matt Malloy plays his toure-de-force version of The Mason's Apron (a tune in A), he switches keys when he goes into his solo variations. That should tell you something. I use the 8-key to get a clear C- or F-natural. It's also nice to be able to get the low D#, C#, and C-natural.
I had to barge in on this as my ears were burning.
Thanks Nick for your kind comments!
The flute you're talking about is a Uebel 'Vibralloy', made in East Germany in the 1960s. I believe it was designed to 'fit in' with the wooden flutes in the E German and Russian orchestras, the lighter sound of French-style flutes not being popular there (plus they couldn't easily get flutes imported). Uebel brought out his prototype earlier, that's the flute in the link Kevin Krell put in, it would be a handmade one and worth loadsmoney. Mine's a factory-made one and cost me £70 about 20 years ago. They are becoming very hard to find and would cost at least £300 now. They ceased production of this model in the 1970s when Uebel died.
I choose to play this particular instrument for trad music because it is heavy and robust and I like the feel of the big keys. However, if pushed I can get the same effect from a regular silver flute. The material the flute is made of is irrelevent, it's how well the instrument is made and the player that make the difference.
That's enough heresy for now!
i agree with luap ekrub- the best way to find out if yo want to seriously take irish flute up is nbe playing whistle. it is the same fingerings, but there is a different embrochure. also- whatever you do DON'T buy ANY PAKISTANI INSTRUMENT.- NO MATTER WHAT IT IS! all pakistani instruments are made of low quality materials, with the cheapest, fastest manufacturing standards. the result is a poor sounding, if not impossible to play insrument.
Question for the flautists
Question for the flautists
About 8 years ago I gave up playing classical flute (playing it was one of these things my parents make me do), and I'm now thinking of restarting the instrument, but in a trad sense. So, if anyone can advise on any of the following topics it'd be really useful.
Firstly, I still have my silver (boehm) system flute, so I was wondering if my best move would be to re-learn on that or acquire a simple system (wooden/polymer) flute? If I follow the old flute path, how easy is it to pick up a keyed wooden flute and play it....do the keys on a silver flute equate to the keys on a wooden flute? Also, how much more simple is the fingering for a simple system flute (as I'm gonna be using it to teach tunes alot I don't need to be fast, but I'd need to be able to play reels at about 1/2 speed by christmas)?
If I buy a polymer flute, who makes good ones, should I start on a keyless and have keys added when I can play it keyless, single piece or 3 piece, tunable/non-tuneable (bearing in mind I won't be playing it out for a year or so)?? And being an impoverised student means money is a major factor (so I won't be getting a keyed Grinter....even if anyone suggests it!!) so suggesting how much I'd expect to pay would be really useful too.
Many thanks for your help!
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Andy V
Re: Question for the flautists
Well I find it really hard to play folk tunes on my flute (boehm), even though I'm a fairly proficient player in classical music terms. I don't know what it is about them, they just never seem to go right and they always sound really....messy.
Anyhoo, I find tunes alot easier to play on the whistle, and since you want to be using your flute to teach, a simple flute gives an easily seeable fingering, as there aren't any thumb holes or anything. Plus it makes it easier if you're teaching whistle players aswell.
Downsides....well, if you small hands (like me) playing a D flute with the joints of your fingers when you've been trianed to use the pads is really annoying. Also, if you have a tune that has a lot of accidentals or chromatic runs then that's also really annoying.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by folkie musicie junkie
Re: Question for the flautists
You could learn to play the Boehm system flute - I've heard a lot of really good Irish music played on the 'silver typewriter'. I don't like the 'clickiness' of it myself if I play fast music on it. Most people who play keyed simple-system flutes don't seem to use the keys a whole lot, so personally I'd go for an unkeyed one. But you won't get much change out of £500 for a new one from a decent maker. However, if it's good it will increase in price/value, so you can always sell it or exchange it in the future.
I don't like the idea of a polymer flute. I'm sure they are good, but I can't imagine loving a plastic flute, and I think you need to love your instrument to get the best out of it.
But then I'm probably a bit odd.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Ottery
Re: Question for the flautists
Curiously, the 8 keyed flute is the same fingering as the oboe (which I used to play a loooong time ago) and not much related to the Boehm flute.
I've switched from an 8 keyed to a keyless (Martin Doyle) and don't miss the keys much (other than the C natural which I used to use a lot) and the F which I used occassionally.
