Reading the thread about self-actualization, a couple posts were brought to the forefront about superior players (I'm not one of them)...
If you arrive early to a session, and get a good seat, not the leaders seat, but a seat in your "section (the fiddlers tend to sit together, fluters together with pipers, melody hangs out together, etc.), is it in good taste to resign your seat to a better player who comes in after you? It really doesn't matter to me. I tend to sit with my friends, but there was a time or 2 when I wasn't and I felt like I was taking up prime real estate.
I would typically offer my seat up to a player that I knew had seniority or who was by far more superior. More often than not, they decline, but it never hurts to ask. If after a while you really aren't playing many tunes and that player is still sitting towards the back of the circle, I'll often be a bit more direct about things and tell them to take my seat because I would rather sit in the back where I can play a bit quieter. Usually, if you have a reason like that to give up your seat, the person will always accept your offer. If that fails and you still feel uncomfortable sitting where you are, resign yourself to the bar to listen for long enough, and then eventually your seat will be filled and then when if come back, you can quietly sit on the outside of things.
I sit at the back-I feel my playing is not up to snuff 50% of the time-but I do chime in when I know the tune. Kinda like back benchers (I think that's the right phrase, if not someone from over "there" can help me out).
Hi guys 'n gals.
Glad to see your all still cheerfully blethering away here.
Good to see some things never change.
First thing I did was to bid a 'Tenner' for that Paragon Banjo - & this is the 2nd thing!
Yup, Sunny. I reckon it often makes for a better atmosphere & helps lead to a better session, which should, after all, be everyones major objective.
Let's be honest, how often do you see a totally disfunctional session struggling along, just because a couple of folks who know far too few tunes have grabbed the central seats?
Last night, for example, a fine musician arrived unexpectedly, just as I was getting comfortable.
He arrived with his Fiddle, Uilleann Pipes & Flute under his arm! Anyway, as soon as I saw him I stood up & gave him my seat by the table.
Sure, I did this as a mannerly gesture, but also because his drones were going to be far better pretected in my corner seat.
It meant he was comfortable & probably played better too, so it made for a better night for me too.
As Conan says it isn't always necessary, but sometimes it is just plain common sense and if it leads to them being in better form, then you will benefit too.
On the other hand, if one of the shining lights, one of the Gavins, Bradleys or Peoples of this world suddenly appeared at our session, I would indeed "resign myself to the bar" - immediately.
Well - As that noted philosopher 'Clint Eastwood' once said - "A man's gotta know his limitations"
P.S. Have there been any recent sightings of 'KENNY' in the outback of OZ?
P.S. - had a night out with Davy Stuart [sp?] and his wife in Christchurch. He's making very good stringed instruments these days - guitars, harps, mandolins, the lot, and recording musicians as well. He sent his best wishes.
Sorry about the "off-topic", but he started it !
Agree with the sentiments expressed by Dick & Conan, but each situation is different. As usual, I would leave it to common sense - [ or better still, tell the bodhran player to give up HIS seat. ]
It also works in reverse. I remember a few years ago at a session I felt that fiddle & box players were deliberately picking tunes in "awkward" keys to exclude the flute-players. I gave up my seat - to a spoons player.
Good points here. Kenny gets at an important notion--that where you sit doesn't just affect you or the person who might take your seat. It helps to think in terms of how it will affect the overall session dynamics, both sound wise and personality wise.
Of course, every situation is different, and there a lots of variables to consider: room acoustics, size of the group, players' abilities, instruments on hand, extent of shared repertoire, ambient noise level, the potential for corner loading, simple seniority, even the mood of the players. And all this changes from week to week, and sometimes during the course of the session itself.
Sometimes it's good to just let serendipity take care of things. Other times, I like to experiment a bit and see what happens. For example, we discovered that it's easy to include a hammered dulcimer at a session as long as the soundboard faces out into the room, rather than smack into a wall or corner or under a low ceiling. This keeps the "wall of sound" from overwhelming other instruments. Prolly not worth analyzing too much, but sometimes a little forethought can avoid a sonic traffic jam and/or hurt feelings.
