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Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Hi all: I am an old school learner who prefers learning by ear, seconded by that old fashioned cassette recorder. That was when I started the fiddle 20 years ago...
I was advised to invest in a mini-disc recorder by a new teacher for my beginning lessons on the box. I looked at web sites on these things, but am wondering can I download recorded music onto my PC so that I can use the new SlowGold program which I found out about on this site and have fallen in love with? Is it fairly simple? I just got laid off and have time but need to watch the money..can't be blindly impulsive.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I've heard that mini-disc recorders are very heavy on batteries, which is the main reason why I don't use one. Perhaps you should check out battery usage with people who use them regularly. It's possible the latest generation are more efficient than the ones of a few years ago. The big advantage of these toys is that you can upload onto a PC quickly.
I still stick with an Akai cassette recorder with an external stero mic. The main disadvantage is that uploading onto a PC can only be done in real time, although I usually put the wait to good use by picking up my fiddle. However, the batteries last for weeks.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I'm an old-schooler too and a very late adopter of minidiscs - I bought a new Sony model this year. Contrary to what macsheoinin says, the load on the batteries seems to be very light. You have hours of use from a single AA battery. My unit comes with a rechargeable battery and a charging unit, and if you need spares an AA battery or two is easy to carry around.
Also contrary to what macsheonin says, you can NOT upload quickly to a PC. You can only upload in real time by recording via your sound card. Sony, the inventors of the technology, built this in from the start for copy-protection purposes (they have a foot in two camps, since they make recording hardware but own a lot of music too). A well-organized campaign of pleas from minidisc users for a change in this policy has fallen on deaf ears.
On units with the Sony "NET-MD" interface, you can dump stuff from your PC (not Mac) onto the minidisc very quickly via a USB cable.
A drawback of Sony units is that setting the manual recording level (rather than using automatic) involves a lot of button-pushing every time.
Also you must set Sony recorders to append to the end of the disc since by default they overwrite existing material! Fortunately you don't have to do this every time.
They're a bit of a leap from cassette recorders, but worth it IMO. The recording quality is pretty amazing. If you use the automatic recording level in a quietish room it picks up stuff that you can't hear with the naked ear!
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
True, the old Sony mini-disk recorders eats batteries like popcorn, but the later models are much better about that. Still, the old tape recorder will likely be more energy efficient no matter what. If quality isn't a concern, a casset recorder should do just fine.
With some mini-disks, you can do a direct transfer of the digital data to your computer via optical cable (careful on that one! most models are optical IN and you want optical OUT!). However, doing a simple audio transfer works very well, so I can't recommend paying the extra money.
Either way, you'll still need a 'widget' to connect your tape player or mini-disk player to your computer and the best place to go to get one is your super/mega/huge music store such as Mars Music and talk to one of the techies about what you plan to do. They've got all the digital gadgets that will allow you to input .WAV files to your computer.
Next, you'll need some audio software so you can create tracks and monitor your input levels. Plenty of shareware available to do that.
Lastly, a 50 dollar pre-amp from radio shack will have to be plugged in while you input your music. The signal from the recorders need to be boosted!
I'd be more specific about my setup, but I'm a Mac user and don't know the equivilant software/hardware for PCs!
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Yes the new Sony recorder is very good on batteries and great for recording, I use a Sont Mini disk deck to input directly into the computer via the Soundblaster card. Goldwave is good shareware and you can download it from www.goldwave.com
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I've managed to transfer from minidisc to PC without anything more widgetty than a minijack-to-minijack cable.
I haven't found a pre-amp to be necessary either, although you have to remember to turn the output volume up (the connection is via the headphone socket), particularly if your software allows you to boost the level of the entire track.
However some low-level white noise does creep in when I upload to the PC... would a pre-amp would help with that, Caoimghgin? (People do pick awkward handles to type, I've a mind to call you Kev).
