I had an idea before Christmas of getting together a collection of tunes in all the common dance forms that are shared by many traditions. The aim is to give beginners a basic musical handle on the style and range of the music from many (Irish, Scottish, English, Manx, Welsh, Breton, Spanish, French,) traditions of tunes that get played in sessions.
Clearly finding tunes or even forms common to the Spanish and Manx traditions is not very likely but if we initially concentrate on the traditions of the Ireland and the UK we should be able to come up with common tunes.
An example that springs to mind is the 9/8 tune "Drops Of Brandy" which is common to all traditions. Another advantage of this tune is that is an iconic form of 9/8 not one of the more interesting variants such as "Kissed Her Under the Coverlet from the NSP tradition".
In short an Ideal tune would be: -
1 Regularly played at sessions
2 Common to all traditions
3 Iconic
4 Public domain
If we can get a collection of such tunes together we can encourage people to take up the music.
This is not an attempt to tell people what they should play at sessions merely to open a door to allow them to come and play and learn other tunes.
I'm confused... The whole point is that there is little crossover between traditions (or at least, not in a readily admitted way) and that this crossover will usually only be of a dual nature. Particularly when I see you including britanny, galicia and wales, I'm not sure where you want to go with this.
While, for instance, waltzes and polkas have been adopted by nearly all traditions, they find different incarnations in each, even when the melody stays vaguely similar. Other tunes, like say jigs have been reimported (to france, for instance), but are played in a rather "un-jiggety" style for circassian circles and chapeloises. They also tend to get played in other keys, Bb, B and C being more common in France.
While I like much of the lot, and would love to see more people playing tunes I like from all over, I'm frankly worried at people who are not familiar with a tradition suddenly starting playing it. In france, for instance, the dots culture is fairly strong and I'm fairly certain that's why they play these horrible straight things instead of real jigs. Fortunately, they are no longer called jigs and no longer pretend to be Irish. But yer average French trad player (ie. one ignorant of the Irish tradition, not an ITM-whatever-other-acronym player who happens to be French) would destroy the rhythm on nearly any Irish tune he tried to play.
In fact, which of these musics are played in session context? France mostly have folk balls and pipe bands (for britanny), galicia seem to be the same, for instance
Who would you be aiming at with this collection? People at sessions who might enjoy looking at other cultures? People who might enjoy coming to sessions?
Sorry for the verbosity with no actual contribution...
Oh and don't get me started on other forms of style... Breton bombarde and clarinet players put so much ornamentation in, it's like they feel embarassed at how simple their tunes are. Pray to the gods they stay away from jigs!
Uh...how many traditions to qualify? I mean...does Scandinavian count? Or Moravian noseflute?
Red Haired Boy?
Do they play St. Anne's in *all* the traditions?
um... what about Miss McLeod's? Altho the Scottish version is a really fairly different tune...
The idea is to get such a collection together and have tunes or sets downloadable in many formats from a website with links to important traditional resources and maybe organise "slow" sessions specifically to help beginners acquire a basic repertoire
of tunes that will allow them to get a foot in the door at other sessions.
As far as I know, "The Silver Spear," "The Wind that Shakes the Barley," "Drowsy Maggie" and "The Harvest Home" are fairly common both in Ireland and Scotland, and basically the same setting of each tune gets played. And "Mason's Apron," of course.
Well-known Scots tunes in Irish tradition are "Athole Highlanders," "Jig o' Slurs," "The Flowers of Edinburgh," etc. And well-known Irish tunes in Scottish tradition are "Morrison's," "Kesh," "Out on the Ocean," "The Banshee," etc. etc.... And what about "Far from Home"?
At an English Session I discovered "The Waves of Tory" in their "Light Blue Book" I think it was, cheerfully labelled "Tiddley-yi-ti", alias "Leather away the Bottle-o". I piped up about it and a few of them recognised "The Waves of Tory" (but not "Leather away the Wattle-o"). They also played "Sir Roger de Coverley", but their version had four parts...
What about in the Aussie bush tradition, that has taken common tunes from Irish, English, Scottish, American, Europe, you name it .... etc? Definitely the Wind that Shakes the Barley in one of its formats, Athol Highlanders, Flowers of Edinburgh, Waves of Tory aka Siege of Ennis, etc etc. as well as some original Aussie traditional ones thrown in. Amazingly, the 'Bush Dance' collection compiled and arranged in sets for bush bands by David Johnson is also a blue book. What's this thing about blue, for tunes books anyway?
