This is not intended to be a debate on whether the use of marijuana is a good thing or a bad thing. If you are against it, pretend this thread never existed.
For those still reading, do you find being high while playing and/or listening to traditional music to be a good experience?
I never used to smoke while playing, but recently I've been thoroughly enjoying playing while lightly under the influence. I dont find any negative affects in my playing, and I enjoy the music much more than after having a few pints.
well I definatly play better after a couple joints then after drinking 6 pints....
but I'd also rather have a few beers if I'm at a session with other people (specially ones I dont know) it just way more of a social substance than pot is. around the campfire in the middle of the woods is a time for both though ;)
I gave up the weed after taking up playing ITM. I found it affected my short-term memory too much. I suppose if the tunes were already burned into my head I could have coped better. On the other hand, playing other styles of music was enhanced with the herb. And hashish was practically a necessity when I played Middle Eastern music. However, after not indulging now for a couple of decades, if I even sit in a room where folks are smoking I'll get lost on the drive home.
It's ok now and again I suppose
When your feeling down the only way is up
And when your getting high off the joint, fumes or fragrance, sky is the limit MAAAANNNN !
I play in a session in a pub where the oul fellas outside smoking would not indulge in such behaviour (i think) so it would be going out of my way to have a smoke. However, at home, while playing to myself i find it has an easing effect from the normal tensinos of trying to work out a difficult tune
The word I had many years ago from a musician I respected was that on anything more than the mildest stuff you just had to hope that no-one was recording it, because it was always crap on playback, no matter how good it seemed at the time.. "Beware the stuff with the five gold stars of Nepal"was one of his mottoes for mixing music and dope.
I suppose this does correlate reasonably closely with alcohol - small quantities relax one, maintaining this low level during music-making keeps one happy, but uping the intoxication level produces a downward spiral of performance, even if not apparent to the performer.
I had the bad luck to be present at one of the final gigs of an early and seminal irish folk-band ( no names, no pack-drill ). It was obvious with hindsight that they'd gone out for a few tokes at half-time, and only got through about three numbers in the second half, what with frequent re-tuning, telling each other jokes we didn't get, etc..
Best keep it off-stage, and strictly recreational is my advice.
When the notes start a flowin
And your brain starts a glowin
To didle rap didle
Of the rivered tune
Well there aint no place
Like that inner space
Where the spirit grows
Like the bush in bloom
Time means nothing
Self means less
The imminent moment conquers
Emotions express
Anchored in the Dream Time
Gripped by a tear
Dancing down the skyways
I once found myself sitting like an idiot at the session unable to put the fiddle under my chin because it had grown far too big to fit there anymore. It was like double bass size, huge! Then the punter who regularly unnerved me by overlooking me at the pub appeared at the top of the hill on the cycle path home. I could see my heart thumping as I peddled up that hill - then he turned into a tree stump! Nah, not worth it.
Guernsey pete Nailed it on the head when he said " hope nobody is recording it !" , I played in a reggae band for over 10 years , need I say anymore ! ?
It wasn't always crap on playback , in fact it was often good , but in hindsight sober sessions were much better. Your senses are definitely dulled & as regards the loss of short term thingy bob, what do you call it , er um , oh yeh memory , that was it. It's true !!!!
Well, it's like
you know when you
no, we'll get there in the end
I mean
last Wednesday I played the second half of the Knotted Chord after the first half of the Bag of Spuds
That was after a pint of Guinness
I mean
what chance would I have?
really
Come on
I heard of an old-timey mountain banjo picker, playing at a festival immediately after a Californian band who used to rehearse everything at half speed, who opined "I reckon youse West-Coast dudes oughtta smoke less of that marry-awana and drink more God-fearrin' corn likker."
In Ceasar " De bello gallico" there are a few sentences about some druids which sit in a 'covered hole', a lot of smoke is coming out of the place and they do sing strange songs .... So either cannabis is an old celtic practice or the druids were the first rastafara
I have never been able to tolerate any kind of smoke in or around my body; and the smallest amount of alcohol now goes straight to my fingertips, so its cold sober or nothing when I'm playing.
Of course, someone did once recommend cannabis cookies.......
Here in Ontario it is illegal to smoke in the pubs. The quantity and people definitely play a role, the wrong crowd and I cant play properly while on the stuff. But in certain, more laid back sessions the nervousness it sometimes produces never comes in. Sometimes find ourselves playing the butterfly for far too long.
I definitely agree with Copo24 and others, there often are adverse affects when playing, but at the right session, or when playing at home with friends and the quality of the playing is not the focus, it definitely adds a new level of enjoyment. Not good for performance purposes, I agree.
I don't mind the odd toke of the quair shtuff, but I wouldn't want to be blasted out of my tree while trying to lead a set of tunes....I'd lose my place altogether.
But not wishing to be a killjoy, I wouldn't want our comments here to influence any young teenage and adolescent aspirant players, not just for token moral reasons, but real psychiatric reasons. Recently, reports have been coming out that there is a huge increase in incidence of schizophrenia among people who had used cannabis during adolescence and young adulthood. It is thought, something along the lines of, that as the adolescent brain goes through a second surge of development (the first and major one in infanthood), exposure to psychotropic agents will alter normal neuronal circuitry development.
Robin Murray at the IOP recently completed a 15-year study substantiating other eg the oft-quoted Swedish Army study: http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/cannabis.marijuana.schizophrenia.html
Prof. Murray is not some grumpy old killjoy fuddy-duddy, but is a kind, warm, caring and very dignified man, and has recently made many TV and Radio 4 appearances explaining his findings.
Any younger readers of this thread please, please take heed. Schizophrenia is not just a bad trip - it is a life sentence - often accompanied with extreme paranoia, delusions, auditory and occasionally visual hallucinations; also sufferers can have endogenous (ie, caused by the illness itself) depression as well as exogenous (caused by *knowing* you have the illness) depression. Disordered thought processes (such as you get when you're really stoned...all very well when you're out with the lads on a Saturday night but do you want to be like that when you go to work?), so often they fall out of employment..so that means you can't buy a house, a car...or even a new instrument!
All I'm saying to younger readers is: Go easy, or don't bother with the spliffs, until you're 18-21. I mean it, big time.
once a buddy and I played slightly toasted, it was a good time. We did this kinda free slow thing, that im sure we wouldn;t have done as well sober.However I wouldn;t do it around sober people, and I much prefer playing sober, though pot does allow you to loosen up a bit. Then again I think music would be fun to play while being under the influence of just about anything, cause granted at the end of the day music is awesome to play regaurdless of the context you play it in.
I understand one of the basic differences between tobacco and cannabis is that the active principle of tobacco (nicotine, which is water-soluble) is fairly quickly excreted after ingestion, whereas the corresponding alkaloid in cannabis is fat-soluble and tends to stay in the brain tissues for ages. Also, cannabis today is about 10 times stronger than the stuff they smoked back in the flower-power days of the 60's, so the long-term effects are that much more marked. There are today quite a number of young(ish) people in psychiatric hospitals who have been heavy users of cannabis - presumably their psychiatric problems are connected with the build-up of today's stronger stuff in the brain.
As with smoking tobacco, I suppose one may expect similar long-term circulatory, breathing and cancer problems with smoking cannabis.
