Sessions are:
1. A place that sometimes breeds stylistic insipidity by creating bland, mediocre and homogenized players.
2. A place where the music can be marginalized and lowered to a common denominator
3. A place where sometimes the music falters without the presence of strong accompaniment because people lack the ability to keep time.
4. A place where sometimes the music falters because of the presence of strong accompaniment due to the fact that the melody players can create a better rhythm/pulse/flow/etc without the accompaniment.
5. A place that can create stunted players who can "play the tune once somebody else starts it" but can't carry a tune on their own.
6. A place where beginners, people who are looking to meet people and learn about the tradition, might fall into the traps of becoming a mediocre player.
7. A place where there are sometimes so many musicians playing that The Music becomes lost because everybody is too busy shouting and nobody is listening.
8. A place that should be a musical conversation between people rather than a wall of sound.
9. A place that can be antithetical to the spirit of the due to the presence of a "strong session leader" and a "well run" session.
10. Are places to have fun and share the music rather than show off.
11. Are best organically taken for what they are and excepting that.
According to my heretic's dictionary
Sessions are not:
1. A place were a local so called or expert (strong leader) decides that he/she is king of his/her particular mole hill so he/she can rule his/her subjects by deciding what tunes to play, where to sit, when to talk and what to talk about.
2. A place to become a great player, necesarily.
3. An authoratarian society where friends succomb to a leader because they need strict guidlines for playing.
4. Private preformances held under the disguise of a public session so that somebody can have a bunch of "guests" sit there and listen to that somebody and somebody's close friends play tunes that nobody has heard of that they stole of (enter somebodies cd) for 2/3rds of the evening.
5. An entity to be run through a rigorous penal system and sprayed down with pesticides.
There's also a few footnote in my heretic's dictionary.
*Sometimes sessions, when the stars align, can generate some great craic and some amazing music. These sessions are also a place where great friends can be made, friends for life. These are the sessions that we seek and the sessions that keep us coming back for more.
Sometimes you need to read between the lines a bit and analyze your local session, your goals and what you want to get out of it. I'm not speaking from a soapbox, I'm just trying to do my small part by argueing for better, more productive concept of a session, and of creating stylistically unique: players. Lets just try to honor those who have given this music to us by playing and passing it on in that spirit...
I don't have much time to comment at the moment, Jack. However, although all these negative aspects do occur and sometimes even predominate, we often have to accept sessions as they are ... "warts and all".
Sometimes, too much analysing can just get in the way of enjoyment. That's not to say one should be reckless and unthoughtful of others or consistently break the rules of session etiquette. Let's not argue about those just how.
Anyway, if there is such a thing as a perfect session, it's very elusive. It won't necessarily happen if you keep on attempting to change things all the time. Yes, you can have regular sessions which are consistently good but there will always be minor imperfections and aspects which will not suit everybody.
Are all 10 what sessions are, in the writer's view?
Some of these seem to be what the author thinks a session 'should be' (God forbid!) (Nos. 8, 10
Some of them are observations of what he doesn't like about sessions (certain sessions?) (Nos. 1 - 7 and 9)
At least one has the appearance of gibberish (No.11?)
The "Sessions are not" section sounds like a snipe at someone or somewhere specific disguised as general comment.
Sounds like you need to start your own session, if you can find enough like-minded people in your area, and not worry so much about what other people are doing.
But I do add my endorsement of your use of the word insipidity - it doesn't see the light of day often enough in my opinion.
These statements are true because almost every item in the list has the word "sometimes" in it in some form or another.
All these things are true sometimes, but not just of sessions. Whether you go to a Rolling Stones concert, a performance by the London Philharmonic Orchestra or your local session, the music falters sometimes, and breeds stylistic instupidity sometimes, mediocrity sometimes, power struggles sometimes, etc sometimes. In other words, you can replace "Sessions are:" with "Any place is:"
Any Sessiun players in Eastern Ct? I am looking for something celtic anywhere from Norwich and North. Any Celtic players in the area want to start something? Preferably on the 1st and 3rd tuesdays on the month. I heard there is a new Irish pub opening or opened down in Norwich. Could be fun.
It sounds like a litany about the state of the human race. You'll never get away from it - no matter how far you travel, and no matter what language you evolve into, it will eventually catch up.
The upside is the music itself. What can you hear in in, over the cacophony of the human condition?
Ottery,
Oy i'm not that 'Mark Thatcher'. No relation to the iron Maiden that I'll admit to. We have been on this side of the big pond for 13 generations. So I am safely enough removed from 'herself'. Plus, I'm more into fiddlin than taking over third world countries or driving fast.
No Problem Ottery. I don't worry about being compared to that twit. I get it all the time. My wife is a Derbyshire Lass and her Dad has no qualms about ribbing the Yank Son in Law. ;)
Good post, Jack. I think when people get into Irish music they often seem to make the mistake and think that sessions are the end-all and be-all of irish music. they're not. they're just one aspect of the social dimension of ITM. I also caution beginners not to indulge in sessions too much for it can seriously mess up the process of learning.
Dennis Cahill once said that he never expected much musically out of sessions. He went to socialize and have fun. If there was great music, then all the better. But it should not be an expectation. I don't think this is elitist. Just accepting reality.
'I also caution beginners not to indulge in sessions too much for it can seriously mess up the process of learning'.
Brendan, that's a great illustration of why these discussions are always so circular, and occasionally descend into acrimony.
Some people will see playing/learning as a process of self-improvement. Some people see music as a largely phatic activity.
The two viewpoints are not completely exclusive, but they must cause a conflict of interest in the context of an 'open' session.
I didn't see J.M.s post as a criticism of sessions, as you seem to - I took it more as a diatribe against certain types of session ....
Point taken ottery. No acrimony intended. some session are boring, suck, and tend toward bland mediocre playing. others don't. as far as playing and learning is concerned, i still stick by my advice not to indulge too much in sessions. the best sessions are of course where there's a combination of brialliant music and omega-three-phatic activity.
"...that is why they were good…because they played with good musicians."
A very good point. I've been at poor quality sessions where the quality of my playing has done nothing to raise the overall standard of the music - technically or craically (which are part of the same beast, anyway). I have also played in a few sessions of the highest standard, where none of the other musicians seemed to regard me as anything other than 'one of them' - I do not suggest that the quality of my playing was anywhere near the standard of 'the masters', just that I was apparently well able to use what musical faculties I have to good effect.
However, I have also played in great sessions where no individual musician could be considered especially good. No doubt it has to do with lots of things - the combination of people, the acoustics of the venue, the phases of the moon etc. But I think certain musicians, regardless of their technical standard, or even their taste or feeling for traditional music, have the abilty to drive a session and get everyone playing at their best.
All of Jack's points hold some truth. But I think, for most session players, the primary and perhaps only purpose of a session is to play music together and enjoy it (learning is an inevitable by-product, as it is of most things) - and this is what we all strive for. It is difficult to achieve it every time, especially at regular sessions, which rarely* have the same magic as the truly spontaneous ones (which happen because they _must_ happen, not because they are _expected_ to happen).
A session is a variable - from week to week, venue to venue, people to people - beyond even the realms of fractal mathematics, I would wager. Jack's statement #11, if I understood it correctly, says it all - and more-or-less renders all the foregoing statements redundant.
*I speak from my own experience. Perhaps some people know the spell for making it happen every week.
Believe me Brendan - some of the sessions round here would be greatly improved by the injection of some bland mediocre playing (If mediocre is one step up from abysmal!)
I go to sessions to play tunes with folks, drink a few pints, and enjoy the company of people I know and people I meet. Now I know why Jack doesn't approve of our sessions.
I think it's like that corny old fisherman's saying: "The worst day of fishing is better than the best day of work."
A good session is better than a mediocre one, but a mediocre session is better than none at all. And if some experienced players show up to help out, the mediocre session just might improve.
Given the choice between playing "stylistically insipid" music with my friends OR playing technically perfect and stylistically orthodox tunes alone, I'd opt for the former much of the time.
Anybody else find it ironic that a post blasting the session experience is posted on this website??
Yes, worms... I find it ironic too. My guess, based on what little I do know about Murphy, is that he actually likes sessions and would enjoy participating in them more. I think it’s more that he’s just frustrated with them and has a very negative way of dealing with it.
I have to say, his playing has improved dramatically since he first showed up at my house for a lesson or two, but just like all of us -- it takes time to learn enough tunes to participate in sessions the way we would like to. When Murphy has shown up at sessions I’ve either been hosting or participating in, he only knows one or two of the tunes that are played during the night, and for that reason the hosts always invite him to start a tune or two -- as would be the case with anyone else. I think everyone gets frustrated with this aspect of ITM, I know I did, but Murphy's response seems to be to lash out at the session and everyone in it. If he could channel that frustration into learning the tunes that are being played -- he’d become a very welcome addition. Instead, he chooses to insult us on public Internet message boards. But I could be wrong about all this -- it's just a guess.
phantom, i got frustrated, bitter even, with that sort of thing too when I was a beginner, sitting throulgh sessions and not even being able to play more than a few tunes. that is in part why i recommend that beginners not make sessions the mainstay of their ITM goals and aspirations.
wow, larsheen, i think you have walloped us with a dose of the truth...
I think we all did to a certain degree. At first, out of frustration, I made the mistake of noodling on the tunes I didn't know just so I wouldn't be sitting there doing nothing for so long. I soon realized that other people around me who were trying to play the tune found this to be quite annoying -- so I stopped. Then I took up smoking because rolling ciggies and smoking them gave me something to do. I also took up the bodhran and actually became quite good... or so I've been told. Eventually I was playing tunes more than the bodhran, and I could give up the rollies. (I only smoked at sessions, so I wasn't hooked.) Nowadays I take the bodhran along because I enjoy playing it here and there. But during that time when I didn't know many tunes it was sometimes difficult to maintain a positive outlook on the whole thing. Sometimes I thought I should just leave the flute and concertina at home and enjoy listening instead until I had enough tunes under my belt. I wish I could have taken my own advice.
