we all know the type, they have never played an instrument, they are usually tone deaf, they have never bothered to learn the basic fundementals, yet not only do they have a positive opinion on the worst dischordant bands, but they feel its their right to tell you how to play and what key (in a vague "you know - higher") and what technique to play in ("You know, you move the bow up and down a lot - faster"). Also known as armchair rugby players.
we all know them, LOL.... I wish they'd stop slinging those lbig words at me,,,, the musical terms I don't understand and just let me PLAY, lol!
Just ignore them. I think they tend to be people who are overintellectualizing the music rather than feeling it. I wish I had learned to read music and understand what some of the theory and terminology is about, but am an old dog and have trouble learning new tricks. I can start to learn but only retain it a little while, then it's gone and I revert to ear playing. Not a great thing, the musical world would open up more if I could retain this.
Still, I find that often beginner players will try to sling those big words around, maybe they want you to think they know more about music than they do, and the snobbism is often coming out of some real insecurity.
I vote just nod your head and get on with the playing, unless you are in the mood for an intellectual argument, LOL! then it could get kind of lively!
In a different light i hate those "armchair republican" students or as we call them "baroom terrorists" they are bettween 17 and 30 yrs old fresh off the coach, studying to be nurses & teachers by day throughout uni's across the uk and by night after two beers too many they start plugging irish nationalism and "telling" not asking you to sing fields fields of athenry so they can murder it with their interludes of hey baby let the free birds fly, sinn fein, IRA etc and then get arrogant with it by trying to sing sean south whilst the musicians continue playing a decent set of tunes. I used to see this as part and parcel of trad sessions now its a good reason to avoid some of them. How would they like it whilst studying people jeering at them and spoiling it all, they would probably run off in a huff complaining "its a waste of time trying to do anything decent with so much distraction" in their poncey, snoby, fake, put on, transatlantic accents. They would also run even further if they were expected to actually carry out a paramilitary activity. STUDENTS JUST STAY AT HOME AT NIGHTS AND DO WHAT YOU CAME HERE TO DO SHUT YER BIG MOUTHS AND STUDY. Then go back to the land you love so well and come back right next time.
Actually, a bunch of "armchair republican" exchange students saved the night on St. Pat's in Porto this year. There were three of us playing - myself on mandolin, fiddle(!!) and whistle, a guitar/mandolin player who had learnt some chords to the tunes I was playing, and a box/viola braguesa (a 10-string animal resembling a guitar) who played mostly Portuguese music. We played a set or two of Irish tunes, then a few Portuguese tunes, and so on. Much as the audience (who appeared to be mostly English and Portuguese) seemed to enjoy it, and happy as I am to spend a whole evening playing nothing but jigs, reels, rotas and murinheiras, I was constantly feeling that it was somewhat lacking in the wild abandon of a real Paddy's Night. The problem was, we didn't know a singer who was familiar with Irish songs, and instrumental versions of raucous pub songs just don't have the same impact.
I was aware, from early on in the evenlng, of a group of young Irish people, apparently not paying much attention to our music. Then, during a break, they all started singing. Since it was near the end of the night by this time, we invited them over to sing with us. The guitar was passed to me (since, through 10 years or so of going to sessions regularly, I have involutarily absorbed most of the popular singalong-type songs well enough to strum a rudimentary accompaniment), and I accompanied the 'armchair republicans' singing their entire repertoire, which comprised The Fields of Athenry, Whiskey in the Jar and The Wild Rover (complete with the 'straight up your ****' interjections). They were actually very nice people and very courteous. Even when the guv'nor (an Englishman) came and told us not to let them use the mike, they obliged without protest - even the big bloke with the skinhead and broad Dublin accent.
Of course, this is an exception. Most of them are 'barroom terrorists' and should be chained to their armchairs.
The worst sort of idiot music snob is the "super fan" who inserts himself or herself into a "scene" through hobnobbing, peddling favors, political maneuverings, flattery, and backstabbing...instead of actually learning to play an instrument well. They have no sensitivity, talent, or taste, yet feel qualified to comment on everything, and often have a disproportionate influence within a given scene.
Worse, very occasionally, "super fans" manage to learn (usually wrongly) the rudiments whistle or some percussion instrument. Then they're really unpleasant.
Are some of us who frequent the Session "idiot music snobs" for looking down our noses at people who like to sing or who don't like the same type of music as we do?
