Is it possible to achieve "buddha nature" through ITM? Can one abandon ego and self in the rough and tumble of a good session, especially with strangers? Why do we tend to define ourselves by what others may think of us in a musical sense?
Zina Lee, among others, speaks of a stage in which we think we play very well, and then, relative to someone else's playing, or an observation, we suffer a diminished sense of self-confidence and ability, and an inflated sense of humility. It's happened to me, and it's bothersome. Why do we let someone else have this effect on us? Seems like we ought to know better. Any thoughts? When do we become self-actualized, if ever?
I’d like to resolve this problem before I die and actually play one gig where I feel secure and confident from beginning to end. Or would that take away the excitement?
I talked with Tim Gallwey when he was doing the promo tour for “The Inner Game of Tennis” and I was the 437th person to ask him to write “The Inner Game of Music”, which he finally did – as co-author with Barry Green. I've got the book. Maybe now I should read it.
I've observed this in a regular session I attend which is mostly folks who are really amazing players who have known each other and played tunes together for many years (the others, not me!). It really comes through their in playing, and their obvious enjoyment, and it's a joy to be around.
I definitly sense that kind of being-in-the-moment quality that can be part of playing ITM, when the other stuff recedes. Playing dance tunes, perhaps more than other types of western folk music, seems to really lend itself to this.
As for getting there, besides the challenges of technique and repetoire so often discussed here, I think the social dimension of the session, the interpersonal stuff, is always going to be a determining factor. Among the company of friends, it'll be easier to let go of the other stuff. A session of strangers will always be a gamble, but when they do click, how wonderful.
I only get out to sessions a few times a month; not enough. When I do go, I really try to do away with expectations about my own playing. It's hard, but when I can, the whole experience is much improved.
My only wish to achieve nirvana and escape the cycle of life, death and rebirth, is that I don't want to come back as a shakey egg player.
But, really, I go along with Keith here. Like when you're focussing inwardly on your own playing, yet keeping an ear out for your session mates, trying to keep as best you can the same timing and phrasing as them, and your other senses are just ticking over...or you get near to that point of changeover to another tune, so your thinking "what would go well with this one, let's try tune X, it will lift the set", so you go for it, like a rock climber's crux move... yes, it's what I imagine is a timeless Zen zone.
This *large charge* is, for me, best felt at small intimate sessions with a few "good" players, with no baggage, whom you know well and with whom you enjoy playing.
Hmmm...maybe I should say "sympathetic" players rather than "good", lest I mislead anyone as to my playing level....or more like their good, but sympathetic to my plight of mediocrity. Anyway, whatever, the Zen zone is still there.
The ability to let go well playing is something I strive for. It is the reason I love to play so much. When it happens it is really quite freeing just to let go and play without any thoughts as to your ability or thoughts on anything at all really.
I know she doesn't do ITM, but I heard Kathy Matea say in a showcase recently that the reason she keeps going back out on the road is for those moments when the song is all there is - she isn't "there", the audience isn't "there", they and the song are all one. I don't know how that would translate to a sesion, but I expect that there have to be those moments in a session where everything and everyone clicks, all become one in the tune.
I think this does take that level of techical ability where you can not pay attention to the notes or the ornaments, the bowing, the fingering, whatever, and simple play the tune rather than the instrument. I have experienced it to some degree, but I don't know that I have in an ITM session yet. Someday............
I play for the moments when it is going well at whatever level I'm at -- whoever I'm paying with or just playing alone. The tunes I love are enough to keep me going. I"m so far from playing like my heroes - my vanity is no issue and luckily, I have only the occasional twinge of despair.
Lately, I've been fretting over whether to record myself for learning purposes since I don't have a live teacher. It will be a reality check - that's where the ego and the whatever self is currently being constructed will meet. Marantz PMD 660 (on the way) as teacher.
I'm much better at sticking with this practice than I have ever been at my buddhist practice - so I often get them confused.
