Howdy. Just a quick question, has anyone had a good experience with a hurly gurly at a session? There´s a guy who plays one in the session that I go to on a regular basis. Granted, I´m not against the instrument as a whole, but this fellow has a habit of playing in a key that no one can play in (something like F#). I´m also not saying that he is the ideal session member, he happens to play the triangle too. The people at the session are really nice and friendly and so no one says anything about it to him, but the other night he played for about 20 minutes and in a two hour session this can really be a big drag. If anyone can relate something that might change my mind about the value of the hurly gurly in a session, please do so. If not, and you hate it too, please relate that as well. Thanks,
I love the sound of the "hurdy gurdy" (I think that's correct, although it might be named after the English phrase "hurly-burly") but I agree it's not ideal in a session if the player only plays in one key. I always thought they were chromatic, but I'm probably wrong.
I've never really heard trad Irish tunes played on one, except for a few Andy Irvine numbers - to me they're for playing old French tunes (Breton, Oc, Provencal) and for accompanying songs but more in a solo than group setting. Maybe you should explain to your HG player that it's a bit selfish to spend 20 minutes on a solo set as even most singers would consider this over-long.
Well. Alex forgot to mention the worst parts of it: a) he spends the 20 first minutes of the session tuning the fe****g instrument; b) he doesn't play any tradtional tune, so no one can join in; and c) he plays the same 3 or 4 tunes week after week. Last night I found myself humming one of the bloody tunes he plays over and over.
Conan, I'm not sure whether he's selfish or not. I've been sharing sessions with him for the last 3 years and I believe he's this kind of guy who likes to atract other people's attention. He's originally a percusionist and he's been always playing a very loud bodhran, triangles, tambourines and other beasts that make you turn your head to see what's going on. Now it's hurdy gurdy's time.
Sorry hate the hurdy gurdy - anytime - dont care if its playing french or bloody spanish - just dont care. Its not a nice or pretty sound and if one was played in a session I went to, I'd probably never go again!
Is Hurly Gurly a deliberate perjorative sexist mis-spelling?
I have also suffered from one in a session though I like the medieval vibe generally, used a lot in Breton music. The trouble is they turn a wheel-bow so tend to keep turning the handle between tunes to keep momentum going and produce a continous drone. Pipers stop and they have to pump it up a bit, I can imagine the response if I kept noodling away on the fiddle between tunes before launching into another masterpiece.
Good Lord Toni and Alex, I feel for the both of you. I have no simple solution other than a really strong and destructive act of violence.
Since that's not an option you are left with the utterly painful task of talking to him. The problem is that none of you wants to hurt the guy's feelings. I guess that makes you human. You can't tell someone to stop doing what they love without hurting them.
Sometimes hinting around has a worse cumulative effect than the old direct approach but at least you won't have to gather enough courage to come right out and say it.
I would be the worst person to tell him to cease and desist. I might do something evil anyway. I might ask him if he could tune the instrument so he could join the session. When he says 'I am in tune' or 'I am in the Session' - just look at him and shrug.
Last point - It never worked well for me so good luck.
You can tune a Hurdy Gurdy anywhere from E to A but G is the common tuning. Maybe he doesn't know that he's a half step flat - or maybe he's just a schmuck. Here's link to Anne Dodson & Matt Szostak playing "Open the Door" an old Sean Nos piece using voice & hurdy gurdy. http://www.faucher.net/hurdygurdy/Openthedoor.mp3
It's one of the rare examples of good hurdy gurdy playing, I like just about everything I've heard Matt do on the hurdy gurdy. I'll admit it though - most hurdy gurdy players I've heard are not the best musicians.
Having the wrong instrument and tunes for a particular group is an age-old problem. The only way to deal
with it is to explain to the person - away from the rest of the group - that this is an Irish music session, and
that the hurdy gurdy is not a traditional Irish instrument. You should invite the person to bring a traditional
Irish instrument to learn, and to learn traditional Irish tunes. If this person insists on playing the hurdy gurdy,
then I would suggest finding a local medieval and Boroque group of musicians, and telling him about the
group. I'm sure he would be happier in his own genre. If he's a beginner, he just may not know what he is
looking for.
If he doesn't respond to that kind of suggestion, then he's probably evil, and I don't know how you should
deal with him. Maybe just start playing the session somewhere else, and don't tell him where it is, or simply
tell him he's not welcome. If he keeps showing up with the hurdy-gurdy, have a local judge issue a
restraining order... Or, if he just wants to attract attention, suggest that he learn the uilleann pipes, but maybe
the restraining order would be better.
