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Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
This is a slightly different slant on the other thread.
In my last comment there, I stated that(for me) my general approach was to concentrate on learning tunes which I've heard and liked. This could be either be a conscious or unconscious (by osmosis) process. Of course, as I said, there might be other circumstances where I might be "required" to learn an unknown tune or one I didn't particularly like for a performance but these would be in the minority.
Now, all this is very well and suits me as I've been playing for a quite a while, even although I can still find myself in some situations where I know very little. Even then, though, I still resist the temptation to learn tunes just for the sake of it. I've really got to like them first.
How should beginners and "newbies" to Irish(or other traditional music) approach this? They've got to start somewhere and may not have heard that many tunes at this stage. Should they (I know many do) make a deliberate effort to learn specific sets and standard tunes, repertoires which are exclusive to a particular session and so on whether they actually know(yet) if they like the tunes or not? We get lots of enquiries here from people looking for "lists of tunes" but is this the best way to go?
For me, getting involved in sessions was a gradual thing and I had already been listening to the music for quite a while in sessions and elsewhere.
So, I already had several good tunes in my head which I wanted to play or learn. It wasn't just a case of buying an instrument and thinking "This looks good. I'd like to have a go at that!" which is an approach many beginners seem to have. I'm not knocking these people, of course, but I'm not sure if the "learn and play only those tunes you like" approach would necessarily be the best for them.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
So - get along to a session - listen to what they play - find one (one tune or one set) you like, and get learning that. End result - you play something you like and you can join in the session.
Whatever else you do, don't miss out on joining in the session because (you think) you're not good enough. Some people think they must learn lots of tunes up to some mythical standard BEFORE they can begin to join in the session. This is not the case. ( If you find a session where that is the case, then find a proper one instead)
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
I'd like to echo what showdadddadito (did I get that right?) said. I would suggest visiting sessions and at a break, complimenting the musicians. And you can never go wrong buying drinks! Record if you can -- ask first, always.
Play the recording in the car or while doing housework or whatever. If you're familiar with the tune, once you hunker down to learn it, you'll learn it quickly.
But, no; don't deprive yourself of the session experience just because you hardly know any tunes! Get in there and play those you do know, be pleasant and friendly and listen politely to those you don't to keep getting a feel for the music. The kinds of sessions you want to be at will accommodate at least somewhat to make you feel welcome, asking you what you do know and putting those tunes on the musical menu.
Play on! As Cat Stevens once sang, "There would be no war in the world/with everybody joining the band."
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
"Get along to a session-listen to what they play"
That's a good point you've made, Dave. It's important to learn tunes that will be "of use to you" if you wish to play in a particular session. Of course, that shouldn't deter you from learning tunes you like just because they might not feature at your local session. You'll always find a use for them sometime in the future.
Another aspect worth considering is what tunes should be *taught* to beginners. At ALP SMG and other courses, many tutors teach the students what they think they ought to be playing. Now, these might include some standards and well known tunes. On the other hand, they might include more obscure tunes taking the view that the students should be able to learn the well known tunes for themselves. Some tutors will indeed ask students for suggestions and tunes they might like to learn which, presumably, would be ones they like. The one problem with the latter approach if you are asking beginners is that these will often tend to be very trendy or fashionable pieces(The trad "hits" of the day) and this will give them a very limited view of traditional music and sessions in general are about.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
God, I haven't been here in an age, I've missed it. Hello everyone!
Good question John. As a relative beginner, 3yrs now, I think I can add something here.
When I started, I had been listening to Altan the most. Fell in love with all the tunes, and wished I could play like that. Picked up a fiddle and started lessons. Well. Needless to say, I didn't learn the Wild Irishman first. It was the Kerry Polka which, in comparison, was a bit disappointing. I started learning from Matt Cranitch's book. The tunes advance in difficulty, as the lessons are intended to increase technical skills as well as increase repertoire.
I've come a long way and have a long way to go. My best advice to start with: find a teacher. As far as tune selection, follow the example of Matt Cranitch. I'd say his book is an excellent resource. I might have given up defeated if I had tried to learn my favorites first, rather than tunes I could handle at each stage of development. 4000 more rolls and counting!
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Listen to as much ITM on radio, internet and cds as you can so you are in a better position to find out what you like to listen to and what sort of tunes you fancy trying to play.
Play along with a slower-down package on your pc then you can adjust it to your speed and your key.
In the early stages at least, put the instrument down and listen to as much as you can in sessions - you will pick up more listening and watching than trying to keep up.
Befriend a local player for tips or even better, get a group of like-minded players to meet and practise together - and invite the friendly neighourhood local player to come along and encourage / instruct.
