Sitting here after reading the dicussion on learning a second instrument in ITM, i am wondering what instrument people find the most difficult to learn. I suppose some of you will not find this discussion very interesting or beneficial but i would appreciate it if you multi-instument genius' out there could satisfy my curiosity.
Thanks
At first I too found the anglo concertina to be difficult. But after several years of playing and classes with Noel Hill, I have begun to make progress. Now the challenge seems to be one of style, rather than figuring out where all the notes are. At least I don't have to tune my instrument as I do when I play my Irish harp!
I looked up the bandoneon once when i was interested in Tango, and i think someone has to be insane to even contemplate learning how to play that. It's like a big concertina designed by a madman on a caffeine high. It sounds pretty, though...
I think difficulty is an individual thing, some people are more inclined towards a certain instrument or instrument family. Some people are naturals at certain instruments, other people bust their hump just to sound mediocre. Just from a playing around with some instruments - I think it's much harder to figure out a tune on a fiddle than on a whistle. It's just that the whistle is a major scale in a linear fashion & the fiddle is broken up in 5ths (well 4ths when you look at it in first position [with no holes or frets]) so it's just more work to find the notes. I think that the guitar is a fairly easy instrument, but backing up tunes well is really hard. If your just talking about the initial "sounding like poo" stage, I think pipes & fiddle would come in first - but it's how far you take it. Even the didge-a-ma-whoos-it can be taken seriously (well at least be the stinky hippy who's "playing" it) well on second thought....
Here here, macsheoinin! Well said. (same in language acquisition)
It sure is discouraging, though, to think that playing any instrument is so difficult that my deepest fear of never becoming proficient on any one of them will play out. How is it that someone can love music so much, yet never express it adequately in an instrument? Age? Too many life distractions and responsibilities? Not being talented enough? What's enough?
Linda, that fear haunts my every waking moment! I go back and forth, some days cursing how far I still have to go to sound the way I want to, and other days surprised by how far that same attitude has taken me--that I sound good enough to play in public, say. In other words, if we were satisfied with our musical ability on an instrument, would we continue to improve? I doubt it. But it *is* hell to hear a better sound in your imagination than what comes out of the instrument in your hands....
Playing music is supposed to be joyfull. There is a balace between serious and play that should be kept. (*play*-ing music)
Sometimes when I play I think it sounds so nice. But I know that Martin Hayes, Grainne Hambly, etc. sound even nicer. Just keep on keeping on, have fun and rejoice in the simple beauty you can make at the level you are at--you'll get ther eventually--if you approach it with love, not fear. It's the journey, not the destination!
For many years I had a music student with classical flute training who kept bouncing from one instrument to another. She built up a small collection of squeezeboxes, and struggled and worked hard with all of them, managing to reach a certain level of proficiency, but never got to the other side of the curve with any one instrument. The piano accordion may have been particularly frustrating because Bootsie is a southpaw. In 1998 she got a hankering to learn banjo, managed to find a used left-handed model, and we began clawhammer banjo lessons. After the first few lessons it became evident that Bootsie had finally found the right instrument. She expressed it like this:
"You know, all the squeezeboxes and flutes and whistles are just great. They make wonderful music and each one has its own personality -- I really love the Bat Box (her favorite accordion) and my concertinas . . .
BUT THE BANJO LOVES ME BACK!!"
Instruments are not at all difficult to learn; anyone can learn any instrument they want to. But all instruments, even the kazoo, have a varying difficulty to master them. I have personally found the uilleann pipes to be the most difficult to manipulate, and for classical instruments, the french horn. I have learned both of them, but have not yet been able to master either of them.
It's so nice to be psycho-analyzed as phobic *and* disparaged as part of an inferior group all in one breath, especially when all I was trying to do was empathize with someone else who neatly expressed a frustration not unknown to musicians (or anyone who passionately wants to be good at something for that matter).
Sure, I was exaggerating (my waking moments are actually filled with life, and a quite happy one, thank you), but I think it helps to acknowledge that some of us have faced the same challenges of learning an instrument and wondering whether we could ever make it sing.
So in the absence of winking emoticons or parenthetical chuckles, do we take you seriously Mr. Gill? You never experience self-doubt? If so, your self-righteous attitude reminds me of Somerset Maugham's quip: "Only a mediocre person is always at his best." Lol!
Ha ha Will. I love it.
Well. Hmmm
I stick by the fear comment. I have never been frightened, and nor should anyone. Embrace it, love the struggle, laugh at the struggle, it doesn't bite.
