Is it only "trad." when no one remembers who wrote it? Does the composer have to be dead for it to be trad? ("Here, Mr. Fahy, that's not a traditional tune, you're still alive!") What are things that make a tune "traditional"? What things make a tune not traditional? If you know traditional when you hear it and not-traditional the same, doesn't that mean it's only your tradition and not necessarily The Tradition as a whole? Hmmm....
For Classical music, I believe the date when one is allowed to reprint original copies of a manuscript is 75 years. (I think...) Perhaps the same idea goes here...?
Something like that, in the USA, at least. But it's more complicated. I'm sure it's available on the Web somewhere. But i was being a little bit facetious with Zina.
I don't know when a tune becomes traditional. I think when it's a traditional tune, it's traditional from the moment it's created, but the decision on whether it belongs in that tradition (or another) has to be made by the community, not by any single person.
I like to think that "traditional" is just short hand for "composer unknown," and not really a statement about whether a tune meets certain "traditional" criteria. The influx of show tunes into the Irish tradition during the late 1800s and early 1900s brought many "non-traditional" tunes into the general repertoire, and some of these are listed in printed collections as "traditional" simply because their origin was lost.
Maybe a tune fits in the tradition when it's accepted and played by traditional musicians....(who are people playing traditional instruments with traditional techniques, and a well-founded sense of the tradition's historic range and depth). Is there a way to talk about this without relying on tautologies?
Defining what is meant by 'traditional' music can be virtually impossible. To say it is music of unknown provenance would be to rule out half the tunes we play plus of course the entire canon contributed by 'proper' composers like O'Carolan and O'Riada.
Luckily, it can be easy to define if we choose to accept Ciaran Carson's statement that "since traditional musicians call the music traditional music, we might as well call it that too". (Pocket Guide to Irish Traditional Music)
I think (using the term loosely, of course) that a tune is traditional when it is commonly played by *traditional* musicians. The Tradition is almost a living entity, or perhaps like a soup kettle gently cooking away--tunes get dropped in, float around, sink out of sight, get discarded or forgotten, blend in, change...and there is no definable moment when a tune becomes traditional. Each person has an idea of what it means, just as each person has an interpretation that is uniquely their own of a tune. This is a subject upon which I love to muse, and will hereby spare all of you...
Cassie
Traditional, coming from the root origin "tradere", or deliver, implies in its definition that something is being handed down from generation to generation. The music, customs, or beliefs that are traditional have to go through the process of being taught from one generation to the next within a culture in order to be "delivered" (usually orally). There is music that can be newly composed in the STYLE of traditional tunes, but in general "traditional" implies that the music is old enough to have gone through the process of being preserved by multiple generations and handed down from older to younger players, conforming to a cultural style that creates the genre of music.
Now that we have better record keeping, as well as the ability to record, copy and disseminate music, I think people will become comfortable including old music that has known authors. After all, as stated earlier, there is music of known authors written a couple of hundred years ago that has been handed down through generations. Being anonymous is not necessary for the music to be traditional... it is the "tradere" or delivering from older to younger people within a culture that is the important aspect of the definition.
I'm reminded of "Fiddler On The Roof" and the song "Tradition!".... traditions may last many centuries and the name of the author preserved for thousands of years, as in some religious traditions.
Another discussion of this topic was recently started in the following thread on who is a traditional musician. (Will, you might be interested that it was Les Benedict, of the Myrna Loy, who asked in this thread, Who Is A Traditional Musician?) http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=51330
So, from my point of view, having the style and tunes passed down through generations makes it traditional.
We accept the word 'tradtional', in the context of this forum, to denote a particular genre of music, the definition of which is to some extent independent of any definition of that word which we might find in a dictionary. Bearing this in mind, could a 'traditional' tune not be defined simply as one which comes from or fits into this genre? Certain musicians may consider a tune by Paddy Fahy or Ed Reavy traditional, since they are composed in a style and form which is compatible with older tunes in the tradition, whilst they might consider a much older tune by O'Carolan non-traditional.
A story goes that at a certain old British university a notice once appeared beside a college lawn saying that as from that date it would be the tradition that only Fellows of the College would be permitted to walk on the lawn.
I'd agree with David that it's the way the music is interpreted (the feel, ornamentation, lift, etc) which determines whether it is traditional or not. This also accounts for the fact that it's primarily an aural experience handed down from one generation to the next and why "listening" is so important if one is to eventually become a good traditional musician. As well as the ones mentioned by David other living traditional composers include Flute players Vincent Broderick and John Brady, pianist and fiddler Charlie Lennon and his nephew, Maurice many of whose compositions were recorded by the group, Stockton's Wing. I'm sure there are also other composers of good traditional music which proves that time is not a factor in assessing what is or is not traditional.
In my earlier post, I didn't mean to imply that trad tunes were only those whose composers were unknown. Just that the most common place I come across the word "traditional" is associated with tunes, when the composer isn't known. It's a handy shorthand for "composer unknown." Beyond that, I don't really worry too much about how to discern whether a tune fits into the tradition or not.
