This is a plea for help from all the experienced guitarists out there. I play flute and for several years I've been playing and singing with my father who is an experienced guitartist from the skiffle era. Now I'm playing almost exclusivley ITM on a simple system flute, I'm struggling to advise my father on how to accompany me. We can mostly work out the chords, but ryhythm is harder. Anyone have any good strum patterns or ideas to help?
JOHN BLAKE JOHN BLAKE JOHN BLAKE!
Its the best style accompaniment - of course there are millions of guitarists who can do it - he is by no means the best, but he has recorded extensively.
Also on the kerrywhistles.com site, in the movies section, there is video footage of Tony Byrne under the "At First Light" heading. He plays with them in the files named "London"
Great individual style.
Most people do down down up for jog rythm while manages very well with up-down
Am I right in thinking that a lot of damping helps to create a good rhythm and prevent the main instrument(s) being swamped? This is what I think I hear when listening to recordings.
Thats John Doyle-esque - personally i think its boring if its like that through out the whole tune for the whole set. its nice to strum lightly and dtrum through little runs that follow the melody. Remember, recordings are a different ball game to sessions themselves.
I hear that a man named Seamus Duffy has formed the "Callithumpian School of Irish Accompaniment," and is offering free lessons to those who wish to learn more about this subject. Ptarmagin started a thread on the man and his work on 17 December. I would add a link here, if I was more computer literate.
stefan - thanks for your input, but the problem is more fundamental. Are there any more standard simple patterns for jigs, reels etc that anyone knows? Or somewhere to hear clean simple examples?
Look at the coyotebanjo site that Chris Smith maintains, lots of hints there, or buy his book on accompanying Irish music, it is a bit intimidating at first, but if you work through the book and CD, and all the lessons from front to back, it is the equivalent of an advanced degree course on the topic (I still haven't finished it myself).
John Doyle, one of the hot new guitarists, has an instructional DVD/video on the topic, which is good, and has a CD-ROM instructional disk out as well. His style, however, is very distinctive, complex and not necessarily accessible for the beginning accompanist.
The 'holy grail" of irish accompaniment is to hit a strum on every eighth note, and by accenting certain of those eighth notes, add texture. For reels, this is down up down up etc, with the emphasis usually on the first of the four eighth notes. For jigs, two schools of thoughts, you can go down up down down up down, etc, putting accents on the first and fourth stroke, both down strokes (this is the most common). Or you can go down up down up down up, (just back and forth), putting an accent on the first stroke (down) and the fourth stroke (up). Not as many people do that, I think because it is harder to put an emphasis on the up stroke.
This hit every beat approach takes a very light touch to move that fast, and also not to overpower the melody. Damping with your hand can also help, but like pointed out above, it can be overdone.
As an entry point, you can start by mimicing the old piano accompanists--the good old bass-chord-bass-chord oom pah style of accompaniment works with reels, hornpipes and polkas. For jigs, you can do an oom pah as well, with the oom coming on beat one, the pah coming on beat three, the oom coming on beat four, the pah coming on beat six, kind of a loping rhythm. This actually is more of a single jig rhythm than a double jig rhythm, but it works with both in a pinch.
Some on this site will probably not like that entry level advice, as it is pretty simplistic and corny sounding, but my feeling is you need to crawl before you walk.
And there are far more approaches as well, this is just a taste.
Mostly, listen to CDs and copy what you like.
It is a great joy to play together with family and friends, I bet you and your dad will have lots of fun!
Stefanpaz gives good info.
Bear in mind that ideally the rhythm should follow the rhythm of the tune
as opposed to following strict rhythm patterns.
But as you say the problem is more fundamental, so maybe this might get him started:
D-Down strum, U=upstrum
There are two main jig rhythms that people use
For the 1 2 3 4 5 6 jig rhythm
D U D D U D or D U D U D U (with a bit more emphasis on the second U, ie the 4th beat)
For reels 1+2+3+4+ = D U D U D U D U
Of course you can put in pauses for strokes
So you might have D%DUDUDU
(where % is a pause, and has the same time as downstroke or upstroke)
stefan, I started writing a site about (what I've learned about) Celtic guitar accompaniment. Not that I consider myself any kind of definitive guide at all, but people keep asking me for tips. So I thought I might actually put all my collective tips on a website.
