How do you feel about those people who claim not to be good players? You know they've "just started", "haven't been playing that long", "don't get a chance to practise" but you know damn fine that they've been playing tunes or an instrument much longer than this.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of modesty, in my opinion, or even being less than confident about your ability. However, those people who lie or deliberately understate their achievements and abilities just to appear more impressive really irritate me. What do you think?
You'll have guessed that I experienced this tonight. A female who claimed to have had *one guitar lesson* where she learned 3 chords gave an excellent performance with a damn sight more than three chords and lots of good riffs and guitar picking. Why can't people be honest?
Here is a reply that would have been equally modest but more truthful; my father heard it from Aly Bain after he complemented (that's too mild a word, actually) him on his fiddling at the intermission of a Boys of the Lough concert. Aly Bain just muttered into his whisky, "I guess all those years of practice paid off."
Well, on fiddle I've just started, haven't been playing that long and don't get a chance to practice. On top of that I suck. Had a few classical lessons fourty years ago though. I've given up saying "I can't play," because people tend to roll their eyes at me.
On guitar I've never even been shown three chords. That isn't dishonesty, but I can play the thing a bit, although the lifetime of doing it doesn't show for some reason. I don't know why people tend to roll their eyes when I say that, because it's brutally honest. I know early teens who can outright blow me away.
There is a culture, and particularly an Irish culture, where being a nail that sticks up gets you whacked down. Aly had to sardonically mutter into his whiskey because if he said that too loudly other people would start questioning, even more loudly and rather agressively, just the hell he thought he was.
Everybody loves a legitimate "hero." It gives you someone to belittle.
However, bear in mind that with Ireland's history over the past few centuries not standing out often meant survival. Parents taught their kids to keep their heads down and blend in with the scenery. Over the centuries as that has become embedded in the culture, it is now translated as being "uppity" to stand out. It's a perversion of the original intent, but there it is.
Think about it, what sort of responses do you think I would get if my opening paragraph had been, "I don't know. I'm pretty hot s*** and not afraid to say so"?
Been "haunting" awhile, but finally bored with it and want to get into the mix. Might make it more fun to actually exist here. Anyways, John J, I am thinking there might be the possibility that she thought she was in the company of The Chieftains, or something. I am curious, though, about why it so irritates people when someone with talent is modest. I am not sure I understand the hostility. And Chris, it very well could be that the nature of this thread would argue against your statement that "everyone admires humility."
Did she also claim that this one lesson where she learned three chords was the sum total of her experience, if you see the subtle distinction?
Up until a few years ago I too in 30+ years of guitar playing could have made exactly the same claim. I had one lesson as a child, learned E and A and D, then the teacher said, "I'm going on holidays now but I'll call you when I get back." It's been one hell of a holiday.
Maybe she was just stating she was basically self-taught and it got misinterpreted?
That's not entirely your point though. On thinking about it, I fortunately haven't come across that exact flavour of admiration-seeking, though I've certainly met some attention-seeking professional b*tches of both genders in music.
Nothing is more irksome then to go to a competition where they are heralding a young fiddler (she was eight or nine) who had only been playing fiddle for a year who placed second to a girl who had only been playing for a year and a half (same basic age) when both had been taking classical violin since they were three (which their mother told me). She just thought it would look better if she put on their competition forms that they'd only been playing for the amount of time that they'd been taking fiddle. They were good, but that false modesty or outright dishonesty was irritating.
I rarely tell people how much I practice or not, but I don't make excuses for how I am playing. Anytime someone sets themselves up as not been playing long, or not practicing enough they seem to me to be trying to draw attention to how good they must naturally be - since they're playing as well as they are.
34MANdolin - it isn't that we dislike modest people, it's that people who are obviously stretching the truth or downright lying about how long they've been playing isn't modesty. It's a form of boasting and that is what makes us hostile.
Johnny J, I guess it depends. I mean, f'rinstance, Dan Grotewohl, one of my teachers, is a FABULOUS fiddler in Irish, bluegrass and old time, and he'll go on and on and on how really not very good he is. This can sometimes be rather demoralizing to someone like me, who is about 25% of where Dan is. (I mean, if HE thinks he's crap, what does that make me?) However, I think Dan DOES believe this, even though to the rest of us mere mortals, he's really as good as people like Liz Carroll think he is.
Because he's comparing himself to a really high standard.
When punters tell me how good I am, I try to say "thanks, I enjoy playing a lot, do you play?" or some such, because otherwise what I'm telling them is that they have no standards or that their opinion isn't worth anything to me. Hopefully that doesn't come off as conceited, because what I really want to say is, "jeez thanks, but, boyo, don't you realize I'm really crap."
Because I'm comparing myself to a really high standard.
But I don't know what to tell you about people who say they're crap when they're really quite expert, in order to come off better when you DO hear them play. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone like that, so don't know how I'd react...
I think to be fair that when somone says they are not that good, they are comparing themselves with people whom they hold in esteem. But more importantly they might be doing so because they know that they have been playing for as long as those people but have only achieved 1/10th of what they have managed.
If Frankie Gavin asks Zina before she plays "are you any good at the old fiddle?" She isn't going to say Yeah Frank I would knock your socks off - disclaimer: not saying that Zina has been at it as long as FG.
I have been playing the guitar for longer than Jim Murray but compared to him, I suck as an accompanist - get my drift.
I used to tell people I haven't been playing whistle long (when in fact I hadn't been playing for long) as a ploy for MERCY!!!
But I learned that the other musicians would be able to percieve what level I was on as I got better and that mercy was granted by the merciful without my self-rating.
But what is the best answer to the question, "are ya any good on that thing?"?
I tell people that I have been doing this for a year and a half, mainly because I have been doing this for a year and a half. A little more than that by now, I think it's about 88 weeks. I have done extremely well in 88 weeks, way above average. But that does not change the fact that I suck.
I record myself every now and then to check my progress, and I am making very good progress, I'm extremely happy with my progress, but I'm still very far from my destination. I would not buy music of this quality, nor would I listen to it (except to check my progress). I would not even post it on The Mighty Craic Online, because it is not good enough yet (even though I can do as well as some of the recordings posted there).