But after reading the posts here, I'd have to agree with Bannerman that many contemporary tunes fit well within the tradition. I'd suggest that good tunes "delivered" among players within a single generation also become a valid part of the tradition. Sure, passage down through the generations will help shape a tune (and likely make it more "traditional"), but nowadays tunes can evolve as much just being passed among many players.
So...I would say that The Floating Crowbar, The Windmill, Up in the Air, and Inion Ni Scannlain (all fairly recent compositions), just as examples, are clearly "traditional" tunes, relying on traditional musical idioms and forms, and commonly played in traditional ways. I also think, however, that we can distinguish such tunes from the many borrowed tunes brought to the tradition--I'm thinking here of tunes like Mouth of the Tobique, Eleanor Rigby, and the Hassidic tune Itzikel, which pop up on recordings by ITM artists stretching their wings. I enjoy playing Pachabel's Frolics, but tweaking the canon like that does not make it a traditional tune, and no matter how many trad ornaments and bowings you toss in, you can still hear its "classicalness" in the phrasings and underlying chord progression. That doesn't make it a bad tune, or even off limits at a session, just not strictly traditional.
our modern western world copyright understanding and the special culture of a "traditional" culture (in this case ITM) is colliding sometimes and leads to several misunderstandings.
Our understanding of copyright is based on the strong belief that if there is a piece of work (and worth), there must be a certain creator. But we all know more or less, that the roots of ITM (as well as other ethnic, local or "older" cultures) base on some kind of public domain understanding. The composers of the most tunes are not unknown because they have been forgotten, but because to nobody, not even to themselves it was that important to be "known" as the composer of this tune ......
But the ruling understanding of standard copyright is ruling strong, not to say as a dictator
The basic ITM material is public domain material (and we all use it that way - TheSession is based on that idea, for example, but has to manage not to collide with the ruling copyright understanding of our days) ... you can see that conflict as well in the software industry, where the standard copyright idea made Bill Gates a rich man while the Open Source movement tries to find ways to brake monopols and open ways to create better and cheaper software by collaboration...
But as in the 19th century the idea came up that there is a certain inventor, creator who "owns" the right of the first idea, all systems of paying artists, inventors and all creators of ideas and other not materialised basics of products and paying them by a license percentage per sold unit - the composers and arranging/recording artists of ITM who try to make a living as musicians had as well as others too to name themselves as copyright-"owners"
In Germany we have the powerful GEMA (like ASCAP in the States). Even a small public session has to pay about 20 Euros to the GEMA per Event. For a public gig with admission the GEMA takes a lot more (it starts at about 60 Euros for a small event with about 50 to 100 people in the audience). The money goes to musicians, composers, producers who have registered copyrights at the GEMA (so you can imagine, there goes no money to a "ITM public domain trust" ....you have to pay less for using "traditional" material, but this less goes as well to the established copyright owners). No wonder even unknown amateur bands name in their playlists a couple of self-composed and a lot more of "self-arranged" tunes and songs within the majority of "traditionals" on the list, because this makes GEMA fees a bit cheaper.....while our not always good payed ITM "stars" take advantage to create copyright entries to get money from the well ....
.... there was mentioned tradition comes from the latin tradere.... the english word "trading" has the same root. and trading means to change goods which is different from selling and buying them. the ruling copyright understanding to my opinion is perverting and destroying "traditional" systems. but the wheel can
All of the above postings are correct of couse. I especially like crannog's above.
But leaving copywrite law aside, all "traditional" really means is a "style". You've all read "he composes in the traditional idiom" on someone's sleve notes. It's nothing more than a definition of style
one more: the last one was not only answering Michael but Will as well ( I hope I made my point clear enough - all this stuff goes a bit beyond my active english skills ...... so if something sounds strange to aggressive to you, please don
Actually, this was more a case of "throw a thought out there and see what happens" then actually having any specific question... What started it was the discussion with the letter mentioning John Harling's tune not being "traditional" because the man's still alive.
Personally, as of right now, anyway, I think that there *are* things that make up an Irish traditional style, certainly in terms of playing, and also in terms of the composing of the tunes as well. I'm just not sure that there's any way to easily define or locate those things. I'd bet we've all had the experience of being a little startled or taken aback by a tune that "doesn't quite sound Irish" (at least on first hearing), but have no real way to put a finger on what it is that doesn't sound quite "right" about it.
Certainly there have been tunes I've heard when I've said, that's got to be Scottish, or that's got to be Cape Breton, etc., not Irish, and have usually turned out to be correct. But I'm not at all sure that I can say what it was about the tune that didn't sound Irish. Certainly, many a tune from Scottish or Shetland or whatever roots can be played in an Irish traditional manner, but often the tune still gives it's roots away to me, and I can't figure out how.
I also agree that a tune doesn't necessarily need to be passed down by generations to be traditional music -- I love Paddy Fahey tunes, for instance, and find most of them to be quite traditional in form and substance.