I really couldn't be arsed with a session where I had to give up my seat according to pecking order. I'd always make room, somehow, for a good, or even not-so-good, player though.
Kenny, can you please furnish more details about these keys which are "awkward" for flute players? We need to be told!
When I was in Ireland there were a few sessions I showed up at (before they got started) and I took a seat after the hosts or regs established their own places, but then as others arrived I felt I might be in prime real estate because I would look around the table and see that other visitors like myself were there, and seating was very tight, but mine was right next to the hosts. I was compelled to openly, but quietly, rectify the situation with the person who probably should have been in my seat, but they always politely refused, even if I was adamant about it.
When I reflect back on it I can't come up with any solution other than to give up my seat without any negotiation, and thereby extracting myself from the session all together since the seating was so tight. This would be disappointing and frustrating to me considering that I was contributing to the session and knew as many tunes as the other visitors still around the table. The choice becomes; stay and play but feel awkward, or give up your seat and feel good, but be frustrated and disappointed.
It took me about 10 minutes to realise that I knew none of the tunes at mona's - so I got up and gave my seat to someone who did.
I think thats only fair - if you dont know the tunes then give up your seat Especially if there are musicans sitting around who do know the tunes or who are locals to the session.
To be honest I don't think you should give up your seat if you got there first. I certainly know that if I turn up at a session late that I play at regularly I don't expect anybody to give me a seat. I would possibly be considered to be a reasonable player but rules are rules.
On top of that if you give up your seat you allow the usual group to dominate the session and play their tunes. I think its better that you sit in there and extend yourself and get to know people. Its amazing how good some of your own tunes sound if you get a good accompanist playing with you (speaking from the point of view of a tune player). You can then possibly get to play some tunes that you know your friends know too.
However I completely agree that sometimes you just have to have the wisdom to realise that its time to retreat to the bar and listen to the music and learn!
Ptarmigan! Are you Name Dropping?! ... There is a local session that I used to frequent, where a number of folks that knew maybe one or two tunes would sit all night and keep more seasoned players from sitting in. It seemed petulant to point this out, so I just stopped showing up. But I agree with most of the threads here. If you got here first and the hosts don't have enough room...
Yes as in Live at Mona's - I guess all sessions are different. And I know that alot of people on this site love that session. A friend of ours was with us from ireland and she just loved it and had the best time.
They play almost entirely in D and G minor. I like a couple of D/G minor tunes but mainly prefer major, Bminor, Aminor and E'minor tunes. They play at a very relaxed pace and I like a bit more of drive. And they dont play any 'newer' tunes at all and I got the impression that they wouldnt really like it if someone did.
So basically it is some peoples dream session but others may not love it.
Also it is in the "smallest" space I have ever seen for a session - they manage to squeeze around 10 or more people in this tiny corner beside the bar!
Hey Farr, I just quoted from a Clint Eastwood movie! I didn't mean to imply that I'd actually met the dude!
As for me mentioning Kenny, sorry, yes, I must confess, that was a bit of a name dropping exercise but I've been on my hols from the mustard board for so long, I guess I just forgot the rules!
However, I do assure you, the Oz I was referring to was the country, not Osbourne!
Incidentally, Kenny actually met up with the famous 'The Pride of Wagga-Wagga Ceili Band' while in the land of Oz, but I just can't seem to find their website anywhere. Does anyone out there, happen to have their last CD?
One session I pop by at, regularly gets a clown coming in half way through the evening with 3 button boxes, anglo, pipes, the kitchen sink etc. and does not only expect a seat, he expects room for all his junk as well (and he only plays tunes in ones, twenty times through).
Does anyone else think that latecomers should bring more instruments than the rest of the room put together?.
This thread reminds me of an incident from our local session's past.
