Greetings--I'm new to the session, and also to this type of music. I'm a guitarist of 42 years and would like to delve in head first. I have a few questions, that I couldn't find answers to, so please bear with me:
1.) Where are the chords? Is this site only for melody?
2. ) Is there sample recordings to the tunes that are accessible on the web?
You might find a few tunes that have the guitar chords on this site, but I would say you need to start buying CD's of your favorite groups or individuals and just listen.
When you go the download page of the Tunes section, there are four choices to get the tune on a recording. That's not to say that the tunes are always available, but I have picked up a couple dozen that way.
There are several programs availalble (Audacity, Windows Media Player, etc) to slow down the music so you can play along and learn the tunes.
We have a guitar player in our session who is pretty well accomplished, but not in ITM. He recently said that all the tunes sound the same to him. That is a telling statement. If you don't know the tunes, you can't play along.
Also, learn the modes. Here is a link that explains them pretty well.
Hi rogfox. How does windows media player slow down tunes? Im on xp if that helps. Have used amazing slower downer freeware but it only slows the first two tracks of a C.D.
This site is primarily about melody, because Irish dance music is primarily about melody. Percussion and harmony take supporting roles, if they’re present at all, and when you get em both embodied in the guitar, whith its rhythmic and chordal possibilities, you start to run into some problems. It seems like the diddley music is going through a phase trying to sort these issues out, how to best incorporate these ideas, with the bodhran and bouzouki too, into the tradition. Growing pains, I guess.
Guitar and bouzouki have been part of the Trad scene for 40 years or more, so most if not all of the "issues" are well sorted at this stage. The role of the guitar in the music is clear if you listen to practically any recording made in the last two decades. IMHO to say trad music is "primarily about melody" misses the mark by an Irish Mile. irish dance music is about dance, be it the physical kind or just "in the head"
Razz2 you need to listen to what you say you're interested in and study the music a bit before you "dive in".
Newty, in xp, Windows Media Payer - go to View - Enhancements - Play Speed Settings, you can then adjust the slider control to get the desired speed. A quick method is to go to Play - Play Speed this gives slow, normal or fast options. Hope this is of some help.
It's not helped by the fact that for a 32 bar tune, played 3 times through, just using triad chords (ie CEG for C) in the key of the tune (so no sneaky chromatic runs/diminshed passing chords etc etc) and assuming the guitarist can change chord twice a bar, there are (reaches for calculator) 1344 possible chords playable. Obviously, not all of the chords are gonna fit, but one man's dischord is another's harmony.......then if you factor in droning strings in DADGAD (most of which are completely undefinable in terms of the root note), the almost endless numbers of extensions you can stick onto the triads..........
Of course, I-IV-V stuff is pretty much the basis for it, and that's a good place to start. But as it's dance music, the rhythm is the most important part and an accompaniment.
Look, I love the guitar, and it adds a lot in certain situations. Obviously the guitar, bouzouki and bodhran are accepted in the music except by maybe the most rabid purists. I’m not one. On the other hand, the zouk and bodhran seem to fit in pretty seemlessly, while the guitar has had more mixed results. Fingerpicked DADGAD sounds great in the studio where you can mix it just right, but in a live un-mic’ed setting it seems to get lost. I think more great playing has been marred by overly-energetic guitar strumming – epsecially the kind where all you pick up is the slap of the pick against the strings, sort of a harmonic snare drum – than since Coleman’s piano player. Do I need to state that this is just my opinion?
42-y-o, or 42 years playing ?
A lot of answers, a lot of sense.
A little while ago I riled-up someone who said he was a musician of 30 years experience, and where could he get a bouzouki teacher in his area, and I expressed wonderment that he needed one with all that experience.
Are you just listening at home or have you found a session or two, because I recommend both as essential stepping stones - learn from others in the live action and practise at home with some recordings. Learn the modes, because I - IV - V won't be any help with Banish Misfortune, or The King of the Fairies. Remember that mnay musicians in this scene don't even know the key they're playing in, let alone the name of the tune, and even if they do it probably won't be exactly the same as the dots you can conjure up here. And that doesn't mean they're not s***hot, it's just not an essental part of being a competent musician in this genre.
Enjoy this new life, you have opened a door into a new world. Be prepared for a long and eventful voyage.
Oh, and it's not just chords you need, it's understanding the rhythms I've heard people suggest that is a ten-year quest in itself. Try doing the dances to the tunes, that is an essential part of understanding the rhythms, even though sessions have become rather detached from dancing, this is still, as O'Neill described it, "The Dance Music of Ireland".
What len said and what Pete said...Audacity lets you hit some hot keys so you can repeat a section or loop a section over and over to get it right.
Media player works fine as well, it's just not as 'complete' as Audacity and Audacity is free too.