I have always been about playing for fun and not to be good. I play for my own enjoyment and when I can get together with other people who enjoy the same thing it is a great event. I can always tell the amazing players from the horrible and to be honest only a couple people at my session are not good players and it is usually because they don't breath any life into their playing and it is just mechanics (I like to refer to them as Silver Flute or Violin converts) and technique with no style no blas (soul). Of course I do hear that people think I am a good player which gives me a feeling of euphoria as I have taken some thing I love and shared it with other people and gained acceptance. I just came back from a Lunasa concert and the whole time I didn't compare myself to them because, I am not Kevin Crawford my playing is not exactly like his (although he is a big influence) so instead of fretting over how he is better than me (or is he?), I sat back and enjoyed some great tunes played by great musicians. One old Zen saying is how I like to live my life: "To think oneself better than another, is to be worse than all." Rmember that next time you listen to your favorite player.
There is " a stage in which we think we play very well, and then, relative to someone else's playing, or an observation, we suffer a diminished sense of self-confidence and ability, and an inflated sense of humility. "
It's biologically built in; we feel superior in the presence of our inferiors and inferior in the presence of our superiors - it's called the pecking order; and there's nothing you can do about it. Many's the social experiment that's tried to level it all out but they've all, more or less, ended up like the Soviet Union.
And, no doubt about it, sessions have their pecking order. You get the inner circle (physically and socially) comprised of the best players and around them wider circles of the less able. Check it out - look where people sit and compare the wallflowers with the in crowd.
For the full musical Zen experience I find it's best to play with my peers so that I'm neither overawed by the pyrotechnics of the stars nor irritated by the plodding cacophony of the inept. There's no better feeling than hearing your playing blending with the others. And, over time, you can see the development of the group; being able to say after you've finished a set of tunes: "Hey, we couldn't have done that six months ago" - another really good feeling.
I did not start playing fiddle until I was nearly 42, with minute musical knowledge beforehand, I expect everyone to be better than me (especially the young ones) so when someone's a bit worse than me it makes me feel pretty good. Same when I see excellent musicians tripping up from time to time, it's a bit reassuring. But of course, I don't gloat
You may realize Buddha nature through anything, since Buddha nature is what you have all the time. All practice is Buddhist practice. There is nothing to "achieve."
Beware the "Little Enlightenment" of the craftsman. It is a sticky trap.
Speaking as a musician who plays ITM and STM I completely agree that the practise of music is completely in line with the search for buddhahood inside and around yourself.
Music is my passion and I am currently involved in making an album with my band. This process has brought up all sorts of negativity including doubts about my own abilities. Of course all these negativities are in me and I have to deal with them and understand them.
The practise of music and and realising buddhahood are very similar. You spend years looking for something that was there all the time. You just have to believe!
Thanks Anna. I do not practice to get better I play to have fun and often the two occur at the same time. With enough patience we will all gain our own style and become a "good" player which is what we all strive for in the beggining. It seems to me that when I became a good player I didn't realize it, until a bunch of other players who I admired told me or other people who later told me that I was good. I hate snobs, I absolutly hate people who feel the need to go around thinking they are better than everyone else. At one of the first Sessions I ever attended I was trying to learn a tune while everyone was playing it, the person next to me stops playing and says "do you know this tune?" I answer "No," she says "well then don't play." I knew that that was not how a session went even if it was only the second or third I had ever been to, I have not talked to that person or that group again as they are snobs. You will also notice that the good players who are humble about their playing tend to hang around with each other, and on further thought those seem to be the people I sit next to at sessions. Of course I am realizing most of this as I type.
Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Is it possible to achieve "buddha nature" through ITM? Can one abandon ego and self in the rough and tumble of a good session, especially with strangers? Why do we tend to define ourselves by what others may think of us in a musical sense?
Zina Lee, among others, speaks of a stage in which we think we play very well, and then, relative to someone else's playing, or an observation, we suffer a diminished sense of self-confidence and ability, and an inflated sense of humility. It's happened to me, and it's bothersome. Why do we let someone else have this effect on us? Seems like we ought to know better. Any thoughts? When do we become self-actualized, if ever?
