Or maybe the question is, Would it be considered a bit goofy to write in a Carolan style today? I’m not planning to try it; just curious. I can barely handle the simple dance forms.
Why are Carolan’s tunes so popular among practitioners of The Music when they don’t fit any of the traditional forms? If somebody writes a new tune with proper Irish accent, but based on an Italian late-Baroque form, will it stand a chance of being accepted into sessions?
Are Carolan tunes played in your session? What about other tunes outside the traditional dance forms (aside from slow airs)?
Because "he may be a son of a b*itch, but he's OUR son of a b*tch."
I don't hear Carolan too much out at most sessions except for a waltz or planxty here and there, specially if there's a harper. I like to play a waltz during an evening if there's anyone who's amenable.
Don't you mean O'Carolan? Get the name right !! lol..try the collections of the Gows'...Niel and his sons..
I play with a .....and i'm being careful here..precise clarsach player..who is very caring over any of his music(O'Carolan)....I actually like this as she has taught me a hell of alot about the feeling of tunes through the music..Because she is playing the instrument that he composed the tunes on.We have a thing about playing a little known tune and stopping people dead in their tracks..or playing a well known tune like shebeg and stopping a session!...but launching into a set of slides and whooping it up!....I Love music..it's such a funny animal..
But just remember he is called Turlough o'Carolan,,! he he..or i will set my pal on you!! GGRRRRRR!!! LOL!
"I wouldn't think so, but I'm curious as to why you are concerned about this?"
Just curious, really. I often wonder about the definitions and limits that we impose on our activities: where they can be stretched to find little treasures, where it’s best to toe the line, what’s a sensible limit and what’s just habit or prejudice or whatever.
My understanding (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that his name was actually Carolan, but an early publisher thought that O'Carolan had more appeal.
"I often wonder about the definitions and limits that we impose on our activities . . ."
So do I, which is why I asked my question. I believe that in your question is an example of such a limit that you are imposing on yourself, so let me state it again:
Why are you concerned about whether or not it would be accepted in *sessions*?
"Are Carolan tunes played in your session?"
And bearing in mind that, for the most part, the answer to this question is "No." Carolan's music is not session music. It is art music for a listening audience.
I think Zina basically has it right.
Anyone trying to write tunes in his style nowadays would have a hard time trying to get them into the session repertoire, although good tunes, per se, will still make their way in.
What is more distinctive about Mr. C., however you spell his name, is that his compositions survived the death of the old harpists' tradition, and some have remained popular, at least within our small field. Hands up anyone who knows more than half-a-dozen of his compositions !
Thankyou KFG..I respect the music o Turlough O'Carolan. and my pal is still primed for attack!..When she attended uni in Dublin ,the session members used to take it in turns to call to Mary Bergins house to see if she was allowed out to play...So i hold my friend in high regard not because of who her contemperies are/were..but because of her span of knowledge..and as i ponted out earlier she plays the instrument that the tunes were composed on (maybe minus the blades)...End note..can i ask What is the name written on the mans grave?...can this put an end to the name issue?..i'm off to have a look on the titernet!!! keep the music alive fiona xx
Oh, I love Carolan and play a number of his tunes and have more than that fixed in my head well enough that I could whistle them, but then I'm not much of a session player, mainly playing solo for listening audiences.
"I think Zina basically has it right."
Yes, waltzs are wonderful and woefully underplayed.
Imposing a limit on myself, Kevin? Am I? I don’t think so. I’m just curious about the limits that sessioners tacitly accept. I was just thinking about how what gets played in an Irish session is usually either an old established tune or a new tune that sounds very much like an old established tune. It’s an everyday occurrence for somebody to write a jig or reel that emulates the established style of jigs and reels.
My Irish session experience has been limited, but nearly every one I’ve been in has included one or two Carolan tunes, yet I don’t know of anyone who writes new tunes in *that* established style. If I’ve heard any, they must have been forgettable.
So, are Carolan tunes just a special novelty in sessions? Not really part of the real meat of a session?
I rather think so, Bob, re: the special novelty stuff -- unless you've a Jerry O'Sullivan or someone around who plays some of those old old tunes that the ethnomusicologists love to dig up. Have you heard his latest album? Cool beans
Mr. Google says the early sources have the name both ways and, further, that he was buried in the church yard of Kilronan, County Roscommon. Anybody wanna go check the tombstone?