I also meant to tell you to find a session somewhere close to you and join. Nothing takes the place of actually playing with others, and learning the tunes.
If you can record the tunes and take them home, slow them down and play along, you will progress at an amazing rate. Trust me!
Pete,
I wasn't for a moment suggesting that I-IV-V is all you would need, just that it (and the harmonic theory stuff derived from the basic cadances) would cover you for about 50% of the tunes you'll hear, and this was fairly clear.... I think Banish Misfortune was a bad example by the way, just played the midi file and comped a kind of I-v-VI (thats a minor 5th as opposed to the major), not terribly interesting, but perfectly satisfactory!!
It's probably been suggested before, but would an "Accompaniment" section for each tune section be any use, then we could add suggested chord sequences, which at the very least would provide some interesting examples?
Irish tunes are not like your normal conventional tunes,
not always based on arpeggios or chords and hitting a
big fat I major chord followed by IV or V major chord
is not always the best option, thinking "what are the right chords" is not the best way to view accompaniment.
Not always - but often.
You play a big fat D over a section where the fiddle player is consiously trying to flatten an F#, then you're ruining thing a bit.
If I'm not mistaken there are recordings of Hugie Gillespie (fiddle) being accompanied by guitar dating back to the 1930's.
So the whole idea of string accompaniment inflicting "Growing Pains" on the melodic poulation is absurd.
Guitar and bouzouki are well established in the tradition
ABCMus2.0 has a facility for automatically adding chords to a tune, and you can set it to various levels of "strangeness" from straightforward I-IV-V to extremely advanced stuff that would be meaningless in an ITM context.
When you have a tune loaded up into ABCMus click on the Tools windows, select "Chords", and go from there.
I'm not one to argue NO guitars, having one or three at home, but personally I changed to using bouzouki at a session, partly because I think one guitar is enough, and on 'zouk you have the options of playing the melody or an accompaniment that's not just chordal, but might also be partly audible in a noisy session that guitar melody will not.
Also, I believe guitar was introduced, into Shetland music at least, at the beginning of the 20th century. And then there's been the tradition of someone "driving the piano" at the older pub sessions, sometimes dubbed onto early fiddle recordings without even checking if the two are in pitch with each other.
However the tradition has always been melodic, but the harmony is indicated by the patterns, thus if you have a D, an F sharp, and an A in the first bar you might confidently assume the accompanying chord could be a D major. You just have to see wha seems to be the dominant notes, and which the passing ones. Sometimes this is easier by ear, I find, sometimes figuring it out from the dots. Practise......
3 chords for Banish Misfortune, eh ? I might try that out, but I suspect I'll prefer my D/C figures.
One of my best friends is a guitar. Allow me to backpedal a bit. I think it was presumtuous to even mention “tradition”, something I have no real right to invoke, and especially seeing as how most instruments were introduced, anyway. Folks must have been a little more accepting at one time, maybe?
Yet. Why do some instruments, the bouzouki is a great example, seem to “fit” so perfectly? It seems like the guitar has to work so much harder to fit in. There’s an approach to guitar that exists outside Irish trad that doesn’t seem to work (for me) inside Irish music. And I’m probably hung up here on my own shortcomings. It’s not like rhythm work in any other style I’ve ever played. The stuff that sounds good to me, I mean. One approach, the whole old timey/bluegrass boom chick boom chick --- bass note -- partial chord strum -- bass run to next chord -- strum ---works pretty well on hornpipes, and okay on a lot of reels as long as I punctuate the rhythm with rests. Jigs, slides, slip jigs get a lot trickier.
I do listen to folks like McGlynn, Sproule, Cahill, Doyle etc. who are incredible musicians. But I don’t always enjoy what they do. Just my preference. I’ll keep listening. I’ve grown to like things I intially didn’t, before this. Like, mm, bourbon.
I suspect the reason bouzouki fits so easily into ITM is that the chords played on them frequently don't use thirds and the tunings facilitate this, either in fiddle tuning or any of the open or repeated tunings. This is probably because a lot of trad music isn't based upon chords/arpeggios, so the fewer "chord" notes used in accompaniment, the less likely they'll clash.
Pete, it's only a technicality (sorry), Amin7 = A/Cmaj etc but Amin is the V chord in Dmix, so effectively both chord sequences are the same, just the bass note that's different.
Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Greetings--I'm new to the session, and also to this type of music. I'm a guitarist of 42 years and would like to delve in head first. I have a few questions, that I couldn't find answers to, so please bear with me:
1.) Where are the chords? Is this site only for melody?
2. ) Is there sample recordings to the tunes that are accessible on the web?
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by razz2
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
You might find a few tunes that have the guitar chords on this site, but I would say you need to start buying CD's of your favorite groups or individuals and just listen.