Right, Trevor, but that's just how it long hangs around, but of course you're right. Traditionally there are 3 psychoactive agents: Delta-3-tetrahydrocannabinol, Delta-6-THC and Delta-9. Correct me if I've forgotten but off the top of my head Delta-9-THC is the most psychotropic, or hallucinogenic, or even schizophrenigenic. Grass has the highest proportion of Delta 9THC, and I guess, as you correctly pointed out the more modern, genetically engineered (Yes, Genetically Engineered!) weed like Skunk contains even more Delta-9 and who knows what else. These new weeds are far too strong for an old timer like me, trying to hang on to my few remaining marbles. In any case I mostly don't bother, but just take a cheeky puff if someone offers.
As you say, although asthma sufferers say the weed helps, lets be realistic, like alcohol and tobacco, long term use leads to health problems...oh, and frequent use *severely* lowers your immune response to virus infection, so if you have cold, flu, herpes, HIV, glandular fever or any other virus, leave the weed alone.
The scientists who say cannabis is harmful all work for large pharmacutical firms, who are selling serious drugs, such as tamazapan, prozac, mogadon and valium, and stand to lose billions if cannabis replaced all of these.
For music grass is the stuff, but over here you mostly get soap bar which is ok, but not like grass.
Skunk would blow the head of you if used all the time in big quantities, or so my children tell me, but as an alcoholic, believe me, blow is a lot less harmful than cannabis.
If we were to really classify drugs for harmfulness, class A is cigarettes, class B is drink, and class C is heroin. Yes heroin comes third.
Of course, there are likely to be some health consequences to taking anything psychoactive or smoking anything. I would encourage any teenager to leave the stuff alone, but if you're interested in understanding the evidence that the arguments are built around, you have to do some digging and a lot of reading.
One of the first things you learn is that the reports that make it into the news are almost always the most sensational and are often preliminary results interpreted for the most shock value. What never makes it into the mass media are the subsequent reviews of the research and the careful follow-up work that often fails to replicate the findings.
Here's what the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences reported: "Daily cigarette smoking among adolescent boys is more strongly associated with psychiatric disorders than is any use of illicit substances."
Not long ago, there was a report that smoking pot increases the risk of heart attack. If you dig into this, you find that the risk is about the same as the risk of heart attack from having sex or exercising. If you're going to have a heart attack, of course it's more likely to happen while your heart is working harder.
A good scary myth sells more newspapers than boring science. It's like the "crack baby" story from the 80's. The first reports were hysterical - literally. When real scientists finally worked through the details, the whole thing evaporated. It was all attributable to simple neglect and to a combination of alcohol and other drug use by the pregnant mothers. And when researchers fed large doses of cocaine to pregnant chimpanzees, predicting sickly babies with low birth weight, they found no such thing. The only significant difference from normal chimps was a slightly *increased* birth weight. But the myth lives on and there are women in prison now for the crime of using cocaine during pregnancy.
The US Drug War folks reported that today's pot is seven to ten times as strong as in the 60's. A more honest study estimates that it's only four times as strong. Whatever. Doesn't that just mean you smoke less for the same effect?
I don't do pot. I just believe it's important to consider the facts without the hype. Some of the most destructive public policy in US history has been based on drug scare stories and politicised science.
I shake my head in disbelief. It's like reading that mad woman Melanie wotsherface ...erm, Phillips at the Daily Mail, saying there's no such thing as global warming. BB and Bob, did you follow the link on my previous thread through to the schizophrenia website? I strongly recommend you do before you make any more ill-informed complacent comments.
Say no more.
a well known backer from the west of Ireland once told me ,after a session on extremely strong grass that he kept thinking the neck of his instrument was getting longer and longer the more he smoked that night.He needed king kong arms by the end of the night!!!!
BB, scientists working in the tobacco industry were aware many years ago of the harmful effect cannabis has on the brain. They weren't working for the pharmaceutical companies.
Was this discussion really supposed to be about protecting children (okay, adolescents) from the damage marijuana will do to them? Wasn't this supposed to be about adults indulging or not indulging in something that might or might not improve their playing?
There are plenty of things that a reasonable adult can deal with that teenagers and young adults are not equipped to cope with. The schizophrenia site linked to here is completely valid, but quite frankly, should be beside the point for the comment that began this discussion. If 'weed' were replaced by 'alcohol,' would this have turned into a thread about saving children? And yet, teenage alcoholism is a much more widespread and deadly problem.
You can't use potency levels on their own to determine the damaging effects of marijuana. People smoked that Mexican crap by the bushel back in the 60s. High potency, in addition to the skyrocketing costs, have changed the way it is consumed. You know, kind of like, you can drink three pints of beer in a sitting, but would you ever drink three pints of whiskey in a sitting?
Finally, let's have a big round of applause for the scientists working in the tobacco industry. Ever on the alert for the public good, they are.
I personally feel that good music is complete in itself and needs no short cuts - the same goes for good musicians, for me personally.
I also find the statement above that heroin is less harmful than cigs or booze to be just incredible. Unbelievable.
Good luck
Once I had a workshop with American blues guitarist Ernie Hawkins. Late the night before, I had partaken in some particularly potent grass. The residual vestiges of it were still in full effect the next morning, and waking up early for the workshop didn't help the situation. So off I go to take a lesson with one of the greatest blues players in America today.
Perhaps you can guess where I'm going with this anecdote. I couldn't play at all! Ernie was doing all this fingerpicking stuff in standard and blues tunings and I would be THUNKING away in DADGAD and just noodling. The whole class took turns doing the excercises and when it was my turn, I was still noodling around and they skipped me. Very embarassing indeed.
Moral of the story: grass does nothing to make your life permanently, unalterably BETTER. It simply offers a temporary escape or opportunity to zone out/in, whatever your take on that is...This is not to say that I think smoking grass is "immoral" or necessarily "wrong." Rather, taken in small and periodic doses, it can enhance mood and self. Personally, I would come away from each experience more appreciative of what went on during the experience. However, my faculties were certainly below par when it came to music.
This May will mark a full year that I have been Grass-Free. I'm not saying I will never touch the stuff again, but I am saying that it should never dominate your life. That's what ITM is for! It's never good to make grass into a "crutch" or a "necessity" for enjoyment. I get similar if not better "highs" during hot musical moments.
Ha ha yeah get high on trad indeed. Although marijuana does provide an agreeable high, and does lend a good amound of enjoyment, it is not a very deep experience, while the musical high which some have mentioned and im sure we all have experienced, is a a much deeper and rewarding experience. Thats probably why we all put many hourse into practicing, and playing and often large sums of money into new instruments. Imagine if trad were crack, we'd all be working the streets!
There are no magic potions. Drugs just change the balance of things in your body so that you seem to have more of something (energy, creativity, etc.) but they don't really provide you with anything new or extra. Sure, it can be fun to get a little twisted, but you don't really gain anything by it.
Besides, it's silly to think that a person could do a better job on all those diddly notes after a couple of puffs. This isn't reggae, or long meandering Grateful Dead-style ragas, after all.
Not to mention the health issues. Have you ever taken a good look at the muck that clogs the stem of a well-used pipe? Your mouth, throat, and lungs are an extension of that pipestem. Yuck.