"So, are Carolan tunes just a special novelty in sessions?"
Yes. As are songs and other forms of music other than dance tunes. They're the side dish thrown in now and again, not the meat.
You are not hearing many Carolan tunes, or tunes written in that style, not because they are not popular or are not played, but because they are not played *at sessions.*
Look at it this way, you don't hear much Aaron Copland at a bluegrass jam. That doesn't mean that there is no modern tradition of Americans composing classical music or that such isn't popular. It just means you're looking for it in the wrong place.
Sessions may be about Irish music, but Irish music is not about sessions. It contains genres just like any other culture has different genres of music, many of which don't mix well.
Carolan's music, like most baroque classical music, is *chamber* music for the upper classes. You can hear all the modern compositions in the Carolan style you like if you go hang out with the Irish wine and cheese set, because that is where it is at home.
We had a girl playing a harp at our session last week, and she played a number of beautiful Carolan tunes, it was a quiet night.
This set me to thinking why I sometimes hate "purist" sessions, where they argue whether jigs are better than reels, and play their particular favourite, jigs/reels, all night long and slow airs, Carolan or nothing else, marches, slides, gets a look in. Now I've been p[laying and listening to ITM for 44 years, and I find that boring.
Not being the World's best mandolin player, possibly not the worst either, I play Carolan tunes, fast stuff sounds better on the banjo and given my other talents I play another INSTRUMENT for the fast stuff.
Carolan stuff is wonderful, some of the airs are majestic, and there should always be room for it at a session, but alas this is not so. It doesn't help if the venue is full of noisy gits and you wouldn't hear slow airs, but still, we should persevere.
So Carolan is maybe more often heard at concerts, weddings, a couple of harpists thrown in at Civic functions, than at sessions, but it should be emulated, and played everywhere.
I read somewhere that the correct forms of the name are "Turlough O'Carolan" and "Carolan" (drop the O if not using the first name). Sounds logical--"Turlough of Carolan," like. Still, could have been a publicity stunt, even so.
In my neighborhood, Carolan tunes seem to be popular with beginner/intermediate sessions only. (Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just reporting what I have seen/heard.)
I also read somewhere that Charlie Lennon wrote Planxty Joe Burke in tribute to Carolan's style. There's a modern tune on Lunasa's Otherworld album called Autumn Child that sounds very Carolanian to me... I'm sure there are others.
As to whether it's goofy, I'd say that's in the eye of the beholder.
Actually, it occurs to me that the place I've heard the most modern compositions in the Carolan style is among the American "Reincarnated Druid" crowd.
"You are not hearing many Carolan tunes, or tunes written in that style, not because they are not popular or are not played, but because they are not played *at sessions.*"
Well, as I said, they've been played in most of the sessions I've been in. But then, I don't get out much.
"You can hear all the modern compositions in the Carolan style you like if you go hang out with the Irish wine and cheese set, because that is where it is at home."
I didn't know there was an Irish wine and cheese set.
I love O'Carolan's tunes, we play them from time to time at our sessions. Charlie Lennon is the only living composer I'm aware of that has attempted anything in that style. He calls his tune "Planxty Joe Burke." Charlie came into our session one night and was listening to us with his eyes closed as we were playing O'Carolan's Concerto. We medley'd it with his tune and when we went into it a big smile appeared on his face. After we finished, he borrowed a spare fiddle that happened to be there and we played a rake of his tunes. One of my favorite nights that was.
Speaking as someone who has an O' in my surname:
I can tell you that growing up in Ireland in the second half of the 20th Century, in school it was customary to refer to people by their surnames. Those of us with the 'O' would usually find that dropped. This may well have been an unconscious following of an old tradition, though I never heard anyone analyse it back then. Seems we do far to much analysing now and not enough living.
A couple of Carolan tunes turn up now and then at the sessions I attend; maybe about once every other session. It's usually either Planxty John Stafford or Loftus Jones. But then, one of our irregular regulars will also crank up the dreaded Penguin Cafe Orchestra special once or twice a year, too. I've been quietly advised that in most circles either of those will get you the boot; but then I've only ever been to these two sessions.
