I just want to learn an instrumental. I love Irish very much, so I think I'll buy a Mandolin or Banjo. I'd also like to sing with this instrumental as accompany later.
There are actually two deals for beginners:
So can you give me some advice on which one I should pick?
I don't think either are good for accompanying a solo song to be honest. Maybe try finding a bouzouki(like a mandolin but an octave lower)?
Banjo can only really play tunes in a very fixed, non-dynamic way, it always has the same sound.
Mandolin is again a good melody instrument but I don't think it's low sustain and high pitch is suitable to accompany a song as you state you want to do this.
Bouzouki seems a good choice. What is your price range?
Well, for a start, the Banjo you are looking at is a 5 STRING BANJO & they are only very rarely seen being played with Irish Music & as this instrument is not thought of as an IRISH instrument, I wouldn't recommend you start with it.
I would only suggest you choose one of these, if you are into American/Appalachian/Bluegrass Music!
So that just leaves the Mandolin. You could, I suppose, learn a load of chords on this little instrument & then accompany yourself singing, but, once again, nobody does that, that I can think of, in Irish Music.
The normal approach, with a Mandolin, is to learn to play all the melodies/tunes by using a Plectrum, picking out all the individual notes.
So if you want to play Irish Tunes, then a Mandolin isn't a bad choice to get you started.
If your main objective though is really to play along with your singing, then PJA is right, think about getting yourself a Bouzouki, or a Guitar.
The cost of entry level Bouzouki, Mandolin or Guitar isn't that much, so if I were you I'd be thinking of getting myself a Mandolin for the Tunes & a Bouzouki or Guitar for the Songs.
You don't say whether you already play other instruments?
I only mention this because most folk in Ireland learn to play tunes on the Tin Whistle first before going on to learn other instruments.
A whistle is nice & cheap, so you could buy one & while you are deciding which stringed instrument to buy, start learning some tunes.
Very often musicians actually find themselves more comfortable playing wind instruments, than stringed instruments, but you don't know until you try them.
Nice thing about a Whistle is that you don't have any strings to tune - every time you pick it up!
I'd say, get yourself a Whistle today & get started.
Try & borrow one of the stringed instruments & see how you get on with them.
You do realise that it's a 5 STRING Banjo he's talking about, don't you?
Last time I saw a 5 String Banjo in a session was about 15 years ago & although the guy was a brilliant player (RIP Ray), he still had to ask us to play loads of tunes only in G.
Then he'd have to stop & re-tune the Banjo & then ask us to play play loads of tunes in another key
& again
& again
So not really, what I would consider, an ideal beginners instrument.......
So not really, what I would consider, an ideal ITM instrument.......
Well ... I play irish tunes on 5 strings banjo . It's because I already have one and cant afford a decent tenor at the moment.
I don't change tunings to play different keys , I play it like a tenor . Yet I have to stretch my little finger so much, that if I don't practice regularly , it really hurts and prevent me from playing more than one set without resting and crying. If I practice , I get along pretty well though.
I play guitar too , so finger stretching is not a new thing for me. Of course I wouldnt recommend it as a beggining instrument.
OK MANJO, so you are only using 4 strings, & you play it like a tenor, so you are NOT playing a 5 STRING banjo then, are you?
I wouldn't recommend that 'honantong' go out & buy a Tenor Banjo because he says he wants to accompany himself on his chosen instrument, while he 'sings'.
So a Tenor Banjo is not yer man for that job IMHO!
"I don't change tunings to play different keys" - well Duh, of course not, because you are NOT playing a 5 String Banjo!
"Yet I have to stretch my little finger so much" - have you tried to use different guage strings & fit a capo permanently up the neck. I'd say with a bit of experimentation you could find a more comfortable position, with less of a stretch, & save yourself some tears.
Of course what you really need, Manjo, is a TENOR BANJO.
Boy, are you going to have fun when you get your hands on a good Tenor Banjo!
Your are right . I'm actually playing a stretched tenor ...
I'm not familiar with the 5 string method , but I once heard someone playing with his fingers , and it didn't sound like irish trad sound at all.
For some reason , I don't like capos. I prefer to play stretchy on first position and cry a little. This way I'm getting used to the first position fingering and can try to play the same on mandolin or fiddle. And when the day comes - on a tenor banjo (fun it will be !)