By the way, I think Glauber was just being facetious when he started in on copyright and such. But I like your last thought there, Crannog....
The point I was making is that the "form" is what develops and is passed down through generations within a group of people, and that IS what creates tradition. Sure, a new composition can be made within that tradition, music can be passed around within a culture and group of people following the tradition, but it still has to begin with the form that is created by time, development, and the preservation of handing on the form of that tradition, even though new music is added.
If a tune is played in a forest (by a tree presumably or a deaf fiddler) and is not heard it cannot be traditional. It has to be played in sessions/small concerts over and over to be traditional. Likewise an obscure tune cannot become traditional by being put on CD by folk superstar, alive or dead, unless becomes session standard overnight. Otherwise the keys would go all over the place.The style will be put on by the context of the trad session. If it gets played in Bluegrass sessions it won't be Irish trad, it'll be Bluegrass trad. Also if I learn the tune from my ancestors it won't be trad unless it gets back into circulation or it was a tradtionally played tune in past and has got a pedigree.
It can be expressed in the formula- X*Y=N+1
where X is the number of times tune played in ITM sessions, Y is the number of times tune listened to by ITM literate listeners and N is the TRAD quoitent (47 multiplied by the number of people living in Sligo and Donegal at any one time)
Who needs poetry like simmering pots of soup when science has the key!
right Zina, you just threw in a bunch of question marks. But the way I understood it was because I, as well, had the young miss Harling quote in mind. And I think, she understood "trad." in the copyright way, because she insisted, that the composer is living and so this tune is not "trad." in this plain of meaning.
I made my posts to make clear that there are different plains of meaning concerning "trad." and if we discuss that we better not mix them up because we might get messed up in some babylonic confusion.
right, there is some trad. style - Irish Trad as well as trad. bluegrass or traditional blues&jazz or le chanson traditionel en france. these trad music styles live on because a group of people cotnributes to them and keeps a tradition alive ... and it is clear, that playing this kind of music not to an audience and/or to co-contributors, but to flowers and trees won
Ah! Time to pick up the dictionary! Let's see what American Heritage has to say about this.
tra*di*tion*al
Adjective: Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition. Conforming to established practice or standards.
Well, at least we know the composers death isn't a prerequisite to make a tune 'traditional'. I'll bet there are many composers out there who sleep better because of that! But there is a problem.
If we are unable define 'traditional irish music', then what hope do we have of 'conforming to established practice or standards'. Surely, you'd have to have some guidelines!
Well, I already commented on what Webster's says about tradition in my first post, so maybe this is the time to say although it's fun to kick around these definitions, it's a bit like asking what is folk? or, as in my art school days, what is art? Time for some music...
we're here to pass the music on.
just substitute "tune" for "song" and "played": for "sung" ...
PASS THE MUSIC ON
(Si Kahn & Tom Chapin)
I did not learn this music
At my grandma's knee,
But from some old musicians
I never got to see.
I know them by their records,
Their voices and their songs
And I'm blessed to be with you tonight
To pass the music on.
(Chorus)
For the good times and the high times,
Through the suffering and pain;
It's the song of generations singing in my veins.
I still hear that old-time music
Of good friends now long gone.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
You know I'm not traditional
And I've never claimed to be.
But I come from a tradition
That others made for me.
They're still alive inside my heart
Although they're now long gone,
I like to think they trusted me
To pass the music on.
Chorus
And most of the songs I've got tonight
I must admit I wrote,
Others I've learned heart to heart
Instead of note by note.
And now as I grow older
And New Folk come along
I'll help you out the best I can
To pass the music on.
Chorus
I've sung these songs with some old friends
I never will forget.
And I've sung 'em with an audience
Of folks I've hardly met.
So here we are together
To celebrate the song,
We'll sing and play our part tonight
To pass the music on.
Chorus
For the good times and the high times,
Through the suffering and pain;
It's the song of generations singing in my veins.
I still hear that old-time music
Of good friends now long gone.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
We are here tonight to pass the music on.
Regarding Timjellies' comment, "It has to be played in sessions/small concerts over and over to be traditional.": Suppose one traditional musician plays a set of tunes to another musician (who is experienced and accomplished in ITM and has an extensive repertoire), and in among traditional tunes in the set, (s)he plays one of his/her own compositions, this being the first time it has been played to anyone else. The listener's reaction might be, "Is that you own tune?", or "Who wrote that tune?" - certain tunes sound distinctly modern, even though they may be accepted as traditional. But if his/her reaction were, "That's a lovely tune. Where did you get it?", implying that (s)he is unaware that is a recent composition. And supposing the same reaction is got when the tune is played to a dozen other musicians, of a similar degree of familiarity with ITM. Can the tune then be regarded as traditional?
Thank you Alice for this nice song ... do you have abc for the melody or can you name a recording?
Davids post brings up the dissident question in my mind: why is it important to regard or not to regard a tune as traditional? there are always some people who leave the straight way of Irish Traditional Music. There are always some people who come back from their sideways and bring what they found on their way ..... soon it goes on with the stream or might be left back along the way. thats all - no more no less.