Despite loving his tunes to bits, I think that in today's terminology Turly baby would be described as a well hung manipulative psychotic with a gift for music who managed to spend some time with highly skilled european composers and translated their dots into the Irish vernacular. Sometimes I even suspect that he may have been feigning blindness to avoid the wrath of the various noblemen whose wives sponsored his career.
But good luck to him, his work is a great gift to all of us .
Checking my list of tunes I know, I count more than 20 Carolan. I love the stuff and want to learn them all. After learning a bunch of tunes, I like to throw in a couple of his.
A memorable session, a fine fiddler and I played "blind mary"....Absolutley beautiful. Everyone should know Lord Inchiquin and Hewlett. Certainly Si Beag Si Mor is worth committing to memory. Fanny Power.....I better stop.
There are some great ones I wouldn't think of playing in session, tho. Who will forget Quarrel with the Landlady, or The Two William Davis'! I play these when I am alone or among those who are less distinguishing. I played Concerto around a Boy Scout Campfire and got many "awesomes". I visit a friend who plays guitar, son plays banjo and small daughter ukelale and they love Morgan Magan.
I don't see why his tunes don't fit in. Breaks up the tidium of reels.They are breath-taking.
HI, thought that would grab attention anyway... looking at the title of this discussion, i think it may be worth pointing out that the evidence suggests that O Carolan was not a one-off anyhow and that emulating what was already there was, like the king, what he was mostly up to. in other words, he was pretty much a covers man. (shock, gasp, where's me hurly!)
i have found examples of tunes thought to be O Carolan surviving in manuscripts but which pre date O Carolans time.
it is well documented that he wasn't terribly good as a composer in the younger days but it is well documented that he was a sociable, friendly and witty character. with his love of alcohol, trading planxtys for pints doesn't seem that far fetched.
there isn't enough examples though of what existed before to go farther (thankfully for turloughs rep.) but people back then revelled in having their own versions of tunes. that's a trend that only declined really since the 50's i believe. in donegal for example, there are easily 20 versions of the pigeon on the gate, and irish washerwoman. dermot byrne seeming to be the only one who know's ‘em all.
so my message is yeah, emulate the great mans music. good music is good music no matter what the story. o carolan associated stuff is beautiful music and as it is older and prob going for longer than reels jigs, more traditional too. it is an interesting topic to look at to see the foundations of the jig (i have the notion that the jig originally came from songs...)
enough ranting from me but it's a topic that deserves attention i think.
Martin’s right about the originality (whatever that means) of Carolan’s work, but it’s no different from the rest of the composers of his time and preceding times. Up until the Viennese Classic era (1750-ish), it was normal behavior for composers to recycle existing material, their own as well as others’. It also happened after that time, but was more likely to be acknowledged as “Variations on a Theme of …”
No different, that is, unless there are actually cases of direct copying. I’d like to hear more about that. I wonder how different Si Beag Si Mohr is from The Bonny Cuckoo as it existed three hundred years ago.
I’ve listened to most of the Carolan catalog and I hear a lot of copy-and-paste and a fair amount of stuff that’s not very interesting. Some of it sounds like he was just filling in the proper number of measures with some stock phrases. No matter, though. A jewel is a jewel, regardless of where you find it.
Well I play in a lot of big houses, belonging to the Irish wine and cheese set, and I like O'Carolan.
And for those who didn't think Ireland had a wine and cheese set, believe me parts of Dublin are like 18th Century England, complete with servants, patronage, nepotism, and robbing from the poor.
It has always been my understanding that this is not a Carolan tune and that he never took credit for it. That is something that has been assigned to him after the fact.
It was suggested to him by a barman that he might want to learn his poetry by setting words to this lovely old local tune. The verse is Carolan's, but the tune was ancient before he was born.
"I’ve listened to most of the Carolan catalog and I hear a lot of copy-and-paste and a fair amount of stuff that’s not very interesting. Some of it sounds like he was just filling in the proper number of measures with some stock phrases."
Yep, and you'll find the same in Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. As Theodore Sturgeon noted, "Ninety percent of everthing is crap."