Half the nomenclature problem is that a banjo is a banjo first, then the particular sort of banjo second. Most members of the public could recognise a banjo, but being able to tell if it was a banjo-ukelele a la George Formby, or a banjo-mandolin, or a tenor banjo, or a 5-string banjo, would be beyond them.
A similar problem occurs in the mandolin world - I keep argueing for a logical nomenclature, and to members of the public I always now explain my instrument as a long-necked octave mandolin, aka an irish bouzouki. Just calling it a 'zouk confuses people, outside this rarefied world anyway.
I won't go on any more, I'll just get back to sorting the beads...........
Ptarmigan - if manjo's banjo has 5 strings, he/she is playing a 5 string bajo even if it's being played in a 4 string style. Heck, even if he's pulled off the short string and restrung it like a plectrum banjo it's STILL a 5 string banjo - you can't change the instrument (unless you take a saw to the fretboard) - it is what it is. There are multiple 5 string styles (some of which feature a significant amount of melody picking), and perhaps that is what you're trying to state - simply that he's not playing his 5 string in the commonly thought of 5 string style.
I sat in a session in St. Louis last fall with a fantastic 5 string banjo player who played the tunes wonderfully. He NEVER had to retune. A standard 5 string banjo has the ability to play every note in ITM up to speed if you're good enough. Yes, I imagine it would be harder than me plucking along on my tenor, but it was obviously quite doable. He also played in the standard 5 string tuning since he didn't want to relearn a different tuning and had been playing bluegrass for years before hand (before that, growing up in Ireland, he played guitar in Ceili bands).
OK - rant over, but I agree that a Tenor better suited for ITM and a bouzouki or guitar is more commonly seen when singing. However, doesn't Turlough Boylan play tenor and sing simultaneously? I thought I saw that when I last saw him with Glenn Road...I'll have to ask him if he pops around our session next time he's in town.
Okay, I'm being provocative. I agree with Ptarmigan; the tenor banjo and the mandolin are both melody instruments that don't provide much backing for a singer. They are both effective for obbligato or a duet effect, but when you try to do that by yourself it's like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time.
If I were you, Manjo, I would sing a capella when the spirit moved me, and play tunes the rest of the time. Oh, come to think of it, that's what I do when I'm being me!
Jayhawk, honantong is a complete beginner who is trying to get into ITM & when he ask his question here, it is our responsibility I think, to make things as easy as possible for him or her.
If someone re-tunes a 5 String Banjo, removes the 5th string & uses a plectrum & Tenor Banjo style & technique to play their music, as far as I am concerned, they're playing Tenor Banjo.
Shut your eyes & you hear Tenor Banjo!
It's what comes out of the instrument & how the sound is produced that makes the music, not what shape the box is!
OK so one person on the planet sings along with a Tenor Banjo.
Is that a solid basis for encouraging honantong to rush out & do likewise, so that he can sound Irish & fit in with the first ITM sessions he encounters?
I have heard a number of brilliant 5 String Banjo players, playing ITM.
In fact I have a whole LP of the stuff around here somewhere, but let's be perfectly honest, the tunes these guys play are Irish tunes, but that aint, by any stretch of the imagination, ITM that comes out of those G Banjos.
Also, I'd be surprised if your St. Louis Banjo player didn't have Scruggs Pegs fitted, which would make key changing much simpler.
I have no doubt he's a great player but if he was playing ITM, it would have been - ITM, but not as we know it, Jim!
I think we need to try & help honantong onto the ITM ladder as simply as possible.
If someone came to you & said they wanted to play ITM & asked you which Saxophone you would recommend, would you not feel obligated to point out that their chosen instrument wasn't actually recognised as an ITM instrument & that it might be an idea to start first with one that is A - easier to play & B - is not going to make them a laughing stock when they first take it down the Pub?
Let's try & keep it simple for honantong, shall we?
A complete beginner? In that case, honantong, start with the mandolin -- picking tunes. Learn the modes, scales and chords, and then begin to branch out with other instruments. Accompanying your own singing can come later; at this point, concentrate on mastering your first instrument.