We once had a very aggressive woman who played piano show up. (imagine aggressive piano) The session setting was located right next to the piano in those days. This woman showed up after the session started one night, but the seating had already become very tight around the circle. She demanded that room be made for her, but people apologized and would explain that there was no room -- they were shoulder to shoulder. The next tune started up and everyone joined in... and yer one stood with her arms crossed and had blood dripping from her eyes. Before I explain what happened next I should mention that she was a formidable woman -- could have made a big name for herself in the male rugby league. So, shortly after the second tune began I heard the sound of chairs scooting across a wooden floor and I looked up to find she was shoving chairs with musicians in them while they were playing. It was an amazing spectacle to see fiddlers and flute player colliding with each other. It looked like a musical multi-car pile-up. After parting the seas, she placed a chair in the gap, plunked herself down and joined in before the third tune started.
As host of the session, everyone expected me to do something about it. Up until then my "hosting" amounted to nothing more than being the session's custodian. My duties were to show up early, clear empty glasses from the table and set up the chairs and such. Other than that I was just another musician around the table. On this night the dimensions of my duties would be forever altered.
Obviously the people who were shoved to the side complained to me, but also, the guy who was playing guitar at the time complained that his instrument was canceled out as soon as yer one started her pounding on the piano. Something had to be done, but I had no idea what it would be.
I thought about it all week, and sought advice from local gurus, but the solution didn't occur to me until the following Sunday as I was arranging the chairs around the table. All I had to do was throw my weight into it – literally. In a last minute stroke of genius, I realized that if I sat in the chair in front of the piano -- she wouldn't be able to shove me out of the way. (Imagine Chubakka playing concertina. I'm your basic Star Wars wookie sort and it would require at least 3 storm troopers to even budge me an inch.) Brilliant!
So... everything went just as it did the week before, the seating got tight, and yer one showed up on cue and marched right up to me and said "MOVE!" I responded with all of the diplomacy and politeness I could muster that the seating was tight right now, but if she could just wait a bit -- someone was bound to leave and we could make room for her then. She stormed out of the pub.
For a long time after that I was visited by various local and visiting musical illusionaries, (who didn't frequent our session,) who were convinced by her that I had "kicked her out of the session." Depending on their state of sobriety at the time my explanation of what actually happened only had a slight chance of getting through or not. For years I had to deal with this until the same woman eventually estranged herself from every session in town for similar reasons thereby absolving me. Whew!
Last I heard, yer one lives quietly somewhere in Connemarra and has become an equestrian.
Aye Button. Your story reminds me of a lady who arrived early for our session one night & was sitting in the prime seat when I arrived.
As I settled myself she proceeded to tell me all about how good a Bodhran player she really was and that she was also a singer, but that nobody in Belfast would let her sing at their sessions............ alarm bells started to ring!
Sadly, I fear this young lady was a Joker short of a deck of cards &, as we soon found out, could neither sing nor play the bodhran.
As for her not being allowed to sing, she didn't actually appear to know 'all' the words of any song & it was painful to hear her start each song, only to collapse half way through the second verse of each of them.
Last time I saw her she was actually being dragged out of the bar by the barman, who could stand no more & feared for his own sanity if she were to start yet another song ............then I got my chair back!
Is it polite to move
Is it polite to move
Reading the thread about self-actualization, a couple posts were brought to the forefront about superior players (I'm not one of them)...
If you arrive early to a session, and get a good seat, not the leaders seat, but a seat in your "section (the fiddlers tend to sit together, fluters together with pipers, melody hangs out together, etc.), is it in good taste to resign your seat to a better player who comes in after you? It really doesn't matter to me. I tend to sit with my friends, but there was a time or 2 when I wasn't and I felt like I was taking up prime real estate.
What would you do?