When there are new people at the session, they assume that I've been playing for years, because I am a little older than the average beginner. If I had been playing for as many years as they think I have, and this is the quality of my playing, I might as well give it up. So I'm a little embarrassed about my performance. By pointing out that I am a beginner, I am in effect apologizing for the poor quality, and at the same time promising that I will be doing better in future.
I'm not nearly as good as I know I can be one day. There's a gap - the difference between what I am trying to do and what I am actually doing. It is this gap that I am embarrassed about, even though the gap is only visible to me. If somebody thinks that my performance is better than I think it is, they could interpret my humility as fake, but in my mind I am simply not good enough yet. It's an inferiority complex. Now in my case, I really am just a beginner, but I promise to stop using it as an excuse after this year.
I think there are two distinct things being talked about here:John was not complaining about genuine modesty.
What he brought up was people who claim to have little ability, or more particularly to have very little experience or teaching - but then go on to play really well. The ploy of claiming to have had "only one lesson" - then playing well, is a way of saying "look how brilliant I am - I can play this well after one lesson". This is, I agree, an unpleasant form of self glorification.
(Incidentally, if someone does it for an occasional joke then that's a different matter: Go to a session as a stranger - ask someone about their instrument and how it works, and ask if you could possibly just have a little go 'cos you've never played one before. Play a few notes very hesitantly, with a couple of wrong notes, then play "Three Blind Mice" rather hesitantly, and then belt out a good tune. At this point everyone will (hopefully) see the joke - and you are clearly not really claiming to be a beginner after all).
John, are you sure she was being dishonest about this? Perhaps she plays another instrument, and has genuinely picked things up very quickly - there are people of that ability around you know. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them..
I've actually come across people who've started guitar, and only had the most basic of lessons (and not played another instrument either), and been really very good after a matter of months. They've just worked away very hard, on their own - and have been well rewarded for their efforts.
I think its only fair to let you know in your infancy stage of learning the mysteries that you will NEVER EVER reach your 'destination'! This is not to say that you will not be a fine player one day (or even soon!) but that musician strive towards a fantasy called perfection. You will never be as good as you want to be. Happy musicians are ones who know this but march on anyway!
John - you think it's bad in trad music circles?
In my sport, x-country & road races, it's almost a given when you meet an acquaintance or rival, they are going to give you a littany of recent injuries, hamstring problems, Achilles tendon and knee injuries just on the mend, having just gotten over a virus, or they are hungover and only got 3 hours sleep. It's a wonder how any of these guys finish a race, never mind beat the crap out of me. Still, I suppose it's better than saying "I'm feeling wonderful", then dropping out.
Nobody wants to be a show off as people just ridicule you for this, so its better to let the music do the talking and let people make their own minds up about your playing, why would anyone want to blurt out "Yes aren't I just brilliant ?" when someone compliments their ability. It's far more natural to say "I had a great teacher" or "My problem is I cant listen to an irish music C.D. without picking up my instrument and trying to play along to it" a comment like that just shows you are passionate about what you do and people respond to that a lot better than sheer arrogance.
Occasionally at pub gigs I get remarks like "You're the best mandolin player I've heard" or "You are able to get notes out of that that I never thought were possible" If only they knew the truth !! very nice but I know my limitations and there are many i.e. my timing for jigs suck, I cant do crans, rolls, triplets that great and I have difficulty playing in certain keys. However I can understand that I am probably the ONLY mandolin player he has seen at his local pub as most of the other bands consist of guitar / keyboard / bass / fidddle / drums and the occasional accordion and there is nobody he can compare me to.
As for the impossible note theory I can only think its when I slur from F->F# in the D tunes Bb->B in the G tunes etc just to give it a bluegrass type tone.
Thanks for all the replies. Showaddydadito is correct about the scenario I was hoping to discuss here.
I'm not really that sore about this particular woman. In fact, she's actually a nice person. There may indeed be a fine line between false modesty and lying. Perhaps, because she knew us all, she maybe elaborated a little.
She does actually play another instrument which would certainly have helped but not that much. I'm inclined to believe that she's probably worked on the guitar a bit by herself(as Ron says), even if she's only received one lesson. However, she neglected to mention all of this. Only the lesson and 3 chords.
Anyway, I'm not too bothered about this particular incident and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. However, I've frequently come across this sort of thing before as I'm sure some of you have. As I say, modesty, shyness etc is fine. It's when it goes beyond this that it can get irritating.
No jfiddlerh, you are not being defeatist. I am well aware of the fact that "the gap" never goes away, as it is not just with music that this kind of thing exists. But the nature of the gap changes. At the moment, I want to play well enough for others to enjoy, and I don't always achieve that. Later, the more experienced me might try a specific style or technique and fail at it, but the result may still be enjoyable to others, so there's less embarresment.
Maybe this person was embarressed by not being able to play as well as she wanted to, even though everybody else thought it was fine. Or maybe she was just fishing for compliments.
Anyone remember that WoodyAllen movie with Sean Penn as a 30s jazz guitarist ? Travelling through the country he signs himself into a talent contest saying he's just got this guitar, plays a few bum notes then blows them away..........
If you've managed to reach a point of self-knowledge, then you'll always know there's someone much better than you. On the other hand, Desiderata says not to compare yourself to others, because there will always be some better, and some worse ( off ) than you......The worst thing you can do is to ask someone else to rate themselves. Who but a complete p***k will say they're s***hot ? Of course they'll be modest.
I have this session where I'm in playing all evening. A mile and a half down the road there's one where I might know six tunes all evening and be left amazed by the playing of everyone else. At the one session I'm up to standard. Down the road I'm seriously struggling. That's why I wouldn't want to rate myself, nor like to be asked.
One thing we don't know about JJs scenario is did she just come out and say, unprompted, "I've only had one lesson you know"?
Or did JJ say to her first, "wow, your fantastic, I bet you've been playing that thing for years and you must have had loads of lessons". And she replied, rather sheepishly, "Actually I only had one lesson, and the teacher was so useless I only learned three chords"?
Some people are just genetically unable to accept a compliment (especially Irish people as KFG said), and often will make a reply that may seem falsely modest or outright arrogant as a result. That's why some shy people occasionally come across as conceited or aloof, when the exact opposite is the case. It's just the way it is - however in the interests of further research I intend to answer any future compliments with a jovial "I know I'm great - it makes me wonder why the rest of you people even bother!!". I expect to often be congratulated for my honesty.....