The context of that quote was discussing the difference between a hack and good writer. His point was not that ten percent of writers only write good stuff, but that ninety percent of the output of good writers was just as much crap as anybody else's.
But the hack *publishes* the crap.
"Some of you have been infected with Jeremy's disease and think every tune in triple time is a waltz. . ."
Actually, it always bugs the hell out of me when Ashokan Farewell is played as a waltz, even if it's being played by Jay. It was written as, and clearly is if you bother to get into it, a lament.
As a lament it really does deserve all the adoration it has received. As a waltz it's pretty good, but just another waltz really.
Somewhere between the folksy tunesmith and the third-rate Geminiani wannabe, Carolan managed to hit the right combination quite a few times. He might not have been equipped to compete with the Eurpoean masters on their turf, but, intentionally or not, he found a very charming and enduring middle turf. I’ll bet he’s played a lot more than Geminiani today.
We sometimes play a modern waltz or slow tune that sounds O'Carolanish (sic), when we are taking a break from the fast stuff, so this would be welcome in one of our sessions....
Above, KFG said that you would not hear Aaron Copeland in a bluegrass jam--but I sure hear a lot of bluegrass tunes in Copeland's work!!!!!
I gather from the Carolan website posted above that he started playing only at 18 and wasn't regarded as a very good player, but was regarded more for his compositional abilities and for his ability to set verses to his tunes - surely a significant part of what he did: do these verses survive?
Listening to the Carolan compositions used as soundtrack on the website mentioned above - I can't remember their names - what struck me was how pleasant one of them, anyway, sounded on harpsichord, and how tedious it would sound played as a melody on a usual session instrument.
I assume that would go for a lot of Carolan tunes - best left to the harp or comparable instruments, and played as background music. (I rather like the sound of these Dublin wine and cheese parties...)
I love the harp, but I'd prefer to hear most Carolan tunes on other instruments. Some of my favorote recordings of the tunes have featured fiddle, mandolin or melodeon, with bouzouki or guitar backing. De Dannan recorded several, all great renditioins. Mick Moloney plays a ripping good Loftus Jones on mandolin on his Strings Attached album.
Don't forget: O'Carolan wrote his concerto via a drinking match with Corelli in the Baroque style....
Besides, he was a man, not a damned god. I play the harp a little and I always go back to Shebag a' Shemore when I don't know what else to do. Or, I just play it because it was the first piece I ever learned of his (on recorder, no less!) and it's still my favorite.
At one session in State College, Pa, we actually had Shebag a' Shemore played on 2 guitars, recorder, penny whistle, bodran and =trombone=. One of the blokes who came in late said it sounded like a Temperance Union Meeting. Good, but still weird.
B-T-W: If you say Fanny Power as "Fanny Poor-er" no one will get the giggles.
Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Or maybe the question is, Would it be considered a bit goofy to write in a Carolan style today? I’m not planning to try it; just curious. I can barely handle the simple dance forms.
Why are Carolan’s tunes so popular among practitioners of The Music when they don’t fit any of the traditional forms? If somebody writes a new tune with proper Irish accent, but based on an Italian late-Baroque form, will it stand a chance of being accepted into sessions?
Are Carolan tunes played in your session? What about other tunes outside the traditional dance forms (aside from slow airs)?
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Because "he may be a son of a b*itch, but he's OUR son of a b*tch."
I don't hear Carolan too much out at most sessions except for a waltz or planxty here and there, specially if there's a harper. I like to play a waltz during an evening if there's anyone who's amenable.
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
ewe batch
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Just a person
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
oops. Feel free to fix that typo, Jeremy.
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
". . .will it stand a chance of being accepted into sessions?"
I wouldn't think so, but I'm curious as to why you are concerned about this?
KFG
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Don't you mean O'Carolan? Get the name right !! lol..try the collections of the Gows'...Niel and his sons..
I play with a .....and i'm being careful here..precise clarsach player..who is very caring over any of his music(O'Carolan)....I actually like this as she has taught me a hell of alot about the feeling of tunes through the music..Because she is playing the instrument that he composed the tunes on.We have a thing about playing a little known tune and stopping people dead in their tracks..or playing a well known tune like shebeg and stopping a session!...but launching into a set of slides and whooping it up!....I Love music..it's such a funny animal..