As for being self righteous? Well yes I probably am (which is a bit annoying I admit). Maugham's clever quip reminds me of a thread we've been down before (I know you've banned me from this but you force me back in). "It doesn't take the best of efforts to play a mediocre form off music"
Michael--would you agree to using the words "less complicated" (less complicated than jazz or classical, I guess) instead of the word "mediocre". The word mediocre seems to imply the tunes were not created to be as well-formed, beautiful, etc. as they could have been. (although, I am sure there are a few that may fit that description.) It almost hurts my feelings to say the entire body of ITM is mediocre.
Still, it’s an interesting thing to debate: the role of fear or fearlessness in music. I suspect the two combatants are not intellectually so far apart on this one as they think. I hope not, anyway.
Amongst the giants in trad music, “fearlessness” might be the description you’d use on a player like, say, Liz Carroll, who attacks tough passages and munches on their bones. An artist like, say, Kevin Burke, may have a more circumspect style that yields subtlety, maybe, more than it yields savagery.
But I don’t think fear and fearlessness necessarily applies to us mere mortals the same way. I think for those of us who might still be considered students of ITM, fear can be a great motivator, as Will suggests, or a great obstacle, as Michael implies.
I myself have the fortitude of an amoeba, but I’d have to say I come in closer to Michael’s argument: I’m not really afraid of ITM. That’s not to say that I’m the tiger that Liz Carroll. Fact is, I play badly. I know it, and I do my best to correct it, but, at the end of the day, when I still stink, I tend to shrug it off. I and the people I play with — we’ll play some tune and one or most or all of us will destroy it, and we’ll all have a good laugh and then move onto the next piece, which, hopefully, goes a bit better. I’m not saying that I’m bolder than Will, or that my approach is superior; indeed, I can see the argument that my way is worse. But really, I think the “care” we take when play manifests itself differently in each of us, and differently for each of the challenges we face. I’m absolutely lily-livered when it comes to to make something out of wood, for example. I’m scared of every saw-stroke, that I’ll ruin the work before I even start it. But I feel less nervous about music, which dissolves immediately into the atmosphere to be heard no more, so I can’t be held quite so accountable.
In any case, we are what we are, and whatever that is, we get our results as we get our results. I don’t think Michael is trying to imply he plays better than everyone else; in fact, I’ve never heard him claim to be wonderful or even good. I think he’s just wired in such a way that he’s more inclined, like I am, to shrug off his musical failures than to fret about them. But Michael’s approach isn’t virtue incarnate. He can’t help it, nor can Will, any more than any of us can try to be taller, or more curly-headed. We is what we is, isn’t we?
I’d also like to state that I agree with Michael’s assessment that ITM is simple music. I can’t play it well, but that isn’t because it’s complex or especially difficult. I’m just clumsy, heavy-handed and slow-witted. Those characteristics come into play even more in some of the more complex, difficult musical forms. I mean, I think running is simpler than ballet; I can’t do ballet at all, but when I run, I am just as much involved in the act of running as any champion who ever lived, even though I’m fat, slow, out-of-breath and limping grievously on both legs. That’s because running is easy. Running well? Not so easy.
Am I wrong?
Cuchulain, I guess I was exaggerating about my "fear" that my actual playing would never sound as sublime as what I hear in my imagination, and maybe "fear" was the wrong word to use. My point was to reassure Linda (and anyone else) that if you're familiar with that particular form insecurity, you can channel it to improve your playing, rather than being stymied by it.
Obviously, when I'm in the throes of playing the tunes, I don't have an inner voice criticizing my every note and nuance. That's when it's important to be caught up in the moment. Fearless? I don't know if I would go that far, because I admire a sense of vulnerability and generosity in a musician. But while playing, it's certainly healthy to turn off the internal editor. I heard that before a concert, Martin Hayes once said, with a worried look, "I hope I play well enough so these people feel they got their money's worth." Every musician I've ever known has had a twinge of insecurity now and then, some more than others.
My objection to Michael's posts is that he apparently doesn't know how to turn his internal editor *on* and say things in a more constructive, encouraging way. I'm tired of watching most of us be put on the defensive, especially when we're trying to talk about music--something I do for *fun* and social enjoyment, and something that works better when our emotional guard doesn't have to be on high alert. It's just way too negative a tone for what used to be a friendly, encouraging, funny site. Most of us take pains to give each other the benefit of the doubt and empathize even when we disagree. Now, we waste time and space defending ourselves like this--time I'd rather spend doing something productive.