Criticising the concept of the session itself is completely ridiculous. Mickray hits the nail on the head - if I walk by chance into an unknown bar I am far happier to find a 'mediocre' session taking place than none at all. Let's get off our affected purist high horses here. Yes, we should all be aware of our level and whether we actually contribute or detract from a particular session. This takes sensitivity and experience (gained from time spent in sessions, I might add...) And yes, the listed points raised by the original post all certainly occur from time to time. But the suggestion that the session concept itself has a negative impact on people's playing abilities and the music itself is, frankly, nonsense. On the contrary, sessions are where most people are first exposed to the music, become interested in it, learn session etiquette and pick up tips on how to play from better players. Of course there are exceptions. But to use these exceptions as the basis for such a pointed argument misses the session spirit entirely. ITM is not an exclusive music - there is a place for all sessions. If you can' t find a local session that suits you then start your own or, alternatively, just stay at home.
For about the first year when I was a raw beginner and started going to sessions I didn't play the fiddle I had with me. I was quite content to sit and listen to the music and to absorb it. In retrospect this is something I've never regretted. It certainly wasn't a waste of time.
I don't know about your presumptions, Phantom. After having known Murphy for so long I am pretty sure he would sooner get frustrated with facing low musicality in a session than not being able to get a tune in.
Regarding this thread, Brendan and Lasheen really said what I feel about the situation in sessions. The main problem I have with most of the sessions people have convenient access to is that they do not encourage upping your game in musicality at all. There is no element of stylistics, character, or subtlety in the music of most sessions that it cannot be a conducive environment for one to get good. Instead your average sessioneer is just happy to be able to have played the tune through in unison with a wall of sound, in a non-descript, characterless style. I mean, if this level of musicality is all you ask of yourself more power to you. But if you intend to get good in this music, viewing sessions at the end-all and be-all to Irish music will be a sure way of dooming yourself to musical mediocrity.
"On the contrary, sessions are where most people are first exposed to the music, become interested in it, learn session etiquette and pick up tips on how to play from better players"
- Doodle
All this is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities.
Oh you're so right, Eldarion... how could I not see that the best approach for a newbie flute player that's moving to a town with a ITM community is to criticize the poor quality of the sessions there and proclaim that their all ruining the music. That would be sure to inspire all the locals and win their friendship.
Usually I hate to stir sh*t unnecessarily, but c'mon, Eldarion....
"the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities"
First, I'd say that the "session concept" varies a great deal, from session to session. Spice of life and all that.
"as we know it"--have you taken a poll? who's this "we"?
"negative impact on the people's playing abilities"--I can't imagine a broader generalization. Every person at every ITM session becomes a worse player by the experience? Hard to believe.
Why not consider the glass to be half full--at least they're not at some loud, ugly, biggest-amp-wins garage-rock "jam session"--and strive for improvement?
Whats this got to do with winning friendships? Its saying it like it is, talking about the standard of music. Though I do suppose that for some with egos of the ginormous variety, or skins of the paper-thin variety, any criticism of their music might feel like a personal affront to themselves and their mothers.
1) They force me to drink too much and I end up with a hangover the next day.
2) They force me to get home late so I have a job getting up in the morning for work.
3) They force me to be in a pub for an extended period of time which means that my clothes end up smelling of smoke.
"it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on people's playing abilities"
Eldorian, this is an opinion, not a fact.
Sessions are certainly not the be-all and end-all of ITM but I'm sure you'd agree that they play a significant role. Sure, playing a small select kitchen session is far more likely to provide musical fulfillment than playing in a noisy, crowded pub session with a group of beginners and/or session destroyers, but there is a wide spectrum in between.
And while it is one thing to play to the best of your ability with all those stylistic nuances in the comfort and familiarity of a private house setting, it is quite another to reproduce that in a session environment with all the variables involved. Do you really want to be someone who can only play when the surrounding circumstances are perfect? Good session playing is a skill which improves with the number and variety of sessions you play in.
Sessions help you to learn to play with a wide variety of people, friends and strangers alike; they help you play under a variety of pressures; you are exposed to new tunes and settings; you are able to observe different styles, techniques and approaches; you learn to give and take advice. This has truly been my session experience over the years. I find the 'sessions are bad for people's playing' statement extremely blinkered.
Eldarion, if you think insulting people is a way to win friends because you're just "saying it like it is"... I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're making it up to be funny... but I don't think you are amazingly enough.
Well I debated on whether posting again or just letting the words up above stand and allow people to take what they will from then but I must make a reply to Gilder's baseless, and completely wrong psychoanalysis.
I could go on and on about how many tunes I actually know, about how I don't like to interupt sessions to play my tunes in my style, about how anybody knows me knows that I could sit there all night and not play a tune and have a great time, about how many times I've been run out of town for my opinoins (zero times), about how many friends I have in the city who play music (more than you most likely). I simply don't feel the need to rationalize and defend myself. I know what I'm about and what I'm not about. I know that I had a great couple of years of sessions at the bodhran and I know that I can have a house full of people rockin till 6 in the morning playing tunes. I think maybe you need to get over the fact that I only took 2 lessons from you back in the day and stopped, the fact that I don't attend your sessions, the fact that my flute playing might threaten you (somebody else's words, not mine[because I could care less]) and the fact I don't need to agree with everything you say and you don't need to agree with everything I say. Take solice in the fact that the sun will still rise tomorrow regardless of what I type on this here forum.
It's funny, everytime Murphy says something about a situation in general, Gilder gets offended and goes for the personnal attacks. I'm sure Murphy doesnt like Gilder's sessions for the same reasons I would not like them, and I know it's not about "the number of tunes Murphy knows". The thing I really don't understand is why is it bothering Gilder so much what Murphy thinks about the sessions in San Francisco? It doesnt fit Gilder's personality. Gilder should not be bothered by anything outside the small bubble that's surrounding him. But I might be wrong, I'm only guessing.
Sorry eldarion, but what on earth do you mean by 'All this is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities.'
'Playing abilities' for what?
For playing at the Royal Albert Hall?
For when The Chieftains come to town and invite you to help them out on stage?
This is a website for people who play at sessions. It's what we like to do. It's not 'training' for some imaginary future existance when we make exquisite music in some other context.
And if some of you think that sessions are necessarilly crap musically, just go to Kerryfiddles.com and look at some of the little videos of sessions at the Herschell at the Dave Williams weekend.
Seriously? Come on now, I'm trying to get some sleep. Sessions, refering to the pub sessions generally discussed on this site didn't exist until the 1950's-60's when they were started up in England. The music was quite alright before them and will most likely be quite alright without them.
Although I find the bitching between the two Jacks a bit tiresome, I can see merits in the arguments from both sides.
However, Jack Murphy, I'd suggest that the number of tunes you know is irrelevant in a session situation. You have to be able to play the bulk of the repertoire there and be prepared to "fit into" whosever session it is. This may mean learning the tunes you don't already know and even adapting your style. You're right though about sessions being only one part(and relatively recent at that) of Irish Music. You are free to play all your "own" tunes as you wish in different situations and even some other sessions as appropriate. "As appropriate" being the defining words of the last sentence.
Jack, you started the personal attacks in your first post of this thread. I posted in the beginning and for 20 some on odd posts nobody mentioned your name. Then all of a sudden, like you did in this thread and others, you attack the messanger and give a insulting analysis of why a certain person thinks a certain way. You've insulted me and my playing more than once and even though you've changed your tune from "mediocre" to "dramatic improvement" you're still insulting me nonetheless. I've never made remarks about your playing or the number of tunes you may have or may not have and may or may not make a bullox out of them. I've never said your session is crap and it's complete (maybe true) paranoya that makes you think you're the center of everything I do. Maybe some of the comments hit a little too close to home in my first post. I don't know.
Jack, PP is right. Whereabouts nowadays would the music exist without sessions? If you think it would survive simply in people's houses in this day and age when no-one goes anywhere without an invite, I think you're wrong. Virtually every band I can think of worth their salt started out playing in sessions together. Sessions and session musicians can sometimes be a bloody nightmare, but they are are alive and vibrant and provide an accessible entry point to the music - even if some of the more competent players do go on to play solo at the Albert Hall(!)
Ok, please don't all jump on me for this first statment I will qualify it honest.....
If you're going to a session to play the music perfecty then don't go !!!!!!!!
I have to say, I've been going to sessions and backing tunes and singing songs for a few years now and I don't think I've ever done it exactly the same was twice, playing with others means you cant and irrelevant of how good they are you always add somethng to them and they always add to you, if you do it right (and i don't mean play it perfectly) it should be this wonderful social and musical experience. I still believe sessions are the best way to learn but not as an individual, I had the benefit of finding someone very quickly who played in a way I liked and basically going along to sessions with him, I learned from him and others but used him as a yardstick for the way I wanted to be, he has since told me to stop watching him as it's keeping me back (nothing wrong with blowing ones own !!! )
Take a session for what it is, a gathering of like minded people who all want to play the same music and have some fun, if you take it as seriously as this threads originator your kinda missing the point of the whole thing ! and as far as I'm concerned this in no way qualifies you as a musician, if he's so perfect why doesn't he sit in on these so called mediocre sessions and improve them by his very presence !?!?!