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Is it polite to move
It's polite but not always necessary. As usual it depends. If you can it's much better to just try and make room; that way everyone's happy.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Is it polite to move
yeah, everybody always makes room, and everybody is happy...I suppose I would have felt better offering up my chair...next time I will.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Is it polite to move
I would typically offer my seat up to a player that I knew had seniority or who was by far more superior. More often than not, they decline, but it never hurts to ask. If after a while you really aren't playing many tunes and that player is still sitting towards the back of the circle, I'll often be a bit more direct about things and tell them to take my seat because I would rather sit in the back where I can play a bit quieter. Usually, if you have a reason like that to give up your seat, the person will always accept your offer. If that fails and you still feel uncomfortable sitting where you are, resign yourself to the bar to listen for long enough, and then eventually your seat will be filled and then when if come back, you can quietly sit on the outside of things.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Jason G
Re: Is it polite to move
"resign yourself to the bar"
now there's a good idea!
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Is it polite to move
I sit at the back-I feel my playing is not up to snuff 50% of the time-but I do chime in when I know the tune. Kinda like back benchers (I think that's the right phrase, if not someone from over "there" can help me out).
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by I_Fel
Re: Is it polite to move
ps- you almost HAVE to sit at the back so you can get some room when the drones are laying across your legs. They'll know the pipes are on or not. : )
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by I_Fel
Re: Is it polite to move
Hi guys 'n gals.
Glad to see your all still cheerfully blethering away here.
Good to see some things never change.
First thing I did was to bid a 'Tenner' for that Paragon Banjo - & this is the 2nd thing!
Yup, Sunny. I reckon it often makes for a better atmosphere & helps lead to a better session, which should, after all, be everyones major objective.
Let's be honest, how often do you see a totally disfunctional session struggling along, just because a couple of folks who know far too few tunes have grabbed the central seats?
Last night, for example, a fine musician arrived unexpectedly, just as I was getting comfortable.
He arrived with his Fiddle, Uilleann Pipes & Flute under his arm! Anyway, as soon as I saw him I stood up & gave him my seat by the table.
Sure, I did this as a mannerly gesture, but also because his drones were going to be far better pretected in my corner seat.
It meant he was comfortable & probably played better too, so it made for a better night for me too.
As Conan says it isn't always necessary, but sometimes it is just plain common sense and if it leads to them being in better form, then you will benefit too.
On the other hand, if one of the shining lights, one of the Gavins, Bradleys or Peoples of this world suddenly appeared at our session, I would indeed "resign myself to the bar" - immediately.
Well - As that noted philosopher 'Clint Eastwood' once said - "A man's gotta know his limitations"
P.S. Have there been any recent sightings of 'KENNY' in the outback of OZ?
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is it polite to move
I survived - I'm back.
Did you like the postcard ?
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Kenny
Re: Is it polite to move
P.S. - had a night out with Davy Stuart [sp?] and his wife in Christchurch. He's making very good stringed instruments these days - guitars, harps, mandolins, the lot, and recording musicians as well. He sent his best wishes.
Sorry about the "off-topic", but he started it !
Agree with the sentiments expressed by Dick & Conan, but each situation is different. As usual, I would leave it to common sense - [ or better still, tell the bodhran player to give up HIS seat. ]
It also works in reverse. I remember a few years ago at a session I felt that fiddle & box players were deliberately picking tunes in "awkward" keys to exclude the flute-players. I gave up my seat - to a spoons player.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Kenny
Re: Is it polite to move
Good points here. Kenny gets at an important notion--that where you sit doesn't just affect you or the person who might take your seat. It helps to think in terms of how it will affect the overall session dynamics, both sound wise and personality wise.
Of course, every situation is different, and there a lots of variables to consider: room acoustics, size of the group, players' abilities, instruments on hand, extent of shared repertoire, ambient noise level, the potential for corner loading, simple seniority, even the mood of the players. And all this changes from week to week, and sometimes during the course of the session itself.