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by rainog
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Some of my friends have achieved “Bubba nature” through playing bluegrass music.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Very good, Bob
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I’d like to resolve this problem before I die and actually play one gig where I feel secure and confident from beginning to end. Or would that take away the excitement?
I talked with Tim Gallwey when he was doing the promo tour for “The Inner Game of Tennis” and I was the 437th person to ask him to write “The Inner Game of Music”, which he finally did – as co-author with Barry Green. I've got the book. Maybe now I should read it.
Mr. Green has a website on Inner Game stuff: http://www.innergameofmusic.com/
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I've observed this in a regular session I attend which is mostly folks who are really amazing players who have known each other and played tunes together for many years (the others, not me!). It really comes through their in playing, and their obvious enjoyment, and it's a joy to be around.
I definitly sense that kind of being-in-the-moment quality that can be part of playing ITM, when the other stuff recedes. Playing dance tunes, perhaps more than other types of western folk music, seems to really lend itself to this.
As for getting there, besides the challenges of technique and repetoire so often discussed here, I think the social dimension of the session, the interpersonal stuff, is always going to be a determining factor. Among the company of friends, it'll be easier to let go of the other stuff. A session of strangers will always be a gamble, but when they do click, how wonderful.
I only get out to sessions a few times a month; not enough. When I do go, I really try to do away with expectations about my own playing. It's hard, but when I can, the whole experience is much improved.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
My only wish to achieve nirvana and escape the cycle of life, death and rebirth, is that I don't want to come back as a shakey egg player.
But, really, I go along with Keith here. Like when you're focussing inwardly on your own playing, yet keeping an ear out for your session mates, trying to keep as best you can the same timing and phrasing as them, and your other senses are just ticking over...or you get near to that point of changeover to another tune, so your thinking "what would go well with this one, let's try tune X, it will lift the set", so you go for it, like a rock climber's crux move... yes, it's what I imagine is a timeless Zen zone.
This *large charge* is, for me, best felt at small intimate sessions with a few "good" players, with no baggage, whom you know well and with whom you enjoy playing.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Hmmm...maybe I should say "sympathetic" players rather than "good", lest I mislead anyone as to my playing level....or more like their good, but sympathetic to my plight of mediocrity. Anyway, whatever, the Zen zone is still there.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
The ability to let go well playing is something I strive for. It is the reason I love to play so much. When it happens it is really quite freeing just to let go and play without any thoughts as to your ability or thoughts on anything at all really.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by banana512
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I know she doesn't do ITM, but I heard Kathy Matea say in a showcase recently that the reason she keeps going back out on the road is for those moments when the song is all there is - she isn't "there", the audience isn't "there", they and the song are all one. I don't know how that would translate to a sesion, but I expect that there have to be those moments in a session where everything and everyone clicks, all become one in the tune.
I think this does take that level of techical ability where you can not pay attention to the notes or the ornaments, the bowing, the fingering, whatever, and simple play the tune rather than the instrument. I have experienced it to some degree, but I don't know that I have in an ITM session yet. Someday............
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by RickD
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I play for the moments when it is going well at whatever level I'm at -- whoever I'm paying with or just playing alone. The tunes I love are enough to keep me going. I"m so far from playing like my heroes - my vanity is no issue and luckily, I have only the occasional twinge of despair.
Lately, I've been fretting over whether to record myself for learning purposes since I don't have a live teacher. It will be a reality check - that's where the ego and the whatever self is currently being constructed will meet. Marantz PMD 660 (on the way) as teacher.