I would say that the main enblandising force in Irish Trad music is Conhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann with it’s stylistic favourites. I've heard more Irish regional variety at Pub sessions here in Manchester then you ever get from the Kiddies at CCE events.
Too right, Pied!
And one of the other important roles of the session is as a force to keep the music rooted. Now that it has spread from the community which originally gave the music meaning, it needs the democracy of the session to keep it from changing TOO fast. If it's left in the hands of the experts, they will surely mess with it. It's simple stuff, and doesn't keep them satisfied for long(!) Look how the Blue-grass boys took that lovely old-tymey music and screwed it up with their heartless virtuosity. I love Lunasa, but they sound as Asturian to me as they do Irish these days! (Come to think of it I think a Llan De Cubell set was played a at the Herschell a few weeks ago - great fun, but no danger of that becoming the sound of the session)
No, I wouldn't trust the elite who turn their noses up at sessions with the future of the music.
Frankly.
Who are 'the elite' and why would they turn their noses up?
What is your definition of an elitist?
When you play in sessions that at times can be dominated by tourists who were given a bodhrán at xmas and think they can join in a session, does that mean that the core musicians who play there week after week after week, sometimes when they are the only people in the bar, are elitist because they would like to keep the session centered?
Who wants to sit of a night fighting through untuned whistles flute or other instruments, whilst straining to hear from the periphery of what is normally your local set, because the bad mannered individuals hadnt the wit to see what the etiquette was and sat in your seat before you even got there. And just because a session starts at a particular time, cant be justification for that, I am often late, either because of work, family commitments or the bloody car wont start.
I personally wouldnt dream of upsetting anyone elses regular tunes. I always ask can I join in, and iF the session is late starting, I wait until the players arrive before sitting down. I am a guest after all, and it is ultimately up to them if I can join in. If they dont let me then I go somewhere else!
As for taking it seriously, some of us have a living to make, and cant afford for bar managers to cancel a session because it was disjointed, badly organised and the bodhran and guitars have taken over to the point where the clients get up and go somewhere else.
Who are 'the elite' and why would they turn their noses up?
Sorry, Blas, that was a bit vague, I was having a bit of a dig at those above who seem to think that sessions are in general a bad thing - the term elite was meant to be a tad ironic ....
No-one is arguing in favour of poor quality sessions - are they?
Larsheen, lots of house sessions go on now. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If, as you say, you took all the open sessions out of the equation tomorrow, of course the music would survive, but I personally think it would lose what has become an important support mechanism. You may disagree with my opinion on this, but I don't know why you think it is 'rubbish'.
I've just had my attention drawn to the fact I mentioned kerryfiddles.com somewhere in the reams of hot air
The movies mentioned are in fact at kerrywhistles .com
Oh well, the weekend will be here soon, and I won't have to waste my time posting nonsense here
[Rant]
Just speaking from personal experience here, but sessions are one of the defining attractions of this music. For me, it certainly beats the hell out of the pipe band scene for numerous reasons. I suspect a LOT of folks who started playing it got hooked on the social elements first, and got serious about honing their skills shortly thereafter. Sessions, at least in the states, are a gateway drug into the music itself.
I'd further venture to say that without open, public sessions, this music would survive, but a hell of a lot fewer people would be playing it. The quality *might* be better, but that's pure speculation and would be impossible to prove without outlawing public playing. Nonetheless, a fair number of players "graduate" from playing merely for the craic into something more serious, technically and stylistically. It seems disingenuous to bash the initial attraction.
Does the litany of offences compiled by JackM have a basis in reality? Absolutely. BUT. . . y'all must have some goddawful bad luck if that's what dominates the playing in your areas. Or maybe I am just lucky and grateful to have what we have locally.
BUt I guess I am a heretic because I like Lunasa, guitars, and the Bothy Band, and don't think that some folk music is automatically *better* than other music simply because it might be older. I categorically reject the vague blanket assertions that
- modern playing is deficient stylistically,
- deficient in terms of "feeling" (However nebulously defined),
- deficient in terms of "authenticity" or cultural merit (However nebulously defined)
There is value in celebrating diversity and innovation, just as there is value in preserving and celebrating older forms and styles of music.
[/Rant]
Recordings like Paddy in the Smoke and Live at Mona's show that the playing at pub sessions can be of very high quality indeed, so the potential is certainly there. Most sessions I've played at (or mostly listened to, in some cases) aspire to that high standard.
At one session I'm familiar with, there surely can be a "wall of sound" during the well-known tunes--but then the co-leaders (plus or minus a couple of heavy hitters) will start a more obscure tune, and the rest of us listen and learn. I can't see anything wrong with that.
Good lass, Larsh. It gets to the stage where it's not even tedious, just not worth reading. I just scroll down, couldn't be @rsed. Murphy has problems, big time, that's for sure.
Larsheen, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think there's anything 'definite' about the idea that going to sessions does not help you improve as a player. Perhaps constructive practice time at home alone or in a one-on-one with a better player is a quicker route to a higher standard of playing, but it doesn't mean that session playing has absolutely no positive effect on your playing. It obviously depends on the session and the individual player, but a lot can be gained from observing, listening to and playing with a wide range of different players in a session context.
My original reason for going to sessions was to enjoy listening to real live ITM. Now I enjoy playing (whistle and bodrhan) I not only love listening I enjoy seeing those feet tapping, people smiling, sometimes dancing, the applause and cheers of approval at the end of a great set and knowing that I have, inpart, been responsible for that fun. I don't think that feeling good about ourselves through hard work and achievement and making other people feel good along the way can be a bad thing.
"I always approach music by thinking about the person I'm playing with and listening to the way they play and trying to enhance whatever is going on."
Charlie Haden
I'm sorry, Murphy, but you're going to have to point out specifically where I "attacked you personally" because I can't find it. I made an observation that includes a favorable compliment of your playing, and also talks about the frustration we have all experienced from not knowing enough of the tunes being played in a session we visit, but there's no personal attack there. I even talked about how I felt when I didn't know many of the tunes being played -- does that mean I was personally attacking myself?
PB
On this thread, you made personal and gossipy observations about someone using his name before he did likewise. You might not view your gossipy posts as ad hominem, but they're indisputably personal and unnecessary to bolster your argument. Of course, I suppose you're free to do that and, likewise, I suppose that means you're always free to personally attack, criticize, fondle, or do whatever to yourself in your posts, too. Enjoy!
Gilder, the only thing I can say is that your behaviour, like always, is obsessive. You see insults everywhere when in fact people don't even specifically name anyone. It also seems that you think you are the center of the universe. Murphy told us about his frustration about sessions, and the way he saw things, and then here you go with your first message:
>>
I go to sessions to play tunes with folks, drink a few pints, and enjoy the company of people I know and people I meet. Now I know why Jack doesn't approve of our sessions.
>>
That's it, it's all about *your* sessions now, even though Murphy didnt say anything about you and what he said about sessions could be said about many sessions around the planet. Now, there you go in your second post:
>>
My guess, based on what little I do know about Murphy, is that he actually likes sessions and would enjoy participating in them more. I think it’s more that he’s just frustrated with them and has a very negative way of dealing with it.
>>
There you go, let's criticize Muprhy personally. Oh, and in your second post
>>
I think everyone gets frustrated with this aspect of ITM, I know I did, but Murphy's response seems to be to lash out at the session and everyone in it. If he could channel that frustration into learning the tunes that are being played -- he’d become a very welcome addition. Instead, he chooses to insult us on public Internet message boards
>>
There again, your obsession and paranoia saw only insults in what Murphy said, and there you go with analysing Murphy and describing him as someone who lashes out at people. Gilder, I know I'm wasting my time typing, but maybe you ought, one day, to look at yourself in the mirror and maybe realize that you always seem to justify your personnal, direct insults because someone who wrote something about a general situation "insulted the whole world", a "whole generation of musicians" or whatever else. This is how you justify calling someone a newbie or telling someone to go back home and practice his embouchure. This is crazy, your one sided vision of things is so obvious it's almost frightening.
Laitch, Jack was brought up by several members on this thread before I did, Jack was himself a topic in the thread. I made an observation that contained no personal attacks.
Azalin, none of your examples are personal attacks. All you're doing is reading your own interpretation into them. I made an observation, I attempted to explain (as others had already pointed out) why Jack might be so negative about sessions. There are no insults or personal attacks. Sorry.
Divorcing this conversation from the Jackspat, I am still trying to work out why sessions are bad for a person, developmentally. Or is it just specific kinds of sessions, like ones with characteristics similar to the 5 Sessions are Not points?
Perhaps you could say that sessions are bad for you developmentally if:
1. It is the only time you play and you are better player than almost anyone in the session, and you cannot really hear the people who are as good or better?
2. The session, in general, has really bad rhythm and it is just ruining your playing to listen to it and to play that way?
As was pointed out, it is hard to refute Murph's original post because he says "sometimes" so often. However, I think he might have simply said: "not practicing is bad".
We're never gong to get this to 100 posts if we divorce it from "Jackspat", a term I have now ranked right up there in my personal lexicon with "insipidity."
On the other hand,
I'd guess any truly talented polemists would have a thick skins and, rather than rebut, would embrace frothy, tactless, personal or impotent criticism as unqualified proof of their righteousness, encourage it, then move on.
I have to admit that I laughed when I saw "Jackspat," but I'm a non participant this time around. I suppose I'll just stay away from any threads Murphy starts from now on so as not to be dragged into any "Jackspat."
Still, Murphy called a "heretics dictionary" as if to imply that he knew it would fly in the face of everyone's view, so give him credit for having the guts to start a lively one.