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Sure Steve, Kev is fine. Can I call you Bro?
I should qualify all statements by saying, my Mac does not have a sound card (or the capablity to install one. It's an iCube) so I transfer through the USB port via the afore mentioned 'widget'! A good sound card would be a more standard way of doing that.
As far as the white-noise is concerned, that could be a lot of things, (bad sound card, cables, minidisk player, microphone, etc).
A good start would be to buy some gold plated cables (now standard at Radio Shack). It's the cheapest of all solutions and it might take care of the noise altogether.
I don't know if you need a pre-amp Steve. Seems like everything works just fine for you. If you monitor the levels with a software package as you record to disk and the signal can hit the red zone, then you've got plenty of signal to work with.
Say, about that Optical out feature. Does that carry digital data or is it analog still? Just realized I don't know for sure.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
When you transfer from the minidisc to PC through the sound card, you're converting from digital to analog and back to digital. Some noise is bound to creep in, and keep in mind that the quality of the A/D conversion in the PC's sound card is less than professional. But, sometimes it's the best you can do.
I'm sure the industry could come with real great solutions to read a minidisk directly in the PC, etc, but remember that the industry is very interested in keeping these things hard (or impossible or illegal) to do, so that we still have to go to them for high-quality recordings. They got burned by CD burners.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Hey guys, I hope I don't come off as ignorant, but all of this technology--and I know it's just tools--puts me off. It is expensive, and once you get sucked in, it just goes from there--you have to have the latest this or that, and it has to be compliant with this or that computer, set up, microphone, etc. I feel that it really can waste a lot of time, money, etc. (we only just got our first computer several months ago.) I think our ears are the best and most reliable and inexpensive technology on the market.
I admit, I may be a little snobby about it, too--sometimes it seems the most tech-savvy people don't really benefit from all of those gadgets--maybe there's not enough time left to practice after all of those wires and batteries are all hooked up...
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
My friend has a sony mini-disk & I highly recomend it. It's pretty good on batteries & he also has a ac adapter so he can plug it in the wall. I would get one if I could justify it's use. I'm fine & happy with my radio-shack tape recorder (has half speed on it), it's just less work. With the mini-disk you need to do a lot more stuff, with a tape recorder you just hit record when you hear a good tune. The sound quality isn't nearly as nice, but it's not so bad that I can't figure the tune out. I've also learned tunes from the rte downloads which sound like a gramaphone being played through a telephone & played back through a chorus pedal. Not exactly easy listening but for learning purposes I don't care as long as I can get the tune out of it. It's all up to you - if you have the extra money than go for it, but it won't impede your learning tunes.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Thanks everybody for putting me straight about battery life in minidisc recorders - things have evidently moved on since I last considered the device a couple of years ago. On the downloading side I was inadvertently confusing the minidisc recorder (which I've never actually used) with the web camera I use occasionally in workshops. It has a 128MB memory card and records sound along with the video for up to about 25 minutes - not great quality but ok for learning purposes. The point I was making is that this particular toy downloads everything to the PC via usb cable in a very short time.
Whichever device you use for recording it is important for the best results to use an external mic; the internal mic of the tape recorder/minidisc etc will invariably pick up motor noise and mechanical noise from a cassette and this will be accentuated when things are relatively quiet.
For the record, the software I use for editing my recordings is Cooledit by Syntrillium. Not too expensive and easy to use, with a impressive list of add-on features.
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I have a minidisc recorder and find it great and I find it ok on batteries too. The playback sound is much better than a cassette. My tutor plays my tunes onto it so that i can learn by ear and i also have transferred the tunes (which he plays at various speeds) on to cd via my computer. I can then listen to the tunes in the car also which i find very useful. I bought a very small Sony microphone for it which is great for recording at concerts( i probably should'nt admit this!). I used it at a recent Christy Moore concert via my inside pocket and the end reult is fantastic. I have it on cd now which i promise i will not copy for anybody. The only problem is here and there on the cd my girlfriend can be heard asking me "which one is Donal Lunny?" .
