At last nights session we had 2 boxes 2 concertinas several fiddles, mandolins and a banjo.
One of the boxes and the concertinas tuned to concert pitch and recorded accuarately on a 2 different tuners.
The other box tuned sharp of the rest of us dominating the session. When we told him he was out of tune he told us that he had just had it tuned by a well known tuner and therefore it is in perfect tune.
The session was an absolute mess with the other box and the concertinas clashing.
The older concertina player (aged 60) being a relative beginner was quite upset thinking it was his fault and had to be reassured after the offending box player had left. We often get a number of concertinas and a couple of other box players in this session.
The offending box player who incidentally is an ex Guard, has started coming regularly now and we don't quite know how to deal with this situation short of telling him to f*** off.
Did you try asking him to set to dry single reed? If it's still noticeably sharp and spoils the session then let him play on his own by either not joining in if he starts a set, or stopping when he joins in. If he asks why you're stopping, explain that you're out of tune with him. If he then tells you to tune up, tell him you already have, with an electronic tuner.
This may mean that you don't get to play for long periods for a couple of weeks, and you might have to listen to him solo a few times, but he'll soon get bored of giving a one-man concert. And for you it should be more fun *not* playing under those circumstances than joining in and listening to a cacophany of out-of-tune instruments, right?
You just have to face up to him and point out he's been mis-tuned, and can't fit in until it's corrected. It's not as if it's his fault, the tuner has made the error, you just have to demonstrate this to him. He will have a reasonable complaint, after all, it's just you have to get past his attitude.
Good luck !
I know that boxes with two reeds usually have one at concert pitch and the other slightly above to get the tremolo effect. This results in the net pitch sounding slighty sharp - but maybe not as sharp as you are experiencing.
Concertinas having but a single reed will of course be tuned to concert pitch (if accurately tuned).
Some boxes, like the Castagnari Lilly, have only one reed for the melody notes, so they will sound more like a concertina.
dont beat about the bush by cowardly not playing with him you need to tell him straight out before the box comes out of the case and if he is offended and cheesed off so be it but choose words different to f off mabe he is a little thick and needs convincing more than once that whoever tuned his box has got it wrong
Sorry - I leaned on the post button too soon - didn't mean to sound unhelpful.
Meant to say more:
So what? Does that imply he is big and tough? Is he going to be allowed ruin the session just cos he's big and tough?
From your description there are 8 or 9 or more of you - that's well over half a ton of you if you want to get physical, and a landslide majority if you want to be democratic.
I hope you get it sorted - you probably just need to do as Pete and Laitch and Macthewife suggest.
But he's already told him he was out of tune and it didn't work. Why should it work next time? With people like that you either go elsewhere and play, or you stay in the same room and stop playing, or you tell them to eff off, but that's not very nice.
Is there anyone at the session who will admit to being this box player's friend? Or someone at least on a first name basis with him? If so, why not ring him up to play a few tunes before the next session. Take an electronic tuner along (and be absolutely certain that it's dead on A = 440--some can be re-calibrated, and that can happen inadvertently), and find out just how far off his tuning is. Show him the results on the tuner.
But do it all in private so he won't feel singled out or challenged in front of the group. You might even suggest that (if indeed his box is sharp) he go get the box retuned before the next session, and then act like nothing's changed when he seamlessly fits in.
But don't get your hopes too high--anyone who insists on playing when the group is painfully out of tune is probably more interested in being "right" than in making good music.
@Johnj
You hit it spot on thats the worry.
@Will, there is someone who introduced him to the session who could perhaps have a quiet word with him but he is very assertive so I don't have high hopes.
I for one did stop playing for quite some time last night. Perhaps if everyone else did the same he might get the message. It was absolute bedlem at one stage no enjoyment whatsoever and it ended up with the bar proping me up.
If someone can produce an A440 tuning fork that could be used to check the calibration of the electronic tuners (which can inadvertently stray from their settings) then there should be no further argument.
I have two A440 tuning forks (one for each fiddle case if you're wondering), both different makes and sizes, and they both give out the same A440 frequency, as evidenced by the lack of a beat tone when they are struck together. So I would say I've got a reasonably reliable tuning source.
If anyone is absolutely paranoid about tuning - and I'm of the view that a little bit of "moisture" in tuning never did anyone any harm in sessions - then reference tuning forks used for scientific purposes are available.