This is not a comment on your thread Joze, or a comment addressed at anyone who has posted on it thus far, just something I think we should all think about.
I have seen a lot of "my music is the best because I think it is, and I am of course the center of the universe" attitudes displayed on this discussion board over the years.
Let us not comment on the mote in our brother's eyes until we have considered the log in our own eyes!
Ahh!!! your comments came right in time. Believe me, I was amazed to learn how apt those descriptions are with respect to somebody whose name I won't mention here...
Right now I feel like forwarding this topic to one such idiot to make him learn a lesson...
and I really curse my diplomacy which will not let me do this...
What always amazes me are the individuals who have recently discovered ITM and are learning to play who think they're special and gifted, and that they have found the Holy Grail of ITM that everyone else was to thinck to spot. Then they'll cast sweeping insults towards legions of major ITM musicians as well as most of their peers without blinking an eye. Many times the very people they choose to put down were indirectly or even directly responsible for bringing the music to their attention in the first place.
i hate music snobs too! i play zydeco too. you wouldn't believe the music and dance snobs in there! some people just dont know that music has no limits or rules. you know what else i hate gingivitas! and relish, that stuff is gross, i don't care how drunk i am. I am not putting that stuff on my hot dogs! now who's with me?
That is what gets me going that only people who have done this and that can be a "good" musician. I have to ask why?
Now as for what Joze is talking about, yes I have met them. It is no problem if you want to music, but unless you are a teacher you have not right to tell someone what to do. Or when to play. Now, at one of my sessions a Flute teacher also plays there, I take his advice. If someone else at that session were to tell me something in contrast to what he was saying I would just ignore it.
I don't think these people understand that play ITM is about enjoyment, not who is the best player at the session. Hell, that is one of the reasons I play ITM. The people who are like this should take up Classical music, they will fit in well.
Iris, speaking as someone who used to only learn from sheet music, it is way better to learn by ear. Of course, it is best if one can do both.
How can we keep from being idiot music snobs?
Some ideas:
-Ask a question about the music, rather than making a definitive statement in an area you are not sure of.
-Talk in terms of what you like and don't like, not in terms of what is 'good' and 'bad.'
-Think about how well you play in comparison to the person whose playing you are commenting on (don't knock it if you can't do it).
-Be nurturing to those who do not play as well as you, giving them guidance, while at the same time, firmly pointing them in a positive direction.
Any other ideas?
My life goes on, an endless stream
Of session, session, session
I'm not an idiot music snob
For that's a bad transgression
I play along on every song
(It's "TUNE" you stupid hobbyist!)
But while there's music in the pub
How can I be the snobbiest?
Al, all of those points are very good. Those are especially true if it is a younger player. Speaking as a young guy myself, a lot of us will take a slightly back handed compliment way out of proportion. Also, remember if they are young, they could be the next (insert a virtuoso's name here).
Remember to not say (blank) is the right way to play, but to say that you prefer tunes played in a certain way.
IMO it's impossible for music to be "bad" unless there are technical mistakes. In terms of style, the only evaluation that makes logical sense is "like" vs. "dislike." And even technical standards are subjectively constructed.
Brilliant, Al. I think Jeremy should include your post in the directions for using the discussion forum. Had people read and followed your suggestions before coming into this forum we could have avoided a lot of nastiness.
I posted while totally frustrated, my toxic parent had invited herself to stay, she is a wannabe music person, totally tone deaf, never bothered to learn an instrument and made it as difficult as possible for me to learn one, going so far as loudly proclaiming to all her friends that I was useless and should never learn music....this is 4 weeks into first starting at the age of 14. She is incredibly ignorant, rude and the person you dont want at a session, she has an opinion on how you should play and is quite abusive when you dont play to her taste. She is the feminine version of the armchair referee, lager lout and soccer hooligan. So while I was downstairs working on a new tune, I could hear her loudly proclaiming to anyone who couldnt escape, how I should be playing and that so and so from so and so was better (too bad so and so from so and so is a stoner pogues wannabe - and it shows). I have the utmost respect for anyone who plays no matter how wonderful or how badly - they have the courage to start. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who decrees how you should play and what you should play if they have never bothered to learn even the basics.