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
A caveat about recording at concerts & gigs (for one's own private and personal use only, of course). Try to keep well away from any sound stage and other electrical equipment (including power supply cables) which may be used by the band. Stray electrical and magnetic fields emitted by powerful equipment so often used will probably ruin your recording.
Celtic1234, I have found that with a decent sound editor, such as the one I've mentioned previously, unwanted noises can usually be edited out or reduced to such a low level that they don't obtrude. In pub gigs, it's usually easy to edit out the clink of beer glasses if they are too much of a nuisance.
I was recording a baptism in a church once and on the playback I could hear the very obtrusive click-clack of high heels walking along the marble floor over the other side of the church. I was able to edit out these click-clacks without noticeably altering the recording of the priest's voice. Interestingly, though, faint ghostly echoes of the heels remained, walking down the church, apparently with no origin!
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I can't believe a mini disk would need to be loaded analog to the computer. Defeats the whole purpose. It needs to use the USB port, or all is lost.
-dogma
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I believe (as said above) the MiniDisk digital format isn't something that can be downloaded directly. What's more, even if you could download the 1's and 0's, there wouldn't be any programs that could interpret since the format is proprietary (and Sony doesn't want you to do that). No big deal, really. MD2HD (minidisk to hard drive) transfers are free of any noise or quality degredation even going throught the audio out of the MD player.
BTW, I do use USB to do the transfers, but the USB is only interpreting analog signals, not directly reading the disk. I suspect the optical out would do the same thing, but be interpreted by the 'widget'.
The USB Audio Interface (or 'widget') I use is the EDIROL UA-3. Check out their products at the following site if you'd like to do USB audio transfers. The sound quality is fantastic.
Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Hi all: I am an old school learner who prefers learning by ear, seconded by that old fashioned cassette recorder. That was when I started the fiddle 20 years ago...
I was advised to invest in a mini-disc recorder by a new teacher for my beginning lessons on the box. I looked at web sites on these things, but am wondering can I download recorded music onto my PC so that I can use the new SlowGold program which I found out about on this site and have fallen in love with? Is it fairly simple? I just got laid off and have time but need to watch the money..can't be blindly impulsive.
Lees
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by lees
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I've heard that mini-disc recorders are very heavy on batteries, which is the main reason why I don't use one. Perhaps you should check out battery usage with people who use them regularly. It's possible the latest generation are more efficient than the ones of a few years ago. The big advantage of these toys is that you can upload onto a PC quickly.
I still stick with an Akai cassette recorder with an external stero mic. The main disadvantage is that uploading onto a PC can only be done in real time, although I usually put the wait to good use by picking up my fiddle. However, the batteries last for weeks.
m
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I'm an old-schooler too and a very late adopter of minidiscs - I bought a new Sony model this year. Contrary to what macsheoinin says, the load on the batteries seems to be very light. You have hours of use from a single AA battery. My unit comes with a rechargeable battery and a charging unit, and if you need spares an AA battery or two is easy to carry around.
Also contrary to what macsheonin says, you can NOT upload quickly to a PC. You can only upload in real time by recording via your sound card. Sony, the inventors of the technology, built this in from the start for copy-protection purposes (they have a foot in two camps, since they make recording hardware but own a lot of music too). A well-organized campaign of pleas from minidisc users for a change in this policy has fallen on deaf ears.
On units with the Sony "NET-MD" interface, you can dump stuff from your PC (not Mac) onto the minidisc very quickly via a USB cable.
A drawback of Sony units is that setting the manual recording level (rather than using automatic) involves a lot of button-pushing every time.
Also you must set Sony recorders to append to the end of the disc since by default they overwrite existing material! Fortunately you don't have to do this every time.