Regards
John, you ask why people can't be honest - but how would you 'honestly' rate your own playing. If you're like me, you have no idea if you're any 'good' or not. I certainly know that the more I play, the more I know how to listen to and understand 'top' flute players. The more I do that, the higher I mentally set the bar. Was a time that I thought I was reasonably competent - now I'm not so sure.
But having said that, that sort of patently dishonest false modesty you occasionally come across does always feel like a form of arrogance...
I think false modesty comes from low self-esteem. It’s a form of protection against anticipated rejection. Set the bar low to lower the risk of having to cope with failure.
I was taught not to puff myself up--any good things to say should come from other people. And even now, after all these years, I tend to turn red when anyone says anything nice about me. But not bragging is different from being deceptive, or from making statements that are totally out of line with reality.
I read a book once on business management, and the guy was talking about professional golfers--he said the good ones were a diverse bunch, but they all shared only one trait in common--they were never happy with their performance. Being smug or complacent about your abilities is one of the worst traps a person can fall into. Being overly critical is bad too, but striving for improvement is a vital part of a healthy life.
It's just so annoying when people tell you you are good. The vast majority of times it comes from people who would't have the slightest clue whether your are good or not, so what's even the point of replying to them, other than to be polite.
And then the small percentage who do know, what's the point in them saying it anyway, other than to let you know that they know, which is ingratiating and arrogant.
I just try to judge what the person would like a response and give them that. If a punter says "wow, you must have been playing since you were a small child", I'd say "yes". If they are an adult learner I'd say "no" so as not to dicourage them.
Oh dear, I feel as if I came over as a bit of an ogre here. I suppose many of us are a bit guilty of understating our abilities or achievements and, as Ottery suggests, it can be a safety measure just in case we don't perform very well.
I don't rate my own playing that highly but, nowadays, I'll grudgingly admit that I can play all right (albeit not brilliantly) under certain circumstances e.g. I know the material well, I'm in a relaxed situation, sober enough, with musicians I'm used to and so on.
Actually, the "one lesson" is a bit of red herring. We know of many great players who are entirely self taught. I'm not one of those, of course, but I've never received any lessons on the mandolin but I've been playing it for a few years now. I'll admit to having had lessons on guitar and fiddle but I'm still mainly self taught. Anyway, this person had just bought the guitar(she said) and freely volunteered the information about the lesson. To be fair, there was conversation leading up to this but none of us coaxed the information out of her.
This particular incident isn't that important in itself. I wasn't that annoyed but I was left with the feeling that she was "having us on a bit". So, that irritated me slightly. I was more concerned about whether you've experienced this sort of thing yourselves and what you think about it. I'm glad to see such a healthy response and wide range of views.
One of my favorite ways of dealing with that sort of thing is one that I can't really use very well as I'm not that good a bull-sh*tter. A friend uses it to great effect: he immediately starts talking about, oh yeah, how very VERY good he is, in fact, he's SO good that Frankie Gavin once asked him for a lesson, and he said, well, gee, Frankie, I'd like to but I'm booked up with recording with Kevin Burke and John Carty and Martin Hayes, and then he's got Liz Carroll and James Kelly waiting on an answer for a tour, and...
Oh that's great, see I wish I could pull that off too. . .maybe it's because I'm constantly surrounded by classical musicians who are always wanting to point out that they've been playing for less time than you but they're better than you, and aren't you amazed at how good they are considering how little they'be played . . . when you know that they're stretching the truth about how long they've been playing.
As for dealing with punters, just take it in stride. I have friends who comprise a Civil War dance band, in the re-enactment circles that they play for they are big news, these guys (the punters if you will) can't understand how my friends aren't the biggest band at all the competitions. My friends on the other hand know exactly where they fall in the 'real' world of actual musicians. They have a much harder time playing for practicing musicians than their punters. Obviously the compliments from the musician crowd mean more to them but they still accept the compliments of the punters. They also tend to suggest other bands/musicians for the punters to listen to (typically out of our area so as to not lose their gigs) so that the punters are broadening their musical experience.
But they don't make excuses or employ the 'false modesty' ploy to attract attention to how good they must be. Once again, I don't mind modesty, I prefer it to braggarts, but I don't like it when people are lying to me. I understand not taking compliments well and striving for the highest level of playing, but just be truthful or reticent. . .
I've noticed that self-deprecation seems to be a trait among musicians from Ireland. I think it comes across as humorous and fits in with the whole slagging thing. It's almost like Teflon that you put on to avoid an onslaught of slagging that's waiting just around every bend. If you slag yourself first -- it disarms the slaggers.
What's interesting as well is how a lot of musicians from Ireland will avoid boasting about their abilities, but their PR will tout them as "Ireland's best" or Ireland's greatest." Having said that... there are also a few I know who leave the Teflon armor at home and have no problem boasting.
It might be so that some of us are embarrassed about how long we've been at it yet we've only become as good as we are. I know my own self-expectation is always running ahead of where I am at the time. When someone gives me a compliment I will often say, "I wish I could agree with you"... and I mean it. But what follows often sounds to me like I was fishing for further compliments. So when my self-control is functioning I simply say, "Thanks."
Punters - Musician
Genuine applause- "Thank you!"
Pity (aka golf) applause - "Now don't go encouraging us...." (said with a smile)
They buy you a round - say thanks and then chat them up, ask their name, you might make a friend.
For me, being self-effacing is part of this music. The best compliment I can get is when someone says, "What a lovely tune!" I'm just the vehicle for the music, not the other way around.
Occasionally, someone asks me how long I've been playing the fiddle, so I answer truthfully (currently it's 5 years); but to put it into perspective, I then say I've been playing the cello since I was a kid and that some skill seems to transfer from one instrument to the other.
"If you slag yourself first -- it disarms the slaggers."
Pretty much, yeah.
". . .there are also a few I know who leave the Teflon armor at home and have no problem boasting."
I've actually gotten the "I'm so good I don't know why anyone else bothers," line from someone who was dead serious about it. The interesting thing is that he was a "name" that I had started hanging around because I was agog at his guitar playing, but I never could think the same of him as a human being after that. A shame because he really was a brilliant musician and performer.