Joze, Ooops, for some reason, I got the impression from your posts that you were younger, and fairly early in your musical pursuits. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
More like an almost phobia about playing in public. The short version of a long story is that I was asked to play 2nd violin for a music competition for high school - this was in my 2nd year of learning music and instrument....next thing I was given a viola, an original piece of music by Edwin Carr written especially for our chamber group. If anyone has ever played any Edwin Carr music they know what I mean, for everyone else, the man loved unusual rhthyms, keys and complicated phrasing. I know of many professional orchestral musicians who struggle with it.
Add that to a mortified 15 year old on a stage in front of a full opera house (also used for rock concerts) and yes its pretty much put me off for life. The small school competition was the National Chamber Music Championship.
The school music director had decided in her wisdom to not tell any of us just how prestigious the competition was. So 5 kids expecting a regional competition pitted against other bad and thrown together chambers got a national competition competing against private schools with kids who had been playing before they started nursery school and private tutors who were moonlighting from their jobs teaching music at university. You could say I was given a complex.
"The school music director had decided in her wisdom to not tell any of us just how prestigious the competition was. So 5 kids expecting a regional competition pitted against other bad and thrown together chambers got a national competition competing against private schools with kids who had been playing before they started nursery school and private tutors who were moonlighting from their jobs teaching music at university. You could say I was given a complex."
Sounds like some of my experiences visiting Ireland. I remember when I first met Padraig Rynne in Ennis. He showed up at Cruises when I was sitting in with the session and played circles around me all night. At the end of the session the other fellas were bemoaning how they had to go to work in the morning. Padraig chimed in with how he had to go to high school the next morning. He was still in his teens -- I was old enough to be his dad. Talk about a complex.
I hate idiot music snobs
I hate idiot music snobs
we all know the type, they have never played an instrument, they are usually tone deaf, they have never bothered to learn the basic fundementals, yet not only do they have a positive opinion on the worst dischordant bands, but they feel its their right to tell you how to play and what key (in a vague "you know - higher") and what technique to play in ("You know, you move the bow up and down a lot - faster"). Also known as armchair rugby players.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Joze
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
we all know them, LOL.... I wish they'd stop slinging those lbig words at me,,,, the musical terms I don't understand and just let me PLAY, lol!
Just ignore them. I think they tend to be people who are overintellectualizing the music rather than feeling it. I wish I had learned to read music and understand what some of the theory and terminology is about, but am an old dog and have trouble learning new tricks. I can start to learn but only retain it a little while, then it's gone and I revert to ear playing. Not a great thing, the musical world would open up more if I could retain this.
Still, I find that often beginner players will try to sling those big words around, maybe they want you to think they know more about music than they do, and the snobbism is often coming out of some real insecurity.
I vote just nod your head and get on with the playing, unless you are in the mood for an intellectual argument, LOL! then it could get kind of lively!
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
In a different light i hate those "armchair republican" students or as we call them "baroom terrorists" they are bettween 17 and 30 yrs old fresh off the coach, studying to be nurses & teachers by day throughout uni's across the uk and by night after two beers too many they start plugging irish nationalism and "telling" not asking you to sing fields fields of athenry so they can murder it with their interludes of hey baby let the free birds fly, sinn fein, IRA etc and then get arrogant with it by trying to sing sean south whilst the musicians continue playing a decent set of tunes. I used to see this as part and parcel of trad sessions now its a good reason to avoid some of them. How would they like it whilst studying people jeering at them and spoiling it all, they would probably run off in a huff complaining "its a waste of time trying to do anything decent with so much distraction" in their poncey, snoby, fake, put on, transatlantic accents. They would also run even further if they were expected to actually carry out a paramilitary activity. STUDENTS JUST STAY AT HOME AT NIGHTS AND DO WHAT YOU CAME HERE TO DO SHUT YER BIG MOUTHS AND STUDY. Then go back to the land you love so well and come back right next time.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Actually, a bunch of "armchair republican" exchange students saved the night on St. Pat's in Porto this year. There were three of us playing - myself on mandolin, fiddle(!!) and whistle, a guitar/mandolin player who had learnt some chords to the tunes I was playing, and a box/viola braguesa (a 10-string animal resembling a guitar) who played mostly Portuguese music. We played a set or two of Irish tunes, then a few Portuguese tunes, and so on. Much as the audience (who appeared to be mostly English and Portuguese) seemed to enjoy it, and happy as I am to spend a whole evening playing nothing but jigs, reels, rotas and murinheiras, I was constantly feeling that it was somewhat lacking in the wild abandon of a real Paddy's Night. The problem was, we didn't know a singer who was familiar with Irish songs, and instrumental versions of raucous pub songs just don't have the same impact.
