In my experience in the Midwest US, I have always considered that there are at least two forms of Irish or Irish-American music. There is trad, and there is the other, variously described as pub music, ballad, rebel, come-all-ye and other such appellations. There has often been divisiveness between the groups of people that play the different forms or styles of Irish music. There has also been camaraderie and mutual support. Sometimes, pub owners support one form, sometimes both.
(Concerning the ballad-band form, you know what I am talking about here...bands singing songs inspired by the Clancy Brothers, Paddy Reilly, the Irish Rovers, Wolfe Tones and other such bands/singers. Wild Rover, Danny Boy, the Four Green Fields, the Unicorn Song, Johnson’s Motor Car, Molly Malone, the Irish Rover.)
I think the experience is different within Ireland, and maybe this is mostly an American thing, but what is your experience in your community or in the various communities in which you have lived? How has the interplay between these forms influenced you over the years? Is there a division in your experience? Or have the two forms merged or have they never separated?
Around here in RI, we have mostly trad tune-based sessions. There is one session that is led by a singer on alternate weeks, but I would call him a trad singer more than someone who sings the more popular Irish songs. Call it more of a song-based trad session than a sing-along. That being said, most of us are willing to take a break from the tunes, and play one of the old songs to make a patron happy.
Now, paying gigs are a different matter, and that is where you will find what you call the ballad-band form, especially as March approaches, you will find many of us sessioneers out there in various collections of players with various names (being in a couple different bands is not uncommon), cranking out the old sing-along tunes (but we draw the line with the Unicorn Song--one must have some standards beyond which they will not pass, even for money).
Not an expressly American thing, but it is very popular here...way more than it deserves to be in this sullen, misanthropic instrumentalist's considered opinion.
To reframe the question slightly, I don't mean to stir up arguments about sessions, singing sessions, songs in sessions and the like. This is not a question specifically about sessions.
I once played in a over-the-hill punk band whose leader refused to sing the Unicorn Song. There are some depths that even a Shane MacGowan admirer won't sink to. ;>}
In my corner of the U.S., it seems that the bar-ballad types tend to form bands, while the tune-session types do sessions, mostly.
A while ago (last March 17, I believe) I submitted a jig titled “The Monoceros”, which is my admittedly crude setting of The Unicorn in 6/8. Leave it to Ceolachan to spot it! The sick thing is that it’s been added to 4 tunebooks. Now, who the heck would do something like that? Hope they’re not playing it in sessions.
We have a pub here in Calgary called "The Unicorn" owned, I think, by the Irish Rovers. Irish music and song is generally not very well known here, and punters do love to hear the stereotype old favourites that are listed above because they're not jaded by them.
While I have no love at all for the Unicorn, I recently was present when a local singer sang it for a group of young kids in a children's hospital. The kids - some terminally ill - smiled and clapped with delight. It earned its keep that night.
I sometimes wonder if we write off the comeallyas because they're not cool enough for us - just like so many kids when I was growing up wrote off the traditional tunes as diddly-dee for old folks until Planxty and Horslips came along.
Still, I cringe along with the best of them whenever there's a request for Molly Malone or the Wild Rover.
While I roll my eyes skyward whenever anyone mentions the 'McIrish" (to plagarize from JohnDoyleJr) songs-Wild Rover, Danny Boy, other such evil things-I think that, song-wise, there's a factor the Irish fail to get, and that Americans, Scots, Newfoundlanders and others get: It's fun to sing, and it's fun to sing harmony, and it's fun to sing songs that aren't sad ballads. I know that this will incite a bunch of angry posters yelling at me for saying that, but the fact remains that I, and most 'average joe' listeners, will take a good rebel song or sea shanty over an a capella, Gaelic ballad sung by a single female singer any day.
There's a local band here in SF that describes themselves on their CD Baby page as "Fast, furious Celtic music in the vein of Lunasa and the Bothy Band with vocals in the tradition of the Clancy Brothers."
Didn't the Irish Rovers start out in Calgary.
Will Millar got his start singing callipso around the same time as Joanie Mitchell and her baritone uke.
A baritone uke would have meant something altogether different in Edmonton.
In my experience there is a great divide between the PubSong folks and trad music, and it's unfortunate. Most of the time when the song folks show up at sessions, they seem to A) feel frustrated at all the tunes, and B) act as if they know the tunes and bash away (very loudly and out of time) with the tunes.