A banshee connection between Ireland and Scotland is in this link. James I of Scotland being visited by an Irish banshee before his death at the hands of an Atholl Highlander. http://www.irelandseye.com/animation/explorer/banshee.html
Cheers
So that's "The Waves of Tory", is it ? I first heard it called Yi-tiddley-i-ti, later Skin the Goat, Upstairs in the Tent, and finally "Lather the Wattle". But you can't dance "The Waves of Tory" to it because you need a 48-bar or 3-part tune, unless you play AABBAB, which is a pain.
As to tunes common across all frontiers, well, I think you've bitten off more than you can chew - you can make some links : - English/Scots/Irish/American/other English-speaking colonies; you could try Welsh/Breton/Galician; but connecting everything - I doubt it.
Orange and Blue gets played in most parts of the "British" Isles, but it's hardly common in ITM.
Waves of Tory goes "dA FA|dd d>f|ed cd|ef gf/g/|af ge|dc A>F|GB A/B/A/G/|FD D2" and it's an Island off the Donegal coast ruled by King Patsy Dan McRory!!
Sorry, is it the other tune in that set, Waves of Tory = Grande Old Dame Brittania? Tune names don't really mean a thing, get them muddled, but it doesn't affect the playing of them when I have to.
All traditions, actually are a mongrel mix.
There was a TV prog on the other night that highlighted the fact that all so called 'races' resulted from an incredible amount of mixing, with environmental factors only affecting things like the melamin in skins, the cooler the climate the less melamin to allow the absorbtion vitamin E rather than protect from an overdose of it in sunnier climates, but that races cannot be defined genetically because people are incredibly genetically diverse yet incredibly similar in basic things that make us humans. Needless to say, tradional musics must also result from these enormous cultural mixes over many thousands of years, no such thing as a pure drop really. The tunes that got mixed would presumably be those that were commonly taken by people mixing between cultures. Hence, it stands to reason that they would probably be common easy ones that could be easily shared. Just a thought.
Incredibly, I think I know what Scraper is saying; people travel, and bring tunes with them. And DNA. Its not surprising that this style of music is western european and NOT celtic/ whatever. Sailors and merchants just brought it along with them, ya? That said; I prefer the Irish version.
This is not intended as an intellectual exercise but a practical attempt to help interested people get involved in the sessions that exist, in what every mixture of varieties takes their fancy.
The tunes don't all have to be "ideal" there just the best to give people the necessary handle on the music and an entry point.
Oh goodness lost it again! Where did that post go?
Pied, the jist of my posts, that did get sidelined into the intellectual, is that you would do well to look in the antipodes, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, where people have migrated to from all over the old world in their droves, taking their music with them.
Two tunes books spring to mind:
1. Begged, Borrow and Stolen, compiled by Chris O'Connor and Suzette Watkins. First published 1979, Talunga Music, South Australia, but now apparently revised and with an accompanying CD. "For musos beginning their celtic experience"
2. Bush Dance, a collection of traditional tunes arranged in sets for bush bands. Compiled and arranged by David Johnson, 1997. Published by The Bush Music Club Inc., Box 433 GPO, Sydney 2001 Australia.
You might find copies of these books at Cecil Sharpe House in London. I don't know. Good luck, anyway. (I like my tunes more Irish than anything in either of these two books - they are just that, common tunes from different European traditions - what you were asking for)
I do take your points Old scraper and I'll check out the books you recommend.
I'm not opposed to the intellectual analysis of the tunes and their connections, in fact I'm very interested in the natural history of our tunes, it's just that I think it's time I got of my arse and did something to help perpetuate the musical form I most enjoy playing in.
Here in Manchester the sessions are reasonably healthy but the number of new people coming in is virtually non-existent.
I don't want to be in the position of having no sessions to go to when I'm the age of some of the folks I play with now.
Tunes common to all or most traditions
Tunes common to all or most traditions
I had an idea before Christmas of getting together a collection of tunes in all the common dance forms that are shared by many traditions. The aim is to give beginners a basic musical handle on the style and range of the music from many (Irish, Scottish, English, Manx, Welsh, Breton, Spanish, French,) traditions of tunes that get played in sessions.
Clearly finding tunes or even forms common to the Spanish and Manx traditions is not very likely but if we initially concentrate on the traditions of the Ireland and the UK we should be able to come up with common tunes.
An example that springs to mind is the 9/8 tune "Drops Of Brandy" which is common to all traditions. Another advantage of this tune is that is an iconic form of 9/8 not one of the more interesting variants such as "Kissed Her Under the Coverlet from the NSP tradition".
In short an Ideal tune would be: -
1 Regularly played at sessions
2 Common to all traditions
3 Iconic
4 Public domain
If we can get a collection of such tunes together we can encourage people to take up the music.