"So when my self-control is functioning I simply say, "Thanks." "
That's what I've trained myself to do, but admit it took some training. Used to do the whole getting embaressed thing, but just saying "Thanks" takes a lot less energy.
I mean, there are sessions out there where I would be considered some sort of whistle god; where I know more tunes than all of the rest of the players combined, and play them faster, cleaner, and with considerably more style. Anything realistic I said there about my skill would sound like false modesty.
And then, there's my home session, where I'm at best a very distant third among the regular whistlers, I'm lucky if I can keep up with a third of the tunes on a given night, and at least one of the players treats me with thinly veiled contempt for my lack of skill.
Good Point ,Sol. I believe I have seen you play in both situations. I am one who thinks you are a whistle god. When I have told you that you are my inspiration, you just smiled and chuckled and went on.
I'm in agreement with the phantom & KFG regarding receiving compliments. It's something I've always had great difficulty in dealing with - and after many, many years, I've now learned to simply say "thanks" as well..
The humility I saw in a great musician at my first real session in Ireland has been one of those magic moments that crystallised my interest in playing the music. W
Just read the rest of this. How could JfiddlerH say such a thing when I allow him to play with me, just a challenge to myself really, I know the tune even if he doesn't.
As for compliments. If someone says to me "You can fairly play that drum" I would normally say "Tell me something I don't know".
If they tell me that I am great on the whistle, I tell them (honestly) that I only play one tune.
If they tell me I am great on the mandolin, I say thanks, because, as M.G suggests, they don't have a clue, and saying thanks is the easiest way out.
In short, you must have some idea about your ability, you should know your limits, good, bad or indifferent.
Agree re the comments about how difficult it can be accepting compliments.
I read somewhere many many moons ago that the first mark of a true gentlemen is the ability to handle an insult gracefully, and that the second is to do the same with a compliment. Interesting juxtaposition.
No, no, no, no, no!
The first mark of a gentleman is that he knows how to play the bagpipes, but chooses not to.
Personally, I'm not a gentleman, I only had a gentleman's education.
So I would play the bagpipes if I could.
And I probably don't know any gentlemen either. Although all my lady friends are ladies.
About a month ago one of the punters at our session said to me "You must be the best bodhran player in Ireland". JfiddlerH laughed, the others held their breath.
Finally I said with undisguised scorn "What do you mean "Ireland?"
I'm warming to bodhran bliss. There's something actually very humble about boasting that you are good on a thing you can learn everything there is to know about it in an hour
On the topic of accepting compliments gracefully, I propose the following:
- someone who enjoyed your music : you play that thing really well
- you : you enjoyed it eh?
- SWEYM : Yes, very much so, thank you.
- you: You're welcome
A compliment, whether given by someone who has a clue or who doesn't, means that the giver enjoyed your playing. The best two answers are "thank you" and the more cryptic "you're welcome"
A punter asks Tiger Woods if he is any good at golf. "No, I've just had one lesson" says Tiger and then goes out to win the masters.
That is false modesty, and lies, at its worst.
But if Tiger says, "I'm the best in the world", is he boasting?
I'd say he was being honest.
And Conan, ex St Mary's boy and all that, you do play the bodhran, with or without books. Twenty minutes would be enough time to learn the button accordian, I realise piano/accordian is much harder.
But the big question on everybodys' lips is "Does M.G play the bodhran?
Who'd have thought that a group of people who are only here because they play music in public places could have so many hang ups about how to react when someone pays them a compliment.
If someone thanks me for playing, I say "You're welcome"
- Because they are welcome.
If they express an opinion that I play well, I say "You're very kind"
- Because they are kind, regardless of where my skill fits in the global scale.
BB all us oul' thumpers are in your shadow :¬)
Right enough, piano accordion is a lot harder to play because even people who haven't heard it still hate it.
"But if Tiger says, "I'm the best in the world", is he boasting?
I'd say he was being honest."
I've been know to say "I hold the world record," or "I'm ranked number one."
This are simple statements of fact.
"I'm the best in the world," is almost always a provisional and subjective judgement. You may well be the best in the world yesterday there, but suck today here.
Why? Oh come on and give us a break will ye. I was only a kid for christ sake. Anyone out there wanna tell us they never did daft things when they were a kid?
Now... if this little number was at the center of your session it would be a handy place for drinks and mobile phones. And if someone shows up with a bodhran you could point to it and say, "We already have one... thanks."
Morons. That's a "cymbal bodhran", it has a small pedal at the back which makes the base operate like a cymbal. Already very popular in the good old U.S.of A.
You only play them with drinks on them when you want to improvise with the different notes each glass can make, given the quantity of liquid in it.
Mobiles on it should be avoided. That's just like using a beat box or backing tapes, it is not traditional.
Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Here's one before I crawl into bed.
How do you feel about those people who claim not to be good players? You know they've "just started", "haven't been playing that long", "don't get a chance to practise" but you know damn fine that they've been playing tunes or an instrument much longer than this.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of modesty, in my opinion, or even being less than confident about your ability. However, those people who lie or deliberately understate their achievements and abilities just to appear more impressive really irritate me. What do you think?
You'll have guessed that I experienced this tonight. A female who claimed to have had *one guitar lesson* where she learned 3 chords gave an excellent performance with a damn sight more than three chords and lots of good riffs and guitar picking. Why can't people be honest?
Rant over.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Maybe it is a self confidence thing, or just a ploy to get more attention from less music orientated people.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by leigh
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Here is a reply that would have been equally modest but more truthful; my father heard it from Aly Bain after he complemented (that's too mild a word, actually) him on his fiddling at the intermission of a Boys of the Lough concert. Aly Bain just muttered into his whisky, "I guess all those years of practice paid off."
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by smw
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Well, on fiddle I've just started, haven't been playing that long and don't get a chance to practice. On top of that I suck. Had a few classical lessons fourty years ago though. I've given up saying "I can't play," because people tend to roll their eyes at me.
On guitar I've never even been shown three chords. That isn't dishonesty, but I can play the thing a bit, although the lifetime of doing it doesn't show for some reason. I don't know why people tend to roll their eyes when I say that, because it's brutally honest. I know early teens who can outright blow me away.
There is a culture, and particularly an Irish culture, where being a nail that sticks up gets you whacked down. Aly had to sardonically mutter into his whiskey because if he said that too loudly other people would start questioning, even more loudly and rather agressively, just the hell he thought he was.