But just remember he is called Turlough o'Carolan,,! he he..or i will set my pal on you!! GGRRRRRR!!! LOL!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"I wouldn't think so, but I'm curious as to why you are concerned about this?"
Just curious, really. I often wonder about the definitions and limits that we impose on our activities: where they can be stretched to find little treasures, where it’s best to toe the line, what’s a sensible limit and what’s just habit or prejudice or whatever.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"Get the name right !!"
Terry.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
My understanding (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that his name was actually Carolan, but an early publisher thought that O'Carolan had more appeal.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Yes.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Hanley
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"I often wonder about the definitions and limits that we impose on our activities . . ."
So do I, which is why I asked my question. I believe that in your question is an example of such a limit that you are imposing on yourself, so let me state it again:
Why are you concerned about whether or not it would be accepted in *sessions*?
"Are Carolan tunes played in your session?"
And bearing in mind that, for the most part, the answer to this question is "No." Carolan's music is not session music. It is art music for a listening audience.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I think Zina basically has it right.
Anyone trying to write tunes in his style nowadays would have a hard time trying to get them into the session repertoire, although good tunes, per se, will still make their way in.
What is more distinctive about Mr. C., however you spell his name, is that his compositions survived the death of the old harpists' tradition, and some have remained popular, at least within our small field. Hands up anyone who knows more than half-a-dozen of his compositions !
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Thankyou KFG..I respect the music o Turlough O'Carolan. and my pal is still primed for attack!..When she attended uni in Dublin ,the session members used to take it in turns to call to Mary Bergins house to see if she was allowed out to play...So i hold my friend in high regard not because of who her contemperies are/were..but because of her span of knowledge..and as i ponted out earlier she plays the instrument that the tunes were composed on (maybe minus the blades)...End note..can i ask What is the name written on the mans grave?...can this put an end to the name issue?..i'm off to have a look on the titernet!!! keep the music alive fiona xx
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
oopppss !!!!! I meant "TinTernet"!!!!!...Ho Hum!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Oh, I love Carolan and play a number of his tunes and have more than that fixed in my head well enough that I could whistle them, but then I'm not much of a session player, mainly playing solo for listening audiences.
"I think Zina basically has it right."
Yes, waltzs are wonderful and woefully underplayed.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Honest!....oh bugger!......LOL!!!!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
He's more than waltzes.......
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Peter Kay has alot to answer for!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by fionarua
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Imposing a limit on myself, Kevin? Am I? I don’t think so. I’m just curious about the limits that sessioners tacitly accept. I was just thinking about how what gets played in an Irish session is usually either an old established tune or a new tune that sounds very much like an old established tune. It’s an everyday occurrence for somebody to write a jig or reel that emulates the established style of jigs and reels.
My Irish session experience has been limited, but nearly every one I’ve been in has included one or two Carolan tunes, yet I don’t know of anyone who writes new tunes in *that* established style. If I’ve heard any, they must have been forgettable.
So, are Carolan tunes just a special novelty in sessions? Not really part of the real meat of a session?
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Oh, I love waltzes, too. I think every session of whatever genre should include one or two.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I rather think so, Bob, re: the special novelty stuff -- unless you've a Jerry O'Sullivan or someone around who plays some of those old old tunes that the ethnomusicologists love to dig up. Have you heard his latest album? Cool beans
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Mr. Google says the early sources have the name both ways and, further, that he was buried in the church yard of Kilronan, County Roscommon. Anybody wanna go check the tombstone?
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Hmmm, must check out Jerry O'Sullivan.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"So, are Carolan tunes just a special novelty in sessions?"
Yes. As are songs and other forms of music other than dance tunes. They're the side dish thrown in now and again, not the meat.
You are not hearing many Carolan tunes, or tunes written in that style, not because they are not popular or are not played, but because they are not played *at sessions.*
Look at it this way, you don't hear much Aaron Copland at a bluegrass jam. That doesn't mean that there is no modern tradition of Americans composing classical music or that such isn't popular. It just means you're looking for it in the wrong place.
Sessions may be about Irish music, but Irish music is not about sessions. It contains genres just like any other culture has different genres of music, many of which don't mix well.