Ta,
Shannon Heaton once told me that John Williams used to beat himself up (okay, not too much, "beat himself up" is probably an exaggeration, but enough so's you'd notice) after a concert -- a missed note there, not quite perfect phrasing here, whatever. I like knowing that those sorts of things still bother people who are far better players than I; it makes me feel that there's a chance that people might someday be willing to listen to me make the same kinds of mistakes yet still be able to respect me as much as I respect players like Martin Hayes and John Williams.
That story's apocryphal: John Williams never missed a note in his life! He was beating himself up for mistakes that we mere mortals aren't even good enough to make!
I'm not going back on my previous posting in this discussion but I would think that the solo classical guitar comes very high up the list of "difficult" instruments, because if you fluff a note you have absolutely nowhere to hide. Once the fingernail strikes the string that's it, there's no going back. I know. I've been there, many years ago.
On most other instruments you can usually contrive something to cover up or minimise a misbowed, misfingered or misblown note, but not on the classical guitar.
Most difficult instrument
Most difficult instrument
Sitting here after reading the dicussion on learning a second instrument in ITM, i am wondering what instrument people find the most difficult to learn. I suppose some of you will not find this discussion very interesting or beneficial but i would appreciate it if you multi-instument genius' out there could satisfy my curiosity.
Thanks
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Celtic1234
Re: Most difficult instrument
Maybe the Uillian pipes might be the most difficult to control?
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Kenn
Re: Most difficult instrument
I tried the Anglo concertina--very confusing, but a lot of fun!
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by whistlemanhimself
Re: Most difficult instrument
At first I too found the anglo concertina to be difficult. But after several years of playing and classes with Noel Hill, I have begun to make progress. Now the challenge seems to be one of style, rather than figuring out where all the notes are. At least I don't have to tune my instrument as I do when I play my Irish harp!
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by SFKiwi
Re: Most difficult instrument
I looked up the bandoneon once when i was interested in Tango, and i think someone has to be insane to even contemplate learning how to play that. It's like a big concertina designed by a madman on a caffeine high. It sounds pretty, though...
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: Most difficult instrument
I think difficulty is an individual thing, some people are more inclined towards a certain instrument or instrument family. Some people are naturals at certain instruments, other people bust their hump just to sound mediocre. Just from a playing around with some instruments - I think it's much harder to figure out a tune on a fiddle than on a whistle. It's just that the whistle is a major scale in a linear fashion & the fiddle is broken up in 5ths (well 4ths when you look at it in first position [with no holes or frets]) so it's just more work to find the notes. I think that the guitar is a fairly easy instrument, but backing up tunes well is really hard. If your just talking about the initial "sounding like poo" stage, I think pipes & fiddle would come in first - but it's how far you take it. Even the didge-a-ma-whoos-it can be taken seriously (well at least be the stinky hippy who's "playing" it) well on second thought....
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Most difficult instrument
All instruments are equally difficult if you take them to a high enough level, i.e. when one's own personal level of incompetence kicks in!
m
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Most difficult instrument
Here here, macsheoinin! Well said. (same in language acquisition)
It sure is discouraging, though, to think that playing any instrument is so difficult that my deepest fear of never becoming proficient on any one of them will play out. How is it that someone can love music so much, yet never express it adequately in an instrument? Age? Too many life distractions and responsibilities? Not being talented enough? What's enough?
Just a wandering thought.
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by linda
Re: Most difficult instrument
Linda, that fear haunts my every waking moment! I go back and forth, some days cursing how far I still have to go to sound the way I want to, and other days surprised by how far that same attitude has taken me--that I sound good enough to play in public, say. In other words, if we were satisfied with our musical ability on an instrument, would we continue to improve? I doubt it. But it *is* hell to hear a better sound in your imagination than what comes out of the instrument in your hands....
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Most difficult instrument
That's the problem with you lot.
Fear
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by ...
Re: Most difficult instrument
Playing music is supposed to be joyfull. There is a balace between serious and play that should be kept. (*play*-ing music)
Sometimes when I play I think it sounds so nice. But I know that Martin Hayes, Grainne Hambly, etc. sound even nicer. Just keep on keeping on, have fun and rejoice in the simple beauty you can make at the level you are at--you'll get ther eventually--if you approach it with love, not fear. It's the journey, not the destination!