The mandolin is a friendly little beast, easy to pick up for a few minutes of picking and just as easy to park on the sofa while you do something else. (Then go back to practising.) Unlike a banjo or a guitar, it's easy to carry around so you can get in half an hour of picking here, 45 minutes there. It's also not very loud. I practise in my cubicle at the office, in the kitchen at home -- pretty well anywhere. I played for hours while waiting for a plane at Heathrow once, getting several new tunes thoroughly learned and not bothering anyone -- though an Irish couple asked if I knew any waltzes.
Playing the mandolin teaches both chording and fiddle-fingering in the left hand, and both picking and strumming in the right hand. Consequently, you are well prepared for your second instrument, and then your third ... !
Fair play to most of your points Ptarmigan...but you need to get yourself to St. Louis to hear this guy play. Sure, he's gifted, but it was pure ITM coming out of that banjo and it sounded right (this coming from primarily a flute player but I've a tenor I've been playing a few months so I know what they sound like). Also, the 5 string banjo was used before the tenor even existed by folks playing ITM: http://www.standingstones.com/banjo.html - so I personally do think the view they can't be used for ITM is a more recent view than a traditional view.
I do hope you notice in my post I agreed that bouzouki and guitar were better suited for back-up than tenor - I just pointed out the exception to the rule. And, if our fellow wants to sing back-up the 5 string banjo works very well (I'm not alone in this view: http://www.irish-banjo.com/instruments/five-string-banjo/index.html ).
Yes Jayhawk, I've read Mick's piece before, but I think the crucial point is that we have an etching of a Banjo player with the body of a 5 string banjo, but how many strings were actually on the Banjo & was he playing it with a Plectrum or his fingers?
Also, Mick talks about the Tenor being invented in around 1915, but it was actually invented before that. One date is 1907, but I believe it was even earlier, as I've seen an old Vega with a 1903 or 4 date:
I know about the fretless banjos too cause I have a 7 string fretless myself.
Personally, I don't think the 5 strings were used for tunes but more for accompaniment to songs or backing tunes perhaps & then as soon as the Tenor became available, tunes were played on those alright. So I believe the Tenor has been the preferred Banjo for ITM tunes for almost 100 years & the 5 string has never been suited, & never accepted, as an ITM instrument - ever!
The 5 string has had a very minor role in ITM, mostly for backing singers like yer woman Barry, frae Dublin & one of the Dubliners, whereas the Tenor has been the banjo of choice for ITM enthusiasts right down the line.
One statement on that last link of yours certainly rang true for me:
"Frailing or clawhammering an Irish dance tune might sound great, but it doesn't sound the least Irish!"
I'll 2nd that!
5 String Banjo - great instrument - just not for ITM.
The “guy in St. Louis with the 5-string banjo” is Jerry Moloney, who is the leader and organizer of the St. Louis Irish Sessions, the longest standing regular session in the area and the “St. Louis Irish Session Players” a subset of the session group that plays gigs and dances all over the area. He is a very serious and talented ITM player, who is well respected in the very lively local ITM community, which includes several Irish expatriates and many fine musicians. Jerry is from County Kerry and started on more trad instruments as a young boy in Ireland, but like many people, took up the guitar when the Beatles got popular. When he first came to the states, there wasn’t much of an ITM scene, so he got into bluegrass and because there were so many guitarists around, he took up the banjo. As the ITM scene developed, he decided to stick with the instrument. BTW, he does not use Scruggs tuners, but you never notice him retuning. His banjo always sounds very appropriate for ITM. He said it took him about 2 years of hard study to adapt the 5-string for ITM. He also said he is one of only about 10-15 players in the world he knows of who are serious ITM 5-string players.
Honantong have you been following this thread?
If so, does it make any sense?
Are you any wiser?
Has any of this chatter helped you to make a decision?
Which instrument do you think you will try?
P.S. Yeah, OK Grego, but one swallow doesn't make a Summer & you must admit, it's not common practice for singers of Irish songs to accompany themselves on a Mandolin.
Oh, were we all as talented as Andy Irvine .................................
If I remember correctly, Andy Irvine is playing an octave mandolin or an Irish bouzouki on "The Blacksmith". As honantong is a complete beginner, an octave is probably not the ideal instrument for him/her.
Ditto the singing while playing; s/he should develop these skills separately until s/he plays at least as well as s/he sings, then put them together.