I'm much better at sticking with this practice than I have ever been at my buddhist practice - so I often get them confused.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by ratbiscuit
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I have always been about playing for fun and not to be good. I play for my own enjoyment and when I can get together with other people who enjoy the same thing it is a great event. I can always tell the amazing players from the horrible and to be honest only a couple people at my session are not good players and it is usually because they don't breath any life into their playing and it is just mechanics (I like to refer to them as Silver Flute or Violin converts) and technique with no style no blas (soul). Of course I do hear that people think I am a good player which gives me a feeling of euphoria as I have taken some thing I love and shared it with other people and gained acceptance. I just came back from a Lunasa concert and the whole time I didn't compare myself to them because, I am not Kevin Crawford my playing is not exactly like his (although he is a big influence) so instead of fretting over how he is better than me (or is he?), I sat back and enjoyed some great tunes played by great musicians. One old Zen saying is how I like to live my life: "To think oneself better than another, is to be worse than all." Rmember that next time you listen to your favorite player.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
There is " a stage in which we think we play very well, and then, relative to someone else's playing, or an observation, we suffer a diminished sense of self-confidence and ability, and an inflated sense of humility. "
It's biologically built in; we feel superior in the presence of our inferiors and inferior in the presence of our superiors - it's called the pecking order; and there's nothing you can do about it. Many's the social experiment that's tried to level it all out but they've all, more or less, ended up like the Soviet Union.
And, no doubt about it, sessions have their pecking order. You get the inner circle (physically and socially) comprised of the best players and around them wider circles of the less able. Check it out - look where people sit and compare the wallflowers with the in crowd.
For the full musical Zen experience I find it's best to play with my peers so that I'm neither overawed by the pyrotechnics of the stars nor irritated by the plodding cacophony of the inept. There's no better feeling than hearing your playing blending with the others. And, over time, you can see the development of the group; being able to say after you've finished a set of tunes: "Hey, we couldn't have done that six months ago" - another really good feeling.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by bong tree
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Through sessions, I have developed the body of a buddah....I think it is the Guiness......
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
I did not start playing fiddle until I was nearly 42, with minute musical knowledge beforehand, I expect everyone to be better than me (especially the young ones) so when someone's a bit worse than me it makes me feel pretty good. Same when I see excellent musicians tripping up from time to time, it's a bit reassuring. But of course, I don't gloat
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Cath
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
You may realize Buddha nature through anything, since Buddha nature is what you have all the time. All practice is Buddhist practice. There is nothing to "achieve."
Beware the "Little Enlightenment" of the craftsman. It is a sticky trap.
Open your eyes.
KFG
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by KFG
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
unseen I like your attitude , you are a role model to me in that aspect
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by banana512
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Speaking as a musician who plays ITM and STM I completely agree that the practise of music is completely in line with the search for buddhahood inside and around yourself.
Music is my passion and I am currently involved in making an album with my band. This process has brought up all sorts of negativity including doubts about my own abilities. Of course all these negativities are in me and I have to deal with them and understand them.
The practise of music and and realising buddhahood are very similar. You spend years looking for something that was there all the time. You just have to believe!
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by scotfiddle
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Thanks Anna. I do not practice to get better I play to have fun and often the two occur at the same time. With enough patience we will all gain our own style and become a "good" player which is what we all strive for in the beggining. It seems to me that when I became a good player I didn't realize it, until a bunch of other players who I admired told me or other people who later told me that I was good. I hate snobs, I absolutly hate people who feel the need to go around thinking they are better than everyone else. At one of the first Sessions I ever attended I was trying to learn a tune while everyone was playing it, the person next to me stops playing and says "do you know this tune?" I answer "No," she says "well then don't play." I knew that that was not how a session went even if it was only the second or third I had ever been to, I have not talked to that person or that group again as they are snobs. You will also notice that the good players who are humble about their playing tend to hang around with each other, and on further thought those seem to be the people I sit next to at sessions. Of course I am realizing most of this as I type.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
Better to seek enlightenment through music than beer. Those that seek enlightenment in beer end up sadder budweiser.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Q
Re: Self-Actualized Musicianhood
It's a good thing you're in London . . .and I'm not.
KFG
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by KFG