I have always felt sad for those who require chemical alterations to be happy or enjoy more. I would hope rather that the friends and music at sessions would help them overcome whatever problem they had. It is only an illusion that performance is enhanced
I would regret that they would try to infect a wholesome activity by encouraging the use of those substances and discouraging the participation thereby of young people and others who avoid such behaviour. I know I wouldn't take my kids to such a session.
Actually, I know a few folks who would participat in sessions if they weren't taking place in pubs! Even I have a conscience tweak while playing in pubs. I escaped the grip of alcohol a while ago. I would hate to think thay my playing encouraged others to drink more (that didn't come out right, but you know what I mean) I am encouraged, however, that few punters seem affected either way by our being there.
Unattached scientists placed heroin third, after fegs and drink, FOR DAMAGE CAUSED. Stands to reason when you think about it, although I agree it sounds frightening, said he lighting a cigarette.
Not complacent or ill-informed, Danny. I've been following the research (from a safe distance ) and the policy debate - or rather lack of debate - for over twenty years. I warn against accepting at face value any new claim of harm from cannabis because the record has been that the claims are usually overblown, based on weak science or are almost pure propaganda. I've already given examples.
I've taken this position because I came to realize two important facts:
1. The effects of prohibition are massively, devastatingly worse than the effects of the drugs themselves.
2. Support for prohibition is maintained by a well funded propaganda machine that is firmly entrenched within the US government (less so in most other countries).
As a sort of corollary to #2, research aimed at detecting harm from cannabis is encouraged and supported by the government, while research studying the medicinal uses of cannabis is not only discouraged, it is effectively blocked. I had an acquaintance who died as a direct result of having his medicinal marijuana confiscated by the police.
The reported link with schizophrenia may pan out, or not, or may pan out partially. It's too early to tell. Meanwhile, there are countervailing arguments that have to be accounted for, such as
Trevor Turner, consultant psychiatrist at St Bartholomew's Hospital, London, and vice president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists: "First, there has been no increase in schizophrenia in this country despite a massive increase in cannabis smoking. Second, there is no evidence that cannabis-growing populations such as Jamaica have a higher incidence of psychosis. Third, you can show an association [between the drug and the illness] but you can't show a cause."
The cause of keeping kids and teenagers away from drugs is better served, in the long run, by good, patient science than by reflexive fear. The adult world loses credibility with young people when we try to scare them with hobgoblins that never materialize. I think that spreading controversial results like the schizophrenia link falls into this trap. In a few more years, if the finding is solidly supported by good science, I'll help spread it.
There's a very interesting and entertaining chapter in Michael Pollan's book, The Botany of Desire, A Plant's-Eye View of the World, about cannabis; it touches on a lot of these issues.
OK, Bob, maybe I was a bit harsh.....well, in including *you* in the complacent/ill-informed camp :-} Name dropping here, but I know Robin Murray personally (just a little bit, though) and he is a very highly respected figure in his field, and would have no other agenda but publishing scientific fact. Strange that Turner chose Jamaica as an example as the West Indian population in the UK has the highest incidence of schizophrenia of any ethnic group in the UK. Maybe its the culture shock or the weather.
Conversely, my take is better safe than sorry. My 14-year-old daughter is just at the age where she's off to parties, beginning to explore hedonism in its various manifestations. If in the process she has the odd Bacardi Breezer or toke of an amateurishly rolled spliff, so be it. But I would strongly discourage her from habitual use of weed at that age.
Cannabis-induced psychosis from adolescent over use is not a theory that begins and ends with Prof Murray. Many other studies are referred to in that link, so maybe, Bob, the science is already good.
Oh, and JSO, thanks for your contribution, but since when did discussions here stay rigidly on topic? I found out early on in my time here, that they don't. And what's wrong about protecting adolescents from anything, be it cannabis or alcohol. I know some lads who used to take lines of cocaine before playing sessions, but I wouldn't suggest my daughter or her mates did that when they did their band thing (guitars and keyboards.) Nor would I say on a thread here, omigod, I had too many beers last night but bejaysus what a session...and it's fine if your 14-18 as well. Really helps your playing. Don't worry if you get cirrhosis, you'll be 14 again in your next life, which will begin shortly...
Musicians of all stripes seem to be drawn to the 'wacky tibacky'. Anyone who thinks their performance is better whilst stoned, can't be very good to start with! The stuff is best used in a listening rather than performing situation.
Well, it is true that Louis Armstrong, Ray Charles, and many other successful musicians did smoke weed--but I doubt that weed was a significant factor in their success, considering how many other musicians have also smoked it, and gotten nowhere.
That being said, I agree that legal prohibition is a disaster. Driving the whole business underground just makes it profitable enough to get some really bad criminal types involved. The Netherlands doesn't seem to have suffered a complete collapse of civilization because they stopped jailing pot-smokers.
I don’t know if pot enhances my playing of the music. I do know that it is the only thing I have found that eliminates the pain I chronically suffer as a result of the MS. I also know that being pain free allows me to play the music better as the distraction, and it is a big distraction, of the pain is not present.
"cannabis today is about 10 times stronger than the stuff they smoked back in the flower-power days of the 60's"
I wasn't around in the flower power days of the '60s, but a lot of what is around now is 10 times stronger than the stuff I smoked way back in the early '90s. On the odd occasion when I have unsuspectingly smoked weed of the modern, genetically engineered variety whilst playig tunes, I have been barely able to remember where I am, who I am, why I am there, and what this strange contraption in my hands is for, let alone how the tune goes.
West Cork homegrown is the shtuff - grown outdoors, that is. Grown in the same soil that was under the farmers' fingernails when they met after Mass for a tune.
I was around in the "flower-power days of the 60s" and the best weed was called "Acapulco Gold." Then in the summer of 1970 a friend showed up, (in a circa. 1940s milk truck that he converted into his house,) and he told us about this pot growing technique he and his friends came up with where you pinch back the flowers on the plant as it's growing. They called the end result. "Sin Samea" and he had some for us to sample. It made our Acapulco Gold seem like schoolyard candy and forever changed the marijuana landscape from that day forward.
Better for listening than playing, I agree.
After a few good tokes, I just turn into a vegetable, albeit a very happy chilled out and hungry vegetable!
It also allays the neighbours' suspicions if you hang plastic tomatoes on your plants....
A banjo-playing friend of mine who lived with his parents until a few years back was secretly growing a plant in a corner of the back garden. When quizzed by his mum one day on the strange-looking fern in the garden, he replied "Umm, that's an Elmwood plant". Luckily she bought it; he's got his own place now.
It's great for playing and listening and fun in general though I can take it or leave it. Given the price to quality ratio around here I mostly leave it.
However, those of you who state that "good musicians don't use cannabis" would probably have to cut out a surprising amount of musos they had previously thought of as good.
I've just heard on BBC radio that tomorrow Tuesday 24 January at midday (1200GMT) the BBC's Radio 4 consumer affairs programme "You and Yours" will be giving over the whole of its hour-long slot to a debate on cannabis and mental health. You should be able to listen to it live on broadband from the BBC website or to a recording within the next 7 days. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/
"The stuff is best used in a listening rather than performing situation." (You are not playing well unless you are listening. And a session is not a performance)
"It is only an illusion that performance is enhanced". (then why are performance enhancing drugs banned?)