This is not an attempt to tell people what they should play at sessions merely to open a door to allow them to come and play and learn other tunes.
Any ideas much appreciated.
PP
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Haste to the Wedding
Jockey to the Fair
Princess Royal
Barren Rocks of Aden
Speed the Plough
Soldiers Joy
for starters!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Paul_draper
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Jingle bells
Happy Birthday
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Oops sorry about that!
I've just realised that they might not be public domain....
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
I'm confused... The whole point is that there is little crossover between traditions (or at least, not in a readily admitted way) and that this crossover will usually only be of a dual nature. Particularly when I see you including britanny, galicia and wales, I'm not sure where you want to go with this.
While, for instance, waltzes and polkas have been adopted by nearly all traditions, they find different incarnations in each, even when the melody stays vaguely similar. Other tunes, like say jigs have been reimported (to france, for instance), but are played in a rather "un-jiggety" style for circassian circles and chapeloises. They also tend to get played in other keys, Bb, B and C being more common in France.
While I like much of the lot, and would love to see more people playing tunes I like from all over, I'm frankly worried at people who are not familiar with a tradition suddenly starting playing it. In france, for instance, the dots culture is fairly strong and I'm fairly certain that's why they play these horrible straight things instead of real jigs. Fortunately, they are no longer called jigs and no longer pretend to be Irish. But yer average French trad player (ie. one ignorant of the Irish tradition, not an ITM-whatever-other-acronym player who happens to be French) would destroy the rhythm on nearly any Irish tune he tried to play.
In fact, which of these musics are played in session context? France mostly have folk balls and pipe bands (for britanny), galicia seem to be the same, for instance
How about maybe looking at tune types?
Ireland:
reel
jig
slip jig
polka
hornpipe
slide
Britanny:
gavotte
an dro
ridée
scottische
scottish waltz
welsh waltz
irish waltz
Who would you be aiming at with this collection? People at sessions who might enjoy looking at other cultures? People who might enjoy coming to sessions?
Sorry for the verbosity with no actual contribution...
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Tirno
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Oh and don't get me started on other forms of style... Breton bombarde and clarinet players put so much ornamentation in, it's like they feel embarassed at how simple their tunes are. Pray to the gods they stay away from jigs!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Tirno
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Uh...how many traditions to qualify? I mean...does Scandinavian count? Or Moravian noseflute?
Red Haired Boy?
Do they play St. Anne's in *all* the traditions?
um... what about Miss McLeod's? Altho the Scottish version is a really fairly different tune...
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
The idea is to get such a collection together and have tunes or sets downloadable in many formats from a website with links to important traditional resources and maybe organise "slow" sessions specifically to help beginners acquire a basic repertoire
of tunes that will allow them to get a foot in the door at other sessions.
PP
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Ok, so in that case, restrict to places that actually have a sessioning culture.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Tirno
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
As far as I know, "The Silver Spear," "The Wind that Shakes the Barley," "Drowsy Maggie" and "The Harvest Home" are fairly common both in Ireland and Scotland, and basically the same setting of each tune gets played. And "Mason's Apron," of course.
Well-known Scots tunes in Irish tradition are "Athole Highlanders," "Jig o' Slurs," "The Flowers of Edinburgh," etc. And well-known Irish tunes in Scottish tradition are "Morrison's," "Kesh," "Out on the Ocean," "The Banshee," etc. etc.... And what about "Far from Home"?
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by slainte
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
I missed out "Donald Blue"! The Irish version is a bit different though.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by slainte
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
At an English Session I discovered "The Waves of Tory" in their "Light Blue Book" I think it was, cheerfully labelled "Tiddley-yi-ti", alias "Leather away the Bottle-o".
I piped up about it and a few of them recognised "The Waves of Tory" (but not "Leather away the Wattle-o"). They also played "Sir Roger de Coverley", but their version had four parts...
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
What about in the Aussie bush tradition, that has taken common tunes from Irish, English, Scottish, American, Europe, you name it .... etc? Definitely the Wind that Shakes the Barley in one of its formats, Athol Highlanders, Flowers of Edinburgh, Waves of Tory aka Siege of Ennis, etc etc. as well as some original Aussie traditional ones thrown in. Amazingly, the 'Bush Dance' collection compiled and arranged in sets for bush bands by David Johnson is also a blue book. What's this thing about blue, for tunes books anyway?
