We're down to two solo mucicians here at the mo (Jersey Chanel Islands) and it wouldn't be such a problem if we had a guitar player that could manage to busk along, but they all seem to play the same three chord trick. I have played the guitar for a number of years, but I haven't been playing accompanyment to tunes.
I would like to get some tuition on this so that I could pass the info on to any potential players. I would be grateful for any recommendations or resources you may be able to recommend.
I'll humbly offer my advice... don't depend on guitar players or any other back-up for the music. One of the great things about ITM is that it's all there -- even if it's just one instrument. You can add as many others as you like provided they're in the same style. Guitar or other back-up is great, but NOT NECESSARY. Set yourself free.
Why not teach yourself by getting ideas from recordings?
PS if you want your old username back, click on "forgotten your password?" at the bottom of the list on the RHS of your screen and have Jeremy e-mail it to you.
I find it sounds very empty without a guitar player and would rather the three chord trick than none at all, but i do understand where you're coming from. Most guitar players i play with either play in drop D or else in DADGAD, this gives it a different sound. You can get books on playing in DADGAD or you can find stuff on the net. A couple of us actually heading out to Jersey for Paddys Day to play some music. We'll be plating in The Tipsy Toad on Paddys night and the night after. Think we're doing a gig in The bridge Bar on Paddys evening too so please call in. And if you're bored bring your instrument. I'm actually going to be in Jersey Next Sunday for a week so if youre playing any'sessions, i'd love to come.
If you have more gigs in France, let me back you, seriously! Actually 3 chords are generally adequate. The key is the backer understanding the rhythms fully, the scales used in ITM, & getting those 3 chords in the right places. It's worth sitting down with them (if they will) & playing through a few tunes slowly & asking them to really listen & back accurately. If they don't get it then maybe they never will. Phantom button is right though, you don't really need a backer at all!
I've had the good fortune to work with some of the best backers around, and I truly appreciate what competent back-up adds to the music. I also usually include back-up in gigs the band I work with does, but the sound of the music sans back-up has a quality just as powerful.
The guitar player I currently play with is the best in our area, in my opinion, but he has been obsessed with the banjo lately and we play a good deal of stuff with no back-up. Many times he'll switch back and forth and it allows us to enjoy the music both ways. Each way sounds refreshing. I understand your desire to have back-up, but my point is only that the music doesn't have to rely on it.
I do support the idea of finding guitar players who are willing to learn and helping them. If they play some other kind of music already they'll be likely to make the wrong assumptions at first. Usually it just means they have to get used to the rhythm and modes that ITM comes with.
Having had the experience of watching and helping two such guitar players, it's very interesting to watch them evolve. Both had to first adapt to the DADGAD tuning, and then to the modes and rhythm. It never happened over night, but they both worked very hard and became excellent players. (not because of me, but rather their own talent) One was a jazz guitarist prior to ITM, and the other had 20 years of professional experience as a bluegrass musician. The latter ended up playing with and touring extensively with some of the great legends of ITM.
But one thing that he learned along the way, that's interesting to this topic, is the value of no back-up. The fellow I referred to who toured with the likes of Paddy Keenan, Andrew MacNamara, Frankie Gavin, etc. would balance his presence in the music toggling between laying chords, picking the melody, and not playing at all.
Here are two books to look at. Both come with CDs.
"Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar" by Frank Kilkelly. This one has sections for standard, dropped D, double dropped D and DADGAD tuning, although the lessons can be applied across all of the tunings. http://www.irishguitar.net/
Celtic Back-Up For All Instrumentalists by Chris Smith. This excellent book is definative and not limited to a particular instrument. It teaches the *theory* of how to back Celtic music using plenty of examples and exercises, but you must then apply that knowlege to your own particular instrument. It's a must-have book for serious Irish accompaniment. http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=97205BCD
Another useful book is "Lunasa, The Music - 1996-2001". This covers every tune played on Lunasa's first three CDs, seventy-one in all. It's written by their guitar player at the time, Donogh Hennessy, and shows the chords he used for each of the tunes. Donogh plays in double-dropped D tuning so he also includes a section with the chord shapes he uses. This book is only available, I believe, from Lunasa's own website store, but they ship overseas. (One caveat: tunes and chords only reflect the 1st time through the tune and not variations on subsequent repetitions.) http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/lunasa/products/product-829633.stm
Is there really no-one with the wit to manage it in Jersey ?
Ah, well, what can you expect from those crapauds ? ( It's a local word, meaning a small amphibian ) ( you should hear what they call us Guernesaise ).
Seriously, all the above advice is good.
There are some good starts above. Also, Chris Smith, author of one of the books listed above, frequently posts on this site as coyotebanjo, and if you look under his profile, you will find some links to online stuff to help you.
When this subject came up before, I recommended that, as a start, you buy some of the tune books with guitar chords printed in them. While they are not always the best possible choices, they can at least start getting you headed in the right direction. But since some argued that was not a good approach, and would head you down some sort of "dark path" toward rotten accompaniment, I will not tell you that (oops, already did).