No doubt sessions with absolutely ace players are lively and creative processes. No doubt, too, some of the lesser ones, in which people are great pals, everyone has a great time despite the music. I sometimes wonder, though, about the lesser quality ones (which I, sadly, appear to be doomed to be qualified for!). There's one I visit from time to time; as a visitor, I suppose, I'm not really privy to the so-called craic, but I find myself wondering what there is about the music that keeps these people coming back week after week. The tunes never change, the sort of lame execution of them always stays at the same level, the one fiddler still plays from the same, dog-eared pack of dots... It seems sort of burdened by its own incestuousness. You can walk in and enjoy playing with them now and then, I guess, but it definitely seems like several of Murphy's points apply.
I think you can make a general observation like Murphy did without condemning the process. I don't think sessions per se are bad, but it's true that some session members shouldn't look to certain ones as helping their game.
Larsheen, sorry for being dense, I've just come round to seeing the sort of thing you were getting at ... I can't disagree with anything you say in the post above(!)
i have been playing about five or six years. a couple of years ago, i was told adamantly on separate occasions by more than one irish master-level musician, not to go to sessions if i was serious about playing the music well. the consensus advice was that one does not become a musician at sessions, and that sessions can hamper or destroy the development of a beginner or intermediate level player. these points have also been made on various threads here, i believe.
i have taken this advice to heart, and though i session privately with several other players, i spend the vast majority of my playing time practicing at home and listening to great recordings. i also take "lessons" which consist of practice sessions with a master musician who plays a different instrument from mine. i spend my festival time in ireland avoiding "traveler sessions" in favor of skulking around and sitting (or standing) and watching my heroes (i believe this in-person watching/listening is a small but crucial puzzle piece in the larger picture of musical development. hey, think of kurt cobain, lurking around those seattle garages watching his elders and betters, viz, the mekons!)
larsheen is right on....and it's never too late to start, y'all.
I like sessions.
I think that all the stuff above about how it may not be the best way to improve your playing is probably correct. But going to sessions doesn't stop you having lessons, practicing at home, or listening to great recordings.
The above comments are like going on to an angling message-board and stating the blindly obvious fact that you would be a far more efficient catcher of fish if you restricted yourself to using a net, and didn't waste valuable time waving a rod around.
Very true but irrelevant in the context.
Ceemonster, while playing at sessions won't necessarily improve your music quite as much as taking lessons I definitely wouldn't discount it. For a start, it's a great place to hear new techniques, ornamentations, variations, new versions of tunes and importantly it's a place where you can "network", for want of a better word. Where else are you going to meet potential teachers, or people who are friends of potential teachers? Sessions open up a world of opportunities in terms of learning, experience and friendships. Like it or not, they are the mainstay of the living, breathing developing animal that is Irish music and if they're good enough for these so-called heroes to attend.... what's stopping you?
I go to sessions to improve my social life. To improve my music I practice at home and listen whenever I can. The reward for practicing and listening is going to sessions and having fun playing music..
Even if you take private lessons and practice assiduously at home, getting a fine technique and musicianship on the way, I think it is nevertheless important to get used to playing in public and passing on your music to others rather than just incestuously playing to yourself, your teacher or your family. And what better place to do this than a session?
This advice applies generally to anyone learning to play music, whether it's instrumental classical, jazz, trad or pop, or vocal. Imho it's never too early to start playing in public, or at any rate as soon as you can hold the instrument and scratch out some sort of a tune. And for the classically inclined there are usually beginners' orchestras or choral groups in many areas who are happy to take in new players or singers.
So what do people go to sessions for? I go to
-meet friends
-have a drink or two
-play tunes
not necessarily in that order.
None of the sessions I go to have a leader, a froeign concept to me. Why do you need one if you're just getting together with friends for a drink and some tunes?
OK, so most sessions are bad. But so are most of the albums ever published, and most of the musicians in the world, not to mention all those wanna be musicians and those no hoper frame drum thwackers. But take a broader view of it. Most cars are not great cars. Most jobs suck. Most of the people in the world live in abject poverty.
Most sessions in the world are bad simply because they have the weight of the odds stacked against them.
But regularly hidden within some sessions lies some of the most outstandingly brilliant music of this genre you will ever find any where.
1. It can beat anything ever recorded because the best of the music has an ephemeral spontaneity at it's heart.
2. And it can beat anything you can play on your own because the best of the music is communication.
3. And it can beat anything you can hear in a concert because, as it is not a performance, it is ego free.
4. And it can beat anything you could try to re-create in someone's home because to play this music at its best, you have to loose your head. (not a very polite thing to do in your mate's kitchen.
conan, you're right about sessions being great places to network, see ornamentation, meet teachers, etc------that is, if you live in an area with enough proficient core trad players out at sessions. i just experienced this in white plains during a trip to nyc last month. but where i live, we don't have that infrastructure of "original gangsters." the serious veterans in our area stay away from most of the open sessions for reasons posted above. it is a waste of time for them. at many of the sessions, what there are, are speed demons, wannabe clones of the latest hopped-up-sounding trad-star-bands du jour, and people whose chops are not up to their speed, if you know what i mean. i agree with the posters who feel you take your chops to a session to have fun. you don't get chops sessioning, and in players who aren't there yet technique-wise, you can hurt your chops sessioning. i do session, but in closed sessions at friends' houses. not because we're any hot stuff, but because it's the only way we can ensure not getting hijacked. and it is a blast!
We're in broad agreement here and down to the "splitting hairs" level, which is no bad thing after more than a hundred posts.
Yes, there is always varying levels of ability at a session, but a session typically lasts 3, 4 maybe 5 hours, and that's a lot of tunes. Plenty of time to sideline the dross for a while.
And maybe Edinburgh is a little different in that we all live in flats and neighbors, quite rightly, complain. We do play in our flats, but it's really more of a sedate affair
The important point to remember though, is that a session is what you make of it. Yes I'm fortunate to live in a small town with considerably more than a handful of truly outstanding players who have either given up the stage or save their egos for it. Your session should carefully construct itself over a period of years so that anyone visiting it is in no doubt of what behavior is tolerable. And there is no embarrassment when you have to ask people politely not to play. And, the bar should be as comfortable, if not more so, than your kitchen.
The worst thing about sessions are the errant preconceptions that a few visiting individuals bring into it. The trouble seems to always stem from those visitors who are expecting the session to serve their own interests rather than accepting it for whatever the people having the session had in mind when they started it.
Because most sessions are held in public and everyone is usually welcome, people will assume that the session is operating according to some sort of universal set of rules. The problem is that there is no such set of rules, and the concepts vary from session to session. The only way to adapt to a session you're interested in participating in, is to first understand and accept what it is no matter how different it might be from the session you're familiar with, (or hoping for.) Instead of enjoying the session for what it is they're concern is "what you want to get out of it."
It would be interesting to note that people who harbor the same sorts of complaints this thread is based on still regularly attend the same sessions regardless of their contempt for them. If sessions were as bad as they claim -- why do they still bother going to them?
Yes, where I like to play, "the errant preconceptions that a few visiting individuals bring into it" IS the biggest problem. It's such a famous bar that it's inevitable. But as I said, it's pretty straight forward to sort these people out. And the most important reason to sort these people out is not fo their own good (though that's a welcome by-product) but to keep the reputation so that when good players come to town, they are not dissapointed
It is easier to express in words what is bad about a session than what is good. If sessions were as bad as it appears from some of the comments on this discussion board, there wouldn't be any.
But fortunately, for those who open themselves to the music, and are flexible enough to become part of a communal experience, there is a wonderful world awaiting.....
Why Sessions Are Bad
Why Sessions Are Bad
According to my heretic's dictionary.
Sessions are:
1. A place that sometimes breeds stylistic insipidity by creating bland, mediocre and homogenized players.
2. A place where the music can be marginalized and lowered to a common denominator
3. A place where sometimes the music falters without the presence of strong accompaniment because people lack the ability to keep time.
4. A place where sometimes the music falters because of the presence of strong accompaniment due to the fact that the melody players can create a better rhythm/pulse/flow/etc without the accompaniment.
5. A place that can create stunted players who can "play the tune once somebody else starts it" but can't carry a tune on their own.
6. A place where beginners, people who are looking to meet people and learn about the tradition, might fall into the traps of becoming a mediocre player.
7. A place where there are sometimes so many musicians playing that The Music becomes lost because everybody is too busy shouting and nobody is listening.
8. A place that should be a musical conversation between people rather than a wall of sound.
9. A place that can be antithetical to the spirit of the due to the presence of a "strong session leader" and a "well run" session.
10. Are places to have fun and share the music rather than show off.
11. Are best organically taken for what they are and excepting that.
According to my heretic's dictionary
Sessions are not:
1. A place were a local so called or expert (strong leader) decides that he/she is king of his/her particular mole hill so he/she can rule his/her subjects by deciding what tunes to play, where to sit, when to talk and what to talk about.
2. A place to become a great player, necesarily.
3. An authoratarian society where friends succomb to a leader because they need strict guidlines for playing.
4. Private preformances held under the disguise of a public session so that somebody can have a bunch of "guests" sit there and listen to that somebody and somebody's close friends play tunes that nobody has heard of that they stole of (enter somebodies cd) for 2/3rds of the evening.
5. An entity to be run through a rigorous penal system and sprayed down with pesticides.
There's also a few footnote in my heretic's dictionary.
*Sometimes sessions, when the stars align, can generate some great craic and some amazing music. These sessions are also a place where great friends can be made, friends for life. These are the sessions that we seek and the sessions that keep us coming back for more.
