Comments

Non-banjo players need reply.

Non-banjo players need reply.

Fellow banjoists, I've a few questions. I've been playing for half a lifetime but never have paid much attention to the "mechanics" of my instruments.

1) What are you playing at the moment ? Vega, Paragon, Paramount etc.

2) Have you got a natural or synthetic skin/vellum ? What are the pros and cons ?

3) Bridges.....what's your preference ?

4) Resonators, prefer or not ?



Re: The latter. I recently attained a 1927 Vega, Whyte Laydie, Style R. It was advertised as "open back" but I requested a Vega resonator and the dealer obliged.

http://www.bernunzio.com/item.php?sku=059463

I'm currently content with the tone and volume as the instrument stands but, am I getting the full potential ? Should I make any modifications ?

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Firstly - check out the two photos of Vegas here Strathfoyle:
http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/shops/shbirm.shtml#tenor%20banjos

Secondly, to answer your questions:
1) 1920's - John Grey

2) synthetic - I don't it play it that often these days, for it to matter which!
Friend in Dublin just fitted a natural to his Vegaphone & is delighted with the improvement.

3) Yes, I prefer a bridge! :-)

4) I prefer not to use the resonator because:
A - too loud when on
B - projects the sound away, when on
C - I prefer the Banjo to blend with the music, rather than dominate it.
D - it's one of those old brass jobs, with a narrow edge which cuts off the blood supply to my vital bits

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Ptarmigan

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Nice Vegas @ Hobgoblin and I wasn't far out with my estimation of UK/Irish prices, in my own mind at least. I think I got a bargain from John Bernunzio, decent guy and very obligeful staff. He fitted the resonator at no additional cost !

Taking your advice, I think I might play and listen without the resonator. If I don't like it I'll screw it back on. Not a big job.

I empathise with you totally re the "cutting edge" of the resonator. Mine is timber but can still do damage. I feel half legless after a session. :-)

Yep, I prefer a bridge too. :-) I might try without though ! Bridgeless, resonatorless banjo ! Go the full hog, take off the strings.....Hey Presto....you know what ! :-)

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

BTW...I forgot to mention.......I was guilty, as a sixteen year old, of dissecting a John Grey five string and attempting to remodel it as a guitar banjo. Messed the instrument up and passed it on to a better home. I know.......shame on me.....young and foolish !

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I have a variety of vegas, (Style M, Style R, Vegavox and Style X lucky me!)

I like a top frosted synthetic head (although I have a fibreskin one on my Style R which is OK too), the Vegavox has a normal white shiny head which I find too sharp in tone but have not got around to changing.

I like these bridges http://www.kateyzbb.com/ and mike is a total star when it comes to sorting out the right weight etc.

I like having the resonator on and off, depending. The Style M and R have no resonator while the Style X has a close fitting one and the Vegavox has that massive deep body. The Vegavox is LOUD but the Style X is just perfect to my ears - beautiful warm tone etc.

The other points you don't refer to which also make a big difference to the sound are tailpiece/ downforce (which I adjust on each banjo) and string weight for which I prefer phosphor bronze ones from Newtone strings 44 to 13 for short scales and 40 - 12 for standard scales.

Hope this helps.

Nick

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by nick b

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Thanks Nick for your input.

Interesting "bridge" site. Just measured my bridge and it's 3/8",
the closest I see on Mike's site is 1/2" but I see he makes to specification also.

Question. I'm pretty ok with the action just now......can I go much lower with bridge height for action improvement ?

Re: tailpiece. There's a screw at the back into the rim. Is that a tension adjuster?

Like your Vegavox mine has a shiney Remo head. You really think that's detrimental to the tone ?

Many thanks again, you seem to be a bit of a Vega buff: :-) You got any sites of Vega history ?



# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

He makes to specification so it won't be a problem

In terms of lowering bridge height , you can do it yourself by sandpapering off the bottom of the legs. Just do a little at a time so you don't take off too much. String height is obviously also affected by the nut which is a trickier job to lower, specialised files probably the best way (but again take it easy when you do it so it does not go too low)

The screw at the back could be to give you greater downforce angle.

Re: the shiny head, it is just my personal opinion it is probably not the biggest deal (hence why I have not changed it yet) but I think it is too bright / sharp for me.

As for history try this site for starters on the Style X http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/d/rdevelli/vegano.htm


As you can guess I love that phat vega sound

Nick

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by nick b

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Cheers again Nick. Interesting looking site, I'll have a more indepth read later.

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I'm currently playing a Vega Little Wonder with a vintage Rogers head (skin.) The pros for this head are simple, the sound can't be duplicated no matter how hard you try. Skin heads are fairly robust, especially the older ones that have been well cared for. Older skins have "the sound" and are tougher as they age. As long as you keep them hydrated (by using a humidifier in the room or case, not by adding water) they will perform to your liking.