Sometimes it's good to just let serendipity take care of things. Other times, I like to experiment a bit and see what happens. For example, we discovered that it's easy to include a hammered dulcimer at a session as long as the soundboard faces out into the room, rather than smack into a wall or corner or under a low ceiling. This keeps the "wall of sound" from overwhelming other instruments. Prolly not worth analyzing too much, but sometimes a little forethought can avoid a sonic traffic jam and/or hurt feelings.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Is it polite to move
I really couldn't be arsed with a session where I had to give up my seat according to pecking order. I'd always make room, somehow, for a good, or even not-so-good, player though.
Kenny, can you please furnish more details about these keys which are "awkward" for flute players? We need to be told!
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Bren
Re: Is it polite to move
When I was in Ireland there were a few sessions I showed up at (before they got started) and I took a seat after the hosts or regs established their own places, but then as others arrived I felt I might be in prime real estate because I would look around the table and see that other visitors like myself were there, and seating was very tight, but mine was right next to the hosts. I was compelled to openly, but quietly, rectify the situation with the person who probably should have been in my seat, but they always politely refused, even if I was adamant about it.
When I reflect back on it I can't come up with any solution other than to give up my seat without any negotiation, and thereby extracting myself from the session all together since the seating was so tight. This would be disappointing and frustrating to me considering that I was contributing to the session and knew as many tunes as the other visitors still around the table. The choice becomes; stay and play but feel awkward, or give up your seat and feel good, but be frustrated and disappointed.
I have no answer for this obviously.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it polite to move
It took me about 10 minutes to realise that I knew none of the tunes at mona's - so I got up and gave my seat to someone who did.
Especially if there are musicans sitting around who do know the tunes or who are locals to the session.
I think thats only fair - if you dont know the tunes then give up your seat
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by bb
Re: Is it polite to move
Mona's?? As in Live at Mona's- tell us what that's like???
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by I_Fel
Re: Is it polite to move
I find myself half way between most people here.
To be honest I don't think you should give up your seat if you got there first. I certainly know that if I turn up at a session late that I play at regularly I don't expect anybody to give me a seat. I would possibly be considered to be a reasonable player but rules are rules.
On top of that if you give up your seat you allow the usual group to dominate the session and play their tunes. I think its better that you sit in there and extend yourself and get to know people. Its amazing how good some of your own tunes sound if you get a good accompanist playing with you (speaking from the point of view of a tune player). You can then possibly get to play some tunes that you know your friends know too.
However I completely agree that sometimes you just have to have the wisdom to realise that its time to retreat to the bar and listen to the music and learn!
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by scotfiddle
Re: Is it polite to move
Ptarmigan! Are you Name Dropping?! ... There is a local session that I used to frequent, where a number of folks that knew maybe one or two tunes would sit all night and keep more seasoned players from sitting in. It seemed petulant to point this out, so I just stopped showing up. But I agree with most of the threads here. If you got here first and the hosts don't have enough room...
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Farr
Re: Is it polite to move
Hi I_Fel,
Yes as in Live at Mona's - I guess all sessions are different. And I know that alot of people on this site love that session. A friend of ours was with us from ireland and she just loved it and had the best time.
They play almost entirely in D and G minor. I like a couple of D/G minor tunes but mainly prefer major, Bminor, Aminor and E'minor tunes. They play at a very relaxed pace and I like a bit more of drive. And they dont play any 'newer' tunes at all and I got the impression that they wouldnt really like it if someone did.
So basically it is some peoples dream session but others may not love it.
Also it is in the "smallest" space I have ever seen for a session - they manage to squeeze around 10 or more people in this tiny corner beside the bar!
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by bb
Re: Is it polite to move
Hey Farr, I just quoted from a Clint Eastwood movie! I didn't mean to imply that I'd actually met the dude!
As for me mentioning Kenny, sorry, yes, I must confess, that was a bit of a name dropping exercise but I've been on my hols from the mustard board for so long, I guess I just forgot the rules!
As for Kenny's name drop - Davy Stuart. I posted Davy's website Link some time ago, so is you want to check it out, go to: http://www.thesession.org/links/index.php/search?name=Davy+Stuart
However, I do assure you, the Oz I was referring to was the country, not Osbourne!