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
A banshee connection between Ireland and Scotland is in this link. James I of Scotland being visited by an Irish banshee before his death at the hands of an Atholl Highlander.
http://www.irelandseye.com/animation/explorer/banshee.html
Cheers
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
So that's "The Waves of Tory", is it ? I first heard it called Yi-tiddley-i-ti, later Skin the Goat, Upstairs in the Tent, and finally "Lather the Wattle". But you can't dance "The Waves of Tory" to it because you need a 48-bar or 3-part tune, unless you play AABBAB, which is a pain.
As to tunes common across all frontiers, well, I think you've bitten off more than you can chew - you can make some links : - English/Scots/Irish/American/other English-speaking colonies; you could try Welsh/Breton/Galician; but connecting everything - I doubt it.
Orange and Blue gets played in most parts of the "British" Isles, but it's hardly common in ITM.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Waves of Tory goes "dA FA|dd d>f|ed cd|ef gf/g/|af ge|dc A>F|GB A/B/A/G/|FD D2" and it's an Island off the Donegal coast ruled by King Patsy Dan McRory!!
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Sorry, is it the other tune in that set, Waves of Tory = Grande Old Dame Brittania? Tune names don't really mean a thing, get them muddled, but it doesn't affect the playing of them when I have to.
All traditions, actually are a mongrel mix.
There was a TV prog on the other night that highlighted the fact that all so called 'races' resulted from an incredible amount of mixing, with environmental factors only affecting things like the melamin in skins, the cooler the climate the less melamin to allow the absorbtion vitamin E rather than protect from an overdose of it in sunnier climates, but that races cannot be defined genetically because people are incredibly genetically diverse yet incredibly similar in basic things that make us humans. Needless to say, tradional musics must also result from these enormous cultural mixes over many thousands of years, no such thing as a pure drop really. The tunes that got mixed would presumably be those that were commonly taken by people mixing between cultures. Hence, it stands to reason that they would probably be common easy ones that could be easily shared. Just a thought.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
And it would depend on who mixed with whom.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Incredibly, I think I know what Scraper is saying; people travel, and bring tunes with them. And DNA. Its not surprising that this style of music is western european and NOT celtic/ whatever. Sailors and merchants just brought it along with them, ya? That said; I prefer the Irish version.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Farr
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Wow, I just looked up at the original thread. What is "the NSP tradition"? Norwegian-Scottish-Persian?
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Farr
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
NSP= Northumbrian Small Pipe.
This is not intended as an intellectual exercise but a practical attempt to help interested people get involved in the sessions that exist, in what every mixture of varieties takes their fancy.
The tunes don't all have to be "ideal" there just the best to give people the necessary handle on the music and an entry point.
Thanks for your feedback
PP
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Oh goodness lost it again! Where did that post go?
Pied, the jist of my posts, that did get sidelined into the intellectual, is that you would do well to look in the antipodes, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, where people have migrated to from all over the old world in their droves, taking their music with them.
Two tunes books spring to mind:
1. Begged, Borrow and Stolen, compiled by Chris O'Connor and Suzette Watkins. First published 1979, Talunga Music, South Australia, but now apparently revised and with an accompanying CD. "For musos beginning their celtic experience"
2. Bush Dance, a collection of traditional tunes arranged in sets for bush bands. Compiled and arranged by David Johnson, 1997. Published by The Bush Music Club Inc., Box 433 GPO, Sydney 2001 Australia.
You might find copies of these books at Cecil Sharpe House in London. I don't know. Good luck, anyway. (I like my tunes more Irish than anything in either of these two books - they are just that, common tunes from different European traditions - what you were asking for)
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
I do take your points Old scraper and I'll check out the books you recommend.
I'm not opposed to the intellectual analysis of the tunes and their connections, in fact I'm very interested in the natural history of our tunes, it's just that I think it's time I got of my arse and did something to help perpetuate the musical form I most enjoy playing in.
Here in Manchester the sessions are reasonably healthy but the number of new people coming in is virtually non-existent.
I don't want to be in the position of having no sessions to go to when I'm the age of some of the folks I play with now.
PP
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Here's the link for the Bush Music Club shop in Sydney:
http://www.bushmusic.org.au/bmc_shop.html
Begged, Borrowed and Stolen info:
http://www.celt.com.au/austune.html
Good on you PP
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
"I don't want to be in the position of having no sessions to go to when I'm the age of some of the folks I play with now."
When you get that old you can come to ours John. Mrs Bailey died a few years back, so we've a space for someone old and grumpy with a hairy chin.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Tunes common to all or most traditions
Alas the ponytail and the bum fluff are no more but I'd love to visit the Harrington again. Maybe I'll organise a charabanc, is it still Fridays?
PP
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by Pied Piper