Sometimes you need to read between the lines a bit and analyze your local session, your goals and what you want to get out of it. I'm not speaking from a soapbox, I'm just trying to do my small part by argueing for better, more productive concept of a session, and of creating stylistically unique: players. Lets just try to honor those who have given this music to us by playing and passing it on in that spirit...
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I'm 100% supportive of the creation of any definition
that uses the word "insipidity."
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I don't have much time to comment at the moment, Jack. However, although all these negative aspects do occur and sometimes even predominate, we often have to accept sessions as they are ... "warts and all".
Sometimes, too much analysing can just get in the way of enjoyment. That's not to say one should be reckless and unthoughtful of others or consistently break the rules of session etiquette. Let's not argue about those just how.
Anyway, if there is such a thing as a perfect session, it's very elusive. It won't necessarily happen if you keep on attempting to change things all the time. Yes, you can have regular sessions which are consistently good but there will always be minor imperfections and aspects which will not suit everybody.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Wow! If only this was the session 'ethos' universally.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Jack, it's spelt "arguing".
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Why is 10 a bad thing?
Which do you want? 3 or 4?
Why is your dictionary so bad on spelling?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Paul_draper
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Because it's heretical, Paul.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Are all 10 what sessions are, in the writer's view?
Some of these seem to be what the author thinks a session 'should be' (God forbid!) (Nos. 8, 10
Some of them are observations of what he doesn't like about sessions (certain sessions?) (Nos. 1 - 7 and 9)
At least one has the appearance of gibberish (No.11?)
The "Sessions are not" section sounds like a snipe at someone or somewhere specific disguised as general comment.
Sounds like you need to start your own session, if you can find enough like-minded people in your area, and not worry so much about what other people are doing.
But I do add my endorsement of your use of the word insipidity - it doesn't see the light of day often enough in my opinion.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Is this the so-called heretics dictionary?
http://www.fetchbook.info/search_Chaz_Bufe/searchBy_Author.html
Says AMERICAN heretics dictionary.....
hmmm...
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
" Because it's heretical"
Summon the Inquisition!
(cue Cardinal Biggles)
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Paul_draper
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...........
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Nobody ...
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
These statements are true because almost every item in the list has the word "sometimes" in it in some form or another.
All these things are true sometimes, but not just of sessions. Whether you go to a Rolling Stones concert, a performance by the London Philharmonic Orchestra or your local session, the music falters sometimes, and breeds stylistic instupidity sometimes, mediocrity sometimes, power struggles sometimes, etc sometimes. In other words, you can replace "Sessions are:" with "Any place is:"
I go to my session for the "othertimes".
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Shrog
Looking for a session in Eastern Connecticut.
Any Sessiun players in Eastern Ct? I am looking for something celtic anywhere from Norwich and North. Any Celtic players in the area want to start something? Preferably on the 1st and 3rd tuesdays on the month. I heard there is a new Irish pub opening or opened down in Norwich. Could be fun.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mthatcher61
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Mark, you seem to be lost again!
If it's not the Sahara, it's The Session Website ....
tut tut
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
The key there is the word "sometimes." I think I'll keep going to mine. Thanks though for the "insight."
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
What are ye's talking about? Sometimes? The title of this discussion is Why Sessions ARE Bad. Nowt to do with sometimes.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Jack,
It sounds like a litany about the state of the human race. You'll never get away from it - no matter how far you travel, and no matter what language you evolve into, it will eventually catch up.
The upside is the music itself. What can you hear in in, over the cacophony of the human condition?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Yes but we read more than just the title.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Shrog
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Ottery,
Oy i'm not that 'Mark Thatcher'. No relation to the iron Maiden that I'll admit to. We have been on this side of the big pond for 13 generations. So I am safely enough removed from 'herself'. Plus, I'm more into fiddlin than taking over third world countries or driving fast.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mthatcher61
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Sorry Mark, I couldn't resist it
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
No Problem Ottery. I don't worry about being compared to that twit. I get it all the time. My wife is a Derbyshire Lass and her Dad has no qualms about ribbing the Yank Son in Law. ;)
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mthatcher61
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Good post, Jack. I think when people get into Irish music they often seem to make the mistake and think that sessions are the end-all and be-all of irish music. they're not. they're just one aspect of the social dimension of ITM. I also caution beginners not to indulge in sessions too much for it can seriously mess up the process of learning.
Dennis Cahill once said that he never expected much musically out of sessions. He went to socialize and have fun. If there was great music, then all the better. But it should not be an expectation. I don't think this is elitist. Just accepting reality.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Brendan
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
'I also caution beginners not to indulge in sessions too much for it can seriously mess up the process of learning'.
Brendan, that's a great illustration of why these discussions are always so circular, and occasionally descend into acrimony.
Some people will see playing/learning as a process of self-improvement. Some people see music as a largely phatic activity.
The two viewpoints are not completely exclusive, but they must cause a conflict of interest in the context of an 'open' session.
I didn't see J.M.s post as a criticism of sessions, as you seem to - I took it more as a diatribe against certain types of session ....
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Point taken ottery. No acrimony intended. some session are boring, suck, and tend toward bland mediocre playing. others don't. as far as playing and learning is concerned, i still stick by my advice not to indulge too much in sessions. the best sessions are of course where there's a combination of brialliant music and omega-three-phatic activity.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Brendan
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
"...that is why they were good…because they played with good musicians."
A very good point. I've been at poor quality sessions where the quality of my playing has done nothing to raise the overall standard of the music - technically or craically (which are part of the same beast, anyway). I have also played in a few sessions of the highest standard, where none of the other musicians seemed to regard me as anything other than 'one of them' - I do not suggest that the quality of my playing was anywhere near the standard of 'the masters', just that I was apparently well able to use what musical faculties I have to good effect.
However, I have also played in great sessions where no individual musician could be considered especially good. No doubt it has to do with lots of things - the combination of people, the acoustics of the venue, the phases of the moon etc. But I think certain musicians, regardless of their technical standard, or even their taste or feeling for traditional music, have the abilty to drive a session and get everyone playing at their best.
All of Jack's points hold some truth. But I think, for most session players, the primary and perhaps only purpose of a session is to play music together and enjoy it (learning is an inevitable by-product, as it is of most things) - and this is what we all strive for. It is difficult to achieve it every time, especially at regular sessions, which rarely* have the same magic as the truly spontaneous ones (which happen because they _must_ happen, not because they are _expected_ to happen).
A session is a variable - from week to week, venue to venue, people to people - beyond even the realms of fractal mathematics, I would wager. Jack's statement #11, if I understood it correctly, says it all - and more-or-less renders all the foregoing statements redundant.
*I speak from my own experience. Perhaps some people know the spell for making it happen every week.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Believe me Brendan - some of the sessions round here would be greatly improved by the injection of some bland mediocre playing (If mediocre is one step up from abysmal!)
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
“Some people see music as a largely phatic activity.”
And some see it as a largely phallic activity.
Oooooh, why did I say that? Leaving now …
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I go to sessions to play tunes with folks, drink a few pints, and enjoy the company of people I know and people I meet. Now I know why Jack doesn't approve of our sessions.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Ya ever notice how some people have nothing better to do thatn stir up a pot of sh*te and some others havs nothing better to do than resposnd to it.
Ya ever notice how some people are really full of their own opinions and they really need to get over themselves.
C'mon, It's only fiddle-dee-dee music
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Chef Paul
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Would that be yer honest opinion there, Chef?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
"Now I know why Jack doesn't approve of our sessions."
The good news is that since our sessions or so horrific, he won't be there to act like a jerk. Sounds like a good deal to me!
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I think it's like that corny old fisherman's saying: "The worst day of fishing is better than the best day of work."
A good session is better than a mediocre one, but a mediocre session is better than none at all. And if some experienced players show up to help out, the mediocre session just might improve.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Given the choice between playing "stylistically insipid" music with my friends OR playing technically perfect and stylistically orthodox tunes alone, I'd opt for the former much of the time.
Anybody else find it ironic that a post blasting the session experience is posted on this website??
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Yes, worms... I find it ironic too. My guess, based on what little I do know about Murphy, is that he actually likes sessions and would enjoy participating in them more. I think it’s more that he’s just frustrated with them and has a very negative way of dealing with it.
I have to say, his playing has improved dramatically since he first showed up at my house for a lesson or two, but just like all of us -- it takes time to learn enough tunes to participate in sessions the way we would like to. When Murphy has shown up at sessions I’ve either been hosting or participating in, he only knows one or two of the tunes that are played during the night, and for that reason the hosts always invite him to start a tune or two -- as would be the case with anyone else. I think everyone gets frustrated with this aspect of ITM, I know I did, but Murphy's response seems to be to lash out at the session and everyone in it. If he could channel that frustration into learning the tunes that are being played -- he’d become a very welcome addition. Instead, he chooses to insult us on public Internet message boards. But I could be wrong about all this -- it's just a guess.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
phantom, i got frustrated, bitter even, with that sort of thing too when I was a beginner, sitting throulgh sessions and not even being able to play more than a few tunes. that is in part why i recommend that beginners not make sessions the mainstay of their ITM goals and aspirations.
wow, larsheen, i think you have walloped us with a dose of the truth...