Chris Grotewohl from the midwest, I think the Kansas City area, plays celtic tunes on a five string banjo. I have a CD that he put out several years ago. I can't find a web site of his but he is mentioned at the web site of www.celticmusic.com/artists.html. He has played with Connie Dover and Roger Landes in concerts in Kansas City several years ago.
Thanks Mando Johnny for the additional information on Jerry (I'd forgotten his name - heck of a good guy - got me a few pints at the "regular's rate" at a pub near Music Folk where the session is held).
Hi! I play with SLISP in St. Louis. Jerry , our banjo player , is magnificent. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him play. I didn't think that you could do that with a banjo.
He runs the sessin every Wednesday night at Music Folk. All are invited. It is great fun. There is a little bit for everyone... beginners through experienced players.
I am the keyboard player. I have been into ITM for about 20 years now- albeit, playing classical piano since I was six-years-old.
Instead of doubting whether Jerry is accomplished or not, I challenge you to come to St. Louis to hear for yourself.
You are very welcome.
Sln!
mk
ps. Check out Augustaheritage.com for an awesome adventure into learning from the professionals........including Mark Stone..... : )
Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
I just want to learn an instrumental. I love Irish very much, so I think I'll buy a Mandolin or Banjo. I'd also like to sing with this instrumental as accompany later.
There are actually two deals for beginners:
So can you give me some advice on which one I should pick?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Guitar/Other/Stringed/Instruments?sku=511197
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Guitar/Acoustic?sku=511196
thanks
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by honantong
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
I don't think either are good for accompanying a solo song to be honest. Maybe try finding a bouzouki(like a mandolin but an octave lower)?
Banjo can only really play tunes in a very fixed, non-dynamic way, it always has the same sound.
Mandolin is again a good melody instrument but I don't think it's low sustain and high pitch is suitable to accompany a song as you state you want to do this.
Bouzouki seems a good choice. What is your price range?
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Well, for a start, the Banjo you are looking at is a 5 STRING BANJO & they are only very rarely seen being played with Irish Music & as this instrument is not thought of as an IRISH instrument, I wouldn't recommend you start with it.
I would only suggest you choose one of these, if you are into American/Appalachian/Bluegrass Music!
So that just leaves the Mandolin. You could, I suppose, learn a load of chords on this little instrument & then accompany yourself singing, but, once again, nobody does that, that I can think of, in Irish Music.
The normal approach, with a Mandolin, is to learn to play all the melodies/tunes by using a Plectrum, picking out all the individual notes.
So if you want to play Irish Tunes, then a Mandolin isn't a bad choice to get you started.
If your main objective though is really to play along with your singing, then PJA is right, think about getting yourself a Bouzouki, or a Guitar.
The cost of entry level Bouzouki, Mandolin or Guitar isn't that much, so if I were you I'd be thinking of getting myself a Mandolin for the Tunes & a Bouzouki or Guitar for the Songs.
You don't say whether you already play other instruments?
I only mention this because most folk in Ireland learn to play tunes on the Tin Whistle first before going on to learn other instruments.
A whistle is nice & cheap, so you could buy one & while you are deciding which stringed instrument to buy, start learning some tunes.
Very often musicians actually find themselves more comfortable playing wind instruments, than stringed instruments, but you don't know until you try them.
Nice thing about a Whistle is that you don't have any strings to tune - every time you pick it up!
I'd say, get yourself a Whistle today & get started.
Try & borrow one of the stringed instruments & see how you get on with them.
Wishing you lots of fun with your music.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
i like the banjo, its got a really nice sound to it, and it does sound good with the pipes and fiddle.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Scrappy the Godo
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
I don't.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
You do realise that it's a 5 STRING Banjo he's talking about, don't you?
Last time I saw a 5 String Banjo in a session was about 15 years ago & although the guy was a brilliant player (RIP Ray), he still had to ask us to play loads of tunes only in G.
Then he'd have to stop & re-tune the Banjo & then ask us to play play loads of tunes in another key
& again
& again
So not really, what I would consider, an ideal beginners instrument.......
So not really, what I would consider, an ideal ITM instrument.......
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Well ... I play irish tunes on 5 strings banjo . It's because I already have one and cant afford a decent tenor at the moment.
I don't change tunings to play different keys , I play it like a tenor . Yet I have to stretch my little finger so much, that if I don't practice regularly , it really hurts and prevent me from playing more than one set without resting and crying. If I practice , I get along pretty well though.