Anyway, good luck, and please don't take me too seriously...
Isn't this the instrument the Krishna people always use when they do their chanting thing? I never imagined the beast could show up in a session. Good lord. If ever there were a use for a flame thrower, this would seem to be the occassion.
heeheehee, Brad..."maybe he's just a schmuck"! I'm not sure I even know what a hurdy-gurdy looks like, and hope I never find out. It sounds a bit like a little miniature pipe organ we had at the Cathedral.
I like Conán's suggestion of Irish traditional mime. I assume there's no session leader, Toni and Alex? If not, it may be a "take him aside and have a quiet word" time. If everybody does this (a la Brad's story about that poor teenage boy who always wanted the same two tunes for weeks and weeks and weeks), he'll have to get the feeling that something is out of kilter with him and the rest of the session.
If he doesn't after all that, then Brad's right -- he's just a schmuck and somebody's going to have to be mean and tell him his hurdy gurdy isn't wanted.
Unless of course everyone is nice to the extent that they're willing to suffer through the hurdy gurdy for the rest of the session's existence.
I'd go with Dirk's suggestion to take the evil-doer aside and explain the situation to him. Keeping in mind that hurdy-gurdies are quite delicate, and it would be a shame if it got broken.
"'Ow many tanks you got 'ere, squire? Fings like that, they get broken, don't they?" - Monty Python
And to keep things straight, the thing the Hare Krishnas (and real Indian musicians) use is a Shruti Box, which is basically a harmonium with no legs. A harmonium, of course, is a piano accordion with legs.
The hurdy gurdy looks somewhat like a dulcimer or a guitar with a spinning drum or disk which serves to keep the strings (drone and melody) going. It's played by manipulating stoppers that change the vibrating length of the melody string (like what your fingers do on a violin fretboard).
Anne Dodson & Matt Szostak are both from Maine, Anne plays guitar among other things & has a great voice. Matt Builds & plays Hurdy Gurdy's. They both have pretty good musical sense of taste. I wouldn't say that they are Irish per se, I think they fall more into the folk category (which irish music is but please don't argue semantics folks - you know what I mean) For more info you can go to their site at http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/
Buy an album even....
He spins the crank with one hand and presses the keys with the other? The solution is simple. Tell him to fit a small motor to rotate the drum so that he can have a hand free to fend off the bottles and glasses that are going to get thrown at him.
Camogie players ??? As far as I know Camogie is the female version of Hurling, the ancient celtic sport whis is still played in Ireland and which is fowolled by thousends of GAA maniacs, including myself.
Where did you get that from?? And does hurly gurly have any meaning at all?? I just think Alex got mixed up with the name, he really meant HURDY GURDY.
Indeed, I did mean Hurdy Gurdy instead of Hurly Gurly. Alas, my pure frustration must have overwhelmed my memory of what the damn thing is actually called. Thanks for all of the fabulous response. It makes me feel better that I am not alone on this matter.
more than 20 years ago a muso friend of mine switched to medieval bard music...
...singing with funny boots, green stockings and a fools cap with dozens of little bells on it - his favourite backing instrument for his ballads was a "Drehleier" (translation may be "Wheel-Lyra" and I think, that is the mentioned Hurdy-Gurdy). In his hands and with this kind of music it was a fine instrument and it was pleasure to listen to a couple of tunes and ballads...
...but in his street gigs he changed instruments frequently to avoid people feeling annoyd and leave the spot to early and leaving less coins.
had no opportunity to listen to the mentioned Sean Nos sample yet, but I can imagine it fits ( and if played good everybody could stand it a couple of songs ) but please no standard to every tune. Anyway - it is no standard ITM instrument as far as we know. But it has been a common instrument in medieval europe and there might have been some of them in Ireland as well these days.
reasonable and sparingly put into some tunes as a drone&backing thing might be ok. but therefore the player has to understand this, understand itm and understand the (ohmygod not again) "session etiquette"...
...or he better joins the dilettant didge guys, constantly off beat bongo fureys, allah huh hwalla harmonium dervishs and pseudosiberian jaw harp shamans at their out of town camp fire party - don´t get me misunderstood - all the mentioned ethno cultures have great musicians and roots´n reasons to be taken serious, but think of five junior chefs able to prepare superficially ok tasting chinese-indian-mexican-french-aethiopian dishes and then imagine: put all their stuff into a blender and you can serve an ugly looking and crazy tasting muck soup.