Incidentally, Kenny actually met up with the famous 'The Pride of Wagga-Wagga Ceili Band' while in the land of Oz, but I just can't seem to find their website anywhere. Does anyone out there, happen to have their last CD?
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is it polite to move
One session I pop by at, regularly gets a clown coming in half way through the evening with 3 button boxes, anglo, pipes, the kitchen sink etc. and does not only expect a seat, he expects room for all his junk as well (and he only plays tunes in ones, twenty times through).
Does anyone else think that latecomers should bring more instruments than the rest of the room put together?.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Is it polite to move
This thread reminds me of an incident from our local session's past.
We once had a very aggressive woman who played piano show up. (imagine aggressive piano) The session setting was located right next to the piano in those days. This woman showed up after the session started one night, but the seating had already become very tight around the circle. She demanded that room be made for her, but people apologized and would explain that there was no room -- they were shoulder to shoulder. The next tune started up and everyone joined in... and yer one stood with her arms crossed and had blood dripping from her eyes. Before I explain what happened next I should mention that she was a formidable woman -- could have made a big name for herself in the male rugby league. So, shortly after the second tune began I heard the sound of chairs scooting across a wooden floor and I looked up to find she was shoving chairs with musicians in them while they were playing. It was an amazing spectacle to see fiddlers and flute player colliding with each other. It looked like a musical multi-car pile-up. After parting the seas, she placed a chair in the gap, plunked herself down and joined in before the third tune started.
As host of the session, everyone expected me to do something about it. Up until then my "hosting" amounted to nothing more than being the session's custodian. My duties were to show up early, clear empty glasses from the table and set up the chairs and such. Other than that I was just another musician around the table. On this night the dimensions of my duties would be forever altered.
Obviously the people who were shoved to the side complained to me, but also, the guy who was playing guitar at the time complained that his instrument was canceled out as soon as yer one started her pounding on the piano. Something had to be done, but I had no idea what it would be.
I thought about it all week, and sought advice from local gurus, but the solution didn't occur to me until the following Sunday as I was arranging the chairs around the table. All I had to do was throw my weight into it – literally. In a last minute stroke of genius, I realized that if I sat in the chair in front of the piano -- she wouldn't be able to shove me out of the way. (Imagine Chubakka playing concertina. I'm your basic Star Wars wookie sort and it would require at least 3 storm troopers to even budge me an inch.) Brilliant!
So... everything went just as it did the week before, the seating got tight, and yer one showed up on cue and marched right up to me and said "MOVE!" I responded with all of the diplomacy and politeness I could muster that the seating was tight right now, but if she could just wait a bit -- someone was bound to leave and we could make room for her then. She stormed out of the pub.
For a long time after that I was visited by various local and visiting musical illusionaries, (who didn't frequent our session,) who were convinced by her that I had "kicked her out of the session." Depending on their state of sobriety at the time my explanation of what actually happened only had a slight chance of getting through or not. For years I had to deal with this until the same woman eventually estranged herself from every session in town for similar reasons thereby absolving me. Whew!
Last I heard, yer one lives quietly somewhere in Connemarra and has become an equestrian.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it polite to move
oh my, what a story...a bovine with an equine..some folks are so obtuse!
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Is it polite to move
Aye Button. Your story reminds me of a lady who arrived early for our session one night & was sitting in the prime seat when I arrived.
As I settled myself she proceeded to tell me all about how good a Bodhran player she really was and that she was also a singer, but that nobody in Belfast would let her sing at their sessions............ alarm bells started to ring!
Sadly, I fear this young lady was a Joker short of a deck of cards &, as we soon found out, could neither sing nor play the bodhran.
As for her not being allowed to sing, she didn't actually appear to know 'all' the words of any song & it was painful to hear her start each song, only to collapse half way through the second verse of each of them.
Last time I saw her she was actually being dragged out of the bar by the barman, who could stand no more & feared for his own sanity if she were to start yet another song ............then I got my chair back!
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Ptarmigan