When you go the download page of the Tunes section, there are four choices to get the tune on a recording. That's not to say that the tunes are always available, but I have picked up a couple dozen that way.
There are several programs availalble (Audacity, Windows Media Player, etc) to slow down the music so you can play along and learn the tunes.
We have a guitar player in our session who is pretty well accomplished, but not in ITM. He recently said that all the tunes sound the same to him. That is a telling statement. If you don't know the tunes, you can't play along.
Also, learn the modes. Here is a link that explains them pretty well.
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
So first and foremost LEARN THE TUNES! Fair Play!
Roger
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Hi rogfox. How does windows media player slow down tunes? Im on xp if that helps. Have used amazing slower downer freeware but it only slows the first two tracks of a C.D.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Newty
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
This site is primarily about melody, because Irish dance music is primarily about melody. Percussion and harmony take supporting roles, if they’re present at all, and when you get em both embodied in the guitar, whith its rhythmic and chordal possibilities, you start to run into some problems. It seems like the diddley music is going through a phase trying to sort these issues out, how to best incorporate these ideas, with the bodhran and bouzouki too, into the tradition. Growing pains, I guess.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Guitar and bouzouki have been part of the Trad scene for 40 years or more, so most if not all of the "issues" are well sorted at this stage. The role of the guitar in the music is clear if you listen to practically any recording made in the last two decades. IMHO to say trad music is "primarily about melody" misses the mark by an Irish Mile. irish dance music is about dance, be it the physical kind or just "in the head"
Razz2 you need to listen to what you say you're interested in and study the music a bit before you "dive in".
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Backer
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
There are eight million tunes in Irish music. Your best bet is to learn what chords go with what keys and learn to figure stuff out on the fly.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Newty, in xp, Windows Media Payer - go to View - Enhancements - Play Speed Settings, you can then adjust the slider control to get the desired speed. A quick method is to go to Play - Play Speed this gives slow, normal or fast options. Hope this is of some help.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by len
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
It's not helped by the fact that for a 32 bar tune, played 3 times through, just using triad chords (ie CEG for C) in the key of the tune (so no sneaky chromatic runs/diminshed passing chords etc etc) and assuming the guitarist can change chord twice a bar, there are (reaches for calculator) 1344 possible chords playable. Obviously, not all of the chords are gonna fit, but one man's dischord is another's harmony.......then if you factor in droning strings in DADGAD (most of which are completely undefinable in terms of the root note), the almost endless numbers of extensions you can stick onto the triads..........
Of course, I-IV-V stuff is pretty much the basis for it, and that's a good place to start. But as it's dance music, the rhythm is the most important part and an accompaniment.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Look, I love the guitar, and it adds a lot in certain situations. Obviously the guitar, bouzouki and bodhran are accepted in the music except by maybe the most rabid purists. I’m not one. On the other hand, the zouk and bodhran seem to fit in pretty seemlessly, while the guitar has had more mixed results. Fingerpicked DADGAD sounds great in the studio where you can mix it just right, but in a live un-mic’ed setting it seems to get lost. I think more great playing has been marred by overly-energetic guitar strumming – epsecially the kind where all you pick up is the slap of the pick against the strings, sort of a harmonic snare drum – than since Coleman’s piano player. Do I need to state that this is just my opinion?
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
42-y-o, or 42 years playing ?
A lot of answers, a lot of sense.
A little while ago I riled-up someone who said he was a musician of 30 years experience, and where could he get a bouzouki teacher in his area, and I expressed wonderment that he needed one with all that experience.
Are you just listening at home or have you found a session or two, because I recommend both as essential stepping stones - learn from others in the live action and practise at home with some recordings. Learn the modes, because I - IV - V won't be any help with Banish Misfortune, or The King of the Fairies. Remember that mnay musicians in this scene don't even know the key they're playing in, let alone the name of the tune, and even if they do it probably won't be exactly the same as the dots you can conjure up here. And that doesn't mean they're not s***hot, it's just not an essental part of being a competent musician in this genre.
Enjoy this new life, you have opened a door into a new world. Be prepared for a long and eventful voyage.
Oh, and it's not just chords you need, it's understanding the rhythms I've heard people suggest that is a ten-year quest in itself. Try doing the dances to the tunes, that is an essential part of understanding the rhythms, even though sessions have become rather detached from dancing, this is still, as O'Neill described it, "The Dance Music of Ireland".
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
razz2,
Check out the following site:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/
It's a virtual session, and you'll get a bunch of songs with the chords you're looking for.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by nofrets
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
What len said and what Pete said...Audacity lets you hit some hot keys so you can repeat a section or loop a section over and over to get it right.