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Andee
Re: Most difficult instrument
For many years I had a music student with classical flute training who kept bouncing from one instrument to another. She built up a small collection of squeezeboxes, and struggled and worked hard with all of them, managing to reach a certain level of proficiency, but never got to the other side of the curve with any one instrument. The piano accordion may have been particularly frustrating because Bootsie is a southpaw. In 1998 she got a hankering to learn banjo, managed to find a used left-handed model, and we began clawhammer banjo lessons. After the first few lessons it became evident that Bootsie had finally found the right instrument. She expressed it like this:
"You know, all the squeezeboxes and flutes and whistles are just great. They make wonderful music and each one has its own personality -- I really love the Bat Box (her favorite accordion) and my concertinas . . .
BUT THE BANJO LOVES ME BACK!!"
--
Wendina
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by klezmusic
Re: Most difficult instrument
To quote Richard Gross, creator of the Fingerings for the Tinwhistle website:
"There are three factors -- steps, if you like -- to consider in deciding if you are a great musician. Those items are:
Item #1: If you are making a noise -- any noise at all -- you are a musician.
Item #2: If you are happy with the noise you are making, you are a good musician.
Item #3: If other people are happy with the noise you are making, you are a great musician."
Taking this into account, the most difficult instrument has to be the Bodhran.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Bodhran
Why? People usually get to #2 within 2 minutes of picking up the thing!
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by glauber
Re: Most difficult instrument
Instruments are not at all difficult to learn; anyone can learn any instrument they want to. But all instruments, even the kazoo, have a varying difficulty to master them. I have personally found the uilleann pipes to be the most difficult to manipulate, and for classical instruments, the french horn. I have learned both of them, but have not yet been able to master either of them.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by Paddy
Fear
Heh, I see Michael's back to his old self.
It's so nice to be psycho-analyzed as phobic *and* disparaged as part of an inferior group all in one breath, especially when all I was trying to do was empathize with someone else who neatly expressed a frustration not unknown to musicians (or anyone who passionately wants to be good at something for that matter).
Sure, I was exaggerating (my waking moments are actually filled with life, and a quite happy one, thank you), but I think it helps to acknowledge that some of us have faced the same challenges of learning an instrument and wondering whether we could ever make it sing.
So in the absence of winking emoticons or parenthetical chuckles, do we take you seriously Mr. Gill? You never experience self-doubt? If so, your self-righteous attitude reminds me of Somerset Maugham's quip: "Only a mediocre person is always at his best." Lol!
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Most difficult instrument
Ha ha Will. I love it.
Well. Hmmm
I stick by the fear comment. I have never been frightened, and nor should anyone. Embrace it, love the struggle, laugh at the struggle, it doesn't bite.
As for being self righteous? Well yes I probably am (which is a bit annoying I admit). Maugham's clever quip reminds me of a thread we've been down before (I know you've banned me from this but you force me back in). "It doesn't take the best of efforts to play a mediocre form off music"
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by ...
Re: Most difficult instrument
Michael--would you agree to using the words "less complicated" (less complicated than jazz or classical, I guess) instead of the word "mediocre". The word mediocre seems to imply the tunes were not created to be as well-formed, beautiful, etc. as they could have been. (although, I am sure there are a few that may fit that description.) It almost hurts my feelings to say the entire body of ITM is mediocre.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by Andee
Re: Most difficult instrument
Yeah sure, Less complicated is a fine description. I don't mean to imply worse. We've been through this before, Simpler does not mean worse
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by ...
Re: Most difficult instrument
Thanks, Michael--we're still friends...
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Andee
Re: Most difficult instrument
All hail Mr. Gill, fearless and all knowing....
What a tiresome waste of time.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Most difficult instrument
Still, it’s an interesting thing to debate: the role of fear or fearlessness in music. I suspect the two combatants are not intellectually so far apart on this one as they think. I hope not, anyway.
Amongst the giants in trad music, “fearlessness” might be the description you’d use on a player like, say, Liz Carroll, who attacks tough passages and munches on their bones. An artist like, say, Kevin Burke, may have a more circumspect style that yields subtlety, maybe, more than it yields savagery.
But I don’t think fear and fearlessness necessarily applies to us mere mortals the same way. I think for those of us who might still be considered students of ITM, fear can be a great motivator, as Will suggests, or a great obstacle, as Michael implies.