I have two sections there, one on the chord patterns I find useful, one on the rhythms I found useful. Was going to add some more sections, but just haven't got around to it.
Let me know if you find it in any way useful. Also feel free to vent your rage in the supplied web forum if you don't.
Hi Chris - that looks good.
I'm not really a guitarist, but I'm alright at backing tunes in the Less is more style thats all, and I know thats what I like to hear if/ when Im playing melody. I play open G in backing.
Maybe your site would be better for Neil C?
I'm finished now, so I'm going home. Ahhhh the life of a teacher.
Probably a good idea to find an instructor if you can. Dear old Dad may be a bit set in his ways, as much as he'd like to accompany his son (you are both quite lucky to have each other). It's hard to teach yourself something, especially if you've been doing something else for a long time.
I'd look for a good basic player of Celtic accompaniment too. I love Doyle, Cahill, Mcleod, etc., but they can be quite clever, and that's hard on newbies. You might want to consider a music camp as well. There's some excellent ones here in the States, and in Scotland and Ireland, and perhaps England too. A week of intensive training beats six months of tortuous lessons, more if you're learning on your own.
Your dad probably has the chops, but just needs to learn the style. Good luck.
Thanks Chris - looks very useful.
I'm again impressed with the helpfulness of people here - thanks to everyone, we'll try this out over Christmas and if we make a nice noise maybe we can post some recordings!
You say you've got the chords sussed, so try this: If you get your dad to start the tune just using his tried and tested skiffle strum, then you join in with a reel at that tempo. It will sound great.
When guitar was still my main instrument of choice for accompaniment I don't think I ever just strummed on every beat of every bar, nor would I recommend anyone else to do so. My personal style incorporated a lot of american-style flat-picking of bass runs between the chords, emphasising a chord on a strong beat or chord-change by letting it ring out till the next strong beat, certainly some damping of the chord so as not to keep it continously ringing out all the way through the tune - in short, varying it so as to accent the tune you are playing under, and I would emphasis that word UNDER.
Oh, and listen to everyone else you can, of course.
I’ll repeat the advice to listen to lots of different players. Then experiment, taking a minimalist attitude at first. It’ll develop naturally from there. The walking bass/chords, counterpoint, etc. are icing on the cake. The cake is the rhythm.
And remember that whatever keeps the beat and sounds okay to you *is* okay. Most of the styles heard today are no older than my beard and have no more claim to authenticity or correctness than a skiffle rhythm. It’s more important to go ahead and get started playing *something* than to fret over whether it’s correct or acceptable. Just keep playing and keep listening and let your own taste be your guide.
Neil -- if your father is any good at all at learning anything at all by ear, and if he understands that there's a certain feel that goes along with this stuff and a lot of stuff that doesn't, then sit down with him with some recordings with a variety of backers on them and have him LISTEN to how it goes. If he's any good, he'll understand immediately how what they're doing differs from what he's used to doing and will adjust.
Honest. This way you don't have to tell him HOW to do anything. He can choose the style of backing he likes, and he'll understand more about what makes this stuff sound like itself and be able to help that along.
I also would have thought that a skiffle-type player would be halfway to getting to grips with a good percussive style, Neil C - for reel backing at least. The jigs are another story - follow the advice above and it should develop; for my two cents, yes I would dampen the strings a little at least and keep the wrist loose loose loose. And most importantly, Listen to what you sound like and make your own way with it - John Doyle and others are great players because they are doing their own thing (I mention him specifically because he seems to be the world's most popular victim of identity theft).
Best of luck
Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Help needed on guitar accompaniment
This is a plea for help from all the experienced guitarists out there. I play flute and for several years I've been playing and singing with my father who is an experienced guitartist from the skiffle era. Now I'm playing almost exclusivley ITM on a simple system flute, I'm struggling to advise my father on how to accompany me. We can mostly work out the chords, but ryhythm is harder. Anyone have any good strum patterns or ideas to help?
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by NeilC
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
JOHN BLAKE JOHN BLAKE JOHN BLAKE!
Its the best style accompaniment - of course there are millions of guitarists who can do it - he is by no means the best, but he has recorded extensively.
Also on the kerrywhistles.com site, in the movies section, there is video footage of Tony Byrne under the "At First Light" heading. He plays with them in the files named "London"
Great individual style.
