I have a question about concertina tunings (I'm a long, long-time lurker...)
About 15 years ago I bought a 30-button Anglo Stagi G/D concertina because I figured Irish music is mostly in those keys. I didn't have any concertina players to guide me, so that's what I did. Years later, I learned that Irish musicians usually use C/G and do cross fingering.
I'm now at the point where I'm ready to upgrade to a new concertina--one of those mid-range instruments. Since I'm no longer a spring chicken, I'm concerned about trying to learn new fingerings for a C/G and logic would seem to direct me towards getting another G/D instrument.
So my questions are as follows: Is there any reason for me to force myself to learn the new fingerings and switch to a C/G instrument? Is there something inherently superior to that fingering arrangement for Irish music? Can Irish music be played just as well on a G/D? (I've looked on Concertina.net for help on this question, but if it's there, I don't know where to find it.)
By the way, one of the concertina makers told me that it was his opinion that the Irish originally used C/G concertinas simply because the G/Ds were not available. He believes that had they been, the G/D would now be the instrument of choice.
As member Number 166 I think that makes you a seriously longtime lurker. Speaking as a '674' so to speak.
No doubt you will get advice from Dow and Phantom even if it conflicts - where are you guys?
Well sorry to disappoint you, Donough, but there will be no chance for a fun slag-fest from Dow and myself on this since the question doesn't relate to a brit-box. But Dow might be inclined to slag from the sidelines I suppose.
Anyway... I have no idea if the G/D system would be preferred if it had been widely available to Irish musicians or not. I have a friend who plays that system, or maybe it's D/A, but I'm not sure. I do notice she never joins in on the D dorian tunes though. The person to ask would be Gray Larson who I think might play that system. Gray had the good sense to switch from English to Anglo, but for some reason he chose some other tuning than the standard C/G. Gray's a nice fellow and I'm sure he would respond to an email. Hope that helps.
Hi Jrex58. How does it feel to come out of the closet?
I play C/G myself & have no experience of the G/D system so I can't offer any advice but your question makes me think of all the quite brilliant music some guys can produce from a single row Melodeon, with all it's limitataions.
There was one such player on RTE 'tother night, playing what can only be described as fantastic music (Slides) with Matt Crannitch.
So I reckon you should go for it with your G/D box.
Don't be a sheep, but strike out on your own, start a new trend & better still why not start making G/D boxes yourself.
I'd say this time next year, you could be a Millionaire!
Just think how the first player of a Concert pitched set of Uilleann Pipes must have felt!
That's one tough Stagi you've got there.
If you've been playing that type of concertina for 15 years and have a large number of tunes that you play well on it; if you're still learning more tunes and you're having a good time playing them with other musicians that are playing Irish traditional music, then I guess the only reason to switch would be to challenge your abilities further and access other styles of ornamentation on a more commonly keyed instrument.
If you're dissatisfied with how you sound now, then switch. You'll sure find plenty of recorded C/G anglo players to learn from.
For anyone still not convinced that 'Dow' should consider changing his Concertina for a more ITM friendly model, here's a recent photo of him, & his box, taken by photographer Henry Silberhorn: http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/dow_by_henrysilberhorn.html
I'd guess, Ptarmigan,
as far as body at a session is concerned, that it would affect the bottom end of someone who had to sit and play it for a few hours.
My impression is that Grey Larsen plays D/A because of the fine, rare old instrument in that pitch that he came across about 30 years ago. I have set next to him and it is a great box.
You can find tons of hot air about what tuning to play on Concertina.net. Try searching on "G/D" on the forums system. Or just ask again there for pointers to previous threads, some of the folks never tire of discussing these topics.
IMO the only real consideration is that books and classes or Irish on anglo all aim at C/G. If you play G/D you get to figure it out yourself, but many others have before now.
You should probably get your hands on a borrowed C/G and test it out to see how you'll adapt to the switch.
I've been playing the concertina for exactly one week, and already I cannot say enough good (and neither can my teacher) about the Morse Ceili concertina from The Button Box. http://www.buttonbox.com/morse.html
It is a beautiful thing to hold and behold; very light compared to the old models (I've never held a Stagi). So, that's the brand I recommend; you can get just about any system/setup you want from them. I got a C/G Wheatstone on the recommendation of many players.
I'm referring someone to this discussion who can tell you first-hand what it's like to go from G/D to C/G after learning thousands of tunes on G/D.
I'll start by saying you can play everything on a G/D that you can on a C/G. You can also do all the cross-fingering and same-direction scales you want on both instruments, you will be able to play someone elses C/G (albeit in a different key and ignoring differing layouts) so there is no real need to change.