I got the Doyle for £350. It has a big sound and speaks nicely. I've never tried polymer but agree with Ottery.
I used to play a lot with a guy who uses a silver flute. What I found was that it sounded really good when I was accompanying him on bouzouki, but I didn't like the two flutes together so much. Mainly because of the different ornamentation he had to do, but partly the sound.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Alister
Re: Question for the flautists
Oh - and the doyle doesn't have a tuning slide...
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Alister
Re: Question for the flautists
Yeh, that's another thing. You can't do slides on a key'd flute, well, not properly anyway, because you have to bend the note with your mouth and at the same time and change the note slowly...sort of....ack, I'm talking rubbish now.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by folkie musicie junkie
Re: Question for the flautists
I think playing slow airs on a silver flute sounds quite lovely and very full, compared to a wooden flute. However, I would counsel against using the silver flute for dance tunes. It's hard to get the reedy sound preferred in trad, and the ornamentation gets weird. You'll be happier in the long run if you go to a wooden flute. Forget plastic flutes; just dig down and fork out what you need to for a good wooden flute and have done. You don't need an 8-key; just get a really good simple-system flute. I recommend Casey Burns'. They have a punchy sound and good intonation.
Have fun!
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Ailin
Re: Question for the flautists
Woosh - amazing xchange rate just now means a Casey Burns is pretty good value, although these http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/fluteframeuk.htm (scroll down a bit) look interesting. HAs anyone played a Glenluce from Hobgoblin?
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Alister
Re: Question for the flautists
andy, in certain respects people who play or have played the boehm/classical flute are ahead in certain respects and behind in other. i think you should make a priority to get a real irish blackwood flute. and don't mess around: get a keyless olwell which will take about a year. or a hammy hamilton.
there will be an adjustment period getting to play an irish flute an the irish style. i have observed that those who have played boehm beforehand have a kind of smooth and timid tone and phrasing. to each his own. but irish flute style flute playing tends to be more aggressive (although again, there are still some stylistic choices here).
a keyless olwell will run you about $1500 (not that much in the schemem of instument buying, and it is a world class instument, but still alot of money of course). i agree with ailin, that, although it would be nice, you don't need a keyed flute right now. get the best unkeyed you can get your hands on.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Brendan
Re: Question for the flautists
Re, the Glenluce (cheap pakistan-made) flutes - you get what you pay for. They've been mentioned on here, and other forums, many times, and rarely in a good light.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Wurzel
Re: Question for the flautists
This is a helpful resource:
www.firescribble.net/flute
Basically, some of the fingerings are identical to Boehm flute, some are similar, some are totally different. I switched from Boehm flute to a six-keyed wood flute (because I still use it some situations where I need chromaticism), but a keyless is quite adequate for most Irish traditional music. Getting used to a keyless (coming from a Boehm flute) doesn't take long; getting really proficient with the keys on a simple system flute does take a long time.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by mcswiss
Re: Question for the flautists
Don't discount plastic flutes! I have an M & E and I think it's great. Even experienced Irish musicians think it's wood - based on the sound and not just the looks - until you tell them otherwise. I have frequent access to a friend's Murray (like, on a daily basis) and for my purposes (heavy session use) the M & E does just as well. (I am not saying the M & E is a better flute, BUT can a beginner or beginner/intermediate player get $700 more value out of the Murray? I think not.)
If/when you do get a wooden flute, the M & E is a fantastic backup, warmup, camping, busking, utility flute.
No, plastic is not as cozy or as pretty as wood. But in terms of playability it is as good or better than many "real" wooden flutes out there. The only real functional drawback is that it feels heavier then wood, but not drastically so.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Question for the flautists
Andy, I live in Durham. I have an M&E you could have a blow on, if you want to try it. I can also discuss the silver flute/wooden flute issue with you - I did the 'conversion' to wooden flute myself several years ago. If you want to come over to Durham (on a session night maybe??) send me an email.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by patsy
Re: Question for the flautists
Andy_newcastle, I'd absolutely second all that wormdiet said. I'd also recommend you read a gret bunch of sound advice from M&E Website: http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/index.htm
These sections will answer most of the questions you may have.