ITM might not be an obviously big cultural stream, but it is a strong and steady one. It does not need our Tradition Watch that much. it is able to keep itself alive (with a bit guidance of Comhaltas Ceolt
All of the above and maybe more?
I like that.
I kind of sums up both the fun and the futility of trying to define this stuff.
But.
There are points of logic missing in the "is it trad or not?"
Some people say it must be passed down. But passed down how? Aurally? As a sheet of music? On a CD? All these are passed down, and the distinctions are only of degree.
The other bone of contention is if you can define who wrote it.
This is a complete misnomer because it is pure luck whether a composers name is attached to a bit of music. It depends on many things. In trad scottish music, it has been traditional for 300 years or so to name the composer. Does this make scottish music less trad that Irish? I know some of you will argue that point but you'd be wrong.
More recently, the arrogance of the composer has more to do with it. Wanting imortality ect. (Maybe arrogance is too strong a word. It could be that you just want your PRS money which is fine)
Crannog, I don't own a recording of the song, but I think it is on a John McCutcheon/Tom Chapin cd called "Doing Our Job".
In questions like this (including what is art?) I view from the bigger picture of anthropology and sociology. We know that groups of people form culture, something that humans naturally do, and tradition in every culture is that which becomes a standard that is developed and passed on over time. That doesn't mean that it is fixed and unchanging, it just means it has continuity. New aspects evolve within the culture (like people playing sessions in pubs instead of house ceilis) but there is continuity to the activity by following characteristics in the music that have been developed over time. I think I've been clear in saying that I don't believe every tune has to be learned directly from your ancestors! Look at it as a cultural phenomenon (which is what all music is, a part of the people's culture). This genre of music developed within a particular culture and through immigration and communication has now spread around the world and is carried on by people who were are not native to Ireland. Zina's original question is WHEN does a tune get the label traditional. ...hmmmmmm
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional? Not just because we say it is!
This is important: it is not traditional because we say it is, but because the community "says it is", by embracing it. We're only a small (though important) part of the community.
A sideline discussion to all of this is, how "far" can you go with an arrangement of a traditional tune before it stops being traditional? I'm thinking of some of the Afro-celtic sounds that seem to be so popular now, as well as some of the huge rock influences (e.g., Stockton's Wing) of past years.
I heard a band in Galway a few years ago -- they were in most ways what I'd call very traditional in sound, but the guitarist was using jazzy chord extensions that really gave the music a different sound. I can't say I liked it; it seemed to me to not be a very organic fusion but rather was forced. But that's just my aesthetic. I also recall hearing one of the more recent Chieftains recordings, in which slide guitarist Ry Cooder put one of the coolest backups imaginable behind a slow, modal reel, done in a real breathy style (with a fair amount of non-traditional-sounding echo effect) by Matt Molloy. Very cool, yet easily as "out there" as that Galway band's work.
Any thoughts?
Hi my name's Sue and although I've been really into this wonderful website for a couple of years, this is only my first post!
I've just loved reading everyone's diverse and exciting ideas here.
It's like you're already old friends even though you don't know me.
When is a tune traditional? It's a conversation piece that musicians will no doubt debate for EVER. My feeling is, that after a lifetime of listening and more recently playing, that the more you try to nail it down, the more it wriggles and gets away from you. For me, it's the HOW IT SOUNDs more than anything else, whether the composer's alive, known, dead or anyhting else.It is not definable, it's a concept, a feeling that goes along with all types of trad music.
I think you're right, Sue. I think the term "traditional" is a useful beginning point for differentiating the music from other types, but like all terms, the more more you know, the broader and fuzzier the definition becomes. "Define," by definition, means to make finite, and it's difficult to define a term when the process of learning its intricacies tends to broaden, rather than narrow, in scope.
WHEN is a tune traditional?
WHEN is a tune traditional?
Is it only "trad." when no one remembers who wrote it? Does the composer have to be dead for it to be trad? ("Here, Mr. Fahy, that's not a traditional tune, you're still alive!") What are things that make a tune "traditional"? What things make a tune not traditional? If you know traditional when you hear it and not-traditional the same, doesn't that mean it's only your tradition and not necessarily The Tradition as a whole? Hmmm....
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
It becomes traditional when you can record it without paying royalties.
Alternatively: it becomes traditional when you can copyright your own version of it and start charging royalties.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by glauber
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
For Classical music, I believe the date when one is allowed to reprint original copies of a manuscript is 75 years. (I think...) Perhaps the same idea goes here...?
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Something like that, in the USA, at least. But it's more complicated. I'm sure it's available on the Web somewhere. But i was being a little bit facetious with Zina.