"I personally feel that good music is complete in itself and needs no short cuts" (we're not talking short cuts. You take the low road, I'll take the high road)
I'd rather not waste my time and the general reader's time here - but is it really necessary/helpful/enetertaining to call not one but three different contributors "daft", when to be honest your own replies to them aren't exactly blowing the earth of its axis - I would have thought, and Trevor just said this, that performance-enhancement drugs are banned precisely in areas where there is a definitive and comparison-based result, etc. As for Moylan's comment, it seemed pretty straightforward to me, and he/she never mentioned anything about playing while listening.
As for the high road/low road, I didn't even begin to understand what you were talking about, but I do appreciate your gracious tone.
Nice one, indeed.
I knew about drugs that will increase muscle mass--in exchange for shrinking men's wobbly bits, or growing beards on laides' faces--but was not aware that there were drugs that actually increase intelligence or creativity.
If there were such a thing as a "smart pill" wouldn't we have a lot more geniuses in the world than we do now? I haven't noticed any great improvement in human intelligence lately, overall.
Oh lysurgic acid's great for creativity... like that guy who drew crappy pictures of cats, then started taking LSD and got into fractals... well, fractal cats anyway. They were MUCH better than the earlier cat pictures. Course, he went absolutely stark raving bonkers, but... hey... fractal cats!
FWIW, the effect of propranolol (Inderal) on musical performance has been tested in a double-blind comparison with placebo. A significant improvement was detected. However, this was not direct performance enhancement, but indirect enhancement by decreasing performance anxiety.
Some musicians have reported that cannabis helped them make breakthroughs in their development, like learning to improvise more freely or to get rid of unnecessary tension. Others say they just get lazy and noodle aimlessly. I don’t know of any statistics on this, but I would guess that the aimless noodlers are a large majority.
SL* - I've read about those, they sound like tremendous fun altogether; but from the very little I know about it I believe they don't work for every statement made. But that's life, I suppose.
No big deal, this, and I don't want to bore everyone else to death, so all the best.
This may not be suitable cause for starting a new discussion, but perhaps it can turn into one anyway. I just want to make sure it comes to Michael Gill's attention. The fact is I owe Mr. Gill a sincere (and very embarassed) apology - as SL* pointed out I did in fact COMPLETELY miss the point of a post he made in the Cannabis discussion, and reacted accordingly. God that's embarrassing.
Mr. Gill I'm very sorry - you have open season on me for as long as you like; and thanks SL* for copping me on.
By way of discussion, has this ever happened to anyone else or should I just off myself right now? (Now I feel like I just failed to perform in bed, this is getting worse and worse).
Sorry again, Michael - I'll make sure in future that I don't bring my bad days into this very enjoyable session.
P.S. Sorry again, and sorry everyone that this is completely useless in music terms.
Mr. Hurley, no, of course you're not the only one to have that happen. It's happened to everyone who posts here regularly, including the estimable Mr. Gill, who will now be impossible to deal with for a couple of weeks.
Well, I can't even always figure out what I mean, there are times that I post when I should be sleeping and then I need a translator to figure out what I said and what I meant. . .and I think we're all that way. . .
And as Mr. McDonnell said we'll be hard on you so you don't have too. You get to be hard on us so that we don't have to. . . It's only fair after all . . .
I think Mr. Gill envisions himself as some sort of superhero whose mission is to protect the world from daftness. But he's really more of a Don Quixote that hasn’t yet realized all the ‘daftness’ he fights are only windmills. Don’t tell him – he’s very fragile and might go mad and have to be certified and locked away if he ever found out. Just tolerate him -- like the rest of us do.
Thanks lads - even my apologies are getting me into trouble today, hence the relocation. These Corkmen are very strict... but thanks for not deleting me completely, Jeremy.
(Oh and the whole 'failing to perform in bed' thing - I meant to say that I felt like I IMAGINE someone would feel in that situation, of course......why oh why did I wake up this morning?)
Good luck
Ha ha, I've always identified with the esteemed Don Quixote De la Mancha, one of my favourite books. He's so righteous and convinced of the worth of his romantic ideals, and yet he just keeps getting the sh*t kicked out him. ha ha. There's no problem Mr Hurleystick, it's all just blether.
Cannabis use was certainly associated with the urban Greek subculture that created Rebetika music in the early to mid c20. What effect it had on the players and their real or imagined ability to compose, play, sing or dance I wouldn't know, as I don't touch the stuff. And I wouldn't assume all of them did. But it didn't stop them, or associated producers, creating arresting songs, marvellous tunes and, as far as I know, a completely new rhythm in Greek music (I may be wrong here) - the Zeimbekiko: I think it's in 7/9 (again I might be wrong). It has a thumping, stately beat which has the inevitability of the basic rhythms of Irish or British TM and seems to have been there for ever. (Anyone who's gone to Greece will probably have heard it willy-nilly.)
The rebetika players put the bouzouki firmly into the mainstream of urban Greek popular music, whence composers like Theodorakis got it known internationally. (Their other main stringed instrument, the baglama, remained more obscure.)
Not a bad musical track record for a subculture associated with drugs, crime and indeed poverty and dispossession (many were Greek refugees from Turkey following a failed Greek attack on that country). But not a self-evident demonstration that drug use makes people more creative and capable than they would have been without it.
Cannabis and Traditional Music
Cannabis and Traditional Music
This is not intended to be a debate on whether the use of marijuana is a good thing or a bad thing. If you are against it, pretend this thread never existed.
For those still reading, do you find being high while playing and/or listening to traditional music to be a good experience?
I never used to smoke while playing, but recently I've been thoroughly enjoying playing while lightly under the influence. I dont find any negative affects in my playing, and I enjoy the music much more than after having a few pints.
Give me your thoughts.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
well I definatly play better after a couple joints then after drinking 6 pints....
but I'd also rather have a few beers if I'm at a session with other people (specially ones I dont know) it just way more of a social substance than pot is. around the campfire in the middle of the woods is a time for both though ;)
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by RumRebellion
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I gave up the weed after taking up playing ITM. I found it affected my short-term memory too much. I suppose if the tunes were already burned into my head I could have coped better. On the other hand, playing other styles of music was enhanced with the herb. And hashish was practically a necessity when I played Middle Eastern music. However, after not indulging now for a couple of decades, if I even sit in a room where folks are smoking I'll get lost on the drive home.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
"Dude... you don't advocate drug use on the front page of a family website.
You do it round the back. I'll meet you there." Q
Haha, I love that
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I can explain it all, I'll be back shortly.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
"I dont find any negative affects in my playing"
I don't find any negative effects in my playing when I'm drunk. But others do.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
It's ok now and again I suppose
When your feeling down the only way is up
And when your getting high off the joint, fumes or fragrance, sky is the limit MAAAANNNN !
Free
Peace
Sweet
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I play in a session in a pub where the oul fellas outside smoking would not indulge in such behaviour (i think) so it would be going out of my way to have a smoke. However, at home, while playing to myself i find it has an easing effect from the normal tensinos of trying to work out a difficult tune
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by copo24
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Um, what was the question again?