I was aware, from early on in the evenlng, of a group of young Irish people, apparently not paying much attention to our music. Then, during a break, they all started singing. Since it was near the end of the night by this time, we invited them over to sing with us. The guitar was passed to me (since, through 10 years or so of going to sessions regularly, I have involutarily absorbed most of the popular singalong-type songs well enough to strum a rudimentary accompaniment), and I accompanied the 'armchair republicans' singing their entire repertoire, which comprised The Fields of Athenry, Whiskey in the Jar and The Wild Rover (complete with the 'straight up your ****' interjections). They were actually very nice people and very courteous. Even when the guv'nor (an Englishman) came and told us not to let them use the mike, they obliged without protest - even the big bloke with the skinhead and broad Dublin accent.
Of course, this is an exception. Most of them are 'barroom terrorists' and should be chained to their armchairs.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
The worst sort of idiot music snob is the "super fan" who inserts himself or herself into a "scene" through hobnobbing, peddling favors, political maneuverings, flattery, and backstabbing...instead of actually learning to play an instrument well. They have no sensitivity, talent, or taste, yet feel qualified to comment on everything, and often have a disproportionate influence within a given scene.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Hanley
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Worse, very occasionally, "super fans" manage to learn (usually wrongly) the rudiments whistle or some percussion instrument. Then they're really unpleasant.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Are some of us who frequent the Session "idiot music snobs" for looking down our noses at people who like to sing or who don't like the same type of music as we do?
This is not a comment on your thread Joze, or a comment addressed at anyone who has posted on it thus far, just something I think we should all think about.
I have seen a lot of "my music is the best because I think it is, and I am of course the center of the universe" attitudes displayed on this discussion board over the years.
Let us not comment on the mote in our brother's eyes until we have considered the log in our own eyes!
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Ahh!!! your comments came right in time. Believe me, I was amazed to learn how apt those descriptions are with respect to somebody whose name I won't mention here...
Right now I feel like forwarding this topic to one such idiot to make him learn a lesson...
and I really curse my diplomacy which will not let me do this...
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Barfly
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Oh, gowon gowon gowon!!! We love a good fight!!!
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
To make it clear - I referred to the comments before Al Brown's, namely the one of cthuilleannpiper who really hit the spot describing my 'someone'...
Okay, maybe I have a bad day today.
Now, back to practicing...
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Barfly
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
What always amazes me are the individuals who have recently discovered ITM and are learning to play who think they're special and gifted, and that they have found the Holy Grail of ITM that everyone else was to thinck to spot. Then they'll cast sweeping insults towards legions of major ITM musicians as well as most of their peers without blinking an eye. Many times the very people they choose to put down were indirectly or even directly responsible for bringing the music to their attention in the first place.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Phantom Button
Too "thick" to spot rather.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the Dark Side... beware!
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Cammy
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
i hate music snobs too! i play zydeco too. you wouldn't believe the music and dance snobs in there! some people just dont know that music has no limits or rules. you know what else i hate gingivitas! and relish, that stuff is gross, i don't care how drunk i am. I am not putting that stuff on my hot dogs! now who's with me?
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by mikeandthefiddle
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
THis is one disscussion that may p*ss you off http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5625/comments#comment119525
That is what gets me going that only people who have done this and that can be a "good" musician. I have to ask why?
Now as for what Joze is talking about, yes I have met them. It is no problem if you want to music, but unless you are a teacher you have not right to tell someone what to do. Or when to play. Now, at one of my sessions a Flute teacher also plays there, I take his advice. If someone else at that session were to tell me something in contrast to what he was saying I would just ignore it.
I don't think these people understand that play ITM is about enjoyment, not who is the best player at the session. Hell, that is one of the reasons I play ITM. The people who are like this should take up Classical music, they will fit in well.
Iris, speaking as someone who used to only learn from sheet music, it is way better to learn by ear. Of course, it is best if one can do both.
# Posted on April 28th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
David, it's all those middle English ecclesiastical buildings getting at you
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
How can we keep from being idiot music snobs?
Some ideas:
-Ask a question about the music, rather than making a definitive statement in an area you are not sure of.
-Talk in terms of what you like and don't like, not in terms of what is 'good' and 'bad.'