I would agree with Dow. I just wouldn't play as long as he insists on playing out of tune. You guys just have to brazen it out. I'd just stop & when he asks why you have stopped, just politely explain that you simply cannot play out of tune!
If you stop playing he's bound to get fed up.
I think it's the only way to go.
It may spoil a session or two, but eventually you will get your session back.
Good Luck.
Dow, are you sure it's not spelt - cockof&nny or Cockovan-y?
Tell him there's a great Eb session up the road is one solution. Seriously though, I've often thought that the Eb thing was based on snobbery an exclusion.
In this case the old dilemma of whether or not to tell the offending player that they need to change their tuning arises - just like Seamus Tansey and Sharon Langston.
My view is that you should grab the bull by the horns and tell him he's out of tune, and to get it fixed. Why have a majority of participants at a session inconvenienced by one boor?
Nothing works like the cold shoulder - sounds harsh but obviously he is not listening and just does not care. I would be mortified if someone said that to me and I would get it fixed asap!!!
We had an offending musician at a session years and years ago who just did not listen when she was asked to tune up over and over and was just always out. She used to say ' oh well - it doesnt matter anyway' and just keep playing! In the end every time she started a tune - the entire session (except me because I didnt have a spine back then) would get up and go to the bar. At the time I didnt realise that by me sitting with her I was almost giving her a reason to keep starting tunes - I was encouraging her. In the end she moved to a different country. phew!
Can no one tune by ear anymore? Just tune to him. Anyone who plays with difficult or fixed pitch instruments should try to tune to them, not expect them to do the impossible. Or is he so out that, say flutes or pipes simply won't go that flat. then I could see it being a problem. Seriously though; you could try adjusting yourself rather than insisting on your machine. A440 is over-rated.
Farr - did you read the original post - how are all the other box players and concertina players supposed to tune to him. Anyhow - forget that....either play in tune - or dont play at all. Why bow down to him if he is the only one who isnt in tune? Forget that.
As a fiddle player I've no problem with tuning to a fixed pitch instrument by ear, more than once in a session perhaps, because the tuning of fixed pitch instruments can and does chqnge with temperature and humidity. The big problem - which is what this discussion is all about - is when two or more fixed pitch instruments in a session have impossibly different base pitches.
Yer right,bb. More than one box or concertina player becomes problematic for dozens of reasons. I guess the real question is: how do we deal with someone so tone deaf? It's an etiquette problem really. But i still wonder why musicians ( fiddle players especially ) refuse to learn to tune by ear. How do you trust your intonation?
Personally - I have OTD (obsessive tuning disorder) I find it very hard to tune by ear because I dont trust myself. So if someone else is out of tune - I assume its me. Therefore for the sake of everyone at the session I tune with an electronic tuner first, but always make sure with my box player fiance that I'm actually in tune. I dont see its a problem to use an electronic tuner if you feel that its a helpful tool. At least I'm not one of those people who just dont care if they are in tune or not and play anyway.
Well - I have had the habit for ten years, you can ask anyone I usually play with - its not even that I'm ever out of tunen is it Dow?? Its just never ever good enough - It has to be soooo spot on or I get really put off. And its just like a reassurance. Anyhow -as long as other people insist on being out of tune, then I think that mine is the least of the session problems
With Boxes & Concertinas, how many of their reeds are actually in perfect tune, really depends on when they were last tuned. Flutes, Pipes & Whistles are invariably slightly out, at some stage of the night, as are all the stringed instruments as they slide in & out of tune as the temp. & humidity vary too!
So thank goodness we have the good old constant 'Bodhrans' to keep us right!
Don't feel bad, Beebs. I've tuned by ear for decades, but now I sometimes use an electronic tuner. In part, it's because my hearing isn't so keen anymore, especially when there's a lot of other noise around (like in a session). So I can just clip the sensor thingie onto my bridge and quietly pluck the strings while watching the readout until each string is to pitch, even if I can't hear what I'm doing over the din around me.
A tuner is also a very handy diplomatic tool--when someone else is out of tune but continues to play, you simply make a show of tuning your own instrument with the tuner, and then hand it to them, saying, "You're probably spot on--you'll get nothing but the green light." Which is just too tempting a dare for most people to pass up....