Most people do down down up for jog rythm while manages very well with up-down
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
jig rythm....
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Am I right in thinking that a lot of damping helps to create a good rhythm and prevent the main instrument(s) being swamped? This is what I think I hear when listening to recordings.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by NeilC
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Thats John Doyle-esque - personally i think its boring if its like that through out the whole tune for the whole set. its nice to strum lightly and dtrum through little runs that follow the melody. Remember, recordings are a different ball game to sessions themselves.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
I hear that a man named Seamus Duffy has formed the "Callithumpian School of Irish Accompaniment," and is offering free lessons to those who wish to learn more about this subject. Ptarmagin started a thread on the man and his work on 17 December. I would add a link here, if I was more computer literate.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
stefan - thanks for your input, but the problem is more fundamental. Are there any more standard simple patterns for jigs, reels etc that anyone knows? Or somewhere to hear clean simple examples?
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by NeilC
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Look at the coyotebanjo site that Chris Smith maintains, lots of hints there, or buy his book on accompanying Irish music, it is a bit intimidating at first, but if you work through the book and CD, and all the lessons from front to back, it is the equivalent of an advanced degree course on the topic (I still haven't finished it myself).
John Doyle, one of the hot new guitarists, has an instructional DVD/video on the topic, which is good, and has a CD-ROM instructional disk out as well. His style, however, is very distinctive, complex and not necessarily accessible for the beginning accompanist.
The 'holy grail" of irish accompaniment is to hit a strum on every eighth note, and by accenting certain of those eighth notes, add texture. For reels, this is down up down up etc, with the emphasis usually on the first of the four eighth notes. For jigs, two schools of thoughts, you can go down up down down up down, etc, putting accents on the first and fourth stroke, both down strokes (this is the most common). Or you can go down up down up down up, (just back and forth), putting an accent on the first stroke (down) and the fourth stroke (up). Not as many people do that, I think because it is harder to put an emphasis on the up stroke.
This hit every beat approach takes a very light touch to move that fast, and also not to overpower the melody. Damping with your hand can also help, but like pointed out above, it can be overdone.
As an entry point, you can start by mimicing the old piano accompanists--the good old bass-chord-bass-chord oom pah style of accompaniment works with reels, hornpipes and polkas. For jigs, you can do an oom pah as well, with the oom coming on beat one, the pah coming on beat three, the oom coming on beat four, the pah coming on beat six, kind of a loping rhythm. This actually is more of a single jig rhythm than a double jig rhythm, but it works with both in a pinch.
Some on this site will probably not like that entry level advice, as it is pretty simplistic and corny sounding, but my feeling is you need to crawl before you walk.
And there are far more approaches as well, this is just a taste.
Mostly, listen to CDs and copy what you like.
It is a great joy to play together with family and friends, I bet you and your dad will have lots of fun!
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Stefanpaz gives good info.
Bear in mind that ideally the rhythm should follow the rhythm of the tune
as opposed to following strict rhythm patterns.
But as you say the problem is more fundamental, so maybe this might get him started:
D-Down strum, U=upstrum
There are two main jig rhythms that people use
For the 1 2 3 4 5 6 jig rhythm
D U D D U D or D U D U D U (with a bit more emphasis on the second U, ie the 4th beat)
For reels 1+2+3+4+ = D U D U D U D U
Of course you can put in pauses for strokes
So you might have D%DUDUDU
(where % is a pause, and has the same time as downstroke or upstroke)
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by BegF
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Explore the Green Linnet site:
http://www.greenlinnet.com/shopping/search_list.cfm
I like Dennis Cahills backup of Martin Hayes.
Or the Vertual Session: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by baglady
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
stefan, I started writing a site about (what I've learned about) Celtic guitar accompaniment. Not that I consider myself any kind of definitive guide at all, but people keep asking me for tips. So I thought I might actually put all my collective tips on a website.
http://chrisdewin.wintergreen.in
I have two sections there, one on the chord patterns I find useful, one on the rhythms I found useful. Was going to add some more sections, but just haven't got around to it.
Let me know if you find it in any way useful. Also feel free to vent your rage in the supplied web forum if you don't.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Hi Chris,
FYI I’m getting syntax errors trying to view the site.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by BegF
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Hi Chris - that looks good.
