I was taught an original set of rules for music. I am, unfortunately, ignorant of what may be some rules elsewhere. Also, for the sake of inquiry, who can list some natural laws for the playing of music? I'm looking forward to original answers.
Or if you play the fiddle, don't use vibrato. A good example of a "rule" that can be broken "in a positive and enriching way" - if you know what you're doing.
Tipperaryharper - I am intrigued by the number of people who turn up on this board who say (as in your bio) that they go to the Riley School of Irish Music - but come here asking questions like yours above. There have been several (or eightal) in the past few months.
What exactly do they teach at Riley School of Irish Music?
I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your question - far from it - but I have a son who is studying Mechanical Engineering, and I wouldn't expect him to ask me how to build a bridge, I'd expect him to be telling me how to do it.
Maybe all these folks (and you) are engaged in "field research"?
A play on the sound of words is a pun.Homonyms.Several and eightal are not homonyms .Inflationary language perhaps? If Four -Fingered Frey reads this he'll tell you that one thing I'm not short of is a sense of humour
dafydd - not suggesting you're short of a sense of humour - far from it. I'd not make a mock sharp rejoinder like that if I thought you wouldn't see the humour in it.
Is every instance of play on the sound of words a pun? I'm not sure.
You're right about several and eightal not being homonyms. How glad I am that I never even implied that was the case. Why - eightal is not even a real word worthy of the name, it's a play on the semi-homonymous relationship between seven and several. I believe that the first time I came across it was in the ramblings of Spike Milligan, possibly in Puckoon.
By the way - you left the full stop off the end of your last post.
Please now reply with something really withering, perhaps something really abusive, which calls my ancestry and my parentage into doubt, (you can also make inflammatory statements about 'all flute/mandolin players', or dog-owners, you know the sort of thing), or even a good old fashioned curse, and then we can escalate this into a huge argument which goes on for ever. . . .
Cecil Sharpe, when first noting down folk-singers, said they sang things wrong, as he had been taught, but he wrote it down anyway.
I would like to know the "original set of rules".
>What exactly do they teach at Riley School of Irish Music?
>I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your >question - far from it - but I have a son who is studying >Mechanical Engineering, and I wouldn't expect him to ask me >how to build a bridge, I'd expect him to be telling me how to do >it.
>Maybe all these folks (and you) are engaged in "field >research"?
>Pray - enlighten me.
Actually your latter question comes close to answering your first one.
There are a number of people who teach at that school that believe very much in the concept that they are first and foremost students themselves. It's not an approach adopted by everyone, just one that a number of them subscribe to and hopefully are passing along to their own students.
They believe (as do I) that the study and research of irish traditional music is as much a lifelong endeavor as the playing of the tunes themselves. You can cease learning if you like after you feel you've reached a certain level of proficiency, but for others that target is always moving and so they keep going. The idea is that (to shamelessly 'borrow' from James Kelly) we're all on the same journey, just at different points along the way, making it possible to be teacher and student at the same time.
Incidentally, an engineering student is the last person I would ask for recommendations on how a bridge should be built. I only say this half-in-jest thinking back to how much beer was sucked down by myself and my friends in what were possibly the most 5 miserable years of my life. At least get a PE for reasons practical and (primarily) litigious
If you are a rhythm musician, there are a few things you should learn.
1) You are not a rhythm musician, you are an 'accompanist'-lest you think for a minute that you perform a vital role.
2) You cannot do anything right without being either practically perfect in every way or inaudible.
3) Every mistake you make is ten times worse than a mistake made by a melody player.
4) If you are a guitar player, than you will right off the bat be expected to know nothing about the music, and to beat your instrument, playing the wrong chords.
5) There are 800 rules of ettiquete, and they are always changing.
Now I understand why young Zazz is so bitter and twisted - he has obviously been brought up in a hierarchical and competitive environment, where every effort is made to suppress the natural joys and pleasures of living. The only good thing is that he enjoys ITM, but it seems that even there the forces of authority conspire to spoil his enjoyment.
Rise above it, young sir !
Let your creative spirit flow !
Ignore these disruptive elements, they are but pebbles in the shoe, mere distractions!
Oh, and practise, kid, practise.
Pluck a taut string, listen to the note produced,then halve the length and pluck it again. The new sound will result from the string vibrating at double the original frequency, and the sound will be the same note but an octave higher. Repeat.
Same thing works with blowing across or striking a length of pipe.
Divide that "Octave" into 12 equal parts and you have all the notes of the western musical scale.
"all the notes of" the permanently slightly out-of-tune "western" equal-temprament "musical scale."
Happily good fiddlers, fluters, and singers will use "just intonation" where intervals are based on simpler relationships than the cruel twelfth root of two.
Sadly, not all instruments can do this.
A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man below says: "Yes. You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field. You are between 40 and 42 degrees N. latitude, and between 58 and 60 degrees W. longitude."
"You must be an engineer" says the balloonist.
"I am" replies the man. "How did you know."
"Well" says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost."
The man below says "You must be a manager."
"I am" replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well", says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you are going. You have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in the exact same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault."