I don't know when a tune becomes traditional. I think when it's a traditional tune, it's traditional from the moment it's created, but the decision on whether it belongs in that tradition (or another) has to be made by the community, not by any single person.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by glauber
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
I like to think that "traditional" is just short hand for "composer unknown," and not really a statement about whether a tune meets certain "traditional" criteria. The influx of show tunes into the Irish tradition during the late 1800s and early 1900s brought many "non-traditional" tunes into the general repertoire, and some of these are listed in printed collections as "traditional" simply because their origin was lost.
Maybe a tune fits in the tradition when it's accepted and played by traditional musicians....(who are people playing traditional instruments with traditional techniques, and a well-founded sense of the tradition's historic range and depth). Is there a way to talk about this without relying on tautologies?
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Defining what is meant by 'traditional' music can be virtually impossible. To say it is music of unknown provenance would be to rule out half the tunes we play plus of course the entire canon contributed by 'proper' composers like O'Carolan and O'Riada.
Luckily, it can be easy to define if we choose to accept Ciaran Carson's statement that "since traditional musicians call the music traditional music, we might as well call it that too". (Pocket Guide to Irish Traditional Music)
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Ottery
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
I think (using the term loosely, of course) that a tune is traditional when it is commonly played by *traditional* musicians. The Tradition is almost a living entity, or perhaps like a soup kettle gently cooking away--tunes get dropped in, float around, sink out of sight, get discarded or forgotten, blend in, change...and there is no definable moment when a tune becomes traditional. Each person has an idea of what it means, just as each person has an interpretation that is uniquely their own of a tune. This is a subject upon which I love to muse, and will hereby spare all of you...
Cassie
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by woman of the house
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Traditional, coming from the root origin "tradere", or deliver, implies in its definition that something is being handed down from generation to generation. The music, customs, or beliefs that are traditional have to go through the process of being taught from one generation to the next within a culture in order to be "delivered" (usually orally). There is music that can be newly composed in the STYLE of traditional tunes, but in general "traditional" implies that the music is old enough to have gone through the process of being preserved by multiple generations and handed down from older to younger players, conforming to a cultural style that creates the genre of music.
Now that we have better record keeping, as well as the ability to record, copy and disseminate music, I think people will become comfortable including old music that has known authors. After all, as stated earlier, there is music of known authors written a couple of hundred years ago that has been handed down through generations. Being anonymous is not necessary for the music to be traditional... it is the "tradere" or delivering from older to younger people within a culture that is the important aspect of the definition.
I'm reminded of "Fiddler On The Roof" and the song "Tradition!".... traditions may last many centuries and the name of the author preserved for thousands of years, as in some religious traditions.
Another discussion of this topic was recently started in the following thread on who is a traditional musician. (Will, you might be interested that it was Les Benedict, of the Myrna Loy, who asked in this thread, Who Is A Traditional Musician?)
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=51330
So, from my point of view, having the style and tunes passed down through generations makes it traditional.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
We accept the word 'tradtional', in the context of this forum, to denote a particular genre of music, the definition of which is to some extent independent of any definition of that word which we might find in a dictionary. Bearing this in mind, could a 'traditional' tune not be defined simply as one which comes from or fits into this genre? Certain musicians may consider a tune by Paddy Fahy or Ed Reavy traditional, since they are composed in a style and form which is compatible with older tunes in the tradition, whilst they might consider a much older tune by O'Carolan non-traditional.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
A story goes that at a certain old British university a notice once appeared beside a college lawn saying that as from that date it would be the tradition that only Fellows of the College would be permitted to walk on the lawn.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
I'd agree with David that it's the way the music is interpreted (the feel, ornamentation, lift, etc) which determines whether it is traditional or not. This also accounts for the fact that it's primarily an aural experience handed down from one generation to the next and why "listening" is so important if one is to eventually become a good traditional musician. As well as the ones mentioned by David other living traditional composers include Flute players Vincent Broderick and John Brady, pianist and fiddler Charlie Lennon and his nephew, Maurice many of whose compositions were recorded by the group, Stockton's Wing. I'm sure there are also other composers of good traditional music which proves that time is not a factor in assessing what is or is not traditional.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Bannerman
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
In my earlier post, I didn't mean to imply that trad tunes were only those whose composers were unknown. Just that the most common place I come across the word "traditional" is associated with tunes, when the composer isn't known. It's a handy shorthand for "composer unknown." Beyond that, I don't really worry too much about how to discern whether a tune fits into the tradition or not.
But after reading the posts here, I'd have to agree with Bannerman that many contemporary tunes fit well within the tradition. I'd suggest that good tunes "delivered" among players within a single generation also become a valid part of the tradition. Sure, passage down through the generations will help shape a tune (and likely make it more "traditional"), but nowadays tunes can evolve as much just being passed among many players.
So...I would say that The Floating Crowbar, The Windmill, Up in the Air, and Inion Ni Scannlain (all fairly recent compositions), just as examples, are clearly "traditional" tunes, relying on traditional musical idioms and forms, and commonly played in traditional ways. I also think, however, that we can distinguish such tunes from the many borrowed tunes brought to the tradition--I'm thinking here of tunes like Mouth of the Tobique, Eleanor Rigby, and the Hassidic tune Itzikel, which pop up on recordings by ITM artists stretching their wings. I enjoy playing Pachabel's Frolics, but tweaking the canon like that does not make it a traditional tune, and no matter how many trad ornaments and bowings you toss in, you can still hear its "classicalness" in the phrasings and underlying chord progression. That doesn't make it a bad tune, or even off limits at a session, just not strictly traditional.