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Brendan
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I think we all did to a certain degree. At first, out of frustration, I made the mistake of noodling on the tunes I didn't know just so I wouldn't be sitting there doing nothing for so long. I soon realized that other people around me who were trying to play the tune found this to be quite annoying -- so I stopped. Then I took up smoking because rolling ciggies and smoking them gave me something to do. I also took up the bodhran and actually became quite good... or so I've been told. Eventually I was playing tunes more than the bodhran, and I could give up the rollies. (I only smoked at sessions, so I wasn't hooked.) Nowadays I take the bodhran along because I enjoy playing it here and there. But during that time when I didn't know many tunes it was sometimes difficult to maintain a positive outlook on the whole thing. Sometimes I thought I should just leave the flute and concertina at home and enjoy listening instead until I had enough tunes under my belt. I wish I could have taken my own advice.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Criticising the concept of the session itself is completely ridiculous. Mickray hits the nail on the head - if I walk by chance into an unknown bar I am far happier to find a 'mediocre' session taking place than none at all. Let's get off our affected purist high horses here. Yes, we should all be aware of our level and whether we actually contribute or detract from a particular session. This takes sensitivity and experience (gained from time spent in sessions, I might add...) And yes, the listed points raised by the original post all certainly occur from time to time. But the suggestion that the session concept itself has a negative impact on people's playing abilities and the music itself is, frankly, nonsense. On the contrary, sessions are where most people are first exposed to the music, become interested in it, learn session etiquette and pick up tips on how to play from better players. Of course there are exceptions. But to use these exceptions as the basis for such a pointed argument misses the session spirit entirely. ITM is not an exclusive music - there is a place for all sessions. If you can' t find a local session that suits you then start your own or, alternatively, just stay at home.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Doodle
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
For about the first year when I was a raw beginner and started going to sessions I didn't play the fiddle I had with me. I was quite content to sit and listen to the music and to absorb it. In retrospect this is something I've never regretted. It certainly wasn't a waste of time.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I don't know about your presumptions, Phantom. After having known Murphy for so long I am pretty sure he would sooner get frustrated with facing low musicality in a session than not being able to get a tune in.
Regarding this thread, Brendan and Lasheen really said what I feel about the situation in sessions. The main problem I have with most of the sessions people have convenient access to is that they do not encourage upping your game in musicality at all. There is no element of stylistics, character, or subtlety in the music of most sessions that it cannot be a conducive environment for one to get good. Instead your average sessioneer is just happy to be able to have played the tune through in unison with a wall of sound, in a non-descript, characterless style. I mean, if this level of musicality is all you ask of yourself more power to you. But if you intend to get good in this music, viewing sessions at the end-all and be-all to Irish music will be a sure way of dooming yourself to musical mediocrity.
"On the contrary, sessions are where most people are first exposed to the music, become interested in it, learn session etiquette and pick up tips on how to play from better players"
- Doodle
All this is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Edit: "sessions most people have convenient access to", not "most sessions people have convenient access to"
subtle difference
Also spelt Larsheen wrongly, sorry about that.
p.s. dang the lack of the edit button!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Oh you're so right, Eldarion... how could I not see that the best approach for a newbie flute player that's moving to a town with a ITM community is to criticize the poor quality of the sessions there and proclaim that their all ruining the music. That would be sure to inspire all the locals and win their friendship.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Usually I hate to stir sh*t unnecessarily, but c'mon, Eldarion....
"the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities"
First, I'd say that the "session concept" varies a great deal, from session to session. Spice of life and all that.
"as we know it"--have you taken a poll? who's this "we"?
"negative impact on the people's playing abilities"--I can't imagine a broader generalization. Every person at every ITM session becomes a worse player by the experience? Hard to believe.
Why not consider the glass to be half full--at least they're not at some loud, ugly, biggest-amp-wins garage-rock "jam session"--and strive for improvement?
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Whats this got to do with winning friendships? Its saying it like it is, talking about the standard of music. Though I do suppose that for some with egos of the ginormous variety, or skins of the paper-thin variety, any criticism of their music might feel like a personal affront to themselves and their mothers.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Sessions are bad because:
1) They force me to drink too much and I end up with a hangover the next day.
2) They force me to get home late so I have a job getting up in the morning for work.
3) They force me to be in a pub for an extended period of time which means that my clothes end up smelling of smoke.
Apart from that I can't think of anything.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
"it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on people's playing abilities"
Eldorian, this is an opinion, not a fact.
Sessions are certainly not the be-all and end-all of ITM but I'm sure you'd agree that they play a significant role. Sure, playing a small select kitchen session is far more likely to provide musical fulfillment than playing in a noisy, crowded pub session with a group of beginners and/or session destroyers, but there is a wide spectrum in between.
And while it is one thing to play to the best of your ability with all those stylistic nuances in the comfort and familiarity of a private house setting, it is quite another to reproduce that in a session environment with all the variables involved. Do you really want to be someone who can only play when the surrounding circumstances are perfect? Good session playing is a skill which improves with the number and variety of sessions you play in.
Sessions help you to learn to play with a wide variety of people, friends and strangers alike; they help you play under a variety of pressures; you are exposed to new tunes and settings; you are able to observe different styles, techniques and approaches; you learn to give and take advice. This has truly been my session experience over the years. I find the 'sessions are bad for people's playing' statement extremely blinkered.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Doodle
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Eldarion, if you think insulting people is a way to win friends because you're just "saying it like it is"... I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're making it up to be funny... but I don't think you are amazingly enough.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Well I debated on whether posting again or just letting the words up above stand and allow people to take what they will from then but I must make a reply to Gilder's baseless, and completely wrong psychoanalysis.
I could go on and on about how many tunes I actually know, about how I don't like to interupt sessions to play my tunes in my style, about how anybody knows me knows that I could sit there all night and not play a tune and have a great time, about how many times I've been run out of town for my opinoins (zero times), about how many friends I have in the city who play music (more than you most likely). I simply don't feel the need to rationalize and defend myself. I know what I'm about and what I'm not about. I know that I had a great couple of years of sessions at the bodhran and I know that I can have a house full of people rockin till 6 in the morning playing tunes. I think maybe you need to get over the fact that I only took 2 lessons from you back in the day and stopped, the fact that I don't attend your sessions, the fact that my flute playing might threaten you (somebody else's words, not mine[because I could care less]) and the fact I don't need to agree with everything you say and you don't need to agree with everything I say. Take solice in the fact that the sun will still rise tomorrow regardless of what I type on this here forum.
Jack
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
It's funny, everytime Murphy says something about a situation in general, Gilder gets offended and goes for the personnal attacks. I'm sure Murphy doesnt like Gilder's sessions for the same reasons I would not like them, and I know it's not about "the number of tunes Murphy knows". The thing I really don't understand is why is it bothering Gilder so much what Murphy thinks about the sessions in San Francisco? It doesnt fit Gilder's personality. Gilder should not be bothered by anything outside the small bubble that's surrounding him. But I might be wrong, I'm only guessing.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Azalin
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Sorry eldarion, but what on earth do you mean by 'All this is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that the session concept as we know it has an overall negative impact on the people's playing abilities.'
'Playing abilities' for what?
For playing at the Royal Albert Hall?
For when The Chieftains come to town and invite you to help them out on stage?
This is a website for people who play at sessions. It's what we like to do. It's not 'training' for some imaginary future existance when we make exquisite music in some other context.
And if some of you think that sessions are necessarilly crap musically, just go to Kerryfiddles.com and look at some of the little videos of sessions at the Herschell at the Dave Williams weekend.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Pah!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Without sessions the music would be dead.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Seriously? Come on now, I'm trying to get some sleep. Sessions, refering to the pub sessions generally discussed on this site didn't exist until the 1950's-60's when they were started up in England. The music was quite alright before them and will most likely be quite alright without them.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Azalin, what personal attacks from me are you referring to. I could only find personal attacks against me on this thread.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Although I find the bitching between the two Jacks a bit tiresome, I can see merits in the arguments from both sides.
However, Jack Murphy, I'd suggest that the number of tunes you know is irrelevant in a session situation. You have to be able to play the bulk of the repertoire there and be prepared to "fit into" whosever session it is. This may mean learning the tunes you don't already know and even adapting your style. You're right though about sessions being only one part(and relatively recent at that) of Irish Music. You are free to play all your "own" tunes as you wish in different situations and even some other sessions as appropriate. "As appropriate" being the defining words of the last sentence.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
That's right Jack the world has not changed at all since the 1950's.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Jack, you started the personal attacks in your first post of this thread. I posted in the beginning and for 20 some on odd posts nobody mentioned your name. Then all of a sudden, like you did in this thread and others, you attack the messanger and give a insulting analysis of why a certain person thinks a certain way. You've insulted me and my playing more than once and even though you've changed your tune from "mediocre" to "dramatic improvement" you're still insulting me nonetheless. I've never made remarks about your playing or the number of tunes you may have or may not have and may or may not make a bullox out of them. I've never said your session is crap and it's complete (maybe true) paranoya that makes you think you're the center of everything I do. Maybe some of the comments hit a little too close to home in my first post. I don't know.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Jack, PP is right. Whereabouts nowadays would the music exist without sessions? If you think it would survive simply in people's houses in this day and age when no-one goes anywhere without an invite, I think you're wrong. Virtually every band I can think of worth their salt started out playing in sessions together. Sessions and session musicians can sometimes be a bloody nightmare, but they are are alive and vibrant and provide an accessible entry point to the music - even if some of the more competent players do go on to play solo at the Albert Hall(!)
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Ok, please don't all jump on me for this first statment I will qualify it honest.....
)
If you're going to a session to play the music perfecty then don't go !!!!!!!!
I have to say, I've been going to sessions and backing tunes and singing songs for a few years now and I don't think I've ever done it exactly the same was twice, playing with others means you cant and irrelevant of how good they are you always add somethng to them and they always add to you, if you do it right (and i don't mean play it perfectly) it should be this wonderful social and musical experience. I still believe sessions are the best way to learn but not as an individual, I had the benefit of finding someone very quickly who played in a way I liked and basically going along to sessions with him, I learned from him and others but used him as a yardstick for the way I wanted to be, he has since told me to stop watching him as it's keeping me back (nothing wrong with blowing ones own !!!