At Riley, we do regard the laws of tradition, at least, I have always been told to and have an understanding of the rules as they have been shown to me. However, it was actually a discussion which I found between Guernsey Pete and some certain people...that got me started on this question. It has led me to wonder if there isn't something I'm missing.
The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
I was taught an original set of rules for music. I am, unfortunately, ignorant of what may be some rules elsewhere. Also, for the sake of inquiry, who can list some natural laws for the playing of music? I'm looking forward to original answers.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Tipperaryharper
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Not wanting to sound dismissive here but show me a musical "rule" and I will give you a form of music that breaks it in a positive an enriching way.
music + disregard for perceived rules = innovation
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by harrywhohaa
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Elaborate, please...
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Farr
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
hmmmm, the "natural laws for the playing of music"
are you inquiring about session etiquette? or so called-musical rules of thumb such as "don't take a breath in the same spot every time"?
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Brendan
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Or if you play the fiddle, don't use vibrato. A good example of a "rule" that can be broken "in a positive and enriching way" - if you know what you're doing.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If you hold a house session but forget to invite any other musicians then you will have to play solo.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
A fiddle is more difficult to play upside down than it is the right way up.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Musicians from Ulster always make their phrases go up at the end.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If you throw your instrument into a pit of molten magma it will become unplayable.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
It is impossible to swallow a guitar, however hard you try to shove it down.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Step dancing isn't as cool if you have both legs tied together.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If you shoot a bodhran player in the head with a shotgun at point blank range then, if he lives, he is unlikely to turn up to your session ever again.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If he dies, his ghost will haunt your session forever and freak everyone out with an incessant clonking sound every time you try to play a tune.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If it was a mistake, play it twice and make them think you did it on purpose.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Padi Fields
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Have you ever tried to repeat a mistake on purpose? It's harder than trying to play the tune right.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Hey PB, Les Dawson made a fortune from that particular skill!
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Hey, we need someone to police these "Unspoken Rules" - any volunteers?:
http://www.thelastbestwest.com/old_west_sheriff_badges.htm
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Where words fail, music speaks
Author: Hans Christian Anderson
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
This is handy for music ruling:
http://www.scribblers.co.uk/acatalog/calligraphy_catalog_Miscellaneous_Nibs_and_Pens_20.html
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by RichardB
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Yes Ptarmigan,but quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by dafydd
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Tipperaryharper - I am intrigued by the number of people who turn up on this board who say (as in your bio) that they go to the Riley School of Irish Music - but come here asking questions like yours above. There have been several (or eightal) in the past few months.
What exactly do they teach at Riley School of Irish Music?
I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your question - far from it - but I have a son who is studying Mechanical Engineering, and I wouldn't expect him to ask me how to build a bridge, I'd expect him to be telling me how to do it.
Maybe all these folks (and you) are engaged in "field research"?
Pray - enlighten me.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Pedantic mode on.Several does not mean seven.It means a number more than two or three but not many.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by dafydd
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
And humour is a thing where you sometimes make a play around the apparent sound of words.
Try it sometime.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
ooh - didn't that sound sharp.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Who were the people who's counting system was, "one, two, ooh lots."
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Can we have bylaws?
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Leftheris
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Tubbs in the League of Gentlemen counts up to twelvty:
http://www.lunacynet.com/league/char_tubbs.html
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by RichardB
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
A play on the sound of words is a pun.Homonyms.Several and eightal are not homonyms .Inflationary language perhaps? If Four -Fingered Frey reads this he'll tell you that one thing I'm not short of is a sense of humour
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by dafydd
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Showie you're a flute player. You always sound sharp.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Always plant your tulips in May
Er, sorry. Wrong forum
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Derdle-derdle-derdle-derdle-derdlerr wrong forum situation
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
That'll make absolutely no sense to anyone who didn't get your e-mail but never mind
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
hahahaha!!!
'waddaboutyee kiddo. What are ye doin' over thuurrrrrrr??
Every time I listen to it again it cracks me up.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
I'm curious, Tipperaryharper, what are your "original set of rules for music"?
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by fidkid
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
dafydd - not suggesting you're short of a sense of humour - far from it. I'd not make a mock sharp rejoinder like that if I thought you wouldn't see the humour in it.
Is every instance of play on the sound of words a pun? I'm not sure.
You're right about several and eightal not being homonyms. How glad I am that I never even implied that was the case. Why - eightal is not even a real word worthy of the name, it's a play on the semi-homonymous relationship between seven and several. I believe that the first time I came across it was in the ramblings of Spike Milligan, possibly in Puckoon.
By the way - you left the full stop off the end of your last post.
Please now reply with something really withering, perhaps something really abusive, which calls my ancestry and my parentage into doubt, (you can also make inflammatory statements about 'all flute/mandolin players', or dog-owners, you know the sort of thing), or even a good old fashioned curse, and then we can escalate this into a huge argument which goes on for ever. . . .
- why should Jack Gilder have all the fun?
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
To quote someone else, from a previous posting ( lest I get accused of plagiarism ( perish the thought ! ) );
Humphrey Lyttleton's Rules of Music;
1) Turn up
2) Do your thing
3) Get the money
4) Go home.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Cecil Sharpe, when first noting down folk-singers, said they sang things wrong, as he had been taught, but he wrote it down anyway.