Conversely, most of the traddies know the songs but don't want to admit it. <GG> If the singer is good and knows something of the tunes side, the players often come up with wonderful accompaniment and ornamentation for the songs.
In the Louisville crowd the session usually incorporates some fine songs, but they are much more interesting songs than those tired McIrish things.
I wanted to know where a lot of that stuff came from, and I was poking around to find out. It seems that a lot of that material has come from the 19th-century minstrelsy and on into the Vaudeville era. Many of the songs most familiar to Americans were written in the early 20th century by crafters of popular songs in the Tin Pan Alley song mills.
I enjoy songs in a session, and the opportunity to play to support a song. I do wish that those who 'live' in the world of the PubSongs would learn more about the traditional tunes, and dive deeper into the older song traditions, too. There are a lot of great songs to be sung. An uncomfortable division between us is unfortunate.
Dominic Behan (Brendan's little brother), a singer of traditional songs and recanter of Irish history, used the term "shamrockery" for McIrish/Pubsongs/etc.
I looked carefully but could see no reference to the Fields of Athenwhatsit.......somebody ( from Joe Public ) seems to request it at almost everyone of our sessions.....
A lot of Irish ( first or second generation immigrant ) seem to prefer the shamrockery to the tunes. It's only relevant when it's a paid gig and you're entertaining the punters. Watch out for St Pat's Day !
Much as the purist in me likes to despise the mcIrish songs, there should be a place for tunes that everyone knows and can sing together. These chestnuts are not limited to the mcIrish, there are a bunch of gospel songs, American folk songs and others (think "Will the Circle be Unbroken," or "Darling Clemetine" or "Tom Dooley."). Great music. No. But they can be fun to play with, help shy folks get involved, allow more creative ones to improvise and generally get participatory music out of the circle of cognocenti and back to the people.
Amen and again amen to KateG. If we get too stuffy about "dingleberry folk songs", as Arlo Guthrie once called them, we run the risk of creating animosity between people who have a lot in common and should be friends or, at least, allies.
I love the tin-pan ally stuff. A good friend turned me on to the joys of classic composers like the Yellen-Ager team with uke arrangements by the enigmatic May Breen Singh. Egyptian Ella. Ukulele Lady. I’m Going to Give it to Mary with Love. The whole “Oirish” genre. Tunes like “If I Knocked the “L” out of Kelly (It Would Still Be Kelly to Me).
Spent a lot of time combing antique stores for vintage sheet music, there’s tons of it, usually available for pennies. It’s not traditional Irish dance music, no. But man is it charming and fun.
For a lot of Americans, “Finnegan‘s Wake” is pure drop trad. Maybe we should look at it as the gateway drug to the stronger stuff.
Hey, guys, lets not go totally overboard trashing the American Irish singalong tradition. Yes, it is something that cropped up after the emigrants came to the new land, but they and their decendents have been doing it now for over a century, and in fact, along the way they have lent a lot of songs to the wider American tradition. If a coherent group of people have a form of music that they have enjoyed and nurtured for decades, I would call that a tradition. I have many a friend who consider those singalongs one of their most enjoyable connections to their heritage. And if an old lady in a nursing home wants to hear "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," and tears up when you play it, it doesn't matter that it was a music hall tune inspired by true Irish songs--to her it is special. Like I said above, I draw the line at things like the Unicorn Song, but if someone wants to hear the Wild Colonial Boy, Whiskey in the Jar or Molly Malone, I will sing it for them. I wouldn't make it my steady diet, but it is part of an emigrant tradition that deserves a certain amount of respect.
For the sake of clarity, some distinction has to be made between "Irish traditional songs" (I assume sean nos and similar music), Irish folk songs ("Brennan on the Moor" and other Clancy Bros. inspired stuff), Irish rebellion songs (similar to Irish folk nowadays), Irish songs sung by immigrants, songs made up by immigrants (see Mick Moloney at http://www.mickmoloney.com/articles/hitchner.html), later second/third generation songs in America ("When Irish Eyes are Smiling"), and "Danny Boy" which is in a category of its own.