I play guitar too , so finger stretching is not a new thing for me. Of course I wouldnt recommend it as a beggining instrument.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by manjo
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
OK MANJO, so you are only using 4 strings, & you play it like a tenor, so you are NOT playing a 5 STRING banjo then, are you?
I wouldn't recommend that 'honantong' go out & buy a Tenor Banjo because he says he wants to accompany himself on his chosen instrument, while he 'sings'.
So a Tenor Banjo is not yer man for that job IMHO!
"I don't change tunings to play different keys" - well Duh, of course not, because you are NOT playing a 5 String Banjo!
"Yet I have to stretch my little finger so much" - have you tried to use different guage strings & fit a capo permanently up the neck. I'd say with a bit of experimentation you could find a more comfortable position, with less of a stretch, & save yourself some tears.
Of course what you really need, Manjo, is a TENOR BANJO.
Boy, are you going to have fun when you get your hands on a good Tenor Banjo!
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Your are right . I'm actually playing a stretched tenor ...
I'm not familiar with the 5 string method , but I once heard someone playing with his fingers , and it didn't sound like irish trad sound at all.
For some reason , I don't like capos. I prefer to play stretchy on first position and cry a little. This way I'm getting used to the first position fingering and can try to play the same on mandolin or fiddle. And when the day comes - on a tenor banjo (fun it will be !)
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by manjo
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
honantong, if you are not too familiar with the different types of Banjo, this page will help:
http://www.andybanjo.com/beginners.htm
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Half the nomenclature problem is that a banjo is a banjo first, then the particular sort of banjo second. Most members of the public could recognise a banjo, but being able to tell if it was a banjo-ukelele a la George Formby, or a banjo-mandolin, or a tenor banjo, or a 5-string banjo, would be beyond them.
A similar problem occurs in the mandolin world - I keep argueing for a logical nomenclature, and to members of the public I always now explain my instrument as a long-necked octave mandolin, aka an irish bouzouki. Just calling it a 'zouk confuses people, outside this rarefied world anyway.
I won't go on any more, I'll just get back to sorting the beads...........
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Ptarmigan - if manjo's banjo has 5 strings, he/she is playing a 5 string bajo even if it's being played in a 4 string style. Heck, even if he's pulled off the short string and restrung it like a plectrum banjo it's STILL a 5 string banjo - you can't change the instrument (unless you take a saw to the fretboard) - it is what it is. There are multiple 5 string styles (some of which feature a significant amount of melody picking), and perhaps that is what you're trying to state - simply that he's not playing his 5 string in the commonly thought of 5 string style.
I sat in a session in St. Louis last fall with a fantastic 5 string banjo player who played the tunes wonderfully. He NEVER had to retune. A standard 5 string banjo has the ability to play every note in ITM up to speed if you're good enough. Yes, I imagine it would be harder than me plucking along on my tenor, but it was obviously quite doable. He also played in the standard 5 string tuning since he didn't want to relearn a different tuning and had been playing bluegrass for years before hand (before that, growing up in Ireland, he played guitar in Ceili bands).
OK - rant over, but I agree that a Tenor better suited for ITM and a bouzouki or guitar is more commonly seen when singing. However, doesn't Turlough Boylan play tenor and sing simultaneously? I thought I saw that when I last saw him with Glenn Road...I'll have to ask him if he pops around our session next time he's in town.
Eric
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Why choose? Play both.
Okay, I'm being provocative. I agree with Ptarmigan; the tenor banjo and the mandolin are both melody instruments that don't provide much backing for a singer. They are both effective for obbligato or a duet effect, but when you try to do that by yourself it's like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time.
If I were you, Manjo, I would sing a capella when the spirit moved me, and play tunes the rest of the time. Oh, come to think of it, that's what I do when I'm being me!
Charmion in Ottawa
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Charmion
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Sorry -- my last was directed to honantong, the originator of this thread.
Charmion in Ottawa
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Charmion
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Jayhawk, honantong is a complete beginner who is trying to get into ITM & when he ask his question here, it is our responsibility I think, to make things as easy as possible for him or her.
If someone re-tunes a 5 String Banjo, removes the 5th string & uses a plectrum & Tenor Banjo style & technique to play their music, as far as I am concerned, they're playing Tenor Banjo.
Shut your eyes & you hear Tenor Banjo!