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
our modern western world copyright understanding and the special culture of a "traditional" culture (in this case ITM) is colliding sometimes and leads to several misunderstandings.
Our understanding of copyright is based on the strong belief that if there is a piece of work (and worth), there must be a certain creator. But we all know more or less, that the roots of ITM (as well as other ethnic, local or "older" cultures) base on some kind of public domain understanding. The composers of the most tunes are not unknown because they have been forgotten, but because to nobody, not even to themselves it was that important to be "known" as the composer of this tune ......
But the ruling understanding of standard copyright is ruling strong, not to say as a dictator
The basic ITM material is public domain material (and we all use it that way - TheSession is based on that idea, for example, but has to manage not to collide with the ruling copyright understanding of our days) ... you can see that conflict as well in the software industry, where the standard copyright idea made Bill Gates a rich man while the Open Source movement tries to find ways to brake monopols and open ways to create better and cheaper software by collaboration...
But as in the 19th century the idea came up that there is a certain inventor, creator who "owns" the right of the first idea, all systems of paying artists, inventors and all creators of ideas and other not materialised basics of products and paying them by a license percentage per sold unit - the composers and arranging/recording artists of ITM who try to make a living as musicians had as well as others too to name themselves as copyright-"owners"
In Germany we have the powerful GEMA (like ASCAP in the States). Even a small public session has to pay about 20 Euros to the GEMA per Event. For a public gig with admission the GEMA takes a lot more (it starts at about 60 Euros for a small event with about 50 to 100 people in the audience). The money goes to musicians, composers, producers who have registered copyrights at the GEMA (so you can imagine, there goes no money to a "ITM public domain trust" ....you have to pay less for using "traditional" material, but this less goes as well to the established copyright owners). No wonder even unknown amateur bands name in their playlists a couple of self-composed and a lot more of "self-arranged" tunes and songs within the majority of "traditionals" on the list, because this makes GEMA fees a bit cheaper.....while our not always good payed ITM "stars" take advantage to create copyright entries to get money from the well ....
.... there was mentioned tradition comes from the latin tradere.... the english word "trading" has the same root. and trading means to change goods which is different from selling and buying them. the ruling copyright understanding to my opinion is perverting and destroying "traditional" systems. but the wheel can
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
All of the above postings are correct of couse. I especially like crannog's above.
But leaving copywrite law aside, all "traditional" really means is a "style". You've all read "he composes in the traditional idiom" on someone's sleve notes. It's nothing more than a definition of style
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Go on then Michael, define the style then...
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by Ottery
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Michael, this is one more point causing misunderstanding: yes, you
# Posted on October 8th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
one more: the last one was not only answering Michael but Will as well ( I hope I made my point clear enough - all this stuff goes a bit beyond my active english skills ...... so if something sounds strange to aggressive to you, please don
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Actually, this was more a case of "throw a thought out there and see what happens" then actually having any specific question...
What started it was the discussion with the letter mentioning John Harling's tune not being "traditional" because the man's still alive.
Personally, as of right now, anyway, I think that there *are* things that make up an Irish traditional style, certainly in terms of playing, and also in terms of the composing of the tunes as well. I'm just not sure that there's any way to easily define or locate those things. I'd bet we've all had the experience of being a little startled or taken aback by a tune that "doesn't quite sound Irish" (at least on first hearing), but have no real way to put a finger on what it is that doesn't sound quite "right" about it.
Certainly there have been tunes I've heard when I've said, that's got to be Scottish, or that's got to be Cape Breton, etc., not Irish, and have usually turned out to be correct. But I'm not at all sure that I can say what it was about the tune that didn't sound Irish. Certainly, many a tune from Scottish or Shetland or whatever roots can be played in an Irish traditional manner, but often the tune still gives it's roots away to me, and I can't figure out how.
I also agree that a tune doesn't necessarily need to be passed down by generations to be traditional music -- I love Paddy Fahey tunes, for instance, and find most of them to be quite traditional in form and substance.
By the way, I think Glauber was just being facetious when he started in on copyright and such. But I like your last thought there, Crannog....
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
The point I was making is that the "form" is what develops and is passed down through generations within a group of people, and that IS what creates tradition. Sure, a new composition can be made within that tradition, music can be passed around within a culture and group of people following the tradition, but it still has to begin with the form that is created by time, development, and the preservation of handing on the form of that tradition, even though new music is added.