I myself have the fortitude of an amoeba, but I’d have to say I come in closer to Michael’s argument: I’m not really afraid of ITM. That’s not to say that I’m the tiger that Liz Carroll. Fact is, I play badly. I know it, and I do my best to correct it, but, at the end of the day, when I still stink, I tend to shrug it off. I and the people I play with — we’ll play some tune and one or most or all of us will destroy it, and we’ll all have a good laugh and then move onto the next piece, which, hopefully, goes a bit better. I’m not saying that I’m bolder than Will, or that my approach is superior; indeed, I can see the argument that my way is worse. But really, I think the “care” we take when play manifests itself differently in each of us, and differently for each of the challenges we face. I’m absolutely lily-livered when it comes to to make something out of wood, for example. I’m scared of every saw-stroke, that I’ll ruin the work before I even start it. But I feel less nervous about music, which dissolves immediately into the atmosphere to be heard no more, so I can’t be held quite so accountable.
In any case, we are what we are, and whatever that is, we get our results as we get our results. I don’t think Michael is trying to imply he plays better than everyone else; in fact, I’ve never heard him claim to be wonderful or even good. I think he’s just wired in such a way that he’s more inclined, like I am, to shrug off his musical failures than to fret about them. But Michael’s approach isn’t virtue incarnate. He can’t help it, nor can Will, any more than any of us can try to be taller, or more curly-headed. We is what we is, isn’t we?
I’d also like to state that I agree with Michael’s assessment that ITM is simple music. I can’t play it well, but that isn’t because it’s complex or especially difficult. I’m just clumsy, heavy-handed and slow-witted. Those characteristics come into play even more in some of the more complex, difficult musical forms. I mean, I think running is simpler than ballet; I can’t do ballet at all, but when I run, I am just as much involved in the act of running as any champion who ever lived, even though I’m fat, slow, out-of-breath and limping grievously on both legs. That’s because running is easy. Running well? Not so easy.
Am I wrong?
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Most difficult instrument
Cuchulain, I guess I was exaggerating about my "fear" that my actual playing would never sound as sublime as what I hear in my imagination, and maybe "fear" was the wrong word to use. My point was to reassure Linda (and anyone else) that if you're familiar with that particular form insecurity, you can channel it to improve your playing, rather than being stymied by it.
Obviously, when I'm in the throes of playing the tunes, I don't have an inner voice criticizing my every note and nuance. That's when it's important to be caught up in the moment. Fearless? I don't know if I would go that far, because I admire a sense of vulnerability and generosity in a musician. But while playing, it's certainly healthy to turn off the internal editor. I heard that before a concert, Martin Hayes once said, with a worried look, "I hope I play well enough so these people feel they got their money's worth." Every musician I've ever known has had a twinge of insecurity now and then, some more than others.
My objection to Michael's posts is that he apparently doesn't know how to turn his internal editor *on* and say things in a more constructive, encouraging way. I'm tired of watching most of us be put on the defensive, especially when we're trying to talk about music--something I do for *fun* and social enjoyment, and something that works better when our emotional guard doesn't have to be on high alert. It's just way too negative a tone for what used to be a friendly, encouraging, funny site. Most of us take pains to give each other the benefit of the doubt and empathize even when we disagree. Now, we waste time and space defending ourselves like this--time I'd rather spend doing something productive.
Ta,
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Most difficult instrument
Shannon Heaton once told me that John Williams used to beat himself up (okay, not too much, "beat himself up" is probably an exaggeration, but enough so's you'd notice) after a concert -- a missed note there, not quite perfect phrasing here, whatever. I like knowing that those sorts of things still bother people who are far better players than I; it makes me feel that there's a chance that people might someday be willing to listen to me make the same kinds of mistakes yet still be able to respect me as much as I respect players like Martin Hayes and John Williams.
zls
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Most difficult instrument
That story's apocryphal: John Williams never missed a note in his life! He was beating himself up for mistakes that we mere mortals aren't even good enough to make!
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Most difficult instrument
There's needling, and then there's needling. I'm with Will on that one.
# Posted on October 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Most difficult instrument
Will, I'm glad your not really scared
# Posted on October 30th 2002 by ...
Re: Most difficult instrument
I'm not going back on my previous posting in this discussion but I would think that the solo classical guitar comes very high up the list of "difficult" instruments, because if you fluff a note you have absolutely nowhere to hide. Once the fingernail strikes the string that's it, there's no going back. I know. I've been there, many years ago.
On most other instruments you can usually contrive something to cover up or minimise a misbowed, misfingered or misblown note, but not on the classical guitar.
m
# Posted on October 30th 2002 by Trevor Jennings