It's what comes out of the instrument & how the sound is produced that makes the music, not what shape the box is!
OK so one person on the planet sings along with a Tenor Banjo.
Is that a solid basis for encouraging honantong to rush out & do likewise, so that he can sound Irish & fit in with the first ITM sessions he encounters?
I have heard a number of brilliant 5 String Banjo players, playing ITM.
In fact I have a whole LP of the stuff around here somewhere, but let's be perfectly honest, the tunes these guys play are Irish tunes, but that aint, by any stretch of the imagination, ITM that comes out of those G Banjos.
Also, I'd be surprised if your St. Louis Banjo player didn't have Scruggs Pegs fitted, which would make key changing much simpler.
I have no doubt he's a great player but if he was playing ITM, it would have been - ITM, but not as we know it, Jim!
I think we need to try & help honantong onto the ITM ladder as simply as possible.
If someone came to you & said they wanted to play ITM & asked you which Saxophone you would recommend, would you not feel obligated to point out that their chosen instrument wasn't actually recognised as an ITM instrument & that it might be an idea to start first with one that is A - easier to play & B - is not going to make them a laughing stock when they first take it down the Pub?
Let's try & keep it simple for honantong, shall we?
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Aye Charmion - "pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time." I must admit, I'd far rather pat my head & rub someone else's stomach
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Charmion, I like your notion of - "honantong, the originator", it has a kind of a ring to it.
I can just imagine that, as the title of the next Hollywood 'Super Hero' Blockbuster:
Look out Flash Gordon, here comes:
HONANTONG the ORIGINATOR
Wonder what his super powers are?
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
A complete beginner? In that case, honantong, start with the mandolin -- picking tunes. Learn the modes, scales and chords, and then begin to branch out with other instruments. Accompanying your own singing can come later; at this point, concentrate on mastering your first instrument.
The mandolin is a friendly little beast, easy to pick up for a few minutes of picking and just as easy to park on the sofa while you do something else. (Then go back to practising.) Unlike a banjo or a guitar, it's easy to carry around so you can get in half an hour of picking here, 45 minutes there. It's also not very loud. I practise in my cubicle at the office, in the kitchen at home -- pretty well anywhere. I played for hours while waiting for a plane at Heathrow once, getting several new tunes thoroughly learned and not bothering anyone -- though an Irish couple asked if I knew any waltzes.
Playing the mandolin teaches both chording and fiddle-fingering in the left hand, and both picking and strumming in the right hand. Consequently, you are well prepared for your second instrument, and then your third ... !
Charmion in Ottawa
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Charmion
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
I vote Mandolin. Plus a Mando sounds better for backing songs anyway, I just don't think the Banjo is suited to that at all, way less than a Mando.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Ptarmigan, his superpower is obviously tolerating the shower of blether to be found here!
I'll get me coat ...
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Charmion
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Relax, Charmion, ............Chill Out, ................it's Saturday!
Sadly though, it's me who must get my coat now!
Time for toons, bye....................................
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Fair play to most of your points Ptarmigan...but you need to get yourself to St. Louis to hear this guy play. Sure, he's gifted, but it was pure ITM coming out of that banjo and it sounded right (this coming from primarily a flute player but I've a tenor I've been playing a few months so I know what they sound like). Also, the 5 string banjo was used before the tenor even existed by folks playing ITM: http://www.standingstones.com/banjo.html - so I personally do think the view they can't be used for ITM is a more recent view than a traditional view.
I do hope you notice in my post I agreed that bouzouki and guitar were better suited for back-up than tenor - I just pointed out the exception to the rule. And, if our fellow wants to sing back-up the 5 string banjo works very well (I'm not alone in this view: http://www.irish-banjo.com/instruments/five-string-banjo/index.html ).
Eric
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Whoops, I meant play back up while singing not sing back-up...
Eric
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Yes Jayhawk, I've read Mick's piece before, but I think the crucial point is that we have an etching of a Banjo player with the body of a 5 string banjo, but how many strings were actually on the Banjo & was he playing it with a Plectrum or his fingers?
Also, Mick talks about the Tenor being invented in around 1915, but it was actually invented before that. One date is 1907, but I believe it was even earlier, as I've seen an old Vega with a 1903 or 4 date:
1907- J. B. Schall of Chicago invents Tenor Banjo or 4 string banjo tuned like a mandolin.
http://bluegrassbanjo.org/banhist.html
I know about the fretless banjos too cause I have a 7 string fretless myself.