They're a bit of a leap from cassette recorders, but worth it IMO. The recording quality is pretty amazing. If you use the automatic recording level in a quietish room it picks up stuff that you can't hear with the naked ear!
Steve
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
True, the old Sony mini-disk recorders eats batteries like popcorn, but the later models are much better about that. Still, the old tape recorder will likely be more energy efficient no matter what. If quality isn't a concern, a casset recorder should do just fine.
With some mini-disks, you can do a direct transfer of the digital data to your computer via optical cable (careful on that one! most models are optical IN and you want optical OUT!). However, doing a simple audio transfer works very well, so I can't recommend paying the extra money.
Either way, you'll still need a 'widget' to connect your tape player or mini-disk player to your computer and the best place to go to get one is your super/mega/huge music store such as Mars Music and talk to one of the techies about what you plan to do. They've got all the digital gadgets that will allow you to input .WAV files to your computer.
Next, you'll need some audio software so you can create tracks and monitor your input levels. Plenty of shareware available to do that.
Lastly, a 50 dollar pre-amp from radio shack will have to be plugged in while you input your music. The signal from the recorders need to be boosted!
I'd be more specific about my setup, but I'm a Mac user and don't know the equivilant software/hardware for PCs!
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Yes the new Sony recorder is very good on batteries and great for recording, I use a Sont Mini disk deck to input directly into the computer via the Soundblaster card. Goldwave is good shareware and you can download it from www.goldwave.com
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Bernie
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I've managed to transfer from minidisc to PC without anything more widgetty than a minijack-to-minijack cable.
I haven't found a pre-amp to be necessary either, although you have to remember to turn the output volume up (the connection is via the headphone socket), particularly if your software allows you to boost the level of the entire track.
However some low-level white noise does creep in when I upload to the PC... would a pre-amp would help with that, Caoimghgin? (People do pick awkward handles to type, I've a mind to call you Kev).
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Sure Steve, Kev is fine. Can I call you Bro?
I should qualify all statements by saying, my Mac does not have a sound card (or the capablity to install one. It's an iCube) so I transfer through the USB port via the afore mentioned 'widget'! A good sound card would be a more standard way of doing that.
As far as the white-noise is concerned, that could be a lot of things, (bad sound card, cables, minidisk player, microphone, etc).
A good start would be to buy some gold plated cables (now standard at Radio Shack). It's the cheapest of all solutions and it might take care of the noise altogether.
I don't know if you need a pre-amp Steve. Seems like everything works just fine for you. If you monitor the levels with a software package as you record to disk and the signal can hit the red zone, then you've got plenty of signal to work with.
Say, about that Optical out feature. Does that carry digital data or is it analog still? Just realized I don't know for sure.
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
When you transfer from the minidisc to PC through the sound card, you're converting from digital to analog and back to digital. Some noise is bound to creep in, and keep in mind that the quality of the A/D conversion in the PC's sound card is less than professional. But, sometimes it's the best you can do.
I'm sure the industry could come with real great solutions to read a minidisk directly in the PC, etc, but remember that the industry is very interested in keeping these things hard (or impossible or illegal) to do, so that we still have to go to them for high-quality recordings. They got burned by CD burners.
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by glauber
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Hey guys, I hope I don't come off as ignorant, but all of this technology--and I know it's just tools--puts me off. It is expensive, and once you get sucked in, it just goes from there--you have to have the latest this or that, and it has to be compliant with this or that computer, set up, microphone, etc. I feel that it really can waste a lot of time, money, etc. (we only just got our first computer several months ago.) I think our ears are the best and most reliable and inexpensive technology on the market.
I admit, I may be a little snobby about it, too--sometimes it seems the most tech-savvy people don't really benefit from all of those gadgets--maybe there's not enough time left to practice after all of those wires and batteries are all hooked up...