Darnoc, not to impugn or belittle the recommendations you've been given, but keep in mind you don't _have_ to play DADGAD, or Double Drop D, or like a John Doyle-Donogh Hennessy-Michael O'Suillebhan mix.
Learn some basic 1-4-5, Mixolydian/Dorian chord patterns in standard tuning and just get the darn rhythm right. I love innovation and adventure in music as much as the next guy, but sometimes it's easy to overlook the virtues of simplicity.
Actually, a young friend of mine is trying to learn some guitar accompaniment -- on the advice of a mutual friend of ours who declared that there aren't enough _women_ guitarists playing trad music. She's been turning to me for the occasional suggestion or tip, and it's a good exercise for _me_ to strip away all of the layers and extol the basics.
I have to agree with sts. Standard tuning and standard chords make a good starting place and tend to give you a better understanding of what’s really going in musically when you hit those strings. AND it can sound perfectly cool. A couple of years ago, I was watching a video of Kevin Burke and Michael O’Domhnaill from their early post-Bothy days and I couldn’t help noticing that Michael played a lot in standard tuning using standard chords. It sounded great because he played with a precisely creative rhythm and he understood the tunes.
Bluegrass accompanists only need to know the *meter* of the tune. Irish accompanists need to know the *rhythm* of the tune and its natural dynamics.
I think you’d do well to find somebody who’s already competent with standard tuning/chording and help them learn how to collaborate with the melody players in communicating the tune.
Agree with sts and Bob himself that standard tuning can do a lot of good stuff--the other tunings can make some interesting colors available, but they are not necessary. There is more talk about chords than rhythm above, but remember, it is rhythm that is the bedrock, and keeping the pulse is essential--nice steady beat without a lot of flashy distracting stuff is best.
Best of luck with it, if you are like me, you will really enjoy accompanying this music.
Guitar help please
Guitar help please
We're down to two solo mucicians here at the mo (Jersey Chanel Islands) and it wouldn't be such a problem if we had a guitar player that could manage to busk along, but they all seem to play the same three chord trick. I have played the guitar for a number of years, but I haven't been playing accompanyment to tunes.
I would like to get some tuition on this so that I could pass the info on to any potential players. I would be grateful for any recommendations or resources you may be able to recommend.
Thanks
Darnoc
(I forgot my password for this user name)
Regards
Conrad
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by darnoc
Re: Guitar help please
I'll humbly offer my advice... don't depend on guitar players or any other back-up for the music. One of the great things about ITM is that it's all there -- even if it's just one instrument. You can add as many others as you like provided they're in the same style. Guitar or other back-up is great, but NOT NECESSARY. Set yourself free.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Guitar help please
I know what you mean Phantom, and I have played gigs in france this year without accompanyment, but I do prefer to have it.
No fecker here seems to take it seriously and the few guys that do play just do the old three chord trick.
I have decided that I will learn more about it, in the hope that I meet somebody willing to have a go and I can teach them to some degree.
Chrres
C
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by darnoc
Re: Guitar help please
Why not teach yourself by getting ideas from recordings?
PS if you want your old username back, click on "forgotten your password?" at the bottom of the list on the RHS of your screen and have Jeremy e-mail it to you.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Guitar help please
I find it sounds very empty without a guitar player and would rather the three chord trick than none at all, but i do understand where you're coming from. Most guitar players i play with either play in drop D or else in DADGAD, this gives it a different sound. You can get books on playing in DADGAD or you can find stuff on the net. A couple of us actually heading out to Jersey for Paddys Day to play some music. We'll be plating in The Tipsy Toad on Paddys night and the night after. Think we're doing a gig in The bridge Bar on Paddys evening too so please call in. And if you're bored bring your instrument. I'm actually going to be in Jersey Next Sunday for a week so if youre playing any'sessions, i'd love to come.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by trudyod
Re: Guitar help please
The John Doyle video has helped many,He's a great player and a good teacher.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by dorian
Re: Guitar help please
Hey Conrad.
If you have more gigs in France, let me back you, seriously! Actually 3 chords are generally adequate. The key is the backer understanding the rhythms fully, the scales used in ITM, & getting those 3 chords in the right places. It's worth sitting down with them (if they will) & playing through a few tunes slowly & asking them to really listen & back accurately. If they don't get it then maybe they never will. Phantom button is right though, you don't really need a backer at all!
Good luck.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Leftheris
Re: Guitar help please
I've had the good fortune to work with some of the best backers around, and I truly appreciate what competent back-up adds to the music. I also usually include back-up in gigs the band I work with does, but the sound of the music sans back-up has a quality just as powerful.