All of these songs, if done well, are fun to sing and should not be the subject of elitist twaddle. In America, at least, they represent the views of the Diaspora and reflect the experiences and relationship with Ireland that each generation has or had. My grandmother taught me to sing all of the music hall songs (As an aside, Irish composers had a lot to do with the evolution of the musical and with the popularity of Tin Pan Alley early on) and I later learned Irish folk songs in the '60s and ITM later than that. This is the natural progression of most people my age (60+) since ITM was not available until 40 years ago in the states on a broad basis.
There are a lot of very interesting (and fun to sing) songs in that evolution of 150+ years of exile some of which are in danger of being lost. Of course there is a lot of crap in the process, but there are plenty of jewels too. All you have to do is look.
So, in a sense, "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" , written for a musical about Ireland in 1912 by descendants of Irish immigrants, is a "true Irish song" since it is in the tradition of sentimental (about leaving and losing Ireland) Irish songs. The fact that it made money and was commercial is a byproduct of the American musical publishing system.
Well said Mike.
The fact is that there is an Irish-American singing tradition, and an ITM session tradition, and they are different traditions. While we should understand that the emigrant's traditions diverged from the traditions of those who stayed behind, one tradition is not necessarily superior to the other.
I think, in general, session musicians sometimes have a love/hate relationship with popularity--they tend to equate commercial success with selling out, which might be part of this issue, since here in New England, people are more likely to pay a band to play the singalong stuff than the tunes.
Well said, AlBrown both about the various traditions, and about the love/hate relationship with popularity. That one's not limited to session musicians, it seems to crop up in virtually any music/art form. There is a real tendency to brand any artist who reaches beyond the small circle of officianados and appeals to a wider audience as "selling out," especially if they GASP do so by being innovative and straying from the straight and narrow of their tradition.
One thing I enjoy about this conversation is the number of terms used in describing the singing tradition. Mike's use of the term "music hall songs" is a good one, and one with historical weight.
I want to talk about a few things here, but first off, I object to the idea that all trad musicians are playing trad because they think it is cool to be unpopular. How many people would really object to being paid good money to play music that they enjoy playing?
Also, from a very general perspective, it just comes down to your taste in music. Superiority is subjective. It's music, right? People like what they like and dislike what does not suit them. So people have the right to dislike either tradition in general. Eliticism does not have to come into it. Playing the elite card is just one way of expressing an opinion.
Also, concerning Kate's last point here, one person's "innovation" can be another person's "watering down".
The Unicorn song IS a kids song, written by American Shel Silverstein (I am pretty sure) who has also written a lot of kids books. Unfortunately, in America, the guy who sung it on the 45RPM record that made it a best seller just happened to be Irish, and thus the myth was born that this was an Irish song.
As we discuss this, I can't help thinking of Robbie O'Connell's wonderful song about his early days singing in America, with the chorus "Your'e not Irish, you can't be Irish, you don't sing Danny Boy--or Tura Lura Lura or even Irish Eyes!"
Ever have someone come up to your session and ask you to stop what you are doing and play something Irish? A friend of mine had a stage occurrence when someone came up and said "Could you stop playing that jazzy hip-hop stuff and play some irish music?"
Jode, as you have experienced, that happens all too often at the Wednesday evening session. There are successful ways to deflect such requests and there are very successful ways to get drunk punters downright angry. I tend to be in the "keep my head low and get playing another tune set and maybe they'll go away" crowd, and there are others who like to string them along. A polite "we really don't do much singing" or "we don't know that" goes a lot farther towards keeping the peace.
Dealing with the same situation when playing a gig with my band. You know the type of stuff that my band does: we mix up the traditional tunes with some of the typical pub songs, and stuff that we just plain enjoy doing. It's a bit, er, frustrating to finish the obligatory "Whiskey in the Jar", only to be assaulted by someone telling us "What kind of Irish band are you if you don't do [fill in with "Danny Boy", "Fields of Athenry", etc. ad nauseum]?"
Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
In my experience in the Midwest US, I have always considered that there are at least two forms of Irish or Irish-American music. There is trad, and there is the other, variously described as pub music, ballad, rebel, come-all-ye and other such appellations. There has often been divisiveness between the groups of people that play the different forms or styles of Irish music. There has also been camaraderie and mutual support. Sometimes, pub owners support one form, sometimes both.
(Concerning the ballad-band form, you know what I am talking about here...bands singing songs inspired by the Clancy Brothers, Paddy Reilly, the Irish Rovers, Wolfe Tones and other such bands/singers. Wild Rover, Danny Boy, the Four Green Fields, the Unicorn Song, Johnson’s Motor Car, Molly Malone, the Irish Rover.)