The M&E polymers are great flutes, reliable and playable under most adverse conditions. Of course, there are junkie plastic flutes out there, as well as great deal of wooden ones of the same quality, but both M&E and Seery are great exponents of the finest craftmanship that speaks (or plays) for itself.
Ottery, let me assure you of my own experience. It IS possible to love a plastic flute.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Barfly
Re: Question for the flautists
Very different sounds. Fingering on the wooden flute is more logical and same as the whistle. (But then I never learnt the silver flute). Lilias Kinsman Blake plays a silver flute, but other people seem tp prefer the wooden version. But it's not cheap to get a decent one. There are plenty of great players around the north east to listen to and ask. have you heard Thomas McElvogue or Norman Holmes? (among others)
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by minijackpot
Re: Question for the flautists
Barfly, I'm sure you're right, it's just a personal prejudice. Personally I believe that if you fall in love, you must at least THINK it's going to last forever. I can't imagine a plastic flute as anything other than a stepping stone to getting the real thing, or as a 'spare' to take places you wouldn't take the 'real' one. So I can't imagine having that level of commitment to a delrin flute. I'm not sure that a plastic flute and I could go 'all the way'
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Ottery
Re: Question for the flautists
Understanding playing as constantly searching for new sounds, colours and ways of expression, one might never stop experimenting, wheteher it is moving from plastic to wood, from silver to wood/poly, from keyless to keyed, from 3 to 6, 8 keys, and all the ways round.
What is "the real thing", and whether one can define it at all, at which stage?... well this is too individual, hard to define, answer takes time, sometimes a whole lifetime might not be enough.
Anyway, I agree completely with you referring to the fact, that one won't get the best of of an instrument that he's not happy with. One should try everything he can to make the right choice.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Barfly
Re: Question for the flautists
A cheap way of deciding is to start playing the whsitle. If you find that you can't get on with the fingering- which is "identical" to the keyless flute- revert to the tin flute.
I think you'll find ornamentation a lot more satisfactory with the simple system.
If you plan to play in keys remote from G,D and related minors and modals, stick to Boehm.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Question for the flautists
There's a player near here called Brendan Hickey who plays Irish music really well on a silver flute; but then he's not trying for wall-to-wall ornamentation, just solid melody playing with selected ornamentation here and there. There's nothing imprecise or blurred about it, it always sounds well. The comment about the 'reedy' sound of the wooden flute is well made, the silver flute seems never to achieve that. There's another player who uses a great fat-barrelled keyed flute that looks as though it is made of aluminium, and she gets a great sound out of that which I think sounds very traditional. I don't know who makes it, but I could find out, however it looks like an expensive instrument.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Question for the flautists
Ottery - what you do with your instruments is your own business...but I don't really think they were designed for "that".
Seriously though, I've gone from polymer to wood back to polymer. The key thing is cheap polymer (one or two piece non-conical instruments) are one thing, but M&E and Seery are conical and made just like a wooden flute...and you can tell they're made the same way when you play them.
I love my polymer flute, and I have no stress about it cracking despite living in a climate that's very harsh and changes constantly.
Oh, and while you don't need keys, they rock. I love having the ability to play classical and ragtime on my M&E as well as ITM which is my main thing.
Eric
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Question for the flautists
I played the modern flute from early elementary school through early college. Then I started playing around with Andean wind instruments and got interested in various types of folk music and simpler flutes. When I discovered Irish Traditional Music, I had already been learning to play the Andean quenacho (which is exactly the same fingering as the simple system flute except that it has an octave thumb hole). I was having a hard time playing fast on it, when I discovered a web site on the low whistle that sugested using a 'pipers grip' on the right hand. It took a couple of weeks of struggling with it to re-teach my hand to do something different than it was used to, but it was definitely worth it! My first 'Irish' flute was one I made myself out of 3/4 inch schedule 80 PVC pipe. When I finally got my Casey Burns Mopane flute, I already had several tunes down and the fingering drilled into my brain. In my opinion, the simple system fingering is very similar to the modern fingering system (with a few minor exceptions; F# and C#). I find that I can 'sight read' on it very easily. If you are interested in trying out a simple system flute for not a lot of money, check out my web site at www.theburnfieldcastle.com/flutes.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Question for the flautists
An even less expensive option, and more fun in my opinion, would be to get access to a drill-press, a round file some fine sanpaper, a pipe-cutter (or hacksaw), and some 3/4 inch pvc pipe and e-mail me for the plans and build your own!