The guitar player I currently play with is the best in our area, in my opinion, but he has been obsessed with the banjo lately and we play a good deal of stuff with no back-up. Many times he'll switch back and forth and it allows us to enjoy the music both ways. Each way sounds refreshing. I understand your desire to have back-up, but my point is only that the music doesn't have to rely on it.
I do support the idea of finding guitar players who are willing to learn and helping them. If they play some other kind of music already they'll be likely to make the wrong assumptions at first. Usually it just means they have to get used to the rhythm and modes that ITM comes with.
Having had the experience of watching and helping two such guitar players, it's very interesting to watch them evolve. Both had to first adapt to the DADGAD tuning, and then to the modes and rhythm. It never happened over night, but they both worked very hard and became excellent players. (not because of me, but rather their own talent) One was a jazz guitarist prior to ITM, and the other had 20 years of professional experience as a bluegrass musician. The latter ended up playing with and touring extensively with some of the great legends of ITM.
But one thing that he learned along the way, that's interesting to this topic, is the value of no back-up. The fellow I referred to who toured with the likes of Paddy Keenan, Andrew MacNamara, Frankie Gavin, etc. would balance his presence in the music toggling between laying chords, picking the melody, and not playing at all.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Guitar help please
Here are two books to look at. Both come with CDs.
"Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar" by Frank Kilkelly. This one has sections for standard, dropped D, double dropped D and DADGAD tuning, although the lessons can be applied across all of the tunings.
http://www.irishguitar.net/
Celtic Back-Up For All Instrumentalists by Chris Smith. This excellent book is definative and not limited to a particular instrument. It teaches the *theory* of how to back Celtic music using plenty of examples and exercises, but you must then apply that knowlege to your own particular instrument. It's a must-have book for serious Irish accompaniment.
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=97205BCD
Another useful book is "Lunasa, The Music - 1996-2001". This covers every tune played on Lunasa's first three CDs, seventy-one in all. It's written by their guitar player at the time, Donogh Hennessy, and shows the chords he used for each of the tunes. Donogh plays in double-dropped D tuning so he also includes a section with the chord shapes he uses. This book is only available, I believe, from Lunasa's own website store, but they ship overseas. (One caveat: tunes and chords only reflect the 1st time through the tune and not variations on subsequent repetitions.)
http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/lunasa/products/product-829633.stm
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: Guitar help please
Is there really no-one with the wit to manage it in Jersey ?
Ah, well, what can you expect from those crapauds ? ( It's a local word, meaning a small amphibian ) ( you should hear what they call us Guernesaise ).
Seriously, all the above advice is good.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitar help please
have a look at the kerrywhistles site - movie section...
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar help please
There are some good starts above. Also, Chris Smith, author of one of the books listed above, frequently posts on this site as coyotebanjo, and if you look under his profile, you will find some links to online stuff to help you.
When this subject came up before, I recommended that, as a start, you buy some of the tune books with guitar chords printed in them. While they are not always the best possible choices, they can at least start getting you headed in the right direction. But since some argued that was not a good approach, and would head you down some sort of "dark path" toward rotten accompaniment, I will not tell you that (oops, already did).
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar help please
Darnoc, not to impugn or belittle the recommendations you've been given, but keep in mind you don't _have_ to play DADGAD, or Double Drop D, or like a John Doyle-Donogh Hennessy-Michael O'Suillebhan mix.
Learn some basic 1-4-5, Mixolydian/Dorian chord patterns in standard tuning and just get the darn rhythm right. I love innovation and adventure in music as much as the next guy, but sometimes it's easy to overlook the virtues of simplicity.
Actually, a young friend of mine is trying to learn some guitar accompaniment -- on the advice of a mutual friend of ours who declared that there aren't enough _women_ guitarists playing trad music. She's been turning to me for the occasional suggestion or tip, and it's a good exercise for _me_ to strip away all of the layers and extol the basics.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by sts
Re: Guitar help please
I have to agree with sts. Standard tuning and standard chords make a good starting place and tend to give you a better understanding of what’s really going in musically when you hit those strings. AND it can sound perfectly cool. A couple of years ago, I was watching a video of Kevin Burke and Michael O’Domhnaill from their early post-Bothy days and I couldn’t help noticing that Michael played a lot in standard tuning using standard chords. It sounded great because he played with a precisely creative rhythm and he understood the tunes.
Bluegrass accompanists only need to know the *meter* of the tune. Irish accompanists need to know the *rhythm* of the tune and its natural dynamics.
I think you’d do well to find somebody who’s already competent with standard tuning/chording and help them learn how to collaborate with the melody players in communicating the tune.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar help please
Agree with sts and Bob himself that standard tuning can do a lot of good stuff--the other tunings can make some interesting colors available, but they are not necessary. There is more talk about chords than rhythm above, but remember, it is rhythm that is the bedrock, and keeping the pulse is essential--nice steady beat without a lot of flashy distracting stuff is best.
Best of luck with it, if you are like me, you will really enjoy accompanying this music.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by AlBrown