The local player might also be useful for the names of tunes played so you can make a list, look then up and learn at home.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
So, we all agree listening comes before playing. I find internet radio programmes quite useful: you can familiarise yourself with different styles of various instruments, and it doesn't cost anything.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
I agree with the principle of listening to tunes at your local session and focusing on learning them, as being able to play with people is the joy of it.
However, I also find myself being far more discriminatory of the tunes I want to learn now, there are so many great tunes out there why bother learning the mediocre ones. Clearly, this is highly subjective and some tunes which are dull in one players hands (probably mine) will sound amazing when played by someone else. All the same I try to be more brutal about choosing tunes to learn now and only choose the ones that grab me.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Well actually slainte I dont agree completely. There is a definate possibility of overkill - im refering to people who say listen to as much music as you can and completely imerse yourself in all things Irish. I tried that approach briefly and found it a welcome relief to stick Virgin on the radio at work or a couple of pop/mainstream c.d's. I allways try to play/practice everyday but when I do miss a day I never feel I have lost any ground or a golden oppurtunity to advance my ability. I believe a rest only serves to sharpen the appetite.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Newty, I think we have two kinds of listening:
1. Listening to learn tunes
2. Listening to motivate yourself
It's natural to feel sick of diddly music when we listen to it too much. We surely need variety in life! I listen to French or German Baroque music on the wooden flute or viol as much as Irish music on the fiddle and pipes.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
What NEWTY said about taking a break for a day makes me think of when that's happened. The day after, when I do play, I always feel sort of, refreshed, like it's all new again, but in an 'I can do this' way rather than an 'I'm stale and my playing is terrible' way. So maybe a break for a day is a good idea. I don't think I would ever do it intentionally though (the time it did happen, I had left my box at school); it's far too much fun playing.
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
As a beginner, unable to get out much, how can I keep motivated and fresh? Have been playing 3 years and feeling a bit of apathy creeping in, wouldn't want to waste all the hard work put in so far...
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
would if I could but I caint, actually this web site is very good and has reenthused me. Am new to computers as well as Irish music, and computers are definately easier.
Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
This is a slightly different slant on the other thread.
In my last comment there, I stated that(for me) my general approach was to concentrate on learning tunes which I've heard and liked. This could be either be a conscious or unconscious (by osmosis) process. Of course, as I said, there might be other circumstances where I might be "required" to learn an unknown tune or one I didn't particularly like for a performance but these would be in the minority.
Now, all this is very well and suits me as I've been playing for a quite a while, even although I can still find myself in some situations where I know very little. Even then, though, I still resist the temptation to learn tunes just for the sake of it. I've really got to like them first.
How should beginners and "newbies" to Irish(or other traditional music) approach this? They've got to start somewhere and may not have heard that many tunes at this stage. Should they (I know many do) make a deliberate effort to learn specific sets and standard tunes, repertoires which are exclusive to a particular session and so on whether they actually know(yet) if they like the tunes or not? We get lots of enquiries here from people looking for "lists of tunes" but is this the best way to go?
For me, getting involved in sessions was a gradual thing and I had already been listening to the music for quite a while in sessions and elsewhere.
So, I already had several good tunes in my head which I wanted to play or learn. It wasn't just a case of buying an instrument and thinking "This looks good. I'd like to have a go at that!" which is an approach many beginners seem to have. I'm not knocking these people, of course, but I'm not sure if the "learn and play only those tunes you like" approach would necessarily be the best for them.
Any thoughts?
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
So - get along to a session - listen to what they play - find one (one tune or one set) you like, and get learning that. End result - you play something you like and you can join in the session.
Whatever else you do, don't miss out on joining in the session because (you think) you're not good enough. Some people think they must learn lots of tunes up to some mythical standard BEFORE they can begin to join in the session. This is not the case. ( If you find a session where that is the case, then find a proper one instead)
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
I'd like to echo what showdadddadito (did I get that right?) said. I would suggest visiting sessions and at a break, complimenting the musicians. And you can never go wrong buying drinks! Record if you can -- ask first, always.
Play the recording in the car or while doing housework or whatever. If you're familiar with the tune, once you hunker down to learn it, you'll learn it quickly.
But, no; don't deprive yourself of the session experience just because you hardly know any tunes! Get in there and play those you do know, be pleasant and friendly and listen politely to those you don't to keep getting a feel for the music. The kinds of sessions you want to be at will accommodate at least somewhat to make you feel welcome, asking you what you do know and putting those tunes on the musical menu.
Play on! As Cat Stevens once sang, "There would be no war in the world/with everybody joining the band."