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Sorry, should be 'tensions'
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by copo24
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
The word I had many years ago from a musician I respected was that on anything more than the mildest stuff you just had to hope that no-one was recording it, because it was always crap on playback, no matter how good it seemed at the time.. "Beware the stuff with the five gold stars of Nepal"was one of his mottoes for mixing music and dope.
I suppose this does correlate reasonably closely with alcohol - small quantities relax one, maintaining this low level during music-making keeps one happy, but uping the intoxication level produces a downward spiral of performance, even if not apparent to the performer.
I had the bad luck to be present at one of the final gigs of an early and seminal irish folk-band ( no names, no pack-drill ). It was obvious with hindsight that they'd gone out for a few tokes at half-time, and only got through about three numbers in the second half, what with frequent re-tuning, telling each other jokes we didn't get, etc..
Best keep it off-stage, and strictly recreational is my advice.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
How about a nice Ice Cream Snickers bar?
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Just a person
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
When the notes start a flowin
And your brain starts a glowin
To didle rap didle
Of the rivered tune
Well there aint no place
Like that inner space
Where the spirit grows
Like the bush in bloom
Time means nothing
Self means less
The imminent moment conquers
Emotions express
Anchored in the Dream Time
Gripped by a tear
Dancing down the skyways
Simple
Pure
Clear
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
What did Miko Russell say when he looked out at the Aran Islands?
Far out dude!
he he he ha ha haa
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by endaman
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I once found myself sitting like an idiot at the session unable to put the fiddle under my chin because it had grown far too big to fit there anymore. It was like double bass size, huge! Then the punter who regularly unnerved me by overlooking me at the pub appeared at the top of the hill on the cycle path home. I could see my heart thumping as I peddled up that hill - then he turned into a tree stump! Nah, not worth it.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Smoke as much of it as you like but do the decent thing and go outside. The same applies for smoking regular cigarettes or anything else.
If it does affect your playing, you may not notice but others will. It's up to them whether they'll tolerate the deterioration in your playing or not.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by John J.
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Guernsey pete Nailed it on the head when he said " hope nobody is recording it !" , I played in a reggae band for over 10 years , need I say anymore ! ?
It wasn't always crap on playback , in fact it was often good , but in hindsight sober sessions were much better. Your senses are definitely dulled & as regards the loss of short term thingy bob, what do you call it , er um , oh yeh memory , that was it. It's true !!!!
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Eamonn Croke
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
The Smokey House - a good reel.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Well, it's like
you know when you
no, we'll get there in the end
I mean
last Wednesday I played the second half of the Knotted Chord after the first half of the Bag of Spuds
That was after a pint of Guinness
I mean
what chance would I have?
really
Come on
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I heard of an old-timey mountain banjo picker, playing at a festival immediately after a Californian band who used to rehearse everything at half speed, who opined "I reckon youse West-Coast dudes oughtta smoke less of that marry-awana and drink more God-fearrin' corn likker."
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
What were we just talking about?
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
yeahhhhh.......
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by AEisenheim
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
In Ceasar " De bello gallico" there are a few sentences about some druids which sit in a 'covered hole', a lot of smoke is coming out of the place and they do sing strange songs .... So either cannabis is an old celtic practice or the druids were the first rastafara
Urs
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by swisspiper
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I have never been able to tolerate any kind of smoke in or around my body; and the smallest amount of alcohol now goes straight to my fingertips, so its cold sober or nothing when I'm playing.
Of course, someone did once recommend cannabis cookies.......
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Here in Ontario it is illegal to smoke in the pubs. The quantity and people definitely play a role, the wrong crowd and I cant play properly while on the stuff. But in certain, more laid back sessions the nervousness it sometimes produces never comes in. Sometimes find ourselves playing the butterfly for far too long.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I definitely agree with Copo24 and others, there often are adverse affects when playing, but at the right session, or when playing at home with friends and the quality of the playing is not the focus, it definitely adds a new level of enjoyment. Not good for performance purposes, I agree.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I don't mind the odd toke of the quair shtuff, but I wouldn't want to be blasted out of my tree while trying to lead a set of tunes....I'd lose my place altogether.
But not wishing to be a killjoy, I wouldn't want our comments here to influence any young teenage and adolescent aspirant players, not just for token moral reasons, but real psychiatric reasons. Recently, reports have been coming out that there is a huge increase in incidence of schizophrenia among people who had used cannabis during adolescence and young adulthood. It is thought, something along the lines of, that as the adolescent brain goes through a second surge of development (the first and major one in infanthood), exposure to psychotropic agents will alter normal neuronal circuitry development.
Robin Murray at the IOP recently completed a 15-year study substantiating other eg the oft-quoted Swedish Army study:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/cannabis.marijuana.schizophrenia.html
Prof. Murray is not some grumpy old killjoy fuddy-duddy, but is a kind, warm, caring and very dignified man, and has recently made many TV and Radio 4 appearances explaining his findings.
Any younger readers of this thread please, please take heed. Schizophrenia is not just a bad trip - it is a life sentence - often accompanied with extreme paranoia, delusions, auditory and occasionally visual hallucinations; also sufferers can have endogenous (ie, caused by the illness itself) depression as well as exogenous (caused by *knowing* you have the illness) depression. Disordered thought processes (such as you get when you're really stoned...all very well when you're out with the lads on a Saturday night but do you want to be like that when you go to work?), so often they fall out of employment..so that means you can't buy a house, a car...or even a new instrument!
All I'm saying to younger readers is: Go easy, or don't bother with the spliffs, until you're 18-21. I mean it, big time.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
once a buddy and I played slightly toasted, it was a good time. We did this kinda free slow thing, that im sure we wouldn;t have done as well sober.However I wouldn;t do it around sober people, and I much prefer playing sober, though pot does allow you to loosen up a bit. Then again I think music would be fun to play while being under the influence of just about anything, cause granted at the end of the day music is awesome to play regaurdless of the context you play it in.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by banana512
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I understand one of the basic differences between tobacco and cannabis is that the active principle of tobacco (nicotine, which is water-soluble) is fairly quickly excreted after ingestion, whereas the corresponding alkaloid in cannabis is fat-soluble and tends to stay in the brain tissues for ages. Also, cannabis today is about 10 times stronger than the stuff they smoked back in the flower-power days of the 60's, so the long-term effects are that much more marked. There are today quite a number of young(ish) people in psychiatric hospitals who have been heavy users of cannabis - presumably their psychiatric problems are connected with the build-up of today's stronger stuff in the brain.
As with smoking tobacco, I suppose one may expect similar long-term circulatory, breathing and cancer problems with smoking cannabis.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Ah, I see I've cross-posted with Danny in a similar area of discussion.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Right, Trevor, but that's just how it long hangs around, but of course you're right. Traditionally there are 3 psychoactive agents: Delta-3-tetrahydrocannabinol, Delta-6-THC and Delta-9. Correct me if I've forgotten but off the top of my head Delta-9-THC is the most psychotropic, or hallucinogenic, or even schizophrenigenic. Grass has the highest proportion of Delta 9THC, and I guess, as you correctly pointed out the more modern, genetically engineered (Yes, Genetically Engineered!) weed like Skunk contains even more Delta-9 and who knows what else. These new weeds are far too strong for an old timer like me, trying to hang on to my few remaining marbles. In any case I mostly don't bother, but just take a cheeky puff if someone offers.