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
If a tune is played in a forest (by a tree presumably or a deaf fiddler) and is not heard it cannot be traditional. It has to be played in sessions/small concerts over and over to be traditional. Likewise an obscure tune cannot become traditional by being put on CD by folk superstar, alive or dead, unless becomes session standard overnight. Otherwise the keys would go all over the place.The style will be put on by the context of the trad session. If it gets played in Bluegrass sessions it won't be Irish trad, it'll be Bluegrass trad. Also if I learn the tune from my ancestors it won't be trad unless it gets back into circulation or it was a tradtionally played tune in past and has got a pedigree.
It can be expressed in the formula- X*Y=N+1
where X is the number of times tune played in ITM sessions, Y is the number of times tune listened to by ITM literate listeners and N is the TRAD quoitent (47 multiplied by the number of people living in Sligo and Donegal at any one time)
Who needs poetry like simmering pots of soup when science has the key!
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by timjellies
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
right Zina, you just threw in a bunch of question marks. But the way I understood it was because I, as well, had the young miss Harling quote in mind. And I think, she understood "trad." in the copyright way, because she insisted, that the composer is living and so this tune is not "trad." in this plain of meaning.
I made my posts to make clear that there are different plains of meaning concerning "trad." and if we discuss that we better not mix them up because we might get messed up in some babylonic confusion.
right, there is some trad. style - Irish Trad as well as trad. bluegrass or traditional blues&jazz or le chanson traditionel en france. these trad music styles live on because a group of people cotnributes to them and keeps a tradition alive ... and it is clear, that playing this kind of music not to an audience and/or to co-contributors, but to flowers and trees won
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Ah! Time to pick up the dictionary! Let's see what American Heritage has to say about this.
tra*di*tion*al
Adjective: Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition. Conforming to established practice or standards.
Well, at least we know the composers death isn't a prerequisite to make a tune 'traditional'. I'll bet there are many composers out there who sleep better because of that! But there is a problem.
If we are unable define 'traditional irish music', then what hope do we have of 'conforming to established practice or standards'. Surely, you'd have to have some guidelines!
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Well, I already commented on what Webster's says about tradition in my first post, so maybe this is the time to say although it's fun to kick around these definitions, it's a bit like asking what is folk? or, as in my art school days, what is art? Time for some music...
we're here to pass the music on.
just substitute "tune" for "song" and "played": for "sung" ...
PASS THE MUSIC ON
(Si Kahn & Tom Chapin)
I did not learn this music
At my grandma's knee,
But from some old musicians
I never got to see.
I know them by their records,
Their voices and their songs
And I'm blessed to be with you tonight
To pass the music on.
(Chorus)
For the good times and the high times,
Through the suffering and pain;
It's the song of generations singing in my veins.
I still hear that old-time music
Of good friends now long gone.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
You know I'm not traditional
And I've never claimed to be.
But I come from a tradition
That others made for me.
They're still alive inside my heart
Although they're now long gone,
I like to think they trusted me
To pass the music on.
Chorus
And most of the songs I've got tonight
I must admit I wrote,
Others I've learned heart to heart
Instead of note by note.
And now as I grow older
And New Folk come along
I'll help you out the best I can
To pass the music on.
Chorus
I've sung these songs with some old friends
I never will forget.
And I've sung 'em with an audience
Of folks I've hardly met.
So here we are together
To celebrate the song,
We'll sing and play our part tonight
To pass the music on.
Chorus
For the good times and the high times,
Through the suffering and pain;
It's the song of generations singing in my veins.
I still hear that old-time music
Of good friends now long gone.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
I am here tonight to pass the music on.
We are here tonight to pass the music on.
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Regarding Timjellies' comment, "It has to be played in sessions/small concerts over and over to be traditional.": Suppose one traditional musician plays a set of tunes to another musician (who is experienced and accomplished in ITM and has an extensive repertoire), and in among traditional tunes in the set, (s)he plays one of his/her own compositions, this being the first time it has been played to anyone else. The listener's reaction might be, "Is that you own tune?", or "Who wrote that tune?" - certain tunes sound distinctly modern, even though they may be accepted as traditional. But if his/her reaction were, "That's a lovely tune. Where did you get it?", implying that (s)he is unaware that is a recent composition. And supposing the same reaction is got when the tune is played to a dozen other musicians, of a similar degree of familiarity with ITM. Can the tune then be regarded as traditional?
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Thank you Alice for this nice song ... do you have abc for the melody or can you name a recording?
Davids post brings up the dissident question in my mind: why is it important to regard or not to regard a tune as traditional? there are always some people who leave the straight way of Irish Traditional Music. There are always some people who come back from their sideways and bring what they found on their way ..... soon it goes on with the stream or might be left back along the way. thats all - no more no less.
ITM might not be an obviously big cultural stream, but it is a strong and steady one. It does not need our Tradition Watch that much. it is able to keep itself alive (with a bit guidance of Comhaltas Ceolt
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
All of the above and maybe more?
I like that.
I kind of sums up both the fun and the futility of trying to define this stuff.
But.
There are points of logic missing in the "is it trad or not?"
Some people say it must be passed down. But passed down how? Aurally? As a sheet of music? On a CD? All these are passed down, and the distinctions are only of degree.