Everybody loves a legitimate "hero." It gives you someone to belittle.
However, bear in mind that with Ireland's history over the past few centuries not standing out often meant survival. Parents taught their kids to keep their heads down and blend in with the scenery. Over the centuries as that has become embedded in the culture, it is now translated as being "uppity" to stand out. It's a perversion of the original intent, but there it is.
Think about it, what sort of responses do you think I would get if my opening paragraph had been, "I don't know. I'm pretty hot s*** and not afraid to say so"?
Why subject yourself to that sort of thing?
KFG
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Where's Bodhran Bliss when we need him?
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Some people appreciate talent, but everybody admires humility.
Every entertainer knows this.
The type of people you're talking about can be irritating. But from their POV, it's probably better to err on the side of caution.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Deaf Frets
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Been "haunting" awhile, but finally bored with it and want to get into the mix. Might make it more fun to actually exist here. Anyways, John J, I am thinking there might be the possibility that she thought she was in the company of The Chieftains, or something. I am curious, though, about why it so irritates people when someone with talent is modest. I am not sure I understand the hostility. And Chris, it very well could be that the nature of this thread would argue against your statement that "everyone admires humility."
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by 34MANdolin
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
What's better - false modesty or arrogance?
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
False modesty is a form of arrogance.
KFG
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Did she also claim that this one lesson where she learned three chords was the sum total of her experience, if you see the subtle distinction?
Up until a few years ago I too in 30+ years of guitar playing could have made exactly the same claim. I had one lesson as a child, learned E and A and D, then the teacher said, "I'm going on holidays now but I'll call you when I get back." It's been one hell of a holiday.
Maybe she was just stating she was basically self-taught and it got misinterpreted?
That's not entirely your point though. On thinking about it, I fortunately haven't come across that exact flavour of admiration-seeking, though I've certainly met some attention-seeking professional b*tches of both genders in music.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Tish
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Nothing is more irksome then to go to a competition where they are heralding a young fiddler (she was eight or nine) who had only been playing fiddle for a year who placed second to a girl who had only been playing for a year and a half (same basic age) when both had been taking classical violin since they were three (which their mother told me). She just thought it would look better if she put on their competition forms that they'd only been playing for the amount of time that they'd been taking fiddle. They were good, but that false modesty or outright dishonesty was irritating.
I rarely tell people how much I practice or not, but I don't make excuses for how I am playing. Anytime someone sets themselves up as not been playing long, or not practicing enough they seem to me to be trying to draw attention to how good they must naturally be - since they're playing as well as they are.
34MANdolin - it isn't that we dislike modest people, it's that people who are obviously stretching the truth or downright lying about how long they've been playing isn't modesty. It's a form of boasting and that is what makes us hostile.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Welcome out of lurkhood, 34MANdolin.
Johnny J, I guess it depends. I mean, f'rinstance, Dan Grotewohl, one of my teachers, is a FABULOUS fiddler in Irish, bluegrass and old time, and he'll go on and on and on how really not very good he is. This can sometimes be rather demoralizing to someone like me, who is about 25% of where Dan is. (I mean, if HE thinks he's crap, what does that make me?) However, I think Dan DOES believe this, even though to the rest of us mere mortals, he's really as good as people like Liz Carroll think he is.
Because he's comparing himself to a really high standard.
When punters tell me how good I am, I try to say "thanks, I enjoy playing a lot, do you play?" or some such, because otherwise what I'm telling them is that they have no standards or that their opinion isn't worth anything to me. Hopefully that doesn't come off as conceited, because what I really want to say is, "jeez thanks, but, boyo, don't you realize I'm really crap."
Because I'm comparing myself to a really high standard.
But I don't know what to tell you about people who say they're crap when they're really quite expert, in order to come off better when you DO hear them play. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone like that, so don't know how I'd react...
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I think to be fair that when somone says they are not that good, they are comparing themselves with people whom they hold in esteem. But more importantly they might be doing so because they know that they have been playing for as long as those people but have only achieved 1/10th of what they have managed.
If Frankie Gavin asks Zina before she plays "are you any good at the old fiddle?" She isn't going to say Yeah Frank I would knock your socks off - disclaimer: not saying that Zina has been at it as long as FG.
I have been playing the guitar for longer than Jim Murray but compared to him, I suck as an accompanist - get my drift.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Donough
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I used to tell people I haven't been playing whistle long (when in fact I hadn't been playing for long) as a ploy for MERCY!!!
But I learned that the other musicians would be able to percieve what level I was on as I got better and that mercy was granted by the merciful without my self-rating.
But what is the best answer to the question, "are ya any good on that thing?"?
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Taken from a novel I read sometime ago (not quite verbatim)
(...)
- They say you are the best warrior in the country
- Certainly not the worst (...)
A neat phrase to suit such questions.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Barfly
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I don't know. I'm pretty hot s*** and not afraid to say so
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Just a person
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I tell people that I have been doing this for a year and a half, mainly because I have been doing this for a year and a half. A little more than that by now, I think it's about 88 weeks. I have done extremely well in 88 weeks, way above average. But that does not change the fact that I suck.
I record myself every now and then to check my progress, and I am making very good progress, I'm extremely happy with my progress, but I'm still very far from my destination. I would not buy music of this quality, nor would I listen to it (except to check my progress). I would not even post it on The Mighty Craic Online, because it is not good enough yet (even though I can do as well as some of the recordings posted there).
When there are new people at the session, they assume that I've been playing for years, because I am a little older than the average beginner. If I had been playing for as many years as they think I have, and this is the quality of my playing, I might as well give it up. So I'm a little embarrassed about my performance. By pointing out that I am a beginner, I am in effect apologizing for the poor quality, and at the same time promising that I will be doing better in future.
I'm not nearly as good as I know I can be one day. There's a gap - the difference between what I am trying to do and what I am actually doing. It is this gap that I am embarrassed about, even though the gap is only visible to me. If somebody thinks that my performance is better than I think it is, they could interpret my humility as fake, but in my mind I am simply not good enough yet. It's an inferiority complex. Now in my case, I really am just a beginner, but I promise to stop using it as an excuse after this year.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Shrog
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I think there are two distinct things being talked about here:John was not complaining about genuine modesty.