Carolan's music, like most baroque classical music, is *chamber* music for the upper classes. You can hear all the modern compositions in the Carolan style you like if you go hang out with the Irish wine and cheese set, because that is where it is at home.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"Anybody wanna go check the tombstone?"
The inscribed stone is modern, put in place for pilgrims and tourists and as such caters to their expectations.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
We had a girl playing a harp at our session last week, and she played a number of beautiful Carolan tunes, it was a quiet night.
This set me to thinking why I sometimes hate "purist" sessions, where they argue whether jigs are better than reels, and play their particular favourite, jigs/reels, all night long and slow airs, Carolan or nothing else, marches, slides, gets a look in. Now I've been p[laying and listening to ITM for 44 years, and I find that boring.
Not being the World's best mandolin player, possibly not the worst either, I play Carolan tunes, fast stuff sounds better on the banjo and given my other talents I play another INSTRUMENT for the fast stuff.
Carolan stuff is wonderful, some of the airs are majestic, and there should always be room for it at a session, but alas this is not so. It doesn't help if the venue is full of noisy gits and you wouldn't hear slow airs, but still, we should persevere.
So Carolan is maybe more often heard at concerts, weddings, a couple of harpists thrown in at Civic functions, than at sessions, but it should be emulated, and played everywhere.
There.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I read somewhere that the correct forms of the name are "Turlough O'Carolan" and "Carolan" (drop the O if not using the first name). Sounds logical--"Turlough of Carolan," like. Still, could have been a publicity stunt, even so.
In my neighborhood, Carolan tunes seem to be popular with beginner/intermediate sessions only. (Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just reporting what I have seen/heard.)
I also read somewhere that Charlie Lennon wrote Planxty Joe Burke in tribute to Carolan's style. There's a modern tune on Lunasa's Otherworld album called Autumn Child that sounds very Carolanian to me... I'm sure there are others.
As to whether it's goofy, I'd say that's in the eye of the beholder.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by John Galt
P.S Bob, Jerry O'Sullivan cd
The album is worth it for the liner notes alone, Bob!
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Actually, it occurs to me that the place I've heard the most modern compositions in the Carolan style is among the American "Reincarnated Druid" crowd.
They crank it out by the ton.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"You are not hearing many Carolan tunes, or tunes written in that style, not because they are not popular or are not played, but because they are not played *at sessions.*"
Well, as I said, they've been played in most of the sessions I've been in. But then, I don't get out much.
"You can hear all the modern compositions in the Carolan style you like if you go hang out with the Irish wine and cheese set, because that is where it is at home."
I didn't know there was an Irish wine and cheese set.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"I didn't know there was an Irish wine and cheese set."
Oooooooooh yeah!
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Zina, you're talking about Jerry O'Sullivan, the piper? What's the CD called?
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I love O'Carolan's tunes, we play them from time to time at our sessions. Charlie Lennon is the only living composer I'm aware of that has attempted anything in that style. He calls his tune "Planxty Joe Burke." Charlie came into our session one night and was listening to us with his eyes closed as we were playing O'Carolan's Concerto. We medley'd it with his tune and when we went into it a big smile appeared on his face. After we finished, he borrowed a spare fiddle that happened to be there and we played a rake of his tunes. One of my favorite nights that was.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Phantom Button
Bob
It's O'Sullivan meets O'Farrell, Volume I -- http://www.jerryosullivan.com/osullivanmeetsofarrell.htm
It's great stuff, Bob! I really enjoyed it.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Mickray I've read to same about th "O" in Carolan. A Good bio site on him explains the whole issue. While not definative, interesting none the less.
http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/carlnbio.html
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by RogueFiddler
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Speaking as someone who has an O' in my surname:
I can tell you that growing up in Ireland in the second half of the 20th Century, in school it was customary to refer to people by their surnames. Those of us with the 'O' would usually find that dropped. This may well have been an unconscious following of an old tradition, though I never heard anyone analyse it back then. Seems we do far to much analysing now and not enough living.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Donough
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"...the American "reincarnated druid" crowd."
I've been quietly advised that in most circles either of those will get you the boot; but then I've only ever been to these two sessions.
Do tell?