As you say, although asthma sufferers say the weed helps, lets be realistic, like alcohol and tobacco, long term use leads to health problems...oh, and frequent use *severely* lowers your immune response to virus infection, so if you have cold, flu, herpes, HIV, glandular fever or any other virus, leave the weed alone.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
The scientists who say cannabis is harmful all work for large pharmacutical firms, who are selling serious drugs, such as tamazapan, prozac, mogadon and valium, and stand to lose billions if cannabis replaced all of these.
For music grass is the stuff, but over here you mostly get soap bar which is ok, but not like grass.
Skunk would blow the head of you if used all the time in big quantities, or so my children tell me, but as an alcoholic, believe me, blow is a lot less harmful than cannabis.
If we were to really classify drugs for harmfulness, class A is cigarettes, class B is drink, and class C is heroin. Yes heroin comes third.
Blow enhances all "feeling" musicians.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Of course, there are likely to be some health consequences to taking anything psychoactive or smoking anything. I would encourage any teenager to leave the stuff alone, but if you're interested in understanding the evidence that the arguments are built around, you have to do some digging and a lot of reading.
One of the first things you learn is that the reports that make it into the news are almost always the most sensational and are often preliminary results interpreted for the most shock value. What never makes it into the mass media are the subsequent reviews of the research and the careful follow-up work that often fails to replicate the findings.
Here's what the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences reported: "Daily cigarette smoking among adolescent boys is more strongly associated with psychiatric disorders than is any use of illicit substances."
Not long ago, there was a report that smoking pot increases the risk of heart attack. If you dig into this, you find that the risk is about the same as the risk of heart attack from having sex or exercising. If you're going to have a heart attack, of course it's more likely to happen while your heart is working harder.
A good scary myth sells more newspapers than boring science. It's like the "crack baby" story from the 80's. The first reports were hysterical - literally. When real scientists finally worked through the details, the whole thing evaporated. It was all attributable to simple neglect and to a combination of alcohol and other drug use by the pregnant mothers. And when researchers fed large doses of cocaine to pregnant chimpanzees, predicting sickly babies with low birth weight, they found no such thing. The only significant difference from normal chimps was a slightly *increased* birth weight. But the myth lives on and there are women in prison now for the crime of using cocaine during pregnancy.
The US Drug War folks reported that today's pot is seven to ten times as strong as in the 60's. A more honest study estimates that it's only four times as strong. Whatever. Doesn't that just mean you smoke less for the same effect?
I don't do pot. I just believe it's important to consider the facts without the hype. Some of the most destructive public policy in US history has been based on drug scare stories and politicised science.
Apologies for soapboxing.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
good call, danny mackay.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I shake my head in disbelief. It's like reading that mad woman Melanie wotsherface ...erm, Phillips at the Daily Mail, saying there's no such thing as global warming. BB and Bob, did you follow the link on my previous thread through to the schizophrenia website? I strongly recommend you do before you make any more ill-informed complacent comments.
Say no more.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
a well known backer from the west of Ireland once told me ,after a session on extremely strong grass that he kept thinking the neck of his instrument was getting longer and longer the more he smoked that night.He needed king kong arms by the end of the night!!!!
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by downey
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
BB, scientists working in the tobacco industry were aware many years ago of the harmful effect cannabis has on the brain. They weren't working for the pharmaceutical companies.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Was this discussion really supposed to be about protecting children (okay, adolescents) from the damage marijuana will do to them? Wasn't this supposed to be about adults indulging or not indulging in something that might or might not improve their playing?
There are plenty of things that a reasonable adult can deal with that teenagers and young adults are not equipped to cope with. The schizophrenia site linked to here is completely valid, but quite frankly, should be beside the point for the comment that began this discussion. If 'weed' were replaced by 'alcohol,' would this have turned into a thread about saving children? And yet, teenage alcoholism is a much more widespread and deadly problem.
You can't use potency levels on their own to determine the damaging effects of marijuana. People smoked that Mexican crap by the bushel back in the 60s. High potency, in addition to the skyrocketing costs, have changed the way it is consumed. You know, kind of like, you can drink three pints of beer in a sitting, but would you ever drink three pints of whiskey in a sitting?
Finally, let's have a big round of applause for the scientists working in the tobacco industry. Ever on the alert for the public good, they are.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by JSO
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I personally feel that good music is complete in itself and needs no short cuts - the same goes for good musicians, for me personally.
I also find the statement above that heroin is less harmful than cigs or booze to be just incredible. Unbelievable.
Good luck
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Once I had a workshop with American blues guitarist Ernie Hawkins. Late the night before, I had partaken in some particularly potent grass. The residual vestiges of it were still in full effect the next morning, and waking up early for the workshop didn't help the situation. So off I go to take a lesson with one of the greatest blues players in America today.
Perhaps you can guess where I'm going with this anecdote. I couldn't play at all! Ernie was doing all this fingerpicking stuff in standard and blues tunings and I would be THUNKING away in DADGAD and just noodling. The whole class took turns doing the excercises and when it was my turn, I was still noodling around and they skipped me. Very embarassing indeed.
Moral of the story: grass does nothing to make your life permanently, unalterably BETTER. It simply offers a temporary escape or opportunity to zone out/in, whatever your take on that is...This is not to say that I think smoking grass is "immoral" or necessarily "wrong." Rather, taken in small and periodic doses, it can enhance mood and self. Personally, I would come away from each experience more appreciative of what went on during the experience. However, my faculties were certainly below par when it came to music.
This May will mark a full year that I have been Grass-Free. I'm not saying I will never touch the stuff again, but I am saying that it should never dominate your life. That's what ITM is for! It's never good to make grass into a "crutch" or a "necessity" for enjoyment. I get similar if not better "highs" during hot musical moments.
So, I guess my message is, "Get high on TRAD"
Sean Earnest
Camp Hill, PA, USA
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by DADGADLad
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Ha ha yeah get high on trad indeed. Although marijuana does provide an agreeable high, and does lend a good amound of enjoyment, it is not a very deep experience, while the musical high which some have mentioned and im sure we all have experienced, is a a much deeper and rewarding experience. Thats probably why we all put many hourse into practicing, and playing and often large sums of money into new instruments. Imagine if trad were crack, we'd all be working the streets!
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
yikes, if you say "get high on TRAD" the U.S. drug enforcement people will be on us in a minute. ssssshhhhhh.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by full measure
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
There are no magic potions. Drugs just change the balance of things in your body so that you seem to have more of something (energy, creativity, etc.) but they don't really provide you with anything new or extra. Sure, it can be fun to get a little twisted, but you don't really gain anything by it.
Besides, it's silly to think that a person could do a better job on all those diddly notes after a couple of puffs. This isn't reggae, or long meandering Grateful Dead-style ragas, after all.
Not to mention the health issues. Have you ever taken a good look at the muck that clogs the stem of a well-used pipe? Your mouth, throat, and lungs are an extension of that pipestem. Yuck.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by John Galt
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I have always felt sad for those who require chemical alterations to be happy or enjoy more. I would hope rather that the friends and music at sessions would help them overcome whatever problem they had. It is only an illusion that performance is enhanced
I would regret that they would try to infect a wholesome activity by encouraging the use of those substances and discouraging the participation thereby of young people and others who avoid such behaviour. I know I wouldn't take my kids to such a session.