I think the experience is different within Ireland, and maybe this is mostly an American thing, but what is your experience in your community or in the various communities in which you have lived? How has the interplay between these forms influenced you over the years? Is there a division in your experience? Or have the two forms merged or have they never separated?
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Jode
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Around here in RI, we have mostly trad tune-based sessions. There is one session that is led by a singer on alternate weeks, but I would call him a trad singer more than someone who sings the more popular Irish songs. Call it more of a song-based trad session than a sing-along. That being said, most of us are willing to take a break from the tunes, and play one of the old songs to make a patron happy.
Now, paying gigs are a different matter, and that is where you will find what you call the ballad-band form, especially as March approaches, you will find many of us sessioneers out there in various collections of players with various names (being in a couple different bands is not uncommon), cranking out the old sing-along tunes (but we draw the line with the Unicorn Song--one must have some standards beyond which they will not pass, even for money).
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Not an expressly American thing, but it is very popular here...way more than it deserves to be in this sullen, misanthropic instrumentalist's considered opinion.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Hanley
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
To reframe the question slightly, I don't mean to stir up arguments about sessions, singing sessions, songs in sessions and the like. This is not a question specifically about sessions.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Jode
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
I once played in a over-the-hill punk band whose leader refused to sing the Unicorn Song. There are some depths that even a Shane MacGowan admirer won't sink to. ;>}
In my corner of the U.S., it seems that the bar-ballad types tend to form bands, while the tune-session types do sessions, mostly.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
A while ago (last March 17, I believe) I submitted a jig titled “The Monoceros”, which is my admittedly crude setting of The Unicorn in 6/8. Leave it to Ceolachan to spot it! The sick thing is that it’s been added to 4 tunebooks. Now, who the heck would do something like that? Hope they’re not playing it in sessions.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
We have a pub here in Calgary called "The Unicorn" owned, I think, by the Irish Rovers. Irish music and song is generally not very well known here, and punters do love to hear the stereotype old favourites that are listed above because they're not jaded by them.
While I have no love at all for the Unicorn, I recently was present when a local singer sang it for a group of young kids in a children's hospital. The kids - some terminally ill - smiled and clapped with delight. It earned its keep that night.
I sometimes wonder if we write off the comeallyas because they're not cool enough for us - just like so many kids when I was growing up wrote off the traditional tunes as diddly-dee for old folks until Planxty and Horslips came along.
Still, I cringe along with the best of them whenever there's a request for Molly Malone or the Wild Rover.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by grego
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
While I roll my eyes skyward whenever anyone mentions the 'McIrish" (to plagarize from JohnDoyleJr) songs-Wild Rover, Danny Boy, other such evil things-I think that, song-wise, there's a factor the Irish fail to get, and that Americans, Scots, Newfoundlanders and others get: It's fun to sing, and it's fun to sing harmony, and it's fun to sing songs that aren't sad ballads. I know that this will incite a bunch of angry posters yelling at me for saying that, but the fact remains that I, and most 'average joe' listeners, will take a good rebel song or sea shanty over an a capella, Gaelic ballad sung by a single female singer any day.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
There's a local band here in SF that describes themselves on their CD Baby page as "Fast, furious Celtic music in the vein of Lunasa and the Bothy Band with vocals in the tradition of the Clancy Brothers."
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
That would be four guys singing in unison? That's what I remember about the Clancys.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Well, ok... but try to imagine fusing that with the Bothy Band and Lunasa.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Didn't the Irish Rovers start out in Calgary.
Will Millar got his start singing callipso around the same time as Joanie Mitchell and her baritone uke.
A baritone uke would have meant something altogether different in Edmonton.
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
"Well, ok... but try to imagine fusing that with the Bothy Band and Lunasa."
Maybe as part of a variety show with jugglers and a ventriloquist in between?
# Posted on January 30th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
In my experience there is a great divide between the PubSong folks and trad music, and it's unfortunate. Most of the time when the song folks show up at sessions, they seem to A) feel frustrated at all the tunes, and B) act as if they know the tunes and bash away (very loudly and out of time) with the tunes.