I would like to know the "original set of rules".
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Never drink lager if you play flute or whistle: risk of spontaneous burps. It's better porter.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by jorge o'lochlainn
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
jorge - the correct version of that is:
never drink lager.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
ah, lager is a fine thing and presents no burping problems to someone playing a bellows blown instrument like pipes or accordion.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Hanley
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
>What exactly do they teach at Riley School of Irish Music?
>I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your >question - far from it - but I have a son who is studying >Mechanical Engineering, and I wouldn't expect him to ask me >how to build a bridge, I'd expect him to be telling me how to do >it.
>Maybe all these folks (and you) are engaged in "field >research"?
>Pray - enlighten me.
Actually your latter question comes close to answering your first one.
There are a number of people who teach at that school that believe very much in the concept that they are first and foremost students themselves. It's not an approach adopted by everyone, just one that a number of them subscribe to and hopefully are passing along to their own students.
They believe (as do I) that the study and research of irish traditional music is as much a lifelong endeavor as the playing of the tunes themselves. You can cease learning if you like after you feel you've reached a certain level of proficiency, but for others that target is always moving and so they keep going. The idea is that (to shamelessly 'borrow' from James Kelly) we're all on the same journey, just at different points along the way, making it possible to be teacher and student at the same time.
Incidentally, an engineering student is the last person I would ask for recommendations on how a bridge should be built. I only say this half-in-jest thinking back to how much beer was sucked down by myself and my friends in what were possibly the most 5 miserable years of my life. At least get a PE for reasons practical and (primarily) litigious
Cheers.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by _Steph_
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
We still would like to hear your rules.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
"Rules?!?? In a knife fight???"
- from 'Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid'
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by brianc
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If you are a rhythm musician, there are a few things you should learn.
1) You are not a rhythm musician, you are an 'accompanist'-lest you think for a minute that you perform a vital role.
2) You cannot do anything right without being either practically perfect in every way or inaudible.
3) Every mistake you make is ten times worse than a mistake made by a melody player.
4) If you are a guitar player, than you will right off the bat be expected to know nothing about the music, and to beat your instrument, playing the wrong chords.
5) There are 800 rules of ettiquete, and they are always changing.
Not that I am bitter.
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Man -- I don't know about where you live, Zazz, but good guitar players are well appreciated around these parts.
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Dow, my lawyer will be contacting you regarding the hernia that has resulted from your smack down funny posts...
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by Brendan
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Now I understand why young Zazz is so bitter and twisted - he has obviously been brought up in a hierarchical and competitive environment, where every effort is made to suppress the natural joys and pleasures of living. The only good thing is that he enjoys ITM, but it seems that even there the forces of authority conspire to spoil his enjoyment.
Rise above it, young sir !
Let your creative spirit flow !
Ignore these disruptive elements, they are but pebbles in the shoe, mere distractions!
Oh, and practise, kid, practise.
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Steph - engineer joke:
Whats 1 + 2?
Mathematician: "1+2=3"
Physicist: "A randomly occurring number between 2.5 and 3.5"
Engineer: "1 =2 ? Hmm. Sounds like its probably about 3 or 4 to me. But with safety lets say nine."
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Pluck a taut string, listen to the note produced,then halve the length and pluck it again. The new sound will result from the string vibrating at double the original frequency, and the sound will be the same note but an octave higher. Repeat.
Same thing works with blowing across or striking a length of pipe.
Divide that "Octave" into 12 equal parts and you have all the notes of the western musical scale.
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
"all the notes of" the permanently slightly out-of-tune "western" equal-temprament "musical scale."
Happily good fiddlers, fluters, and singers will use "just intonation" where intervals are based on simpler relationships than the cruel twelfth root of two.
Sadly, not all instruments can do this.
# Posted on March 17th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Showdad...
One of my favorites:
A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man below says: "Yes. You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field. You are between 40 and 42 degrees N. latitude, and between 58 and 60 degrees W. longitude."
"You must be an engineer" says the balloonist.
"I am" replies the man. "How did you know."
"Well" says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost."
The man below says "You must be a manager."
"I am" replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well", says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you are going. You have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in the exact same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault."
Cheers
# Posted on March 18th 2006 by _Steph_
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
It's called Jazz.... Or so my brother tells me...have fun innoveting
# Posted on March 18th 2006 by Ravyn
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
If you stuff a flute players flute full of napkins, he not only will keep playing, but won't be able to tell the difference.
# Posted on March 18th 2006 by Red Crow
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
Red Crow,
Why settle for the flute, when you can stuff the player with napkins!
Zazz, Hang in there, man, and don't let people tear you down. If you keep pursuing what you love, things will come together in the fullness of time.
# Posted on March 18th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: The Unspoken Rules...Spoken
At Riley, we do regard the laws of tradition, at least, I have always been told to and have an understanding of the rules as they have been shown to me. However, it was actually a discussion which I found between Guernsey Pete and some certain people...that got me started on this question. It has led me to wonder if there isn't something I'm missing.
# Posted on March 26th 2006 by Tipperaryharper