Sure, it's not in the same category as a conical wooden flute, but it's really satisfying to play jigs and reels on something you whipped out in your garage in a couple of hours ;)
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Question for the flautists
Eric, I'm not saying that on purely practical grounds there is anything wrong with a good polymer flute. I've heard them played and actually thought they were wood, and sure, they are more durable and less likely to be effected by the vaguaries of wayward climes. It's just an aesthetic thing I guess. I have a friend who buys and restores and sells old flutes, and he'll pop round with a bag of his latest acquisitions and we'll try them out. There is something magical about the feel of and the playing of an old flute that may have sat unplayed for up to a couple of hundred years. They may be hopelessly impractical, and indeed, most of them are difficult if not impossible to play in modern tuning, but they feel like they come complete with a 'character'.
Maybe I'm just looking for something to compensate for the inadequacies in my playing .....
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Ottery
Re: Question for the flautists
Ottery - I do understand the need to connect with your instrument. I grew up playing Sax, so I think I'm predisposed to being OK with non-wooden woodwind instruments. For me, the M&E does have that magic feeling - a blue collar feeling I like in my flute.
In contrast, I'm playing a vintage anonymous tenor banjo because of the three I tried when I went banjo shopping, this one had a feel that the other 3 vintage, and the brand new, banjos simply didn't.
For some reason I have no fear of wooden stringed instruments cracking but I'm absolutely paranoid about flutes cracking - to the point they're no fun if I have to worry about them...and yes I do know wooden stringed instruments crack as well (I never claimed to be truly rationale in this matter).
Eric
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Question for the flautists
To take your questions in order:
Reusing your old boehm vs buying an Irish flute: although there are a few players out there using boehm flutes for ITM, wooden simple system flutes are preferred because of their darker/reedier tone color and the fact that certain forms of ornaments are easier without keys getting in the way. Also, the intonation of a simple system flute is subtly different from a Boehm which is designed to be equally in tune in all keys. (The differences between just, equal and other tunings is beyond the scope of this note)
The switch from boehm to simple system is not that difficult, but their are differences. The chief one is embouchure, which tends to be tighter and more focussed in order to acheive the dark reedy tone desired, rather than the pure round tone of a boehm. Fingering is the same as a D whistle, so XXX X00 is F# rather than F natural. The keys are an optional extra used to produce the notes that do not fall in the D major scale: i.e. D#/E flat, F nat, G#, A#/B flat, C nat. Many ITM players happily spend their entire playing career on keyless flutes, while others of us throw caution to the winds and splurge for keys -- mainly because we want to play non-ITM tunes.
There are lots of good flute makers out there -- although none of them are Pakistani. M&E and Desi Seery both make polymer flutes that are well regarded, and I believe that both of them will retrofit keys when your playing and pocketbook allow.
Good keyless wooden flutes can be had for $400 - $1,500 from a variety of makers. Keyed wooden flutes are MUCH more expensive, and usually involve a wait unless you find one second hand.
You will find lots of discussions of various flutes and flute makers on the Chiff and Fipple Flute list: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?forum=2&3603
It's a great resource, and like this forum, a marvelous alternative to working
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by KateG
Re: Question for the flautists
Nick, would that be Sharon's flute? Like this: http://alpha1.fmarion.edu/goferjoe/uebel.htm
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by kkrell
Re: Question for the flautists
Yes, that certainly looks like the instrument. I think anyone would be delighted with the sound she gets out of it, but it looks even more expensive on the website !
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Question for the flautists
Wow, thanks for a lot of very good advice. I do have a couple of questions though... Firstly, how many keys can be reliably played in, is it possible to get A reasonably easily (as I'm not a 100% ITM player, enjoy Scottish as well and a lot of STM fiddle tunes seem to be written in A) and then how about E (or is that pushing it a bit far)?? Then again, I could have sworn someone once told me that a flute with only one key (Eb) could be be fully chromatic in the right hands?
Slightly more technical, and pretty irrelavent, but does anyone know why whistles don't need conical bores but flutes do? If its something to do with the top octave being in tune, why don't whistles need conical bores?
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Andy V
Re: Question for the flautists
First, lets deal with technical irrelavent issues...conical flutes, and whistles, tend to be more in tune. Yes, whistles, too. That's part of why you have to blow harder in the upper octave to get the darn notes in tune. Conical whistles such as Susato and Clarkes tend to have better tuning than most cylindrical bore whistles.
