whistling...
Seems like im rolling and rolling, but it turns out very smooth - maybe too smooth - instead of that edgy rythmic rolls I hear so often. Am I not doing the fingering well?
a good roll sounds like three notes, rather than the five they are actually made up from. This is why things like banjo triplets fit in with the music, it's not a proper roll, but it fits. What you hear in a good roll is the percussion of a quick change of note. A quick lift of a finger and a quik tap of a finger.
Maybe you have forgotten about the breathing aspect of the ornamentation.
Sometimes you can incorporate tongueing along with the rolls as a source of added rhythm.
There are different styles of playing rolls - some like them more 'open', some like them 'tight'. But for the tight kind that you are describing, the secret is to make the cut and the tap as short as is humanly possible, so that, practically speaking, they have no time value of their own. They are just articulation or 'punctuation'.
One way to practise rolls is to slow them right down. However, whilst you lengthen the principal note, keep the cut and tap as short as possible - no matter how slowly you play, a cut is a cut and a tap is a tap. The exact timing of the cut and tap is partly a matter of personal taste, but it is proabably best to start with them evenly spaced, and then to learn to put them exactly where you want them.
When you have got your cuts and taps under control, you can speed up bit by bit, until it starts to sound like a roll.
Trip - If I remember rightly, you only discovered rolls a week or two ago, so don't despair if they don't sound right yet. Just keep practising.
Regarding tonguing: Tonguing the beginning of a roll is a good way to add a bit more articulation. Tonguing *within* a roll is a bit more complicated - something I have not mastered (insofar as I have 'mastered' anything) - and is best left to when you are confident with the basic roll.
Also, there are long rolls and short rolls. As a rule, a long roll is used on a 3/8 note (dotted crotchet) and a short roll is used on a 1/4 note (crotchet). The long roll is often integral to the rhythm of jigs and reels, whilst the short roll is more often a true embellishment. The short roll is like the long roll but instead of opening with the principal note, it opens with the cut.
Where 'P' is the principal note, 'c' is the cut and 't' is the tap,
Do you know Brother Steve's tin whistle pages? He has this nice description of rolls which goes something like this: They should sound like if you're saying "Daah-blaah-blaah" - the two "bl" being the cut and the tap - very short and blubbery - with three "aah"s of equal length.
IMHO...As far as your rolls are concerned...they're fine.
I think the problem is you're playing that particular tune too fast to bring out any "ryhmic rolls."
The tune sounds very good, but, at this point, you need to choose wether you want to display rythem or speed. Perhaps with more practice you can do both.
BTW...I think this is a common problem today...in the attempt to play as quickly as possible, rythem, bounce, playfullness, etc. is thrown to the side.
I think that rolls do revolve around the principle notes. For example in a jig ABA becomes ~A3 which is a roll. The roll is played ABAGA the rhythm emphasis is on the A-A and the roll is played around these notes. Both A notes should be heard clearly with the main emphasis on the first A. I practice by playing A A skipping the other middle notes until I have the rhythm right then try inserting the roll in between the first A and last A. Practicing very slowly at first, because if it doesn’t sound right slowly it will just sound sloppy played fast and the rhythm is sacrificed. By the way in the roll ABA part is played ever so marginally slower than the GA
here's an example of that kinda roll-tounging or whatever Joe does that I just can't grasp. Check it out maybe you know what it is....
That triple emphasis on the highest note played.
Sounds to me like that clip is in G (that's normal G fingering on a D whistle that is, but I don't know what whistle is it) and that top decoration is a second octave D cran thing, rather than a roll. All the others a straight forward rolls
There's no tongue in the second octave D cran thing, I'm not sure exactly how Joe does it but I'd do like this:
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXXXXO
XXXXXX
or
OXXXXX
OXXOXX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXXXXO
OXXXXX
It's pretty quick mind
Actually, I'm wrong. It's like this:
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXOXXX
XXXXXX
or
OXXXXX
OXXOXX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXOXXX
OXXXXX
(that was only 'cause I've just tried it rather than guessed)
The same decoration also works on the E
Rolling.... (on the river)
Rolling.... (on the river)
whistling...
Seems like im rolling and rolling, but it turns out very smooth - maybe too smooth - instead of that edgy rythmic rolls I hear so often. Am I not doing the fingering well?
http://www.aqpi44.dsl.pipex.com/trip-/rolls3.mp3
Appreciate the help,
Philip
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by Trip-
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
a good roll sounds like three notes, rather than the five they are actually made up from. This is why things like banjo triplets fit in with the music, it's not a proper roll, but it fits. What you hear in a good roll is the percussion of a quick change of note. A quick lift of a finger and a quik tap of a finger.
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
Maybe you have forgotten about the breathing aspect of the ornamentation.
Sometimes you can incorporate tongueing along with the rolls as a source of added rhythm.