I think of a G/D as a separate instrument - it sounds different and plays differently. The timbre of the instrument is the only difference - if you want a shrill instrument that will cut through, a C/G may be worth trying.
What was originally available at the time is only really relevant if you are looking at 20 key instruments. Once 30 plus keys were available, so were G/Ds, in fact you will find quite a lot of F# or Bb instruments being used by Irish players - either for the slightly lower and darker tone, or for playing along with pipers.
As far as personal choice goes, I try and play every G/D I get chance and have never played one that I would swap my Jeffries for - in fact, for Irish, I prefer the sound of cross-fingering D on the G row rather than playing on the D row.
Ptarmigan - Jones was working for wheatstone when the GERMAN concertina appeared (a 21 key with 1 accidental). Jones took this a step further with a 22 then a 26 key which he patented in 1884 as a fully chromatic ANGLO-GERMAN concertina.
All push-pulls seem to be known as anglos nowadays, although strictly speaking, the smaller versions should be called german concertinas. So in reality, Jones only extended the german concertina and started the name anglo.
It really depends on the playing style you use (would like to use).
If you prefer to play "in the rows", a G/D will serve you quite well. Remember that we are talking 30 button instruments here so you will have the accidentals to play other keys. Frank Edgely and most of the Concertina players of old play in the rows (the old folks usually only had 20 button tinas).
That said, Cross Fingering opens up a lot more options for playing a scale smoothly and lightning fast onamentation (think Noel Hill). This is best done on a C/G.
To make it more confusing. Frank Edgely plays his "in the rows" style primarily on the G row of a C/G and I've heard cross fingering on a G/D.
Have I confused you yet? Basically both are fine. You will be able to play all the tunes on either. The G/D is a lower pitched instrument and could possibly get lost in a loud session. That's my only beef with it. I've owned a G/D Morse and a C/G Morse. I kept the C/G. There's just more of them out there. In addition, I also have a C/G Stagi as backup. If anything happens that I need to send my Morse to be retuned or anything else, I still have an instrument that I can pick up instantly.
I'd say, if you have been playing on the C/G, stick with it for now. If you get obsessed some day, buy a G/D as an addition. In the end though, it's your decision.
Jrex
geoffwright's synopsis pretty well covers it from my experience. You just want to be certain that you get the same button layout (Wheatstone or Jeffries) that you have now if you want to keep it simple.
Excellent geoffwright, so I was correct, after all, to call it a 'German Concertina'.
Although, from what you say, I may well play a Jones myself, as mine only has 26 keys & was made around the turn of the century, at least the end plates were.
They say Jeffreys on them, but the straps join the box at a slightly crooked angle which makes me think that the rest of the instrument is probably a Wheatstone.
Must find out which one day.
I have played it with other Jeffreys & my boxe's reeds are definitely not as full toned & rich sounding as they were!
Do Wheatstone boxes tend to sound thinner than Jeffreys?
Having all that being said... one of the strangest things I've found about the C/G Anglo is that so much of what happens relies on the wee finger of your left hand. On a fiddle it comes into play on the odd high note, and it's useful for guitar and banjo too, but on the C/G it's playing one of the main low notes in the music. Meanwhile the wee finger of your right hand is on holiday.
(helping Dow here in building a case against Anglos
Aye Button, reminds me of the time I broke the Thumb of my Left Hand. Luckily, it is the only digit I don't use when playing my Anglo, although it did look a bit odd, what with the big plaster round it!
I'm sorry if I'm a little slow. I've been playing cross harp on the harmonica for Chicago Blues for four decades (but not very good). Still, it took me nearly a year to figure that you mean the same thing for playing cross on the concertina. Now, I have a new sound to use for torture on my teenagers.
Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I have a question about concertina tunings (I'm a long, long-time lurker...)
About 15 years ago I bought a 30-button Anglo Stagi G/D concertina because I figured Irish music is mostly in those keys. I didn't have any concertina players to guide me, so that's what I did. Years later, I learned that Irish musicians usually use C/G and do cross fingering.
I'm now at the point where I'm ready to upgrade to a new concertina--one of those mid-range instruments. Since I'm no longer a spring chicken, I'm concerned about trying to learn new fingerings for a C/G and logic would seem to direct me towards getting another G/D instrument.
So my questions are as follows: Is there any reason for me to force myself to learn the new fingerings and switch to a C/G instrument? Is there something inherently superior to that fingering arrangement for Irish music? Can Irish music be played just as well on a G/D? (I've looked on Concertina.net for help on this question, but if it's there, I don't know where to find it.)