If his out of tune box clashes as much as is claimed in the initial post then I might suggest a possible solution. When yer man starts to play -- everyone who's out of tune with him should just stop playing. We would soon find out how many people are in his tuning. If it's only him -- he'll be playing alone. If he asks the non fixed pitch instruments to tune up to him they can let him know who they tuned up to and that they came to play with those folks -- so no thanks. Soon yer man will be playing alone every time he begins to play. The rest of you can tell him it's too painful to play with the music out of tune like that. Things will work themselves out.
@Farr
Tuning by ear is the easy bit. Which box would you tune to? if I tune to him I'm clashing with the other box and concertinas. If I tune to the box thats IN tune I clash with him. Now can you explain how to tune the conertinas and the other box to him. Remember this has to be done in the session and quickly.
I think bb has the answer but it might offend and then we could end up going home before midnight and the Belfast accent might be difficult for a Yorkshireman.
Seriously though I think the cold shoulder approach is probably the easiest way out of this situation.
Is it me or do a lot of middling fiddlers go flat in the second octave (using whistle/flute octaves) of a tune? I know for a fact that sometimes it's me (too sharp in my 2nd A & ) but I do notice this phenomenon even when I am not playing.
I once went into a Belfast branch of Pizza Express, on the way back home after delivering a training session using a range of audio visual stuff. While waiting for my pizza I was fiddling around with my bag, which had a load of cables and strange bits of equipment in it.
The waitress who served me commented "and would that be yer wee bomb there?"
What would you do in a situation like this?
What would you do in a situation like this?
At last nights session we had 2 boxes 2 concertinas several fiddles, mandolins and a banjo.
One of the boxes and the concertinas tuned to concert pitch and recorded accuarately on a 2 different tuners.
The other box tuned sharp of the rest of us dominating the session. When we told him he was out of tune he told us that he had just had it tuned by a well known tuner and therefore it is in perfect tune.
The session was an absolute mess with the other box and the concertinas clashing.
The older concertina player (aged 60) being a relative beginner was quite upset thinking it was his fault and had to be reassured after the offending box player had left. We often get a number of concertinas and a couple of other box players in this session.
The offending box player who incidentally is an ex Guard, has started coming regularly now and we don't quite know how to deal with this situation short of telling him to f*** off.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Bernie
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Did you try asking him to set to dry single reed? If it's still noticeably sharp and spoils the session then let him play on his own by either not joining in if he starts a set, or stopping when he joins in. If he asks why you're stopping, explain that you're out of tune with him. If he then tells you to tune up, tell him you already have, with an electronic tuner.
This may mean that you don't get to play for long periods for a couple of weeks, and you might have to listen to him solo a few times, but he'll soon get bored of giving a one-man concert. And for you it should be more fun *not* playing under those circumstances than joining in and listening to a cacophany of out-of-tune instruments, right?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
cacophony
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
You just have to face up to him and point out he's been mis-tuned, and can't fit in until it's corrected. It's not as if it's his fault, the tuner has made the error, you just have to demonstrate this to him. He will have a reasonable complaint, after all, it's just you have to get past his attitude.
Good luck !
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
And you can also tell him that the majority of fixed pitch instruments in agreement rule the session's tuning, regardless of whether they're A440.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
How out of tune is his box?
I know that boxes with two reeds usually have one at concert pitch and the other slightly above to get the tremolo effect. This results in the net pitch sounding slighty sharp - but maybe not as sharp as you are experiencing.
Concertinas having but a single reed will of course be tuned to concert pitch (if accurately tuned).
Some boxes, like the Castagnari Lilly, have only one reed for the melody notes, so they will sound more like a concertina.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
dont beat about the bush by cowardly not playing with him you need to tell him straight out before the box comes out of the case and if he is offended and cheesed off so be it but choose words different to f off mabe he is a little thick and needs convincing more than once that whoever tuned his box has got it wrong
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
"who incidentally is an ex Guard"
so what?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Sorry - I leaned on the post button too soon - didn't mean to sound unhelpful.
Meant to say more:
So what? Does that imply he is big and tough? Is he going to be allowed ruin the session just cos he's big and tough?
From your description there are 8 or 9 or more of you - that's well over half a ton of you if you want to get physical, and a landslide majority if you want to be democratic.