What he brought up was people who claim to have little ability, or more particularly to have very little experience or teaching - but then go on to play really well. The ploy of claiming to have had "only one lesson" - then playing well, is a way of saying "look how brilliant I am - I can play this well after one lesson". This is, I agree, an unpleasant form of self glorification.
(Incidentally, if someone does it for an occasional joke then that's a different matter: Go to a session as a stranger - ask someone about their instrument and how it works, and ask if you could possibly just have a little go 'cos you've never played one before. Play a few notes very hesitantly, with a couple of wrong notes, then play "Three Blind Mice" rather hesitantly, and then belt out a good tune. At this point everyone will (hopefully) see the joke - and you are clearly not really claiming to be a beginner after all).
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
John, are you sure she was being dishonest about this? Perhaps she plays another instrument, and has genuinely picked things up very quickly - there are people of that ability around you know. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them..
I've actually come across people who've started guitar, and only had the most basic of lessons (and not played another instrument either), and been really very good after a matter of months. They've just worked away very hard, on their own - and have been well rewarded for their efforts.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Shrog
I think its only fair to let you know in your infancy stage of learning the mysteries that you will NEVER EVER reach your 'destination'! This is not to say that you will not be a fine player one day (or even soon!) but that musician strive towards a fantasy called perfection. You will never be as good as you want to be. Happy musicians are ones who know this but march on anyway!
Or maybe i'm just being defeatist???
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by jfiddlerh
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
John - you think it's bad in trad music circles?
In my sport, x-country & road races, it's almost a given when you meet an acquaintance or rival, they are going to give you a littany of recent injuries, hamstring problems, Achilles tendon and knee injuries just on the mend, having just gotten over a virus, or they are hungover and only got 3 hours sleep. It's a wonder how any of these guys finish a race, never mind beat the crap out of me. Still, I suppose it's better than saying "I'm feeling wonderful", then dropping out.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Nobody wants to be a show off as people just ridicule you for this, so its better to let the music do the talking and let people make their own minds up about your playing, why would anyone want to blurt out "Yes aren't I just brilliant ?" when someone compliments their ability. It's far more natural to say "I had a great teacher" or "My problem is I cant listen to an irish music C.D. without picking up my instrument and trying to play along to it" a comment like that just shows you are passionate about what you do and people respond to that a lot better than sheer arrogance.
Occasionally at pub gigs I get remarks like "You're the best mandolin player I've heard" or "You are able to get notes out of that that I never thought were possible" If only they knew the truth !! very nice but I know my limitations and there are many i.e. my timing for jigs suck, I cant do crans, rolls, triplets that great and I have difficulty playing in certain keys. However I can understand that I am probably the ONLY mandolin player he has seen at his local pub as most of the other bands consist of guitar / keyboard / bass / fidddle / drums and the occasional accordion and there is nobody he can compare me to.
As for the impossible note theory I can only think its when I slur from F->F# in the D tunes Bb->B in the G tunes etc just to give it a bluegrass type tone.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Thanks for all the replies. Showaddydadito is correct about the scenario I was hoping to discuss here.
I'm not really that sore about this particular woman. In fact, she's actually a nice person. There may indeed be a fine line between false modesty and lying. Perhaps, because she knew us all, she maybe elaborated a little.
She does actually play another instrument which would certainly have helped but not that much. I'm inclined to believe that she's probably worked on the guitar a bit by herself(as Ron says), even if she's only received one lesson. However, she neglected to mention all of this. Only the lesson and 3 chords.
Anyway, I'm not too bothered about this particular incident and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. However, I've frequently come across this sort of thing before as I'm sure some of you have. As I say, modesty, shyness etc is fine. It's when it goes beyond this that it can get irritating.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
No jfiddlerh, you are not being defeatist. I am well aware of the fact that "the gap" never goes away, as it is not just with music that this kind of thing exists. But the nature of the gap changes. At the moment, I want to play well enough for others to enjoy, and I don't always achieve that. Later, the more experienced me might try a specific style or technique and fail at it, but the result may still be enjoyable to others, so there's less embarresment.
Maybe this person was embarressed by not being able to play as well as she wanted to, even though everybody else thought it was fine. Or maybe she was just fishing for compliments.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Shrog
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Anyone remember that WoodyAllen movie with Sean Penn as a 30s jazz guitarist ? Travelling through the country he signs himself into a talent contest saying he's just got this guitar, plays a few bum notes then blows them away..........
If you've managed to reach a point of self-knowledge, then you'll always know there's someone much better than you. On the other hand, Desiderata says not to compare yourself to others, because there will always be some better, and some worse ( off ) than you......The worst thing you can do is to ask someone else to rate themselves. Who but a complete p***k will say they're s***hot ? Of course they'll be modest.
I have this session where I'm in playing all evening. A mile and a half down the road there's one where I might know six tunes all evening and be left amazed by the playing of everyone else. At the one session I'm up to standard. Down the road I'm seriously struggling. That's why I wouldn't want to rate myself, nor like to be asked.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Not really dishonest as there is always someone can play "better" than you
You never stop learning
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
One thing we don't know about JJs scenario is did she just come out and say, unprompted, "I've only had one lesson you know"?
Or did JJ say to her first, "wow, your fantastic, I bet you've been playing that thing for years and you must have had loads of lessons". And she replied, rather sheepishly, "Actually I only had one lesson, and the teacher was so useless I only learned three chords"?
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Some people are just genetically unable to accept a compliment (especially Irish people as KFG said), and often will make a reply that may seem falsely modest or outright arrogant as a result. That's why some shy people occasionally come across as conceited or aloof, when the exact opposite is the case. It's just the way it is - however in the interests of further research I intend to answer any future compliments with a jovial "I know I'm great - it makes me wonder why the rest of you people even bother!!". I expect to often be congratulated for my honesty.....
Regards
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
John, you ask why people can't be honest - but how would you 'honestly' rate your own playing. If you're like me, you have no idea if you're any 'good' or not. I certainly know that the more I play, the more I know how to listen to and understand 'top' flute players. The more I do that, the higher I mentally set the bar. Was a time that I thought I was reasonably competent - now I'm not so sure.
But having said that, that sort of patently dishonest false modesty you occasionally come across does always feel like a form of arrogance...