Some crossovers might bring exciting new things (90 percent vanish as fast as it came), but it needs a feel for it mental and physical.... I remember Steve Hillage who once played with Gong and later made his own Hippy-Rock-Solo-Projects with his strange version of Donovan´s Hurdy Gurdy Man exploding into a "hurdy gurdy glissando" ... the very poor donovan song got something ekstatic and fresh (ok ok it is a bit flat right now after a couple of years)...
They make them wear SKIRTS? Sheeeesh...so, is camogie different from hurling, and if so, how? Is it taken as seriously as a sport? Wow...I had no idea...I guess this is my week for learning more about Scotland and Ireland...
Gosh ! I'm really slow this week. Thank's for the explanation grego & Zina.
Zina, Camogie is the same as hurling. I think the only difference is the duration of the match: it's shorter that hurling.
If you want further information about gaelic ancient games, just visit www.gaa.ie
well, again I am far away from the track this thread has taken but finally
I had the oportunitiy to listen to the mentioned samples of Anne and Matt. Matt´s tune "Noémie" is lovely ..... might become a perfect session tune with some fiddles&whistles and a set of pipes.
Damn hurly gurly
Damn hurly gurly
Howdy. Just a quick question, has anyone had a good experience with a hurly gurly at a session? There´s a guy who plays one in the session that I go to on a regular basis. Granted, I´m not against the instrument as a whole, but this fellow has a habit of playing in a key that no one can play in (something like F#). I´m also not saying that he is the ideal session member, he happens to play the triangle too. The people at the session are really nice and friendly and so no one says anything about it to him, but the other night he played for about 20 minutes and in a two hour session this can really be a big drag. If anyone can relate something that might change my mind about the value of the hurly gurly in a session, please do so. If not, and you hate it too, please relate that as well. Thanks,
Alex
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by abush
Re: Damn hurly gurly
I love the sound of the "hurdy gurdy" (I think that's correct, although it might be named after the English phrase "hurly-burly") but I agree it's not ideal in a session if the player only plays in one key. I always thought they were chromatic, but I'm probably wrong.
I've never really heard trad Irish tunes played on one, except for a few Andy Irvine numbers - to me they're for playing old French tunes (Breton, Oc, Provencal) and for accompanying songs but more in a solo than group setting. Maybe you should explain to your HG player that it's a bit selfish to spend 20 minutes on a solo set as even most singers would consider this over-long.
Conan
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
HG
Actually, I suppose that even if the instrument was chromatically keyed, the drones wouldn't change so it must be quite limited in scope.
Conan
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Well. Alex forgot to mention the worst parts of it: a) he spends the 20 first minutes of the session tuning the fe****g instrument; b) he doesn't play any tradtional tune, so no one can join in; and c) he plays the same 3 or 4 tunes week after week. Last night I found myself humming one of the bloody tunes he plays over and over.
Conan, I'm not sure whether he's selfish or not. I've been sharing sessions with him for the last 3 years and I believe he's this kind of guy who likes to atract other people's attention. He's originally a percusionist and he's been always playing a very loud bodhran, triangles, tambourines and other beasts that make you turn your head to see what's going on. Now it's hurdy gurdy's time.
Sorry lads, I'm just pouring my heart out.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Sorry hate the hurdy gurdy - anytime - dont care if its playing french or bloody spanish - just dont care. Its not a nice or pretty sound and if one was played in a session I went to, I'd probably never go again!
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by bb
Re: Damn hurly gurly
He sounds like a faddish kind of chap. Maybe you could persuade hime to get into the next best thing - Irish Traditional Mime?
Conan
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Er, should say "persuade him" and "the next big thing"
Sorry
Conan
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Is Hurly Gurly a deliberate perjorative sexist mis-spelling?
I have also suffered from one in a session though I like the medieval vibe generally, used a lot in Breton music. The trouble is they turn a wheel-bow so tend to keep turning the handle between tunes to keep momentum going and produce a continous drone. Pipers stop and they have to pump it up a bit, I can imagine the response if I kept noodling away on the fiddle between tunes before launching into another masterpiece.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by timjellies
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Good Lord Toni and Alex, I feel for the both of you. I have no simple solution other than a really strong and destructive act of violence.
Since that's not an option you are left with the utterly painful task of talking to him. The problem is that none of you wants to hurt the guy's feelings. I guess that makes you human. You can't tell someone to stop doing what they love without hurting them.
Sometimes hinting around has a worse cumulative effect than the old direct approach but at least you won't have to gather enough courage to come right out and say it.