Personally, I don't think the 5 strings were used for tunes but more for accompaniment to songs or backing tunes perhaps & then as soon as the Tenor became available, tunes were played on those alright. So I believe the Tenor has been the preferred Banjo for ITM tunes for almost 100 years & the 5 string has never been suited, & never accepted, as an ITM instrument - ever!
The 5 string has had a very minor role in ITM, mostly for backing singers like yer woman Barry, frae Dublin & one of the Dubliners, whereas the Tenor has been the banjo of choice for ITM enthusiasts right down the line.
One statement on that last link of yours certainly rang true for me:
"Frailing or clawhammering an Irish dance tune might sound great, but it doesn't sound the least Irish!"
I'll 2nd that!
5 String Banjo - great instrument - just not for ITM.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
The “guy in St. Louis with the 5-string banjo” is Jerry Moloney, who is the leader and organizer of the St. Louis Irish Sessions, the longest standing regular session in the area and the “St. Louis Irish Session Players” a subset of the session group that plays gigs and dances all over the area. He is a very serious and talented ITM player, who is well respected in the very lively local ITM community, which includes several Irish expatriates and many fine musicians. Jerry is from County Kerry and started on more trad instruments as a young boy in Ireland, but like many people, took up the guitar when the Beatles got popular. When he first came to the states, there wasn’t much of an ITM scene, so he got into bluegrass and because there were so many guitarists around, he took up the banjo. As the ITM scene developed, he decided to stick with the instrument. BTW, he does not use Scruggs tuners, but you never notice him retuning. His banjo always sounds very appropriate for ITM. He said it took him about 2 years of hard study to adapt the 5-string for ITM. He also said he is one of only about 10-15 players in the world he knows of who are serious ITM 5-string players.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Mando Johnny
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Sounds interesting, do you know if Jerry Moloney has recorded?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Just found this:
http://www.musicfolk.com/docs/Features/Feature_IrishSession.htm
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Mandolin not suitable to accompany a song? Listen to Andy Irvine playing and singing the Blacksmith and many other songs
Admittedly your brain needs two CPUs to sing and play countermelody at the same time, but some people seem to be able to hack it.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by grego
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Honantong have you been following this thread?
If so, does it make any sense?
Are you any wiser?
Has any of this chatter helped you to make a decision?
Which instrument do you think you will try?
P.S. Yeah, OK Grego, but one swallow doesn't make a Summer & you must admit, it's not common practice for singers of Irish songs to accompany themselves on a Mandolin.
Oh, were we all as talented as Andy Irvine .................................
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
If I remember correctly, Andy Irvine is playing an octave mandolin or an Irish bouzouki on "The Blacksmith". As honantong is a complete beginner, an octave is probably not the ideal instrument for him/her.
Ditto the singing while playing; s/he should develop these skills separately until s/he plays at least as well as s/he sings, then put them together.
Charmion in Ottawa
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Charmion
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Chris Grotewohl from the midwest, I think the Kansas City area, plays celtic tunes on a five string banjo. I have a CD that he put out several years ago. I can't find a web site of his but he is mentioned at the web site of www.celticmusic.com/artists.html. He has played with Connie Dover and Roger Landes in concerts in Kansas City several years ago.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by traveller
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Thanks Mando Johnny for the additional information on Jerry (I'd forgotten his name - heck of a good guy - got me a few pints at the "regular's rate" at a pub near Music Folk where the session is held).
Eric
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Choose betwen Mandolin and Banjo
Hi! I play with SLISP in St. Louis. Jerry , our banjo player , is magnificent. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him play. I didn't think that you could do that with a banjo.
He runs the sessin every Wednesday night at Music Folk. All are invited. It is great fun. There is a little bit for everyone... beginners through experienced players.
I am the keyboard player. I have been into ITM for about 20 years now- albeit, playing classical piano since I was six-years-old.
Instead of doubting whether Jerry is accomplished or not, I challenge you to come to St. Louis to hear for yourself.
You are very welcome.
Sln!
mk
ps. Check out Augustaheritage.com for an awesome adventure into learning from the professionals........including Mark Stone..... : )
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by mkvictor