On a keyless flute, with cross fingering and half holing you can play in any key...at least any key that doesn't require a D#/Eb (it's near impossible to have a good half holed D#). So, one key will get you most notes, but those cross fingered and half holed notes are not as pure and take some embouchure gymnastics and breath increases and decreases to get the notes to sound good. A isn't to hard as G# half holes and cross fingers well on most flutes. I do think buying from a maker who'll upgrade from keyless to keyed makes sense.
Eric
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Question for the flautists
In theory Eric is right about half holing. However, my keyless flute while lovely in D, G and related modes, was not happy in A major. I was never able to find an acceptable G#, particularly for tunes that hit the note hard. Half holing and cross fingering worked for passing notes but not for stressed ones.
However, different flutes and different embouchures have different strong and weak points, so don't use my experience to put you off a keyless. Another point, if you work with a maker who retrofits keys, you don't have to get them all at once: start with a G# and maybe a D# -- that will give you A and E. F natural (either long or short or both) is nice, but the F half hole isn't bad on most flutes. C natural is almost a frill, because the various cross fingered and half holing options work very well. In fact I still use them even though I have a C natural key depending on the sequence of notes: d down to C nat is an easy cross finger (XXX XXX to 0X0 XXX) where the key is a bit awkward. The B flat key is not used much in ITM, but there are some great tunes in other traditions that play in F/Dm so I'm glad to have it.
Baroque flutes had only one key (D#/Eb) and were fully chromatic. However, they had a slightly different bore and finger spacing to the 19th century classical flutes that were adopted by folk musicians when the pros ditched them for boehm flutes. The 19th century ones were intended to have at least 4 keys to be chromatic. If I understand correctly, the keyless version is predominantly a 20th century re-invention -- but I could be wrong about this.
# Posted on June 3rd 2006 by KateG
Re: Question for the flautists
Eric, you wrote - "For me, the M&E does have that magic feeling - a blue collar feeling I like in my flute."
I can relate to that - you've made me look at polymer flutes in quite a new light - thanks
Mark
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Question for the flautists
I find playing in A almost impossible on an 8-key flute. The key is not conveniently placed, and cannot be played quickly as on a silver flute. I notice that when Matt Malloy plays his toure-de-force version of The Mason's Apron (a tune in A), he switches keys when he goes into his solo variations. That should tell you something. I use the 8-key to get a clear C- or F-natural. It's also nice to be able to get the low D#, C#, and C-natural.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Ailin
Re: Question for the flautists
I had to barge in on this as my ears were burning.
Thanks Nick for your kind comments!
The flute you're talking about is a Uebel 'Vibralloy', made in East Germany in the 1960s. I believe it was designed to 'fit in' with the wooden flutes in the E German and Russian orchestras, the lighter sound of French-style flutes not being popular there (plus they couldn't easily get flutes imported). Uebel brought out his prototype earlier, that's the flute in the link Kevin Krell put in, it would be a handmade one and worth loadsmoney. Mine's a factory-made one and cost me £70 about 20 years ago. They are becoming very hard to find and would cost at least £300 now. They ceased production of this model in the 1970s when Uebel died.
I choose to play this particular instrument for trad music because it is heavy and robust and I like the feel of the big keys. However, if pushed I can get the same effect from a regular silver flute. The material the flute is made of is irrelevent, it's how well the instrument is made and the player that make the difference.
That's enough heresy for now!
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by The Archivist
Re: Question for the flautists
i agree with luap ekrub- the best way to find out if yo want to seriously take irish flute up is nbe playing whistle. it is the same fingerings, but there is a different embrochure. also- whatever you do DON'T buy ANY PAKISTANI INSTRUMENT.- NO MATTER WHAT IT IS! all pakistani instruments are made of low quality materials, with the cheapest, fastest manufacturing standards. the result is a poor sounding, if not impossible to play insrument.
# Posted on June 7th 2006 by rob_handel
Re: Question for the flautists
Listen to Norman Holmes play, he can manage just about any key on a wooden flute
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by minijackpot
Re: Question for the flautists
Update to the link for a Uebel aluminum flute:
http://goferjoe.bygones.biz/uebel.htm
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by kkrell