I would be the worst person to tell him to cease and desist. I might do something evil anyway. I might ask him if he could tune the instrument so he could join the session. When he says 'I am in tune' or 'I am in the Session' - just look at him and shrug.
Last point - It never worked well for me so good luck.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Damn hurly gurly
You can tune a Hurdy Gurdy anywhere from E to A but G is the common tuning. Maybe he doesn't know that he's a half step flat - or maybe he's just a schmuck. Here's link to Anne Dodson & Matt Szostak playing "Open the Door" an old Sean Nos piece using voice & hurdy gurdy.
http://www.faucher.net/hurdygurdy/Openthedoor.mp3
It's one of the rare examples of good hurdy gurdy playing, I like just about everything I've heard Matt do on the hurdy gurdy. I'll admit it though - most hurdy gurdy players I've heard are not the best musicians.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Having the wrong instrument and tunes for a particular group is an age-old problem. The only way to deal
-Dirk
with it is to explain to the person - away from the rest of the group - that this is an Irish music session, and
that the hurdy gurdy is not a traditional Irish instrument. You should invite the person to bring a traditional
Irish instrument to learn, and to learn traditional Irish tunes. If this person insists on playing the hurdy gurdy,
then I would suggest finding a local medieval and Boroque group of musicians, and telling him about the
group. I'm sure he would be happier in his own genre. If he's a beginner, he just may not know what he is
looking for.
If he doesn't respond to that kind of suggestion, then he's probably evil, and I don't know how you should
deal with him. Maybe just start playing the session somewhere else, and don't tell him where it is, or simply
tell him he's not welcome. If he keeps showing up with the hurdy-gurdy, have a local judge issue a
restraining order... Or, if he just wants to attract attention, suggest that he learn the uilleann pipes, but maybe
the restraining order would be better.
Anyway, good luck, and please don't take me too seriously...
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by dirk
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Isn't this the instrument the Krishna people always use when they do their chanting thing? I never imagined the beast could show up in a session. Good lord. If ever there were a use for a flame thrower, this would seem to be the occassion.
--Eliot
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Eliot
Re: Damn hurly gurly
heeheehee, Brad..."maybe he's just a schmuck"! I'm not sure I even know what a hurdy-gurdy looks like, and hope I never find out. It sounds a bit like a little miniature pipe organ we had at the Cathedral.
I like Conán's suggestion of Irish traditional mime. I assume there's no session leader, Toni and Alex? If not, it may be a "take him aside and have a quiet word" time. If everybody does this (a la Brad's story about that poor teenage boy who always wanted the same two tunes for weeks and weeks and weeks), he'll have to get the feeling that something is out of kilter with him and the rest of the session.
If he doesn't after all that, then Brad's right -- he's just a schmuck and somebody's going to have to be mean and tell him his hurdy gurdy isn't wanted.
Unless of course everyone is nice to the extent that they're willing to suffer through the hurdy gurdy for the rest of the session's existence.
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Damn hurly gurly
I'd go with Dirk's suggestion to take the evil-doer aside and explain the situation to him. Keeping in mind that hurdy-gurdies are quite delicate, and it would be a shame if it got broken.
"'Ow many tanks you got 'ere, squire? Fings like that, they get broken, don't they?" - Monty Python
And to keep things straight, the thing the Hare Krishnas (and real Indian musicians) use is a Shruti Box, which is basically a harmonium with no legs. A harmonium, of course, is a piano accordion with legs.
Greg
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Gzeg
Re: Damn hurly gurly
The hurdy gurdy looks somewhat like a dulcimer or a guitar with a spinning drum or disk which serves to keep the strings (drone and melody) going. It's played by manipulating stoppers that change the vibrating length of the melody string (like what your fingers do on a violin fretboard).
Pretty horrible, but cute its own way.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by glauber
i forgot to say that the player spins this drum by means of a crank with one hand, while manipulating the keys with the other.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by glauber
Dodson & Szostak
The important thing here is - and forgive my ignorance - who are Anne Dodson & Matt Szostak? I listened to the MP3 and it's really great!
As for Hurly Gurlys - the correct expression is "Camogie Players."
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by grego
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Matt Szotstak:
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/
Anne Dodson:
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/ADodson/
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by glauber
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Anne Dodson & Matt Szostak are both from Maine, Anne plays guitar among other things & has a great voice. Matt Builds & plays Hurdy Gurdy's. They both have pretty good musical sense of taste. I wouldn't say that they are Irish per se, I think they fall more into the folk category (which irish music is but please don't argue semantics folks - you know what I mean) For more info you can go to their site at
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/
Buy an album even....