The other bone of contention is if you can define who wrote it.
This is a complete misnomer because it is pure luck whether a composers name is attached to a bit of music. It depends on many things. In trad scottish music, it has been traditional for 300 years or so to name the composer. Does this make scottish music less trad that Irish? I know some of you will argue that point but you'd be wrong.
More recently, the arrogance of the composer has more to do with it. Wanting imortality ect. (Maybe arrogance is too strong a word. It could be that you just want your PRS money which is fine)
# Posted on October 9th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Crannog, I don't own a recording of the song, but I think it is on a John McCutcheon/Tom Chapin cd called "Doing Our Job".
In questions like this (including what is art?) I view from the bigger picture of anthropology and sociology. We know that groups of people form culture, something that humans naturally do, and tradition in every culture is that which becomes a standard that is developed and passed on over time. That doesn't mean that it is fixed and unchanging, it just means it has continuity. New aspects evolve within the culture (like people playing sessions in pubs instead of house ceilis) but there is continuity to the activity by following characteristics in the music that have been developed over time. I think I've been clear in saying that I don't believe every tune has to be learned directly from your ancestors! Look at it as a cultural phenomenon (which is what all music is, a part of the people's culture). This genre of music developed within a particular culture and through immigration and communication has now spread around the world and is carried on by people who were are not native to Ireland. Zina's original question is WHEN does a tune get the label traditional. ...hmmmmmm
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
I was very happy to see my big brother's definition offered above [Ciaran Carson] and I would like ot offer a different slant altogether.
I was brought up speaking Irish at home and my father referred to the music as 'ceol t
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by breandan
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Breandan, I like that. It's traditional if we say it is.
Brilliant
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Brasndan, yes, that's what i was trying to say above: the community decides, by embracing the tunes and thus making them traditional.
I love your brother's book Last Night's Fun.
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by glauber
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
good enough for me!
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
after reading aliceflynns latest comment twice it is good enough for me as well. ;o)
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by crannog
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Blimey!
this has to be the most agreed upon posting in this entire site
Congratulations everone
# Posted on October 10th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
And the "traditional if we say it is" definition
holds true for The Irish Traditional Music Archive, too!!
Hurrah!!
(link to their definition)
http://www.itma.ie/home/itmae1.htm#two
# Posted on October 11th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
... and on the same site, the online leaflet
http://www.itma.ie/home/leaf1a.htm
# Posted on October 11th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional? Not just because we say it is!
This is important: it is not traditional because we say it is, but because the community "says it is", by embracing it. We're only a small (though important) part of the community.
# Posted on October 12th 2002 by glauber
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
right you are, the community says it is, not an exclusive group. It is a tradition, not a cult.
# Posted on October 13th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Looks loads more like a cult to me
# Posted on October 13th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
A sideline discussion to all of this is, how "far" can you go with an arrangement of a traditional tune before it stops being traditional? I'm thinking of some of the Afro-celtic sounds that seem to be so popular now, as well as some of the huge rock influences (e.g., Stockton's Wing) of past years.
I heard a band in Galway a few years ago -- they were in most ways what I'd call very traditional in sound, but the guitarist was using jazzy chord extensions that really gave the music a different sound. I can't say I liked it; it seemed to me to not be a very organic fusion but rather was forced. But that's just my aesthetic. I also recall hearing one of the more recent Chieftains recordings, in which slide guitarist Ry Cooder put one of the coolest backups imaginable behind a slow, modal reel, done in a real breathy style (with a fair amount of non-traditional-sounding echo effect) by Matt Molloy. Very cool, yet easily as "out there" as that Galway band's work.
Any thoughts?
# Posted on October 14th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
No matter how you arrange it, the tune will still be trad.
Try carrying on your thread in the "arrangements" posting at the top of the list
# Posted on October 14th 2002 by ...
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Hi my name's Sue and although I've been really into this wonderful website for a couple of years, this is only my first post!
I've just loved reading everyone's diverse and exciting ideas here.
It's like you're already old friends even though you don't know me.
When is a tune traditional? It's a conversation piece that musicians will no doubt debate for EVER. My feeling is, that after a lifetime of listening and more recently playing, that the more you try to nail it down, the more it wriggles and gets away from you. For me, it's the HOW IT SOUNDs more than anything else, whether the composer's alive, known, dead or anyhting else.It is not definable, it's a concept, a feeling that goes along with all types of trad music.
Any help?
Sue
# Posted on November 2nd 2002 by Fiiddle R
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
I think you're right, Sue. I think the term "traditional" is a useful beginning point for differentiating the music from other types, but like all terms, the more more you know, the broader and fuzzier the definition becomes. "Define," by definition, means to make finite, and it's difficult to define a term when the process of learning its intricacies tends to broaden, rather than narrow, in scope.
# Posted on November 2nd 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: WHEN is a tune traditional?
Susie,
I like that,
trad is just a concept.
good that
# Posted on November 2nd 2002 by ...