Actually, I know a few folks who would participat in sessions if they weren't taking place in pubs! Even I have a conscience tweak while playing in pubs. I escaped the grip of alcohol a while ago. I would hate to think thay my playing encouraged others to drink more (that didn't come out right, but you know what I mean) I am encouraged, however, that few punters seem affected either way by our being there.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by feardearg
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Unattached scientists placed heroin third, after fegs and drink, FOR DAMAGE CAUSED. Stands to reason when you think about it, although I agree it sounds frightening, said he lighting a cigarette.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Not complacent or ill-informed, Danny. I've been following the research (from a safe distance
) and the policy debate - or rather lack of debate - for over twenty years. I warn against accepting at face value any new claim of harm from cannabis because the record has been that the claims are usually overblown, based on weak science or are almost pure propaganda. I've already given examples.
I've taken this position because I came to realize two important facts:
1. The effects of prohibition are massively, devastatingly worse than the effects of the drugs themselves.
2. Support for prohibition is maintained by a well funded propaganda machine that is firmly entrenched within the US government (less so in most other countries).
As a sort of corollary to #2, research aimed at detecting harm from cannabis is encouraged and supported by the government, while research studying the medicinal uses of cannabis is not only discouraged, it is effectively blocked. I had an acquaintance who died as a direct result of having his medicinal marijuana confiscated by the police.
The reported link with schizophrenia may pan out, or not, or may pan out partially. It's too early to tell. Meanwhile, there are countervailing arguments that have to be accounted for, such as
Trevor Turner, consultant psychiatrist at St Bartholomew's Hospital, London, and vice president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists: "First, there has been no increase in schizophrenia in this country despite a massive increase in cannabis smoking. Second, there is no evidence that cannabis-growing populations such as Jamaica have a higher incidence of psychosis. Third, you can show an association [between the drug and the illness] but you can't show a cause."
The cause of keeping kids and teenagers away from drugs is better served, in the long run, by good, patient science than by reflexive fear. The adult world loses credibility with young people when we try to scare them with hobgoblins that never materialize. I think that spreading controversial results like the schizophrenia link falls into this trap. In a few more years, if the finding is solidly supported by good science, I'll help spread it.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
There's a very interesting and entertaining chapter in Michael Pollan's book, The Botany of Desire, A Plant's-Eye View of the World, about cannabis; it touches on a lot of these issues.
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
OK, Bob, maybe I was a bit harsh.....well, in including *you* in the complacent/ill-informed camp :-} Name dropping here, but I know Robin Murray personally (just a little bit, though) and he is a very highly respected figure in his field, and would have no other agenda but publishing scientific fact. Strange that Turner chose Jamaica as an example as the West Indian population in the UK has the highest incidence of schizophrenia of any ethnic group in the UK. Maybe its the culture shock or the weather.
Conversely, my take is better safe than sorry. My 14-year-old daughter is just at the age where she's off to parties, beginning to explore hedonism in its various manifestations. If in the process she has the odd Bacardi Breezer or toke of an amateurishly rolled spliff, so be it. But I would strongly discourage her from habitual use of weed at that age.
Cannabis-induced psychosis from adolescent over use is not a theory that begins and ends with Prof Murray. Many other studies are referred to in that link, so maybe, Bob, the science is already good.
Oh, and JSO, thanks for your contribution, but since when did discussions here stay rigidly on topic? I found out early on in my time here, that they don't. And what's wrong about protecting adolescents from anything, be it cannabis or alcohol. I know some lads who used to take lines of cocaine before playing sessions, but I wouldn't suggest my daughter or her mates did that when they did their band thing (guitars and keyboards.) Nor would I say on a thread here, omigod, I had too many beers last night but bejaysus what a session...and it's fine if your 14-18 as well. Really helps your playing. Don't worry if you get cirrhosis, you'll be 14 again in your next life, which will begin shortly...
# Posted on January 21st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Musicians of all stripes seem to be drawn to the 'wacky tibacky'. Anyone who thinks their performance is better whilst stoned, can't be very good to start with! The stuff is best used in a listening rather than performing situation.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Moylan
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Well, it is true that Louis Armstrong, Ray Charles, and many other successful musicians did smoke weed--but I doubt that weed was a significant factor in their success, considering how many other musicians have also smoked it, and gotten nowhere.
That being said, I agree that legal prohibition is a disaster. Driving the whole business underground just makes it profitable enough to get some really bad criminal types involved. The Netherlands doesn't seem to have suffered a complete collapse of civilization because they stopped jailing pot-smokers.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by John Galt
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I don’t know if pot enhances my playing of the music. I do know that it is the only thing I have found that eliminates the pain I chronically suffer as a result of the MS. I also know that being pain free allows me to play the music better as the distraction, and it is a big distraction, of the pain is not present.
The rest I’ll let you debate.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by ejsant
Never accept spliffs from strangers
"cannabis today is about 10 times stronger than the stuff they smoked back in the flower-power days of the 60's"
I wasn't around in the flower power days of the '60s, but a lot of what is around now is 10 times stronger than the stuff I smoked way back in the early '90s. On the odd occasion when I have unsuspectingly smoked weed of the modern, genetically engineered variety whilst playig tunes, I have been barely able to remember where I am, who I am, why I am there, and what this strange contraption in my hands is for, let alone how the tune goes.
West Cork homegrown is the shtuff - grown outdoors, that is. Grown in the same soil that was under the farmers' fingernails when they met after Mass for a tune.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I was around in the "flower-power days of the 60s" and the best weed was called "Acapulco Gold." Then in the summer of 1970 a friend showed up, (in a circa. 1940s milk truck that he converted into his house,) and he told us about this pot growing technique he and his friends came up with where you pinch back the flowers on the plant as it's growing. They called the end result. "Sin Samea" and he had some for us to sample. It made our Acapulco Gold seem like schoolyard candy and forever changed the marijuana landscape from that day forward.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Better for listening than playing, I agree.
After a few good tokes, I just turn into a vegetable, albeit a very happy chilled out and hungry vegetable!
It also allays the neighbours' suspicions if you hang plastic tomatoes on your plants....
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Wurzel
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
PB,
You gotta read the Michael Pollan book - if you haven't yet...
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
lol@plastic tomatoes
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Q
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
A banjo-playing friend of mine who lived with his parents until a few years back was secretly growing a plant in a corner of the back garden. When quizzed by his mum one day on the strange-looking fern in the garden, he replied "Umm, that's an Elmwood plant". Luckily she bought it; he's got his own place now.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
It's great for playing and listening and fun in general though I can take it or leave it. Given the price to quality ratio around here I mostly leave it.
However, those of you who state that "good musicians don't use cannabis" would probably have to cut out a surprising amount of musos they had previously thought of as good.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by SL*
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I've just heard on BBC radio that tomorrow Tuesday 24 January at midday (1200GMT) the BBC's Radio 4 consumer affairs programme "You and Yours" will be giving over the whole of its hour-long slot to a debate on cannabis and mental health. You should be able to listen to it live on broadband from the BBC website or to a recording within the next 7 days. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Just a smattering of daft things so far:
"The stuff is best used in a listening rather than performing situation." (You are not playing well unless you are listening. And a session is not a performance)
"It is only an illusion that performance is enhanced". (then why are performance enhancing drugs banned?)