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Andee
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
My friend has a sony mini-disk & I highly recomend it. It's pretty good on batteries & he also has a ac adapter so he can plug it in the wall. I would get one if I could justify it's use. I'm fine & happy with my radio-shack tape recorder (has half speed on it), it's just less work. With the mini-disk you need to do a lot more stuff, with a tape recorder you just hit record when you hear a good tune. The sound quality isn't nearly as nice, but it's not so bad that I can't figure the tune out. I've also learned tunes from the rte downloads which sound like a gramaphone being played through a telephone & played back through a chorus pedal. Not exactly easy listening but for learning purposes I don't care as long as I can get the tune out of it. It's all up to you - if you have the extra money than go for it, but it won't impede your learning tunes.
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
Thanks everybody for putting me straight about battery life in minidisc recorders - things have evidently moved on since I last considered the device a couple of years ago. On the downloading side I was inadvertently confusing the minidisc recorder (which I've never actually used) with the web camera I use occasionally in workshops. It has a 128MB memory card and records sound along with the video for up to about 25 minutes - not great quality but ok for learning purposes. The point I was making is that this particular toy downloads everything to the PC via usb cable in a very short time.
Whichever device you use for recording it is important for the best results to use an external mic; the internal mic of the tape recorder/minidisc etc will invariably pick up motor noise and mechanical noise from a cassette and this will be accentuated when things are relatively quiet.
For the record, the software I use for editing my recordings is Cooledit by Syntrillium. Not too expensive and easy to use, with a impressive list of add-on features.
m
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I have a minidisc recorder and find it great and I find it ok on batteries too. The playback sound is much better than a cassette. My tutor plays my tunes onto it so that i can learn by ear and i also have transferred the tunes (which he plays at various speeds) on to cd via my computer. I can then listen to the tunes in the car also which i find very useful. I bought a very small Sony microphone for it which is great for recording at concerts( i probably should'nt admit this!). I used it at a recent Christy Moore concert via my inside pocket and the end reult is fantastic. I have it on cd now which i promise i will not copy for anybody. The only problem is here and there on the cd my girlfriend can be heard asking me "which one is Donal Lunny?" .
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Celtic1234
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
A caveat about recording at concerts & gigs (for one's own private and personal use only, of course). Try to keep well away from any sound stage and other electrical equipment (including power supply cables) which may be used by the band. Stray electrical and magnetic fields emitted by powerful equipment so often used will probably ruin your recording.
m
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Celtic1234, I have found that with a decent sound editor, such as the one I've mentioned previously, unwanted noises can usually be edited out or reduced to such a low level that they don't obtrude. In pub gigs, it's usually easy to edit out the clink of beer glasses if they are too much of a nuisance.
I was recording a baptism in a church once and on the playback I could hear the very obtrusive click-clack of high heels walking along the marble floor over the other side of the church. I was able to edit out these click-clacks without noticeably altering the recording of the priest's voice. Interestingly, though, faint ghostly echoes of the heels remained, walking down the church, apparently with no origin!
m
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I can't believe a mini disk would need to be loaded analog to the computer. Defeats the whole purpose. It needs to use the USB port, or all is lost.
-dogma
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by dogmageek
Re: Tech tools: using minidisc recorders-for learning tunes only
I believe (as said above) the MiniDisk digital format isn't something that can be downloaded directly. What's more, even if you could download the 1's and 0's, there wouldn't be any programs that could interpret since the format is proprietary (and Sony doesn't want you to do that). No big deal, really. MD2HD (minidisk to hard drive) transfers are free of any noise or quality degredation even going throught the audio out of the MD player.
BTW, I do use USB to do the transfers, but the USB is only interpreting analog signals, not directly reading the disk. I suspect the optical out would do the same thing, but be interpreted by the 'widget'.
The USB Audio Interface (or 'widget') I use is the EDIROL UA-3. Check out their products at the following site if you'd like to do USB audio transfers. The sound quality is fantastic.
http://www.edirol.com/products/audio.html
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Caoimghgin