I hope you get it sorted - you probably just need to do as Pete and Laitch and Macthewife suggest.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
But he's already told him he was out of tune and it didn't work. Why should it work next time? With people like that you either go elsewhere and play, or you stay in the same room and stop playing, or you tell them to eff off, but that's not very nice.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Dave, it could be even riskier. He might phone his old pals "down the nick" and get them to stop the "lock in"......
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by John J.
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Is there anyone at the session who will admit to being this box player's friend? Or someone at least on a first name basis with him? If so, why not ring him up to play a few tunes before the next session. Take an electronic tuner along (and be absolutely certain that it's dead on A = 440--some can be re-calibrated, and that can happen inadvertently), and find out just how far off his tuning is. Show him the results on the tuner.
But do it all in private so he won't feel singled out or challenged in front of the group. You might even suggest that (if indeed his box is sharp) he go get the box retuned before the next session, and then act like nothing's changed when he seamlessly fits in.
But don't get your hopes too high--anyone who insists on playing when the group is painfully out of tune is probably more interested in being "right" than in making good music.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
@Johnj
You hit it spot on thats the worry.
@Will, there is someone who introduced him to the session who could perhaps have a quiet word with him but he is very assertive so I don't have high hopes.
I for one did stop playing for quite some time last night. Perhaps if everyone else did the same he might get the message. It was absolute bedlem at one stage no enjoyment whatsoever and it ended up with the bar proping me up.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Bernie
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
If someone can produce an A440 tuning fork that could be used to check the calibration of the electronic tuners (which can inadvertently stray from their settings) then there should be no further argument.
I have two A440 tuning forks (one for each fiddle case if you're wondering), both different makes and sizes, and they both give out the same A440 frequency, as evidenced by the lack of a beat tone when they are struck together. So I would say I've got a reasonably reliable tuning source.
If anyone is absolutely paranoid about tuning - and I'm of the view that a little bit of "moisture" in tuning never did anyone any harm in sessions - then reference tuning forks used for scientific purposes are available.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
I would agree with Dow. I just wouldn't play as long as he insists on playing out of tune. You guys just have to brazen it out. I'd just stop & when he asks why you have stopped, just politely explain that you simply cannot play out of tune!
If you stop playing he's bound to get fed up.
I think it's the only way to go.
It may spoil a session or two, but eventually you will get your session back.
Good Luck.
Dow, are you sure it's not spelt - cockof&nny or Cockovan-y?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Tell him there's a great Eb session up the road is one solution. Seriously though, I've often thought that the Eb thing was based on snobbery an exclusion.
In this case the old dilemma of whether or not to tell the offending player that they need to change their tuning arises - just like Seamus Tansey and Sharon Langston.
My view is that you should grab the bull by the horns and tell him he's out of tune, and to get it fixed. Why have a majority of participants at a session inconvenienced by one boor?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by lysaghtm
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Nothing works like the cold shoulder - sounds harsh but obviously he is not listening and just does not care. I would be mortified if someone said that to me and I would get it fixed asap!!!
We had an offending musician at a session years and years ago who just did not listen when she was asked to tune up over and over and was just always out. She used to say ' oh well - it doesnt matter anyway' and just keep playing! In the end every time she started a tune - the entire session (except me because I didnt have a spine back then) would get up and go to the bar. At the time I didnt realise that by me sitting with her I was almost giving her a reason to keep starting tunes - I was encouraging her. In the end she moved to a different country. phew!