The drawbacks are that the head pressure varies with both humidity and temperature (I know they are related <G>) so you have to "play in" a skin head so your body heat and the ambient temperature will tighten it up. In the old days before artificial heads, performers would use a low wattage light bulb to keep the head tight (remember there was no AC in those days either) and the sound right. Plus it added a little interest to the banjo to have colored lights behind the head.

If you go the skin head route, find the ideal head tension and then back off a little. Your skin head should come into that good sounding zone with a little playing.

Skin heads break if they are tightened too much or if they dry out. The latter is more likely to happen if you keep the head at greater than the tightness 80% level and usually if the banjo has been stored in an attic for years. I have several banjos with old skin heads and I buy skin heads used whenever I can, especially the three star Rogers heads.

The advantage of artificial heads is the ability to change the sound of your banjo and being able to tighten it up and keep it there. Clear heads are usually very bright and as you progress to the dullest sounding head (Fyberskin, in my opinion) you get a series of timbre/sound changes. In addition, an artificial head usually has one and sometimes two or three optimal head tension settings that give you the best sound. It is a long process to find out where the best settings are on each banjo and once you find it, you have to reset it a few times as heads, especially new ones, have a tendency to stretch and go out of the best tuning. I like to buy used artificial heads too as they are rarely overstretched and they tend to be inexpensive.

The bridge is the next thing that can change the sound of your banjo and probably the easiest one of the components that do so to change out. (In order of effect: head, head tension, bridge, tailpiece angle, tailpiece, strings - my opinion, of course, yours may vary.) I have gone to all MIke Smith bridges although I have an experimental Red Henry banjo bridge on my LW right now. (Red is known for making all maple mandolin bridges, look at http://www.murphymethod.com/redbridge.html for those, the banjo bridges are still in development.) If you get a new bridge, let it settle in for a week or so and then re-set the tension on the hooks as each bridge needs a slightly different head setup to work best. You can go to the Mel Bay website and see it.

I have an Oettinger tailpiece on my Little Wonder and love it. This style of tailpiece allows you to individually set the angle of the string to the bridge and that way you get the optimal pressure on the bridge.

I am using 42-11 stainless steel GHS custom strings for now that I got on sale when High Note Music went out of business. You can get a similar set from either Elderly Instruments (http://www.elderly.com) or Janet Davis Music (http://www.janetdavismusic.com) or make them up yourself from single strings.

I have a resonator on my instrument. I can play a varying level of dynamics on this instrument and I think that the natural skin head helps with that quality. If you are concerned about volume and don't want to change the head out, you can stuff a towel in between the dowel stick and the head. Vega resonators are easy to take off as you know.

I also play Lange designed instruments (Paramount and Epiphone - the old ones) which I love and have built a Gibson clone from First Quality (http://www.fqms.com) parts that is a great banjo for volume and to allow me to experiment with different settings. I have played a Paragon and it is a fabulous banjo too although very pricy. Tom Cussen's banjos are very good and for the money, the Gold Tone IT-250 is a good buy once you change the bridge and tailpiece (and the tuners if you have the money.)

I saw and played the banjo you have and I really liked it. Bernunzio's has had several terrific Vegas (and Paramounts) recently that I yearned after, but you can only have so many banjos (my wife draws the line at 15.) I am sure you will treasure it for a very long time.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by mikeyes

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Mike many thanks for your detailed advice which I'll bear in mind.

Changing the head is something I may consider further down the line along with other adjustments but, for now, I'm enjoying the instrument as it is.

I'm amazed to hear you played it and glad you enjoyed so. It's a small world indeed and getting smaller via t'internet :-)

Yeah, I've heard Tom Cussen is producing some nice banjos these days and value for money. Have you got one in your collection ?

Marvellous site of yours. I haven't got around to exploring it fully yet but came across a link here to an article on "The Right Hand" with an MP3 of John Carty. I thought I saved the link but can't find it. Could you possibly post it again. John's one of my favorite players and I was fortunate to meet him once many years ago back in Derry. A true gentleman.

Again many thanks.



# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Strathfoyle

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I use a skin head for playing my banjo. I usually get him in as protection against thieves!!

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by copo24

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Try http://www.banjosessions.com/aug05/righthand.html which is the August 2005 version of Banjosessions. You can go to the "Back Issues" and find the whole series.

I'm hoping to interview John Carty at the St. Louis Tionol March 31-April 2 where he will be teaching fiddle. Maybe I will have more video of John then !