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by blas
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
There are different styles of playing rolls - some like them more 'open', some like them 'tight'. But for the tight kind that you are describing, the secret is to make the cut and the tap as short as is humanly possible, so that, practically speaking, they have no time value of their own. They are just articulation or 'punctuation'.
One way to practise rolls is to slow them right down. However, whilst you lengthen the principal note, keep the cut and tap as short as possible - no matter how slowly you play, a cut is a cut and a tap is a tap. The exact timing of the cut and tap is partly a matter of personal taste, but it is proabably best to start with them evenly spaced, and then to learn to put them exactly where you want them.
When you have got your cuts and taps under control, you can speed up bit by bit, until it starts to sound like a roll.
Trip - If I remember rightly, you only discovered rolls a week or two ago, so don't despair if they don't sound right yet. Just keep practising.
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
I'm very new to tounging, and actually don't know how to use it in the tunes - and don't know how to recognize when it was used in a tune.
I believe I heard of musicians who never use tounging much, as part of a playing style, is this true?
Nevertheless - I wonder if tounging is the most definite answer for all my problems, or is it that I can practice my rolls better...
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by Trip-
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
and that Joe McKenna low whistle drives me mad - sounds almost like a flute or something ;/
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by Trip-
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
Regarding tonguing: Tonguing the beginning of a roll is a good way to add a bit more articulation. Tonguing *within* a roll is a bit more complicated - something I have not mastered (insofar as I have 'mastered' anything) - and is best left to when you are confident with the basic roll.
Also, there are long rolls and short rolls. As a rule, a long roll is used on a 3/8 note (dotted crotchet) and a short roll is used on a 1/4 note (crotchet). The long roll is often integral to the rhythm of jigs and reels, whilst the short roll is more often a true embellishment. The short roll is like the long roll but instead of opening with the principal note, it opens with the cut.
Where 'P' is the principal note, 'c' is the cut and 't' is the tap,
long roll: P-c-P-t-P
short roll: c-P-t-P
e.g. G{A}G{^F}G, {A}G{^F}G
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
.... But, I don't think tongueing is necessarily the answer. Learn to play rolls without tongueing first, then and the tonguing later.
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
spoonz that's very helpful mate - I shall practice asap
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by Trip-
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
Do you know Brother Steve's tin whistle pages? He has this nice description of rolls which goes something like this: They should sound like if you're saying "Daah-blaah-blaah" - the two "bl" being the cut and the tap - very short and blubbery - with three "aah"s of equal length.
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/rolls1.html
# Posted on March 10th 2006 by Irina
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
IMHO...As far as your rolls are concerned...they're fine.
I think the problem is you're playing that particular tune too fast to bring out any "ryhmic rolls."
The tune sounds very good, but, at this point, you need to choose wether you want to display rythem or speed. Perhaps with more practice you can do both.
BTW...I think this is a common problem today...in the attempt to play as quickly as possible, rythem, bounce, playfullness, etc. is thrown to the side.
# Posted on March 11th 2006 by Pete D
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
I think that rolls do revolve around the principle notes. For example in a jig ABA becomes ~A3 which is a roll. The roll is played ABAGA the rhythm emphasis is on the A-A and the roll is played around these notes. Both A notes should be heard clearly with the main emphasis on the first A. I practice by playing A A skipping the other middle notes until I have the rhythm right then try inserting the roll in between the first A and last A. Practicing very slowly at first, because if it doesn’t sound right slowly it will just sound sloppy played fast and the rhythm is sacrificed. By the way in the roll ABA part is played ever so marginally slower than the GA
# Posted on March 11th 2006 by gtag
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
http://www.aqpi44.dsl.pipex.com/trip-/joe.mp3
here's an example of that kinda roll-tounging or whatever Joe does that I just can't grasp. Check it out maybe you know what it is....
That triple emphasis on the highest note played.
# Posted on March 11th 2006 by Trip-
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
It's very nice. I'll try it.
# Posted on March 11th 2006 by Pete D
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
Sounds to me like that clip is in G (that's normal G fingering on a D whistle that is, but I don't know what whistle is it) and that top decoration is a second octave D cran thing, rather than a roll. All the others a straight forward rolls
# Posted on March 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
There's no tongue in the second octave D cran thing, I'm not sure exactly how Joe does it but I'd do like this:
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXXXXO
XXXXXX
or
OXXXXX
OXXOXX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXXXXO
OXXXXX
It's pretty quick mind
# Posted on March 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Rolling.... (on the river)
Actually, I'm wrong. It's like this:
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXOXXX
XXXXXX
or
OXXXXX
OXXOXX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXOXXX
OXXXXX
(that was only 'cause I've just tried it rather than guessed)
The same decoration also works on the E
# Posted on March 13th 2006 by llig leahcim