By the way, one of the concertina makers told me that it was his opinion that the Irish originally used C/G concertinas simply because the G/Ds were not available. He believes that had they been, the G/D would now be the instrument of choice.
I'll give my sincere thanks in advance. JREX
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Jrex58
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
As member Number 166 I think that makes you a seriously longtime lurker. Speaking as a '674' so to speak.
No doubt you will get advice from Dow and Phantom even if it conflicts - where are you guys?
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Donough
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Well sorry to disappoint you, Donough, but there will be no chance for a fun slag-fest from Dow and myself on this since the question doesn't relate to a brit-box. But Dow might be inclined to slag from the sidelines I suppose.
Anyway... I have no idea if the G/D system would be preferred if it had been widely available to Irish musicians or not. I have a friend who plays that system, or maybe it's D/A, but I'm not sure. I do notice she never joins in on the D dorian tunes though. The person to ask would be Gray Larson who I think might play that system. Gray had the good sense to switch from English to Anglo, but for some reason he chose some other tuning than the standard C/G. Gray's a nice fellow and I'm sure he would respond to an email. Hope that helps.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Hi Jrex58. How does it feel to come out of the closet?
I play C/G myself & have no experience of the G/D system so I can't offer any advice but your question makes me think of all the quite brilliant music some guys can produce from a single row Melodeon, with all it's limitataions.
There was one such player on RTE 'tother night, playing what can only be described as fantastic music (Slides) with Matt Crannitch.
So I reckon you should go for it with your G/D box.
Don't be a sheep, but strike out on your own, start a new trend & better still why not start making G/D boxes yourself.
I'd say this time next year, you could be a Millionaire!
Just think how the first player of a Concert pitched set of Uilleann Pipes must have felt!
Good Luck
Oh, & regards to your brother - TREX
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
P.S. & just in case a slag-fest does develop, can I just get in first with a quick - Hurrah for the German-Box!
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
German-box... hmmm
doesn't quite have the charm of "brit-box" Would it be too rude to say "crout-box"?
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Sauer-box?
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Well, we're certainly not talking about the Chemnitzer-box!
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/german_box.html
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Breandan, did you know that - "George Jones is often credited as the inventor of the Anglo concertina."?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concertina
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Couple of dueling chemnitzers in this file.
http://home.mn.rr.com/ndband2/fourshar.mp3
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Very nice tune there Laitch, I can just imagine Jackie Daly & McGuire Brothers doing a nice job on that.
Not sure about the 'flatulence' in the background though?
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Jrex58
That's one tough Stagi you've got there.
If you've been playing that type of concertina for 15 years and have a large number of tunes that you play well on it; if you're still learning more tunes and you're having a good time playing them with other musicians that are playing Irish traditional music, then I guess the only reason to switch would be to challenge your abilities further and access other styles of ornamentation on a more commonly keyed instrument.
If you're dissatisfied with how you sound now, then switch. You'll sure find plenty of recorded C/G anglo players to learn from.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I suspect the culprit is that dude in the back left hand corner with the bendy Didge?
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/chemnitzer.html
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Bendy Didge
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Well, anyway, it looks like almost everyone is having a good time. Wrangling a bendy didge can't be easy though.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
For anyone still not convinced that 'Dow' should consider changing his Concertina for a more ITM friendly model, here's a recent photo of him, & his box, taken by photographer Henry Silberhorn:
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/dow_by_henrysilberhorn.html
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
It has to be said Laitch, that Bendy Didge certainly does give a great bottom end to the music.
I wonder how it would fit in to an ITM session, to give it body?
With that beauty barking out the rhythm, ye olde Bodhrans would surely, finally, be redundant - awwwwwwww.....
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I'd guess, Ptarmigan,
as far as body at a session is concerned, that it would affect the bottom end of someone who had to sit and play it for a few hours.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Jrex,
My impression is that Grey Larsen plays D/A because of the fine, rare old instrument in that pitch that he came across about 30 years ago. I have set next to him and it is a great box.
You can find tons of hot air about what tuning to play on Concertina.net. Try searching on "G/D" on the forums system. Or just ask again there for pointers to previous threads, some of the folks never tire of discussing these topics.
IMO the only real consideration is that books and classes or Irish on anglo all aim at C/G. If you play G/D you get to figure it out yourself, but many others have before now.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by KenC
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
You should probably get your hands on a borrowed C/G and test it out to see how you'll adapt to the switch.
I've been playing the concertina for exactly one week, and already I cannot say enough good (and neither can my teacher) about the Morse Ceili concertina from The Button Box.
http://www.buttonbox.com/morse.html
It is a beautiful thing to hold and behold; very light compared to the old models (I've never held a Stagi). So, that's the brand I recommend; you can get just about any system/setup you want from them. I got a C/G Wheatstone on the recommendation of many players.