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb05/sessions.html

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by mikeyes

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I play a 5-string ( ok, ok, I know ), with the same skin on it that was on when I bought it, 41 years ago. I do admit to not playing it much.
What I did do early on was to remove the resonator, as I couldn't play it quietly as a singer, and even to follow Pete Seeger's tips about what to stuff in the back between bridge and post to dampen it down a bit more.
What I've done recently is to replace the fitted bridge with a Red-Henry pattern bridge, somewhat scaled down but basically his "winged" design. Even on the old strings and skin the sound is rejuvenated.

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Guernsey Pete

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I really play Flute but I do play Banjo when I get a bit bored, then I remember how much more I like Flute.

1. A Weymann Style 140 (long neck)

2. I got a Synth Skin, but that is all I have ever known so I can't tell you how it compares.

3. I got a Grover on it now which sounds good after a bit of filing on the G and D slots.

4. I prefer no resonator most of the time. I just like the more open sound, I feel a Banjo should not have that much sustain.

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Why Bother?

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I have a very elderly (ca. 1924) Slingerland tenor banjo with the original vellum head. I got it about six months ago from a guy at a folk festival; the bridge was broken, it lacked five side hooks and it had its original, not very effective tuning pegs, so it's a good thing it cost me only U.S.$125. After Cdn$300 worth of parts and labour, it's kinda fun.

I'm surprised by how much I like it, although it is quite difficult to play compared to my usual instruments, a Kentucky mandolin and a Peter Cox octave mandolin. It has a pleasantly antique plunky sound that does not scare the cats or wake up the neighbours. The only playability problem I have with it now (after the tuner transplant, that is) is keeping my wrist clear of the head, as it lacks a wrist-rest.

I have no case for it, so I don't dare take it out of the house.

# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Charmion

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Charmion,

Go ahead and get an armrest or just rest your wrist on the head (i know, it hurts) since you really need an anchor that is not your fingers if you want to play consitently and have a good tone. A Vega style armrest is only US$9.95 at First Quality (http://www.fqms.com/Armrests_C1264.cfm) and will work very well with your instrument. All of my armrests are flush with the head (about 5 mm above, actually, so they don't impinge on the sound) and are great to use as a rest. If you keep your wrist clear of the head you have to either anchor your fingers on the head, anchor on the bridge/strings, or float above the head which is very hard and painful after a while. Fingers on the head affects the tone and stunts the stroke. You can't achieve good triplets like that although you can do a simulation of triplets with and anchored finger. Banjo players are contantly touching the strings and bridge, but usually only in a fleeting manner as they orient themselves on the instrument while playing. Resting your forearm on the armrest is the way to go in my opinion.

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html

# Posted on February 22nd 2006 by mikeyes

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

"I feel a Banjo should not have that much sustain." - quite right unseen122. If they were meant to have sustain we would be bowing the darn things!

# Posted on February 22nd 2006 by Ptarmigan

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I bought a no-maker's name 19-fret tenor banjo recently from a local antique shop - £70 English money, and I phoned up the dealer who was selling it to see if he had the case, and he found it for me. Vellum head, open back. It's been messed about with a bit - someone has tried to re-angle the dowel stick somewhat clumsily, so I've had a go at improving this. I think it could do with a new dowel stick - do I dare tackle this myself? Any tips? It had none-matching pegs, so I got some cheap planetary ones on eBay and they went on there nicely, and I've just ordered a new tailpiece (clam-shell) as the one that's on there is not much good. It sounds OK for such a small investment. The action is a little high still - but I can take the bridge and the nut down a bit more - I'll see what it's like with the new tailpiece. I wasn't sure if I could manage the reach on a 19 fret tenor, but I'm finding it's OK, and I like the warm plunky sound of the natural vellum. So now I'm tempted to get another...(but only if it's at least as old as I am)

# Posted on February 22nd 2006 by RichardB

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

You can fiddle with any amount of adjustables on a banjo and conjure up all sorts of sounds which is fine in the living room but take it to a sesh and that lovely tone fades into the "whole".Play outside and its different again.Give it to your mate to play and wow - its different again. Hard to tell what they really sound like.Maybe mines just awkward.

# Posted on February 22nd 2006 by Newty

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

I bought a cheap Banjo with no makers name on it, back in the 70s Richard.

Just for the crack I stuck one of those old Mulligan sticky labels from an LP up on the Headstock & folks kept coming up to me in sessions & saying "oh a Mulligan Banjo, I'd heard they were very good".

So, once you get her going, why not do likewise.
There are endless possibilities, like:

Rude-ish ones like:
Durex Banjo
Tampax Banjo

or in-joke ones like:
Castagnari Banjo
Jefferies Banjo
Sam Murray Banjo

# Posted on February 22nd 2006 by Ptarmigan

Re: Non-banjo players need reply.

Here is a good one. Rudall & Rose Banjo. I wonder how many Flutes players would say, "I didn't know they made Banjos also."

# Posted on February 23rd 2006 by Why Bother?

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