Take a session for what it is, a gathering of like minded people who all want to play the same music and have some fun, if you take it as seriously as this threads originator your kinda missing the point of the whole thing ! and as far as I'm concerned this in no way qualifies you as a musician, if he's so perfect why doesn't he sit in on these so called mediocre sessions and improve them by his very presence !?!?!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by bloodyfiddlers
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I would say that the main enblandising force in Irish Trad music is Conhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann with it’s stylistic favourites. I've heard more Irish regional variety at Pub sessions here in Manchester then you ever get from the Kiddies at CCE events.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Too right, Pied!
And one of the other important roles of the session is as a force to keep the music rooted. Now that it has spread from the community which originally gave the music meaning, it needs the democracy of the session to keep it from changing TOO fast. If it's left in the hands of the experts, they will surely mess with it. It's simple stuff, and doesn't keep them satisfied for long(!) Look how the Blue-grass boys took that lovely old-tymey music and screwed it up with their heartless virtuosity. I love Lunasa, but they sound as Asturian to me as they do Irish these days! (Come to think of it I think a Llan De Cubell set was played a at the Herschell a few weeks ago - great fun, but no danger of that becoming the sound of the session)
No, I wouldn't trust the elite who turn their noses up at sessions with the future of the music.
Frankly.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Who are 'the elite' and why would they turn their noses up?
What is your definition of an elitist?
When you play in sessions that at times can be dominated by tourists who were given a bodhrán at xmas and think they can join in a session, does that mean that the core musicians who play there week after week after week, sometimes when they are the only people in the bar, are elitist because they would like to keep the session centered?
Who wants to sit of a night fighting through untuned whistles flute or other instruments, whilst straining to hear from the periphery of what is normally your local set, because the bad mannered individuals hadnt the wit to see what the etiquette was and sat in your seat before you even got there. And just because a session starts at a particular time, cant be justification for that, I am often late, either because of work, family commitments or the bloody car wont start.
I personally wouldnt dream of upsetting anyone elses regular tunes. I always ask can I join in, and iF the session is late starting, I wait until the players arrive before sitting down. I am a guest after all, and it is ultimately up to them if I can join in. If they dont let me then I go somewhere else!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by blas
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
As for taking it seriously, some of us have a living to make, and cant afford for bar managers to cancel a session because it was disjointed, badly organised and the bodhran and guitars have taken over to the point where the clients get up and go somewhere else.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by blas
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Who are 'the elite' and why would they turn their noses up?
Sorry, Blas, that was a bit vague, I was having a bit of a dig at those above who seem to think that sessions are in general a bad thing - the term elite was meant to be a tad ironic ....
No-one is arguing in favour of poor quality sessions - are they?
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Larsheen, lots of house sessions go on now. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If, as you say, you took all the open sessions out of the equation tomorrow, of course the music would survive, but I personally think it would lose what has become an important support mechanism. You may disagree with my opinion on this, but I don't know why you think it is 'rubbish'.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Ooops!
I've just had my attention drawn to the fact I mentioned kerryfiddles.com somewhere in the reams of hot air
The movies mentioned are in fact at kerrywhistles .com
Oh well, the weekend will be here soon, and I won't have to waste my time posting nonsense here
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Familiarity breeds contempt!.
Be a session hopper then you will have less bad sessions.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I will re-phrase that to say "fewer bad sessions" .... these pedants get everywhere.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
[Rant]
Just speaking from personal experience here, but sessions are one of the defining attractions of this music. For me, it certainly beats the hell out of the pipe band scene for numerous reasons. I suspect a LOT of folks who started playing it got hooked on the social elements first, and got serious about honing their skills shortly thereafter. Sessions, at least in the states, are a gateway drug into the music itself.
I'd further venture to say that without open, public sessions, this music would survive, but a hell of a lot fewer people would be playing it. The quality *might* be better, but that's pure speculation and would be impossible to prove without outlawing public playing. Nonetheless, a fair number of players "graduate" from playing merely for the craic into something more serious, technically and stylistically. It seems disingenuous to bash the initial attraction.
Does the litany of offences compiled by JackM have a basis in reality? Absolutely. BUT. . . y'all must have some goddawful bad luck if that's what dominates the playing in your areas. Or maybe I am just lucky and grateful to have what we have locally.
BUt I guess I am a heretic because I like Lunasa, guitars, and the Bothy Band, and don't think that some folk music is automatically *better* than other music simply because it might be older. I categorically reject the vague blanket assertions that
- modern playing is deficient stylistically,
- deficient in terms of "feeling" (However nebulously defined),
- deficient in terms of "authenticity" or cultural merit (However nebulously defined)
There is value in celebrating diversity and innovation, just as there is value in preserving and celebrating older forms and styles of music.
[/Rant]
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Recordings like Paddy in the Smoke and Live at Mona's show that the playing at pub sessions can be of very high quality indeed, so the potential is certainly there. Most sessions I've played at (or mostly listened to, in some cases) aspire to that high standard.
At one session I'm familiar with, there surely can be a "wall of sound" during the well-known tunes--but then the co-leaders (plus or minus a couple of heavy hitters) will start a more obscure tune, and the rest of us listen and learn. I can't see anything wrong with that.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Good lass, Larsh. It gets to the stage where it's not even tedious, just not worth reading. I just scroll down, couldn't be @rsed. Murphy has problems, big time, that's for sure.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Larsheen, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think there's anything 'definite' about the idea that going to sessions does not help you improve as a player. Perhaps constructive practice time at home alone or in a one-on-one with a better player is a quicker route to a higher standard of playing, but it doesn't mean that session playing has absolutely no positive effect on your playing. It obviously depends on the session and the individual player, but a lot can be gained from observing, listening to and playing with a wide range of different players in a session context.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Doodle
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
My original reason for going to sessions was to enjoy listening to real live ITM. Now I enjoy playing (whistle and bodrhan) I not only love listening I enjoy seeing those feet tapping, people smiling, sometimes dancing, the applause and cheers of approval at the end of a great set and knowing that I have, inpart, been responsible for that fun. I don't think that feeling good about ourselves through hard work and achievement and making other people feel good along the way can be a bad thing.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by flossie
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
"I always approach music by thinking about the person I'm playing with and listening to the way they play and trying to enhance whatever is going on."
Charlie Haden
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I'm sorry, Murphy, but you're going to have to point out specifically where I "attacked you personally" because I can't find it. I made an observation that includes a favorable compliment of your playing, and also talks about the frustration we have all experienced from not knowing enough of the tunes being played in a session we visit, but there's no personal attack there. I even talked about how I felt when I didn't know many of the tunes being played -- does that mean I was personally attacking myself?
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
PB
On this thread, you made personal and gossipy observations about someone using his name before he did likewise. You might not view your gossipy posts as ad hominem, but they're indisputably personal and unnecessary to bolster your argument. Of course, I suppose you're free to do that and, likewise, I suppose that means you're always free to personally attack, criticize, fondle, or do whatever to yourself in your posts, too. Enjoy!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Gilder, the only thing I can say is that your behaviour, like always, is obsessive. You see insults everywhere when in fact people don't even specifically name anyone. It also seems that you think you are the center of the universe. Murphy told us about his frustration about sessions, and the way he saw things, and then here you go with your first message:
>>
I go to sessions to play tunes with folks, drink a few pints, and enjoy the company of people I know and people I meet. Now I know why Jack doesn't approve of our sessions.
>>
That's it, it's all about *your* sessions now, even though Murphy didnt say anything about you and what he said about sessions could be said about many sessions around the planet. Now, there you go in your second post:
>>
My guess, based on what little I do know about Murphy, is that he actually likes sessions and would enjoy participating in them more. I think it’s more that he’s just frustrated with them and has a very negative way of dealing with it.
>>
There you go, let's criticize Muprhy personally. Oh, and in your second post
>>
I think everyone gets frustrated with this aspect of ITM, I know I did, but Murphy's response seems to be to lash out at the session and everyone in it. If he could channel that frustration into learning the tunes that are being played -- he’d become a very welcome addition. Instead, he chooses to insult us on public Internet message boards
>>
There again, your obsession and paranoia saw only insults in what Murphy said, and there you go with analysing Murphy and describing him as someone who lashes out at people. Gilder, I know I'm wasting my time typing, but maybe you ought, one day, to look at yourself in the mirror and maybe realize that you always seem to justify your personnal, direct insults because someone who wrote something about a general situation "insulted the whole world", a "whole generation of musicians" or whatever else. This is how you justify calling someone a newbie or telling someone to go back home and practice his embouchure. This is crazy, your one sided vision of things is so obvious it's almost frightening.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Azalin
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Laitch, Jack was brought up by several members on this thread before I did, Jack was himself a topic in the thread. I made an observation that contained no personal attacks.
Azalin, none of your examples are personal attacks. All you're doing is reading your own interpretation into them. I made an observation, I attempted to explain (as others had already pointed out) why Jack might be so negative about sessions. There are no insults or personal attacks. Sorry.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Divorcing this conversation from the Jackspat, I am still trying to work out why sessions are bad for a person, developmentally. Or is it just specific kinds of sessions, like ones with characteristics similar to the 5 Sessions are Not points?
Perhaps you could say that sessions are bad for you developmentally if:
1. It is the only time you play and you are better player than almost anyone in the session, and you cannot really hear the people who are as good or better?
2. The session, in general, has really bad rhythm and it is just ruining your playing to listen to it and to play that way?