I'm not really a guitarist, but I'm alright at backing tunes in the Less is more style thats all, and I know thats what I like to hear if/ when Im playing melody. I play open G in backing.
Maybe your site would be better for Neil C?
I'm finished now, so I'm going home. Ahhhh the life of a teacher.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Probably a good idea to find an instructor if you can. Dear old Dad may be a bit set in his ways, as much as he'd like to accompany his son (you are both quite lucky to have each other). It's hard to teach yourself something, especially if you've been doing something else for a long time.
I'd look for a good basic player of Celtic accompaniment too. I love Doyle, Cahill, Mcleod, etc., but they can be quite clever, and that's hard on newbies. You might want to consider a music camp as well. There's some excellent ones here in the States, and in Scotland and Ireland, and perhaps England too. A week of intensive training beats six months of tortuous lessons, more if you're learning on your own.
Your dad probably has the chops, but just needs to learn the style. Good luck.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
BegF you mean on sections 3 & 4 on the Celtic Guitar primers?
Consider those areas under construction.
stephanpaz, sorry that post was meant for Neil C. Duh!
Neil, check out my previous post.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Thanks Chris - looks very useful.
I'm again impressed with the helpfulness of people here - thanks to everyone, we'll try this out over Christmas and if we make a nice noise maybe we can post some recordings!
Merry Christmas!
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by NeilC
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
You say you've got the chords sussed, so try this: If you get your dad to start the tune just using his tried and tested skiffle strum, then you join in with a reel at that tempo. It will sound great.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by ...
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Are you kidding ?
When you say skiffle rhythm , are we talking Lonnie Donegan
version of Midnight Special - that kind of thing ?
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by BegF
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Yeah!
Miss MacLeod over "Rock Island Line" works.
Almost.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Bren
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
When guitar was still my main instrument of choice for accompaniment I don't think I ever just strummed on every beat of every bar, nor would I recommend anyone else to do so. My personal style incorporated a lot of american-style flat-picking of bass runs between the chords, emphasising a chord on a strong beat or chord-change by letting it ring out till the next strong beat, certainly some damping of the chord so as not to keep it continously ringing out all the way through the tune - in short, varying it so as to accent the tune you are playing under, and I would emphasis that word UNDER.
Oh, and listen to everyone else you can, of course.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
John Doyle. Get his instructional video NOW. This will tell you everything you need to know about Irish rhythm.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
I’ll repeat the advice to listen to lots of different players. Then experiment, taking a minimalist attitude at first. It’ll develop naturally from there. The walking bass/chords, counterpoint, etc. are icing on the cake. The cake is the rhythm.
And remember that whatever keeps the beat and sounds okay to you *is* okay. Most of the styles heard today are no older than my beard and have no more claim to authenticity or correctness than a skiffle rhythm. It’s more important to go ahead and get started playing *something* than to fret over whether it’s correct or acceptable. Just keep playing and keep listening and let your own taste be your guide.
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
Neil -- if your father is any good at all at learning anything at all by ear, and if he understands that there's a certain feel that goes along with this stuff and a lot of stuff that doesn't, then sit down with him with some recordings with a variety of backers on them and have him LISTEN to how it goes. If he's any good, he'll understand immediately how what they're doing differs from what he's used to doing and will adjust.
This way you don't have to tell him HOW to do anything. He can choose the style of backing he likes, and he'll understand more about what makes this stuff sound like itself and be able to help that along.
Honest.
Have fun!
# Posted on December 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
I also would have thought that a skiffle-type player would be halfway to getting to grips with a good percussive style, Neil C - for reel backing at least. The jigs are another story - follow the advice above and it should develop; for my two cents, yes I would dampen the strings a little at least and keep the wrist loose loose loose. And most importantly, Listen to what you sound like and make your own way with it - John Doyle and others are great players because they are doing their own thing (I mention him specifically because he seems to be the world's most popular victim of identity theft).
Best of luck
# Posted on December 21st 2005 by hurleystick
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
No, do not dampen the strings! They will rust!
You may, however, damp them.
- A.R.Grammarian
# Posted on December 21st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
You're off my Christmas list Bob....
# Posted on December 21st 2005 by hurleystick
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
# Posted on December 21st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
OK OK you're back on...
# Posted on December 21st 2005 by hurleystick
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
# Posted on December 22nd 2005 by Bob himself