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
"Get along to a session-listen to what they play"
That's a good point you've made, Dave. It's important to learn tunes that will be "of use to you" if you wish to play in a particular session. Of course, that shouldn't deter you from learning tunes you like just because they might not feature at your local session. You'll always find a use for them sometime in the future.
Another aspect worth considering is what tunes should be *taught* to beginners. At ALP SMG and other courses, many tutors teach the students what they think they ought to be playing. Now, these might include some standards and well known tunes. On the other hand, they might include more obscure tunes taking the view that the students should be able to learn the well known tunes for themselves. Some tutors will indeed ask students for suggestions and tunes they might like to learn which, presumably, would be ones they like. The one problem with the latter approach if you are asking beginners is that these will often tend to be very trendy or fashionable pieces(The trad "hits" of the day) and this will give them a very limited view of traditional music and sessions in general are about.
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
God, I haven't been here in an age, I've missed it. Hello everyone!
Good question John. As a relative beginner, 3yrs now, I think I can add something here.
When I started, I had been listening to Altan the most. Fell in love with all the tunes, and wished I could play like that. Picked up a fiddle and started lessons. Well. Needless to say, I didn't learn the Wild Irishman first. It was the Kerry Polka which, in comparison, was a bit disappointing. I started learning from Matt Cranitch's book. The tunes advance in difficulty, as the lessons are intended to increase technical skills as well as increase repertoire.
I've come a long way and have a long way to go. My best advice to start with: find a teacher. As far as tune selection, follow the example of Matt Cranitch. I'd say his book is an excellent resource. I might have given up defeated if I had tried to learn my favorites first, rather than tunes I could handle at each stage of development. 4000 more rolls and counting!
Deb.
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Listen to as much ITM on radio, internet and cds as you can so you are in a better position to find out what you like to listen to and what sort of tunes you fancy trying to play.
Play along with a slower-down package on your pc then you can adjust it to your speed and your key.
In the early stages at least, put the instrument down and listen to as much as you can in sessions - you will pick up more listening and watching than trying to keep up.
Befriend a local player for tips or even better, get a group of like-minded players to meet and practise together - and invite the friendly neighourhood local player to come along and encourage / instruct.
The local player might also be useful for the names of tunes played so you can make a list, look then up and learn at home.
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
So, we all agree listening comes before playing. I find internet radio programmes quite useful: you can familiarise yourself with different styles of various instruments, and it doesn't cost anything.
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by slainte
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Geoff
I put an instrument down once and someone nicked it!
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by gedpipes
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
I agree with the principle of listening to tunes at your local session and focusing on learning them, as being able to play with people is the joy of it.
However, I also find myself being far more discriminatory of the tunes I want to learn now, there are so many great tunes out there why bother learning the mediocre ones. Clearly, this is highly subjective and some tunes which are dull in one players hands (probably mine) will sound amazing when played by someone else. All the same I try to be more brutal about choosing tunes to learn now and only choose the ones that grab me.
NIck
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by nick b
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Well actually slainte I dont agree completely. There is a definate possibility of overkill - im refering to people who say listen to as much music as you can and completely imerse yourself in all things Irish. I tried that approach briefly and found it a welcome relief to stick Virgin on the radio at work or a couple of pop/mainstream c.d's. I allways try to play/practice everyday but when I do miss a day I never feel I have lost any ground or a golden oppurtunity to advance my ability. I believe a rest only serves to sharpen the appetite.
# Posted on May 23rd 2006 by Newty
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
Newty, I think we have two kinds of listening:
1. Listening to learn tunes
2. Listening to motivate yourself
It's natural to feel sick of diddly music when we listen to it too much. We surely need variety in life! I listen to French or German Baroque music on the wooden flute or viol as much as Irish music on the fiddle and pipes.
# Posted on May 24th 2006 by slainte
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
"They" should choose tunes to learn in a way that suits their personality.
# Posted on May 24th 2006 by SL*
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
What NEWTY said about taking a break for a day makes me think of when that's happened. The day after, when I do play, I always feel sort of, refreshed, like it's all new again, but in an 'I can do this' way rather than an 'I'm stale and my playing is terrible' way. So maybe a break for a day is a good idea. I don't think I would ever do it intentionally though (the time it did happen, I had left my box at school); it's far too much fun playing.
# Posted on May 24th 2006 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
As a beginner, unable to get out much, how can I keep motivated and fresh? Have been playing 3 years and feeling a bit of apathy creeping in, wouldn't want to waste all the hard work put in so far...
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by angela2
Re: Learning/Not learning tunes. Advice for beginners or "newbies" to traditional music.
would if I could but I caint, actually this web site is very good and has reenthused me. Am new to computers as well as Irish music, and computers are definately easier.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by angela2