As was pointed out, it is hard to refute Murph's original post because he says "sometimes" so often. However, I think he might have simply said: "not practicing is bad".
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Jode
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
We're never gong to get this to 100 posts if we divorce it from "Jackspat", a term I have now ranked right up there in my personal lexicon with "insipidity."
On the other hand,
I'd guess any truly talented polemists would have a thick skins and, rather than rebut, would embrace frothy, tactless, personal or impotent criticism as unqualified proof of their righteousness, encourage it, then move on.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
That, in fact, may be what Murph's done, except he skewed it with rebuttal.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I have to admit that I laughed when I saw "Jackspat," but I'm a non participant this time around. I suppose I'll just stay away from any threads Murphy starts from now on so as not to be dragged into any "Jackspat."
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
As if!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
No you won't, Jack.
I can't let you have the last word.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Yawn... Friday.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Precisely.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Could apply session.org member Eliot's classic term, "Re-yawn," too.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Anyone tipped any cows lately?
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
They're all in the barn. It's been snowing then raining lately. I tripped a mole the other day. He never saw it coming.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by ∅
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Okay, Larsheen, I'm with you all the way. Still waiting for Jack M and Eldorian to justify their sweeping statements, though!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Doodle
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Sounds like we are on the same track Larsheen. I wish we were so much so that I could get to Clare next weekend! Is that the Fleadh Nua?
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by Jode
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Still, Murphy called a "heretics dictionary" as if to imply that he knew it would fly in the face of everyone's view, so give him credit for having the guts to start a lively one.
No doubt sessions with absolutely ace players are lively and creative processes. No doubt, too, some of the lesser ones, in which people are great pals, everyone has a great time despite the music. I sometimes wonder, though, about the lesser quality ones (which I, sadly, appear to be doomed to be qualified for!). There's one I visit from time to time; as a visitor, I suppose, I'm not really privy to the so-called craic, but I find myself wondering what there is about the music that keeps these people coming back week after week. The tunes never change, the sort of lame execution of them always stays at the same level, the one fiddler still plays from the same, dog-eared pack of dots... It seems sort of burdened by its own incestuousness. You can walk in and enjoy playing with them now and then, I guess, but it definitely seems like several of Murphy's points apply.
I think you can make a general observation like Murphy did without condemning the process. I don't think sessions per se are bad, but it's true that some session members shouldn't look to certain ones as helping their game.
# Posted on April 8th 2006 by cuchulain54
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Larsheen, sorry for being dense, I've just come round to seeing the sort of thing you were getting at ... I can't disagree with anything you say in the post above(!)
# Posted on April 8th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
my playing improved alot through playing at sessions, its better than sitting at home going over poxy sheet music and playing to yourself
# Posted on April 10th 2006 by poldebrun
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
i have been playing about five or six years. a couple of years ago, i was told adamantly on separate occasions by more than one irish master-level musician, not to go to sessions if i was serious about playing the music well. the consensus advice was that one does not become a musician at sessions, and that sessions can hamper or destroy the development of a beginner or intermediate level player. these points have also been made on various threads here, i believe.
i have taken this advice to heart, and though i session privately with several other players, i spend the vast majority of my playing time practicing at home and listening to great recordings. i also take "lessons" which consist of practice sessions with a master musician who plays a different instrument from mine. i spend my festival time in ireland avoiding "traveler sessions" in favor of skulking around and sitting (or standing) and watching my heroes (i believe this in-person watching/listening is a small but crucial puzzle piece in the larger picture of musical development. hey, think of kurt cobain, lurking around those seattle garages watching his elders and betters, viz, the mekons!)
larsheen is right on....and it's never too late to start, y'all.
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I like sessions.
I think that all the stuff above about how it may not be the best way to improve your playing is probably correct. But going to sessions doesn't stop you having lessons, practicing at home, or listening to great recordings.
The above comments are like going on to an angling message-board and stating the blindly obvious fact that you would be a far more efficient catcher of fish if you restricted yourself to using a net, and didn't waste valuable time waving a rod around.
Very true but irrelevant in the context.
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Ceemonster, while playing at sessions won't necessarily improve your music quite as much as taking lessons I definitely wouldn't discount it. For a start, it's a great place to hear new techniques, ornamentations, variations, new versions of tunes and importantly it's a place where you can "network", for want of a better word. Where else are you going to meet potential teachers, or people who are friends of potential teachers? Sessions open up a world of opportunities in terms of learning, experience and friendships. Like it or not, they are the mainstay of the living, breathing developing animal that is Irish music and if they're good enough for these so-called heroes to attend.... what's stopping you?
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
I go to sessions to improve my social life. To improve my music I practice at home and listen whenever I can. The reward for practicing and listening is going to sessions and having fun playing music..
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Even if you take private lessons and practice assiduously at home, getting a fine technique and musicianship on the way, I think it is nevertheless important to get used to playing in public and passing on your music to others rather than just incestuously playing to yourself, your teacher or your family. And what better place to do this than a session?
This advice applies generally to anyone learning to play music, whether it's instrumental classical, jazz, trad or pop, or vocal. Imho it's never too early to start playing in public, or at any rate as soon as you can hold the instrument and scratch out some sort of a tune. And for the classically inclined there are usually beginners' orchestras or choral groups in many areas who are happy to take in new players or singers.
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
So what do people go to sessions for? I go to
-meet friends
-have a drink or two
-play tunes
not necessarily in that order.
None of the sessions I go to have a leader, a froeign concept to me. Why do you need one if you're just getting together with friends for a drink and some tunes?
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by minijackpot
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
OK, so most sessions are bad. But so are most of the albums ever published, and most of the musicians in the world, not to mention all those wanna be musicians and those no hoper frame drum thwackers. But take a broader view of it. Most cars are not great cars. Most jobs suck. Most of the people in the world live in abject poverty.
Most sessions in the world are bad simply because they have the weight of the odds stacked against them.
But regularly hidden within some sessions lies some of the most outstandingly brilliant music of this genre you will ever find any where.
1. It can beat anything ever recorded because the best of the music has an ephemeral spontaneity at it's heart.
2. And it can beat anything you can play on your own because the best of the music is communication.
3. And it can beat anything you can hear in a concert because, as it is not a performance, it is ego free.
4. And it can beat anything you could try to re-create in someone's home because to play this music at its best, you have to loose your head. (not a very polite thing to do in your mate's kitchen.
# Posted on April 12th 2006 by ...
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
conan, you're right about sessions being great places to network, see ornamentation, meet teachers, etc------that is, if you live in an area with enough proficient core trad players out at sessions. i just experienced this in white plains during a trip to nyc last month. but where i live, we don't have that infrastructure of "original gangsters." the serious veterans in our area stay away from most of the open sessions for reasons posted above. it is a waste of time for them. at many of the sessions, what there are, are speed demons, wannabe clones of the latest hopped-up-sounding trad-star-bands du jour, and people whose chops are not up to their speed, if you know what i mean. i agree with the posters who feel you take your chops to a session to have fun. you don't get chops sessioning, and in players who aren't there yet technique-wise, you can hurt your chops sessioning. i do session, but in closed sessions at friends' houses. not because we're any hot stuff, but because it's the only way we can ensure not getting hijacked. and it is a blast!
# Posted on April 13th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
We're in broad agreement here and down to the "splitting hairs" level, which is no bad thing after more than a hundred posts.
Yes, there is always varying levels of ability at a session, but a session typically lasts 3, 4 maybe 5 hours, and that's a lot of tunes. Plenty of time to sideline the dross for a while.
And maybe Edinburgh is a little different in that we all live in flats and neighbors, quite rightly, complain. We do play in our flats, but it's really more of a sedate affair
The important point to remember though, is that a session is what you make of it. Yes I'm fortunate to live in a small town with considerably more than a handful of truly outstanding players who have either given up the stage or save their egos for it. Your session should carefully construct itself over a period of years so that anyone visiting it is in no doubt of what behavior is tolerable. And there is no embarrassment when you have to ask people politely not to play. And, the bar should be as comfortable, if not more so, than your kitchen.
# Posted on April 13th 2006 by ...
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
The worst thing about sessions are the errant preconceptions that a few visiting individuals bring into it. The trouble seems to always stem from those visitors who are expecting the session to serve their own interests rather than accepting it for whatever the people having the session had in mind when they started it.
Because most sessions are held in public and everyone is usually welcome, people will assume that the session is operating according to some sort of universal set of rules. The problem is that there is no such set of rules, and the concepts vary from session to session. The only way to adapt to a session you're interested in participating in, is to first understand and accept what it is no matter how different it might be from the session you're familiar with, (or hoping for.) Instead of enjoying the session for what it is they're concern is "what you want to get out of it."
It would be interesting to note that people who harbor the same sorts of complaints this thread is based on still regularly attend the same sessions regardless of their contempt for them. If sessions were as bad as they claim -- why do they still bother going to them?
# Posted on April 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
Yes, where I like to play, "the errant preconceptions that a few visiting individuals bring into it" IS the biggest problem. It's such a famous bar that it's inevitable. But as I said, it's pretty straight forward to sort these people out. And the most important reason to sort these people out is not fo their own good (though that's a welcome by-product) but to keep the reputation so that when good players come to town, they are not dissapointed
# Posted on April 13th 2006 by ...
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
It is easier to express in words what is bad about a session than what is good. If sessions were as bad as it appears from some of the comments on this discussion board, there wouldn't be any.
But fortunately, for those who open themselves to the music, and are flexible enough to become part of a communal experience, there is a wonderful world awaiting.....
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Why Sessions Are Bad
by and large sessions are grand _all the rest of ye who don't agree can **** off
# Posted on May 7th 2006 by lisaniska