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Damn hurly gurly
He spins the crank with one hand and presses the keys with the other? The solution is simple. Tell him to fit a small motor to rotate the drum so that he can have a hand free to fend off the bottles and glasses that are going to get thrown at him.
That should do the trick.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Gael Force
Re: Damn hurly gurly
I would never play anything that I first discovered on an episode of the Smurfs.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by whistlemanhimself
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Camogie players ??? As far as I know Camogie is the female version of Hurling, the ancient celtic sport whis is still played in Ireland and which is fowolled by thousends of GAA maniacs, including myself.
Where did you get that from?? And does hurly gurly have any meaning at all?? I just think Alex got mixed up with the name, he really meant HURDY GURDY.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Indeed, I did mean Hurdy Gurdy instead of Hurly Gurly. Alas, my pure frustration must have overwhelmed my memory of what the damn thing is actually called. Thanks for all of the fabulous response. It makes me feel better that I am not alone on this matter.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by abush
Muck soup
more than 20 years ago a muso friend of mine switched to medieval bard music...
...singing with funny boots, green stockings and a fools cap with dozens of little bells on it - his favourite backing instrument for his ballads was a "Drehleier" (translation may be "Wheel-Lyra" and I think, that is the mentioned Hurdy-Gurdy). In his hands and with this kind of music it was a fine instrument and it was pleasure to listen to a couple of tunes and ballads...
...but in his street gigs he changed instruments frequently to avoid people feeling annoyd and leave the spot to early and leaving less coins.
had no opportunity to listen to the mentioned Sean Nos sample yet, but I can imagine it fits ( and if played good everybody could stand it a couple of songs ) but please no standard to every tune. Anyway - it is no standard ITM instrument as far as we know. But it has been a common instrument in medieval europe and there might have been some of them in Ireland as well these days.
reasonable and sparingly put into some tunes as a drone&backing thing might be ok. but therefore the player has to understand this, understand itm and understand the (ohmygod not again) "session etiquette"...
...or he better joins the dilettant didge guys, constantly off beat bongo fureys, allah huh hwalla harmonium dervishs and pseudosiberian jaw harp shamans at their out of town camp fire party - don´t get me misunderstood - all the mentioned ethno cultures have great musicians and roots´n reasons to be taken serious, but think of five junior chefs able to prepare superficially ok tasting chinese-indian-mexican-french-aethiopian dishes and then imagine: put all their stuff into a blender and you can serve an ugly looking and crazy tasting muck soup.
Some crossovers might bring exciting new things (90 percent vanish as fast as it came), but it needs a feel for it mental and physical.... I remember Steve Hillage who once played with Gong and later made his own Hippy-Rock-Solo-Projects with his strange version of Donovan´s Hurdy Gurdy Man exploding into a "hurdy gurdy glissando" ... the very poor donovan song got something ekstatic and fresh (ok ok it is a bit flat right now after a couple of years)...
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by crannog
Camogie
Toni: Hurley-Girlie. (Don't hit me!)
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by grego
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Aargh, grego -- bad puns! Heh. Don't feel bad, Toni, I didn't get the reference either until he explained it.
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Damn hurly gurly
now again for all of us: explained what? ;o)
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by crannog
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Hurly-gurly - "hurl-ie girl-ie"
Camogie players - female hurlers
heehee...
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Damn hurly gurly
better late than never - now it is me giggling....
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by crannog
Camogie
Look here for a photo of some hurly gurlys: http://www.hoganstand.com/general/camogie/ ... and you though bringing unusual instruments to sessions was dangerous!!
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by grego
Re: Damn hurly gurly
They make them wear SKIRTS? Sheeeesh...so, is camogie different from hurling, and if so, how? Is it taken as seriously as a sport? Wow...I had no idea...I guess this is my week for learning more about Scotland and Ireland...
Zina
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Damn hurly gurly
Gosh ! I'm really slow this week. Thank's for the explanation grego & Zina.
Zina, Camogie is the same as hurling. I think the only difference is the duration of the match: it's shorter that hurling.
If you want further information about gaelic ancient games, just visit www.gaa.ie
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Weeee the girlies in their skirts.....
well, again I am far away from the track this thread has taken but finally
I had the oportunitiy to listen to the mentioned samples of Anne and Matt. Matt´s tune "Noémie" is lovely ..... might become a perfect session tune with some fiddles&whistles and a set of pipes.
# Posted on September 20th 2002 by crannog