A couple of Carolan tunes turn up now and then at the sessions I attend; maybe about once every other session. It's usually either Planxty John Stafford or Loftus Jones. But then, one of our irregular regulars will also crank up the dreaded Penguin Cafe Orchestra special once or twice a year, too.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by sara g
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"Seems we do far to much analysing now and not enough living."
It's the dreaded Sense of Irony! ;)
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"Do tell?"
Meaning no offence, of course.
KFG
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Despite loving his tunes to bits, I think that in today's terminology Turly baby would be described as a well hung manipulative psychotic with a gift for music who managed to spend some time with highly skilled european composers and translated their dots into the Irish vernacular. Sometimes I even suspect that he may have been feigning blindness to avoid the wrath of the various noblemen whose wives sponsored his career.
But good luck to him, his work is a great gift to all of us .
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"hands Up"
Checking my list of tunes I know, I count more than 20 Carolan. I love the stuff and want to learn them all. After learning a bunch of tunes, I like to throw in a couple of his.
A memorable session, a fine fiddler and I played "blind mary"....Absolutley beautiful. Everyone should know Lord Inchiquin and Hewlett. Certainly Si Beag Si Mor is worth committing to memory. Fanny Power.....I better stop.
There are some great ones I wouldn't think of playing in session, tho. Who will forget Quarrel with the Landlady, or The Two William Davis'! I play these when I am alone or among those who are less distinguishing. I played Concerto around a Boy Scout Campfire and got many "awesomes". I visit a friend who plays guitar, son plays banjo and small daughter ukelale and they love Morgan Magan.
I don't see why his tunes don't fit in. Breaks up the tidium of reels.They are breath-taking.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"well hung?" - can this be substantiated without offending the sensibilities of a family webforum?
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Is ELVIS a one-off, not to be emulated?
HI, thought that would grab attention anyway... looking at the title of this discussion, i think it may be worth pointing out that the evidence suggests that O Carolan was not a one-off anyhow and that emulating what was already there was, like the king, what he was mostly up to. in other words, he was pretty much a covers man. (shock, gasp, where's me hurly!)
i have found examples of tunes thought to be O Carolan surviving in manuscripts but which pre date O Carolans time.
it is well documented that he wasn't terribly good as a composer in the younger days but it is well documented that he was a sociable, friendly and witty character. with his love of alcohol, trading planxtys for pints doesn't seem that far fetched.
there isn't enough examples though of what existed before to go farther (thankfully for turloughs rep.) but people back then revelled in having their own versions of tunes. that's a trend that only declined really since the 50's i believe. in donegal for example, there are easily 20 versions of the pigeon on the gate, and irish washerwoman. dermot byrne seeming to be the only one who know's ‘em all.
so my message is yeah, emulate the great mans music. good music is good music no matter what the story. o carolan associated stuff is beautiful music and as it is older and prob going for longer than reels jigs, more traditional too. it is an interesting topic to look at to see the foundations of the jig (i have the notion that the jig originally came from songs...)
enough ranting from me but it's a topic that deserves attention i think.
the best,
martin t.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by martin t
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Some of you have been infected with Jeremy's disease and think every tune in triple time is a waltz (cf. Mr O Connor in the tune section - beurk).
I am pretty sure the waltz wasn't invented in Carolan's lifetime and didn't reach Ireland until maybe a century after his death.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Martin’s right about the originality (whatever that means) of Carolan’s work, but it’s no different from the rest of the composers of his time and preceding times. Up until the Viennese Classic era (1750-ish), it was normal behavior for composers to recycle existing material, their own as well as others’. It also happened after that time, but was more likely to be acknowledged as “Variations on a Theme of …”
No different, that is, unless there are actually cases of direct copying. I’d like to hear more about that. I wonder how different Si Beag Si Mohr is from The Bonny Cuckoo as it existed three hundred years ago.
I’ve listened to most of the Carolan catalog and I hear a lot of copy-and-paste and a fair amount of stuff that’s not very interesting. Some of it sounds like he was just filling in the proper number of measures with some stock phrases. No matter, though. A jewel is a jewel, regardless of where you find it.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
P.S.
I like the Elvis comparison.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Well I play in a lot of big houses, belonging to the Irish wine and cheese set, and I like O'Carolan.