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I think false modesty comes from low self-esteem. It’s a form of protection against anticipated rejection. Set the bar low to lower the risk of having to cope with failure.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I was taught not to puff myself up--any good things to say should come from other people. And even now, after all these years, I tend to turn red when anyone says anything nice about me. But not bragging is different from being deceptive, or from making statements that are totally out of line with reality.
I read a book once on business management, and the guy was talking about professional golfers--he said the good ones were a diverse bunch, but they all shared only one trait in common--they were never happy with their performance. Being smug or complacent about your abilities is one of the worst traps a person can fall into. Being overly critical is bad too, but striving for improvement is a vital part of a healthy life.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
It's just so annoying when people tell you you are good. The vast majority of times it comes from people who would't have the slightest clue whether your are good or not, so what's even the point of replying to them, other than to be polite.
And then the small percentage who do know, what's the point in them saying it anyway, other than to let you know that they know, which is ingratiating and arrogant.
I just try to judge what the person would like a response and give them that. If a punter says "wow, you must have been playing since you were a small child", I'd say "yes". If they are an adult learner I'd say "no" so as not to dicourage them.
I'm afraid it's utter dishonesty with me
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Unbelievable.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by ∅
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Oh dear, I feel as if I came over as a bit of an ogre here. I suppose many of us are a bit guilty of understating our abilities or achievements and, as Ottery suggests, it can be a safety measure just in case we don't perform very well.
I don't rate my own playing that highly but, nowadays, I'll grudgingly admit that I can play all right (albeit not brilliantly) under certain circumstances e.g. I know the material well, I'm in a relaxed situation, sober enough, with musicians I'm used to and so on.
Actually, the "one lesson" is a bit of red herring. We know of many great players who are entirely self taught. I'm not one of those, of course, but I've never received any lessons on the mandolin but I've been playing it for a few years now. I'll admit to having had lessons on guitar and fiddle but I'm still mainly self taught. Anyway, this person had just bought the guitar(she said) and freely volunteered the information about the lesson. To be fair, there was conversation leading up to this but none of us coaxed the information out of her.
This particular incident isn't that important in itself. I wasn't that annoyed but I was left with the feeling that she was "having us on a bit". So, that irritated me slightly. I was more concerned about whether you've experienced this sort of thing yourselves and what you think about it. I'm glad to see such a healthy response and wide range of views.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
One of my favorite ways of dealing with that sort of thing is one that I can't really use very well as I'm not that good a bull-sh*tter. A friend uses it to great effect: he immediately starts talking about, oh yeah, how very VERY good he is, in fact, he's SO good that Frankie Gavin once asked him for a lesson, and he said, well, gee, Frankie, I'd like to but I'm booked up with recording with Kevin Burke and John Carty and Martin Hayes, and then he's got Liz Carroll and James Kelly waiting on an answer for a tour, and...
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Oh that's great, see I wish I could pull that off too. . .maybe it's because I'm constantly surrounded by classical musicians who are always wanting to point out that they've been playing for less time than you but they're better than you, and aren't you amazed at how good they are considering how little they'be played . . . when you know that they're stretching the truth about how long they've been playing.
As for dealing with punters, just take it in stride. I have friends who comprise a Civil War dance band, in the re-enactment circles that they play for they are big news, these guys (the punters if you will) can't understand how my friends aren't the biggest band at all the competitions. My friends on the other hand know exactly where they fall in the 'real' world of actual musicians. They have a much harder time playing for practicing musicians than their punters. Obviously the compliments from the musician crowd mean more to them but they still accept the compliments of the punters. They also tend to suggest other bands/musicians for the punters to listen to (typically out of our area so as to not lose their gigs) so that the punters are broadening their musical experience.
But they don't make excuses or employ the 'false modesty' ploy to attract attention to how good they must be. Once again, I don't mind modesty, I prefer it to braggarts, but I don't like it when people are lying to me. I understand not taking compliments well and striving for the highest level of playing, but just be truthful or reticent. . .
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I've noticed that self-deprecation seems to be a trait among musicians from Ireland. I think it comes across as humorous and fits in with the whole slagging thing. It's almost like Teflon that you put on to avoid an onslaught of slagging that's waiting just around every bend. If you slag yourself first -- it disarms the slaggers.
What's interesting as well is how a lot of musicians from Ireland will avoid boasting about their abilities, but their PR will tout them as "Ireland's best" or Ireland's greatest." Having said that... there are also a few I know who leave the Teflon armor at home and have no problem boasting.
It might be so that some of us are embarrassed about how long we've been at it yet we've only become as good as we are. I know my own self-expectation is always running ahead of where I am at the time. When someone gives me a compliment I will often say, "I wish I could agree with you"... and I mean it. But what follows often sounds to me like I was fishing for further compliments. So when my self-control is functioning I simply say, "Thanks."
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Punters - Musician
Genuine applause- "Thank you!"
Pity (aka golf) applause - "Now don't go encouraging us...." (said with a smile)
They buy you a round - say thanks and then chat them up, ask their name, you might make a friend.
For me, being self-effacing is part of this music. The best compliment I can get is when someone says, "What a lovely tune!" I'm just the vehicle for the music, not the other way around.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Occasionally, someone asks me how long I've been playing the fiddle, so I answer truthfully (currently it's 5 years); but to put it into perspective, I then say I've been playing the cello since I was a kid and that some skill seems to transfer from one instrument to the other.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
"If you slag yourself first -- it disarms the slaggers."
Pretty much, yeah.
". . .there are also a few I know who leave the Teflon armor at home and have no problem boasting."
I've actually gotten the "I'm so good I don't know why anyone else bothers," line from someone who was dead serious about it. The interesting thing is that he was a "name" that I had started hanging around because I was agog at his guitar playing, but I never could think the same of him as a human being after that. A shame because he really was a brilliant musician and performer.
"So when my self-control is functioning I simply say, "Thanks." "
That's what I've trained myself to do, but admit it took some training. Used to do the whole getting embaressed thing, but just saying "Thanks" takes a lot less energy.
KFG
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Great thread John. Must remember to change my profile
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Cath
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
It all depends on context, doesn't it?