Conversely, most of the traddies know the songs but don't want to admit it. <GG> If the singer is good and knows something of the tunes side, the players often come up with wonderful accompaniment and ornamentation for the songs.
In the Louisville crowd the session usually incorporates some fine songs, but they are much more interesting songs than those tired McIrish things.
I wanted to know where a lot of that stuff came from, and I was poking around to find out. It seems that a lot of that material has come from the 19th-century minstrelsy and on into the Vaudeville era. Many of the songs most familiar to Americans were written in the early 20th century by crafters of popular songs in the Tin Pan Alley song mills.
I enjoy songs in a session, and the opportunity to play to support a song. I do wish that those who 'live' in the world of the PubSongs would learn more about the traditional tunes, and dive deeper into the older song traditions, too. There are a lot of great songs to be sung. An uncomfortable division between us is unfortunate.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by stv culchie
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Dominic Behan (Brendan's little brother), a singer of traditional songs and recanter of Irish history, used the term "shamrockery" for McIrish/Pubsongs/etc.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Paddywhackery was Myles na Gopaleen's term for it.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
I looked carefully but could see no reference to the Fields of Athenwhatsit.......somebody ( from Joe Public ) seems to request it at almost everyone of our sessions.....
A lot of Irish ( first or second generation immigrant ) seem to prefer the shamrockery to the tunes. It's only relevant when it's a paid gig and you're entertaining the punters. Watch out for St Pat's Day !
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Much as the purist in me likes to despise the mcIrish songs, there should be a place for tunes that everyone knows and can sing together. These chestnuts are not limited to the mcIrish, there are a bunch of gospel songs, American folk songs and others (think "Will the Circle be Unbroken," or "Darling Clemetine" or "Tom Dooley."). Great music. No. But they can be fun to play with, help shy folks get involved, allow more creative ones to improvise and generally get participatory music out of the circle of cognocenti and back to the people.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by KateG
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Amen and again amen to KateG. If we get too stuffy about "dingleberry folk songs", as Arlo Guthrie once called them, we run the risk of creating animosity between people who have a lot in common and should be friends or, at least, allies.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
“Great music. No.”
Or maybe it is. For half a gazillion people, you could trace a line directly from Tom Dooley to ITM or some other certified authentic trad music.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
I love the tin-pan ally stuff. A good friend turned me on to the joys of classic composers like the Yellen-Ager team with uke arrangements by the enigmatic May Breen Singh. Egyptian Ella. Ukulele Lady. I’m Going to Give it to Mary with Love. The whole “Oirish” genre. Tunes like “If I Knocked the “L” out of Kelly (It Would Still Be Kelly to Me).
http://turtleservices.com/kelly.htm
Spent a lot of time combing antique stores for vintage sheet music, there’s tons of it, usually available for pennies. It’s not traditional Irish dance music, no. But man is it charming and fun.
For a lot of Americans, “Finnegan‘s Wake” is pure drop trad. Maybe we should look at it as the gateway drug to the stronger stuff.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by fidkid
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Hey, guys, lets not go totally overboard trashing the American Irish singalong tradition. Yes, it is something that cropped up after the emigrants came to the new land, but they and their decendents have been doing it now for over a century, and in fact, along the way they have lent a lot of songs to the wider American tradition. If a coherent group of people have a form of music that they have enjoyed and nurtured for decades, I would call that a tradition. I have many a friend who consider those singalongs one of their most enjoyable connections to their heritage. And if an old lady in a nursing home wants to hear "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," and tears up when you play it, it doesn't matter that it was a music hall tune inspired by true Irish songs--to her it is special. Like I said above, I draw the line at things like the Unicorn Song, but if someone wants to hear the Wild Colonial Boy, Whiskey in the Jar or Molly Malone, I will sing it for them. I wouldn't make it my steady diet, but it is part of an emigrant tradition that deserves a certain amount of respect.
# Posted on January 31st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
For the sake of clarity, some distinction has to be made between "Irish traditional songs" (I assume sean nos and similar music), Irish folk songs ("Brennan on the Moor" and other Clancy Bros. inspired stuff), Irish rebellion songs (similar to Irish folk nowadays), Irish songs sung by immigrants, songs made up by immigrants (see Mick Moloney at http://www.mickmoloney.com/articles/hitchner.html), later second/third generation songs in America ("When Irish Eyes are Smiling"), and "Danny Boy" which is in a category of its own.