And for those who didn't think Ireland had a wine and cheese set, believe me parts of Dublin are like 18th Century England, complete with servants, patronage, nepotism, and robbing from the poor.
# Posted on January 25th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
"Si Beag Si Mohr"
It has always been my understanding that this is not a Carolan tune and that he never took credit for it. That is something that has been assigned to him after the fact.
It was suggested to him by a barman that he might want to learn his poetry by setting words to this lovely old local tune. The verse is Carolan's, but the tune was ancient before he was born.
"I’ve listened to most of the Carolan catalog and I hear a lot of copy-and-paste and a fair amount of stuff that’s not very interesting. Some of it sounds like he was just filling in the proper number of measures with some stock phrases."
Yep, and you'll find the same in Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. As Theodore Sturgeon noted, "Ninety percent of everthing is crap."
The context of that quote was discussing the difference between a hack and good writer. His point was not that ten percent of writers only write good stuff, but that ninety percent of the output of good writers was just as much crap as anybody else's.
But the hack *publishes* the crap.
"Some of you have been infected with Jeremy's disease and think every tune in triple time is a waltz. . ."
Actually, it always bugs the hell out of me when Ashokan Farewell is played as a waltz, even if it's being played by Jay. It was written as, and clearly is if you bother to get into it, a lament.
As a lament it really does deserve all the adoration it has received. As a waltz it's pretty good, but just another waltz really.
Nonetheless, I like playing waltzs.
"Well I play in a lot of big houses. . ."
There's nothing like a harp and bodhran duo.
". . .robbing from the poor."
Everyone needs a hobby.
KFG
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Somewhere between the folksy tunesmith and the third-rate Geminiani wannabe, Carolan managed to hit the right combination quite a few times. He might not have been equipped to compete with the Eurpoean masters on their turf, but, intentionally or not, he found a very charming and enduring middle turf. I’ll bet he’s played a lot more than Geminiani today.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Bob himself
Carolan to be emulated
Imagine being unable to see and having to learn tunes by ear! what would us dot readers do!
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Learn music.
KFG
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by KFG
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
We sometimes play a modern waltz or slow tune that sounds O'Carolanish (sic), when we are taking a break from the fast stuff, so this would be welcome in one of our sessions....
Above, KFG said that you would not hear Aaron Copeland in a bluegrass jam--but I sure hear a lot of bluegrass tunes in Copeland's work!!!!!
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I love playing Fanny Power but I get embarrassed when asked its title .Why did he call it that ?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by black
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
We follow Fanny Power with the South Wind, and call it the flatulence set....
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
He called it after Fanny Power.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Or Fanny Poer.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I gather from the Carolan website posted above that he started playing only at 18 and wasn't regarded as a very good player, but was regarded more for his compositional abilities and for his ability to set verses to his tunes - surely a significant part of what he did: do these verses survive?
Listening to the Carolan compositions used as soundtrack on the website mentioned above - I can't remember their names - what struck me was how pleasant one of them, anyway, sounded on harpsichord, and how tedious it would sound played as a melody on a usual session instrument.
I assume that would go for a lot of Carolan tunes - best left to the harp or comparable instruments, and played as background music. (I rather like the sound of these Dublin wine and cheese parties...)
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
I love the harp, but I'd prefer to hear most Carolan tunes on other instruments. Some of my favorote recordings of the tunes have featured fiddle, mandolin or melodeon, with bouzouki or guitar backing. De Dannan recorded several, all great renditioins. Mick Moloney plays a ripping good Loftus Jones on mandolin on his Strings Attached album.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Is Carolan a one-off, not to be emulated?
Don't forget: O'Carolan wrote his concerto via a drinking match with Corelli in the Baroque style....
Besides, he was a man, not a damned god. I play the harp a little and I always go back to Shebag a' Shemore when I don't know what else to do. Or, I just play it because it was the first piece I ever learned of his (on recorder, no less!) and it's still my favorite.
At one session in State College, Pa, we actually had Shebag a' Shemore played on 2 guitars, recorder, penny whistle, bodran and =trombone=. One of the blokes who came in late said it sounded like a Temperance Union Meeting. Good, but still weird.
B-T-W: If you say Fanny Power as "Fanny Poor-er" no one will get the giggles.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by catlin