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bb
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Can no one tune by ear anymore? Just tune to him. Anyone who plays with difficult or fixed pitch instruments should try to tune to them, not expect them to do the impossible. Or is he so out that, say flutes or pipes simply won't go that flat. then I could see it being a problem. Seriously though; you could try adjusting yourself rather than insisting on your machine. A440 is over-rated.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Farr
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Farr - did you read the original post - how are all the other box players and concertina players supposed to tune to him. Anyhow - forget that....either play in tune - or dont play at all. Why bow down to him if he is the only one who isnt in tune? Forget that.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bb
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
As a fiddle player I've no problem with tuning to a fixed pitch instrument by ear, more than once in a session perhaps, because the tuning of fixed pitch instruments can and does chqnge with temperature and humidity. The big problem - which is what this discussion is all about - is when two or more fixed pitch instruments in a session have impossibly different base pitches.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
You were right the first time Bernie, tell him to f### off.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Just noticed you are English Bernie. Tell him to f''' off in a Belfast accent.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Yer right,bb. More than one box or concertina player becomes problematic for dozens of reasons. I guess the real question is: how do we deal with someone so tone deaf? It's an etiquette problem really. But i still wonder why musicians ( fiddle players especially ) refuse to learn to tune by ear. How do you trust your intonation?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Farr
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
"Most musicians I've had the pleasure of.." - too much information there me-thinks & a bit saucy, eh ecumenical?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Personally - I have OTD (obsessive tuning disorder) I find it very hard to tune by ear because I dont trust myself. So if someone else is out of tune - I assume its me. Therefore for the sake of everyone at the session I tune with an electronic tuner first, but always make sure with my box player fiance that I'm actually in tune. I dont see its a problem to use an electronic tuner if you feel that its a helpful tool. At least I'm not one of those people who just dont care if they are in tune or not and play anyway.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bb
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
ptarmydick! - who's been talking?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Well - I have had the habit for ten years, you can ask anyone I usually play with - its not even that I'm ever out of tunen is it Dow?? Its just never ever good enough - It has to be soooo spot on or I get really put off. And its just like a reassurance. Anyhow -as long as other people insist on being out of tune, then I think that mine is the least of the session problems
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bb
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
With Boxes & Concertinas, how many of their reeds are actually in perfect tune, really depends on when they were last tuned. Flutes, Pipes & Whistles are invariably slightly out, at some stage of the night, as are all the stringed instruments as they slide in & out of tune as the temp. & humidity vary too!
So thank goodness we have the good old constant 'Bodhrans' to keep us right!
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Don't feel bad, Beebs. I've tuned by ear for decades, but now I sometimes use an electronic tuner. In part, it's because my hearing isn't so keen anymore, especially when there's a lot of other noise around (like in a session). So I can just clip the sensor thingie onto my bridge and quietly pluck the strings while watching the readout until each string is to pitch, even if I can't hear what I'm doing over the din around me.
A tuner is also a very handy diplomatic tool--when someone else is out of tune but continues to play, you simply make a show of tuning your own instrument with the tuner, and then hand it to them, saying, "You're probably spot on--you'll get nothing but the green light." Which is just too tempting a dare for most people to pass up....
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
If his out of tune box clashes as much as is claimed in the initial post then I might suggest a possible solution. When yer man starts to play -- everyone who's out of tune with him should just stop playing. We would soon find out how many people are in his tuning. If it's only him -- he'll be playing alone. If he asks the non fixed pitch instruments to tune up to him they can let him know who they tuned up to and that they came to play with those folks -- so no thanks. Soon yer man will be playing alone every time he begins to play. The rest of you can tell him it's too painful to play with the music out of tune like that. Things will work themselves out.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Oh yeah - I know that. And I agree it *is* a crutch. But I'm set in my ways and all that soooo....
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by bb
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
"Go out and learn to tune your fiddle by the call of the cuckoo..." - give it a try here:
http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Birds/Cuckoo.wav
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
You should be out pleasuring musicians EM!
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Farr
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
@Farr
Tuning by ear is the easy bit. Which box would you tune to? if I tune to him I'm clashing with the other box and concertinas. If I tune to the box thats IN tune I clash with him. Now can you explain how to tune the conertinas and the other box to him. Remember this has to be done in the session and quickly.
I think bb has the answer but it might offend and then we could end up going home before midnight and the Belfast accent might be difficult for a Yorkshireman.
Seriously though I think the cold shoulder approach is probably the easiest way out of this situation.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bernie
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
this brings up an interesting question:
Is it me or do a lot of middling fiddlers go flat in the second octave (using whistle/flute octaves) of a tune? I know for a fact that sometimes it's me (too sharp in my 2nd A & ) but I do notice this phenomenon even when I am not playing.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Put this under his chair
http://www.maltaconference.com/filebank/imagebank/time%20bomb.gif
and all wander out to the loo at the appropriate time!!!!
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by mikk
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
Tremble Tremble - Remind me NEVER to upset mikk, if I ever end up in one of his sessions!
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: What would you do in a situation like this?
I once went into a Belfast branch of Pizza Express, on the way back home after delivering a training session using a range of audio visual stuff. While waiting for my pizza I was fiddling around with my bag, which had a load of cables and strange bits of equipment in it.
The waitress who served me commented "and would that be yer wee bomb there?"
So yes - the bomb would be a great idea!!!
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Mark Harmer