Media player works fine as well, it's just not as 'complete' as Audacity and Audacity is free too.
I also meant to tell you to find a session somewhere close to you and join. Nothing takes the place of actually playing with others, and learning the tunes.
If you can record the tunes and take them home, slow them down and play along, you will progress at an amazing rate. Trust me!
Roger
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Pete,
I wasn't for a moment suggesting that I-IV-V is all you would need, just that it (and the harmonic theory stuff derived from the basic cadances) would cover you for about 50% of the tunes you'll hear, and this was fairly clear.... I think Banish Misfortune was a bad example by the way, just played the midi file and comped a kind of I-v-VI (thats a minor 5th as opposed to the major), not terribly interesting, but perfectly satisfactory!!
It's probably been suggested before, but would an "Accompaniment" section for each tune section be any use, then we could add suggested chord sequences, which at the very least would provide some interesting examples?
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Irish tunes are not like your normal conventional tunes,
not always based on arpeggios or chords and hitting a
big fat I major chord followed by IV or V major chord
is not always the best option, thinking "what are the right chords" is not the best way to view accompaniment.
Not always - but often.
You play a big fat D over a section where the fiddle player is consiously trying to flatten an F#, then you're ruining thing a bit.
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by BegF
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
Fidkid, Just to clarify and reinforce Backer.
If I'm not mistaken there are recordings of Hugie Gillespie (fiddle) being accompanied by guitar dating back to the 1930's.
So the whole idea of string accompaniment inflicting "Growing Pains" on the melodic poulation is absurd.
Guitar and bouzouki are well established in the tradition
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by Shtrum
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
ABCMus2.0 has a facility for automatically adding chords to a tune, and you can set it to various levels of "strangeness" from straightforward I-IV-V to extremely advanced stuff that would be meaningless in an ITM context.
When you have a tune loaded up into ABCMus click on the Tools windows, select "Chords", and go from there.
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
check out "Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar
by Frank Kilkelly" book/cd from Mel Bay. John Doyle's DVD is great as well
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by bobgordon
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
I'm not one to argue NO guitars, having one or three at home, but personally I changed to using bouzouki at a session, partly because I think one guitar is enough, and on 'zouk you have the options of playing the melody or an accompaniment that's not just chordal, but might also be partly audible in a noisy session that guitar melody will not.
Also, I believe guitar was introduced, into Shetland music at least, at the beginning of the 20th century. And then there's been the tradition of someone "driving the piano" at the older pub sessions, sometimes dubbed onto early fiddle recordings without even checking if the two are in pitch with each other.
However the tradition has always been melodic, but the harmony is indicated by the patterns, thus if you have a D, an F sharp, and an A in the first bar you might confidently assume the accompanying chord could be a D major. You just have to see wha seems to be the dominant notes, and which the passing ones. Sometimes this is easier by ear, I find, sometimes figuring it out from the dots. Practise......
3 chords for Banish Misfortune, eh ? I might try that out, but I suspect I'll prefer my D/C figures.
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
One of my best friends is a guitar. Allow me to backpedal a bit. I think it was presumtuous to even mention “tradition”, something I have no real right to invoke, and especially seeing as how most instruments were introduced, anyway. Folks must have been a little more accepting at one time, maybe?
Yet. Why do some instruments, the bouzouki is a great example, seem to “fit” so perfectly? It seems like the guitar has to work so much harder to fit in. There’s an approach to guitar that exists outside Irish trad that doesn’t seem to work (for me) inside Irish music. And I’m probably hung up here on my own shortcomings. It’s not like rhythm work in any other style I’ve ever played. The stuff that sounds good to me, I mean. One approach, the whole old timey/bluegrass boom chick boom chick --- bass note -- partial chord strum -- bass run to next chord -- strum ---works pretty well on hornpipes, and okay on a lot of reels as long as I punctuate the rhythm with rests. Jigs, slides, slip jigs get a lot trickier.
I do listen to folks like McGlynn, Sproule, Cahill, Doyle etc. who are incredible musicians. But I don’t always enjoy what they do. Just my preference. I’ll keep listening. I’ve grown to like things I intially didn’t, before this. Like, mm, bourbon.
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Chords? / Sample Recordings?
I suspect the reason bouzouki fits so easily into ITM is that the chords played on them frequently don't use thirds and the tunings facilitate this, either in fiddle tuning or any of the open or repeated tunings. This is probably because a lot of trad music isn't based upon chords/arpeggios, so the fewer "chord" notes used in accompaniment, the less likely they'll clash.
Pete, it's only a technicality (sorry), Amin7 = A/Cmaj etc but Amin is the V chord in Dmix, so effectively both chord sequences are the same, just the bass note that's different.
# Posted on May 29th 2006 by Andy V