I mean, there are sessions out there where I would be considered some sort of whistle god; where I know more tunes than all of the rest of the players combined, and play them faster, cleaner, and with considerably more style. Anything realistic I said there about my skill would sound like false modesty.
And then, there's my home session, where I'm at best a very distant third among the regular whistlers, I'm lucky if I can keep up with a third of the tunes on a given night, and at least one of the players treats me with thinly veiled contempt for my lack of skill.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by Sol Foster
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Good Point ,Sol. I believe I have seen you play in both situations. I am one who thinks you are a whistle god. When I have told you that you are my inspiration, you just smiled and chuckled and went on.
# Posted on January 18th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
What have I been saying since I came on this site.
Much better to do as I do and just say you are the best in the world. To hell with false modesty, gets right up my nose.
Mind you, it helps when you are the best.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I'm in agreement with the phantom & KFG regarding receiving compliments. It's something I've always had great difficulty in dealing with - and after many, many years, I've now learned to simply say "thanks" as well..
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
The humility I saw in a great musician at my first real session in Ireland has been one of those magic moments that crystallised my interest in playing the music. W
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by dogbox
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Just read the rest of this. How could JfiddlerH say such a thing when I allow him to play with me, just a challenge to myself really, I know the tune even if he doesn't.
As for compliments. If someone says to me "You can fairly play that drum" I would normally say "Tell me something I don't know".
If they tell me that I am great on the whistle, I tell them (honestly) that I only play one tune.
If they tell me I am great on the mandolin, I say thanks, because, as M.G suggests, they don't have a clue, and saying thanks is the easiest way out.
In short, you must have some idea about your ability, you should know your limits, good, bad or indifferent.
Must change my handle to "Honest Joe".
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
"Where's Bodhran Bliss when we need him?"
Well Jack, it looks like if ye ask, ye shall receive.
KFG
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
hahaha
I knew he would nip it in the bud.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Agree re the comments about how difficult it can be accepting compliments.
I read somewhere many many moons ago that the first mark of a true gentlemen is the ability to handle an insult gracefully, and that the second is to do the same with a compliment. Interesting juxtaposition.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Tish
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
No, no, no, no, no!
The first mark of a gentleman is that he knows how to play the bagpipes, but chooses not to.
Personally, I'm not a gentleman, I only had a gentleman's education.
So I would play the bagpipes if I could.
And I probably don't know any gentlemen either. Although all my lady friends are ladies.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I just noticed something... Blissters says,
"If someone says to me "You can fairly play that drum" I would normally say "Tell me something I don't know"."
Notice he says "If" and not "When". I wonder when and if anyone will ever say that to him... hmmmm
Well at least he'll be ready with his answer...
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
About a month ago one of the punters at our session said to me "You must be the best bodhran player in Ireland". JfiddlerH laughed, the others held their breath.
Finally I said with undisguised scorn "What do you mean "Ireland?"
The world is my oyster.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
First time he heard one then?
hahaha
(you realize I'm just taking the mick... right?)
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I'm warming to bodhran bliss. There's something actually very humble about boasting that you are good on a thing you can learn everything there is to know about it in an hour
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
He's better than you think Michael; he hasn't had any lessons and has only been playing for 20 minutes.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
haha. And he didn't even buy the book
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
On the topic of accepting compliments gracefully, I propose the following:
- someone who enjoyed your music : you play that thing really well
- you : you enjoyed it eh?
- SWEYM : Yes, very much so, thank you.
- you: You're welcome
A compliment, whether given by someone who has a clue or who doesn't, means that the giver enjoyed your playing. The best two answers are "thank you" and the more cryptic "you're welcome"
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Tirno
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
A punter asks Tiger Woods if he is any good at golf. "No, I've just had one lesson" says Tiger and then goes out to win the masters.
That is false modesty, and lies, at its worst.
But if Tiger says, "I'm the best in the world", is he boasting?
I'd say he was being honest.
And Conan, ex St Mary's boy and all that, you do play the bodhran, with or without books. Twenty minutes would be enough time to learn the button accordian, I realise piano/accordian is much harder.
But the big question on everybodys' lips is "Does M.G play the bodhran?
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Hells Bells.
Who'd have thought that a group of people who are only here because they play music in public places could have so many hang ups about how to react when someone pays them a compliment.
If someone thanks me for playing, I say "You're welcome"
- Because they are welcome.
If they express an opinion that I play well, I say "You're very kind"
- Because they are kind, regardless of where my skill fits in the global scale.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
BB all us oul' thumpers are in your shadow :¬)
Right enough, piano accordion is a lot harder to play because even people who haven't heard it still hate it.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
I think I remember playing one for 20 mins or so when I was a kid. Mastered it. Moved on
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Is that what normal people do?
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
weirdo
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
lol! Mind if I "borrow" that one?
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Michael G finally comes out of the closet, and confesses to having played a bodhran.
Forgive me for asking Michael, call it curiousity, but why?
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
"But if Tiger says, "I'm the best in the world", is he boasting?
I'd say he was being honest."
I've been know to say "I hold the world record," or "I'm ranked number one."
This are simple statements of fact.
"I'm the best in the world," is almost always a provisional and subjective judgement. You may well be the best in the world yesterday there, but suck today here.
KFG
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Why? Oh come on and give us a break will ye. I was only a kid for christ sake. Anyone out there wanna tell us they never did daft things when they were a kid?
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by ...
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Ladies and gentlemen... I think I have found the solution to the bodhrán problem. May I present: The Bodhrán Table - http://larkinthemorning.com/images/350/bod060.jpg
Now... if this little number was at the center of your session it would be a handy place for drinks and mobile phones. And if someone shows up with a bodhran you could point to it and say, "We already have one... thanks."
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
What on earth makes you think they wouldn't play it?
KFG
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
It's hard to play when there's drinks and mobile phones on top of it.
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
No it's not. It's hard on the drinks and mobile phones.
KFG
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by KFG
Re: Modesty or utter dishonesty?
Morons. That's a "cymbal bodhran", it has a small pedal at the back which makes the base operate like a cymbal. Already very popular in the good old U.S.of A.
You only play them with drinks on them when you want to improvise with the different notes each glass can make, given the quantity of liquid in it.
Mobiles on it should be avoided. That's just like using a beat box or backing tapes, it is not traditional.
# Posted on January 20th 2006 by bodhran bliss