-Think about how well you play in comparison to the person whose playing you are commenting on (don't knock it if you can't do it).
-Be nurturing to those who do not play as well as you, giving them guidance, while at the same time, firmly pointing them in a positive direction.
Any other ideas?
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
My life goes on, an endless stream
Of session, session, session
I'm not an idiot music snob
For that's a bad transgression
I play along on every song
(It's "TUNE" you stupid hobbyist!)
But while there's music in the pub
How can I be the snobbiest?
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Al, all of those points are very good. Those are especially true if it is a younger player. Speaking as a young guy myself, a lot of us will take a slightly back handed compliment way out of proportion. Also, remember if they are young, they could be the next (insert a virtuoso's name here).
Remember to not say (blank) is the right way to play, but to say that you prefer tunes played in a certain way.
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
You da Man, Al.
IMO it's impossible for music to be "bad" unless there are technical mistakes. In terms of style, the only evaluation that makes logical sense is "like" vs. "dislike." And even technical standards are subjectively constructed.
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Brilliant, Al. I think Jeremy should include your post in the directions for using the discussion forum. Had people read and followed your suggestions before coming into this forum we could have avoided a lot of nastiness.
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
I posted while totally frustrated, my toxic parent had invited herself to stay, she is a wannabe music person, totally tone deaf, never bothered to learn an instrument and made it as difficult as possible for me to learn one, going so far as loudly proclaiming to all her friends that I was useless and should never learn music....this is 4 weeks into first starting at the age of 14. She is incredibly ignorant, rude and the person you dont want at a session, she has an opinion on how you should play and is quite abusive when you dont play to her taste. She is the feminine version of the armchair referee, lager lout and soccer hooligan. So while I was downstairs working on a new tune, I could hear her loudly proclaiming to anyone who couldnt escape, how I should be playing and that so and so from so and so was better (too bad so and so from so and so is a stoner pogues wannabe - and it shows). I have the utmost respect for anyone who plays no matter how wonderful or how badly - they have the courage to start. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who decrees how you should play and what you should play if they have never bothered to learn even the basics.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Joze
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
what?!!?,
ha ha!
Joze,
Keep on plugging away--you can rise above the criticism, and become a great musician--the only thing you need is hard work and time.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
I think 20 years of playing doesnt count me as an expert, but I am certainly not a beginner either.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Joze
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
*finger count* make that 21 years.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Joze
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Joze, Ooops, for some reason, I got the impression from your posts that you were younger, and fairly early in your musical pursuits. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Is that a back handed compliment? ;)
More like an almost phobia about playing in public. The short version of a long story is that I was asked to play 2nd violin for a music competition for high school - this was in my 2nd year of learning music and instrument....next thing I was given a viola, an original piece of music by Edwin Carr written especially for our chamber group. If anyone has ever played any Edwin Carr music they know what I mean, for everyone else, the man loved unusual rhthyms, keys and complicated phrasing. I know of many professional orchestral musicians who struggle with it.
Add that to a mortified 15 year old on a stage in front of a full opera house (also used for rock concerts) and yes its pretty much put me off for life. The small school competition was the National Chamber Music Championship.
The school music director had decided in her wisdom to not tell any of us just how prestigious the competition was. So 5 kids expecting a regional competition pitted against other bad and thrown together chambers got a national competition competing against private schools with kids who had been playing before they started nursery school and private tutors who were moonlighting from their jobs teaching music at university. You could say I was given a complex.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Joze
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
Would someone who sits in judgement of what is tradtional and what is not qualify as a snob?
# Posted on May 14th 2006 by stonecrusher
Re: I hate idiot music snobs
"The school music director had decided in her wisdom to not tell any of us just how prestigious the competition was. So 5 kids expecting a regional competition pitted against other bad and thrown together chambers got a national competition competing against private schools with kids who had been playing before they started nursery school and private tutors who were moonlighting from their jobs teaching music at university. You could say I was given a complex."
Sounds like some of my experiences visiting Ireland. I remember when I first met Padraig Rynne in Ennis. He showed up at Cruises when I was sitting in with the session and played circles around me all night. At the end of the session the other fellas were bemoaning how they had to go to work in the morning. Padraig chimed in with how he had to go to high school the next morning. He was still in his teens -- I was old enough to be his dad. Talk about a complex.
# Posted on May 14th 2006 by Phantom Button