I'm referring someone to this discussion who can tell you first-hand what it's like to go from G/D to C/G after learning thousands of tunes on G/D.
Good Luck!
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by grymater
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I'll start by saying you can play everything on a G/D that you can on a C/G. You can also do all the cross-fingering and same-direction scales you want on both instruments, you will be able to play someone elses C/G (albeit in a different key and ignoring differing layouts) so there is no real need to change.
I think of a G/D as a separate instrument - it sounds different and plays differently. The timbre of the instrument is the only difference - if you want a shrill instrument that will cut through, a C/G may be worth trying.
What was originally available at the time is only really relevant if you are looking at 20 key instruments. Once 30 plus keys were available, so were G/Ds, in fact you will find quite a lot of F# or Bb instruments being used by Irish players - either for the slightly lower and darker tone, or for playing along with pipers.
As far as personal choice goes, I try and play every G/D I get chance and have never played one that I would swap my Jeffries for - in fact, for Irish, I prefer the sound of cross-fingering D on the G row rather than playing on the D row.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Jones Anglo-German Concertina
Ptarmigan - Jones was working for wheatstone when the GERMAN concertina appeared (a 21 key with 1 accidental). Jones took this a step further with a 22 then a 26 key which he patented in 1884 as a fully chromatic ANGLO-GERMAN concertina.
All push-pulls seem to be known as anglos nowadays, although strictly speaking, the smaller versions should be called german concertinas. So in reality, Jones only extended the german concertina and started the name anglo.
see full story at
http://www.concertina.com/jones/recollections/
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I'll jump in here.
It really depends on the playing style you use (would like to use).
If you prefer to play "in the rows", a G/D will serve you quite well. Remember that we are talking 30 button instruments here so you will have the accidentals to play other keys. Frank Edgely and most of the Concertina players of old play in the rows (the old folks usually only had 20 button tinas).
That said, Cross Fingering opens up a lot more options for playing a scale smoothly and lightning fast onamentation (think Noel Hill). This is best done on a C/G.
To make it more confusing. Frank Edgely plays his "in the rows" style primarily on the G row of a C/G and I've heard cross fingering on a G/D.
Have I confused you yet? Basically both are fine. You will be able to play all the tunes on either. The G/D is a lower pitched instrument and could possibly get lost in a loud session. That's my only beef with it. I've owned a G/D Morse and a C/G Morse. I kept the C/G. There's just more of them out there. In addition, I also have a C/G Stagi as backup. If anything happens that I need to send my Morse to be retuned or anything else, I still have an instrument that I can pick up instantly.
I'd say, if you have been playing on the C/G, stick with it for now. If you get obsessed some day, buy a G/D as an addition. In the end though, it's your decision.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ashkettle
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Bah, just noticed you started with a G/D. Reverse that and get a G/D if that's what you know and have a backup for.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ashkettle
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Jrex
geoffwright's synopsis pretty well covers it from my experience. You just want to be certain that you get the same button layout (Wheatstone or Jeffries) that you have now if you want to keep it simple.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by ∅
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Excellent geoffwright, so I was correct, after all, to call it a 'German Concertina'.
Although, from what you say, I may well play a Jones myself, as mine only has 26 keys & was made around the turn of the century, at least the end plates were.
They say Jeffreys on them, but the straps join the box at a slightly crooked angle which makes me think that the rest of the instrument is probably a Wheatstone.
Must find out which one day.
I have played it with other Jeffreys & my boxe's reeds are definitely not as full toned & rich sounding as they were!
Do Wheatstone boxes tend to sound thinner than Jeffreys?
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Having all that being said... one of the strangest things I've found about the C/G Anglo is that so much of what happens relies on the wee finger of your left hand. On a fiddle it comes into play on the odd high note, and it's useful for guitar and banjo too, but on the C/G it's playing one of the main low notes in the music. Meanwhile the wee finger of your right hand is on holiday.
(helping Dow here in building a case against Anglos
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
Aye Button, reminds me of the time I broke the Thumb of my Left Hand. Luckily, it is the only digit I don't use when playing my Anglo, although it did look a bit odd, what with the big plaster round it!
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Concertina Question G/D vs. C/G
I'm sorry if I'm a little slow. I've been playing cross harp on the harmonica for Chicago Blues for four decades (but not very good). Still, it took me nearly a year to figure that you mean the same thing for playing cross on the concertina. Now, I have a new sound to use for torture on my teenagers.
Thanks.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by Loisen