"I personally feel that good music is complete in itself and needs no short cuts" (we're not talking short cuts. You take the low road, I'll take the high road)
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
HA! Nice one, Michael.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Q
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I wonder if this discussion sets a record for additions while on p 3, and if it does, what does that mean?
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by full measure
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
When people talk about "performance enhancing drugs" I alwayscassociate the phrase with athletics and sport in general, not music performance.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
"always associate" - not ""alwayscassociate", of course.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Mr. Gill,
I'd rather not waste my time and the general reader's time here - but is it really necessary/helpful/enetertaining to call not one but three different contributors "daft", when to be honest your own replies to them aren't exactly blowing the earth of its axis - I would have thought, and Trevor just said this, that performance-enhancement drugs are banned precisely in areas where there is a definitive and comparison-based result, etc. As for Moylan's comment, it seemed pretty straightforward to me, and he/she never mentioned anything about playing while listening.
As for the high road/low road, I didn't even begin to understand what you were talking about, but I do appreciate your gracious tone.
Nice one, indeed.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I knew about drugs that will increase muscle mass--in exchange for shrinking men's wobbly bits, or growing beards on laides' faces--but was not aware that there were drugs that actually increase intelligence or creativity.
If there were such a thing as a "smart pill" wouldn't we have a lot more geniuses in the world than we do now? I haven't noticed any great improvement in human intelligence lately, overall.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by John Galt
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Oh lysurgic acid's great for creativity... like that guy who drew crappy pictures of cats, then started taking LSD and got into fractals... well, fractal cats anyway. They were MUCH better than the earlier cat pictures. Course, he went absolutely stark raving bonkers, but... hey... fractal cats!
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Q
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Hurleystick.
I found Mr. Gill's comments very entertaining.
Perhaps they require a sense of humour.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by SL*
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
FWIW, the effect of propranolol (Inderal) on musical performance has been tested in a double-blind comparison with placebo. A significant improvement was detected. However, this was not direct performance enhancement, but indirect enhancement by decreasing performance anxiety.
Some musicians have reported that cannabis helped them make breakthroughs in their development, like learning to improvise more freely or to get rid of unnecessary tension. Others say they just get lazy and noodle aimlessly. I don’t know of any statistics on this, but I would guess that the aimless noodlers are a large majority.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
My question is: What do you get if you combine ITM with Viagra?
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Moving right along...
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
I guess you would be the man to ask, Jack.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
SL* - I've read about those, they sound like tremendous fun altogether; but from the very little I know about it I believe they don't work for every statement made. But that's life, I suppose.
No big deal, this, and I don't want to bore everyone else to death, so all the best.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Ok... I'll guess first. You get a piano accordion?
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Well it seems that of the two of us I've got the bigger instrument between my knees...
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Sorry about that
This may not be suitable cause for starting a new discussion, but perhaps it can turn into one anyway. I just want to make sure it comes to Michael Gill's attention. The fact is I owe Mr. Gill a sincere (and very embarassed) apology - as SL* pointed out I did in fact COMPLETELY miss the point of a post he made in the Cannabis discussion, and reacted accordingly. God that's embarrassing.
Mr. Gill I'm very sorry - you have open season on me for as long as you like; and thanks SL* for copping me on.
By way of discussion, has this ever happened to anyone else or should I just off myself right now? (Now I feel like I just failed to perform in bed, this is getting worse and worse).
Sorry again, Michael - I'll make sure in future that I don't bring my bad days into this very enjoyable session.
P.S. Sorry again, and sorry everyone that this is completely useless in music terms.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Sorry about that
Aw.
Mr. Hurley, no, of course you're not the only one to have that happen. It's happened to everyone who posts here regularly, including the estimable Mr. Gill, who will now be impossible to deal with for a couple of weeks.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Sorry about that
ahh don't be so hard on yourself; that's OUR job. Michael Gill is daft as a brush anyway so don't know why you're apologising
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Sorry about that
Well, I can't even always figure out what I mean, there are times that I post when I should be sleeping and then I need a translator to figure out what I said and what I meant. . .and I think we're all that way. . .
And as Mr. McDonnell said we'll be hard on you so you don't have too. You get to be hard on us so that we don't have to. . . It's only fair after all . . .
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by musicfan
Re: Sorry about that
I think Mr. Gill envisions himself as some sort of superhero whose mission is to protect the world from daftness. But he's really more of a Don Quixote that hasn’t yet realized all the ‘daftness’ he fights are only windmills. Don’t tell him – he’s very fragile and might go mad and have to be certified and locked away if he ever found out. Just tolerate him -- like the rest of us do.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Thanks lads - even my apologies are getting me into trouble today, hence the relocation. These Corkmen are very strict... but thanks for not deleting me completely, Jeremy.
(Oh and the whole 'failing to perform in bed' thing - I meant to say that I felt like I IMAGINE someone would feel in that situation, of course......why oh why did I wake up this morning?)
Good luck
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Ha ha, I've always identified with the esteemed Don Quixote De la Mancha, one of my favourite books. He's so righteous and convinced of the worth of his romantic ideals, and yet he just keeps getting the sh*t kicked out him. ha ha. There's no problem Mr Hurleystick, it's all just blether.
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Yup. Concurring with the general mood of know apogies being unnecessary. And please don't go apologising for your apologies now!
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by SL*
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Hurleystick I hope we're going to get an apology for apologising for your apologies.
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
But Conan, I was just getting the hang of it - it's like playing triplets or something, once you start you just can't stop doing it , sorry (see?)
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Point taken. Sorry.
Hmm it's catching...
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
"But Conan, I was just getting the hang of it - it's like playing triplets or something, once you start you just can't stop doing it , sorry (see?)"
Stop before you go blind!
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Ha!
Not that I know what you're talking about, Bob, of course....
# Posted on January 24th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Cannabis and Traditional Music
Cannabis use was certainly associated with the urban Greek subculture that created Rebetika music in the early to mid c20. What effect it had on the players and their real or imagined ability to compose, play, sing or dance I wouldn't know, as I don't touch the stuff. And I wouldn't assume all of them did. But it didn't stop them, or associated producers, creating arresting songs, marvellous tunes and, as far as I know, a completely new rhythm in Greek music (I may be wrong here) - the Zeimbekiko: I think it's in 7/9 (again I might be wrong). It has a thumping, stately beat which has the inevitability of the basic rhythms of Irish or British TM and seems to have been there for ever. (Anyone who's gone to Greece will probably have heard it willy-nilly.)
The rebetika players put the bouzouki firmly into the mainstream of urban Greek popular music, whence composers like Theodorakis got it known internationally. (Their other main stringed instrument, the baglama, remained more obscure.)
Not a bad musical track record for a subculture associated with drugs, crime and indeed poverty and dispossession (many were Greek refugees from Turkey following a failed Greek attack on that country). But not a self-evident demonstration that drug use makes people more creative and capable than they would have been without it.
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by nicholas