All of these songs, if done well, are fun to sing and should not be the subject of elitist twaddle. In America, at least, they represent the views of the Diaspora and reflect the experiences and relationship with Ireland that each generation has or had. My grandmother taught me to sing all of the music hall songs (As an aside, Irish composers had a lot to do with the evolution of the musical and with the popularity of Tin Pan Alley early on) and I later learned Irish folk songs in the '60s and ITM later than that. This is the natural progression of most people my age (60+) since ITM was not available until 40 years ago in the states on a broad basis.
There are a lot of very interesting (and fun to sing) songs in that evolution of 150+ years of exile some of which are in danger of being lost. Of course there is a lot of crap in the process, but there are plenty of jewels too. All you have to do is look.
So, in a sense, "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" , written for a musical about Ireland in 1912 by descendants of Irish immigrants, is a "true Irish song" since it is in the tradition of sentimental (about leaving and losing Ireland) Irish songs. The fact that it made money and was commercial is a byproduct of the American musical publishing system.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/dec05/triplets.html
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Well said Mike.
The fact is that there is an Irish-American singing tradition, and an ITM session tradition, and they are different traditions. While we should understand that the emigrant's traditions diverged from the traditions of those who stayed behind, one tradition is not necessarily superior to the other.
I think, in general, session musicians sometimes have a love/hate relationship with popularity--they tend to equate commercial success with selling out, which might be part of this issue, since here in New England, people are more likely to pay a band to play the singalong stuff than the tunes.
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Well said, AlBrown both about the various traditions, and about the love/hate relationship with popularity. That one's not limited to session musicians, it seems to crop up in virtually any music/art form. There is a real tendency to brand any artist who reaches beyond the small circle of officianados and appeals to a wider audience as "selling out," especially if they GASP do so by being innovative and straying from the straight and narrow of their tradition.
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by KateG
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Too much to say...
One thing I enjoy about this conversation is the number of terms used in describing the singing tradition. Mike's use of the term "music hall songs" is a good one, and one with historical weight.
I want to talk about a few things here, but first off, I object to the idea that all trad musicians are playing trad because they think it is cool to be unpopular. How many people would really object to being paid good money to play music that they enjoy playing?
Also, from a very general perspective, it just comes down to your taste in music. Superiority is subjective. It's music, right? People like what they like and dislike what does not suit them. So people have the right to dislike either tradition in general. Eliticism does not have to come into it. Playing the elite card is just one way of expressing an opinion.
Also, concerning Kate's last point here, one person's "innovation" can be another person's "watering down".
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by Jode
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Oh dear! I always thought the Unicorn song was a children's song. So in this context I just had to google... bad idea, eh :D
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by Tirno
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
The Unicorn song IS a kids song, written by American Shel Silverstein (I am pretty sure) who has also written a lot of kids books. Unfortunately, in America, the guy who sung it on the 45RPM record that made it a best seller just happened to be Irish, and thus the myth was born that this was an Irish song.
As we discuss this, I can't help thinking of Robbie O'Connell's wonderful song about his early days singing in America, with the chorus "Your'e not Irish, you can't be Irish, you don't sing Danny Boy--or Tura Lura Lura or even Irish Eyes!"
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Ever have someone come up to your session and ask you to stop what you are doing and play something Irish? A friend of mine had a stage occurrence when someone came up and said "Could you stop playing that jazzy hip-hop stuff and play some irish music?"
# Posted on February 1st 2006 by Jode
Re: Trad vs. Come-all-ye: an American Experience?
Jode, as you have experienced, that happens all too often at the Wednesday evening session. There are successful ways to deflect such requests and there are very successful ways to get drunk punters downright angry. I tend to be in the "keep my head low and get playing another tune set and maybe they'll go away" crowd, and there are others who like to string them along. A polite "we really don't do much singing" or "we don't know that" goes a lot farther towards keeping the peace.
Dealing with the same situation when playing a gig with my band. You know the type of stuff that my band does: we mix up the traditional tunes with some of the typical pub songs, and stuff that we just plain enjoy doing. It's a bit, er, frustrating to finish the obligatory "Whiskey in the Jar", only to be assaulted by someone telling us "What kind of Irish band are you if you don't do [fill in with "Danny Boy", "Fields of Athenry", etc. ad nauseum]?"
# Posted on March 7th 2006 by juniper