It's true that Irish folk or people who spend lots of time where there's easy access to the source of the music always think that folk NOT in that situation are being way too analytical, way too hyper about things...but Foy does point out that we have to be. Because it isn't something that we were immersed in at a young age, we have to substitute a much less natural way of learning than someone who grew up around the stuff. It's like assuming that someone who has never tied a ghillie is going to be able to dance in Riverdance in a month.
Doug Greenberg talked about this when I asked him about learning Cape Breton when you're not from there or living there. He laughed and said, "Basically it's an attitude thing and you have to be a certain personality type. COMPLETELY obsessive. If you're coming at it from age 30 from Mississippi or where ever, you've missed thirty of the most important years, especially that first ten, not listening and being immersed, in a natural way, to this music. So it's not part of your first language. Somebody like Buddy MacMaster, part of his upbringing was the music as well as how to learn to speak and walk and talk. It's part of how he breathes and walks and relates to people. You can't just say, 'I'm going to listen to recordings and I'm going to figure out how they're doing the rhythms.' First you have to say, 'I'm at a huge disadvantage here because I'm learning something like Sanskirt' -- you can't just say this is all fiddle tunes and it's all basically the same. You're never going to get it that way, that's why I say you have to be obsessive about it. You have to be so focused on the person you want to learn from, you have to try to be that person in a much more unnatural way than having grown up there. That's why most people do believe you have to have it in the blood and be brought up there -- because that's the only natural way of doing it."
So I think there's a point where you have to be pretty obsessive about all the petty details. But of course, too much of anything is too much -- so where is the point that you get more laid back? Where is the point that you don't care if people behave a certain way in a session? Where is the point where there's a difference between playing the Irish tune or playing Irish music, and when does it and when doesn't it matter?
I understand (or think i do) exactly what you're saying. I'm from Brazil, grew up listening to Bossa Nova and speaking Portuguese. For some reason, that kind of music is very popular in the USA among the "cool jazz" people, and some can play it well, but it's a major accomplishment. No matter how good you are, you already start with a couple of handicaps if you don't know the language and if you didn't grow up with that rhythm and the all that goes with it.
It's not just a question of learning one style of music, but being part of the culture that generated that kind of music. There are thousands of other styles, and there's the politics, and the things that make you happy and the things that make you angry, and the "feel" of being in a specific place and time, and all of this is inter-related.
Is there anything at all that could justify an expatriate Brazilian trying to play Irish jigs and reels?
The only thing that comes to mind is that there is a sense in which music belongs to the world, it transcends national barriers. If i can't play Irish music, how could i play, for example, Bach? In the end it's not that entirely different; there are subtleties in Baroque ornamentation that parallel Irish music ornamentation. I'm a musician and a flute player, and i'm interested in flute music of many styles.
There's no justification for the wholesale commercial exploitation (and cute-ization) of all things Irish.
I'm not sure what i think of Riverdance; mostly i dislike it, but not for philosophical reasons.
But to answer your question, in my humble opinion, yes, lay back and enjoy the music. No reason to be uptight about it.
"Music belongs to the world..." I like that a lot. I'd love to hear what an expatriate Brazilian would do with "Finnegan's Wake"! How about some salsa slip-jigs? Reggae reels? Kabuki ceilis? Somebody stop me!
I have thought about this alot lately, in seeing the way different sessions and gatherings proceed. To me, folk music, including traditional Irish music, is a living tradition that takes root where people immigrate, and the natural process is for those people to then make it their own (as in Appalachia) and continue letting it live and breathe, taking on the charater of the people who play it in that new location. In a hundred years, I hope my great, great, grandchildren are playing a form of music that is based on the Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, and other styles brought here, but they have made it their own and let it take shape as Gallatin Valley style, just as there will be a Flathead style, or a Missoula style, in Montana.
I think there comes a point when you have to acknowledge that Irish music is alive in Ireland, the tradition has never died, and it doesn't need imitators in other parts of the world to keep it going. On the contrary, the music should INSPIRE those it is carried to, by whatever means, and then take on its new natural form as it is passed down to players who create a new tradition.
I look at it this way. My grandfather and his family spoke both Irish and English when they came here. My daddy was born in the US, yet he had a brogue and would use odd phrases of his daddy's, but did not learn to speak Irish. I speak with the accent of a Montanan, where I was born and raised, and although I sing Irish songs, I am NOT going to fake a brogue! I have great appreciation for "pure drop" tradition, but I think it is just as important for Irish descendents of immigrants to make their own tradition in the part of the world where they land, rather than to imitate what is already alive and thriving in Ireland.
I both agree and disagree, Alice. I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with what conclusion it seems to me you come to with those statements.
First, I don't intend to imitate. All players change the tradition for good or ill or whatever simply by playing the music. Imitating is what you do when you learn a tune exactly as your favorite players do it, down to the ornaments. That can be useful, and I've done it as a study, but I'm aware that that is imitation and not playing, nor is it following the tradition--it directly contradicts the tradition, as a matter of fact. In the act of the playing, you make choices. I see what you mean about having to start your own tradition (by which, in my own lexicon, I am taking that you mean forming your own music and philosophy of music), but I don't believe in freely changing things without understanding what you're changing and why. It's great to have passion when playing a tune, but let's face it, if it's not in tune, who wants to listen to it? Not me. Take that a step further. If it's not true to the Irish tradition, is it then Irish music? If it's not Irish music, then you're not an Irish player. At that point, I start losing interest, because I'm not interested in starting my own tradition. I'm not interested in making a form of music of my own yet. I want to understand the Irish tradition, speak that language, to know what I'm doing within those confines before widening out and finding my own voice, just like you must learn the alphabet before you can write The Great American Novel..
And so I think it's important to study, to work, to obsess a bit. Because this is NOT my natural background (fer catssake, I'm Chinese American, or is that Asian American these days, I forget?). I can cause what I would consider harm to the tradition by representing myself as an Irish player and not playing Irish music.
An aside: no offense to anyone, I hope, but I think it's offensive when people affect an Irish accent, or put on an act. As an American, it smacks of vaudeville minstrel theatre. Most Irish people I've talked to about it think it's just stupid.
Anyway, I don't believe that that all means I can take liberties with the Irish playing before I know what I'm doing. We're talking about a similar subject on another thread, actually.
Well, I am not talking about consciously trying to change Irish music, I am talking about the folk process that is alive - and I am also a stickler for listening to authentic players and singers and finding the oldest sources to learn from (and obsess about). Zina, I don't think we are much in disagreement. The change to a new style is a gradual process that happens over generations, even in Ireland, as anywhere else. I think today, what challenges trad music, is that technology and travel allow people to be less isolated, and be more eclectic in what they learn. Also, music has become a huge world wide entertainment industry. Those are pressures that influence how people play or sing the music. Many recordings become popular that are not done in the traditional style - for example, played way too fast, and singing - forgedaboudit - sean n
I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating abandoning - or even radically changing - the Tradition (whatever that means...). I saw this more as a way to vent about people who run their sessions so strictly that it's not fun anymore. Ultimately, folks will gravitate to the sessions that they enjoy the most - conservatives to the strict ones, and wild-eyed radicals to the ones with electric fiddles and synthesizers (I actually once saw an old-timer use a programmable keyboard and drum machine set up to play tunes so he could step dance on stage! This was up in Rhinebeck, NY, a major Northeastern session area).
Speaking only for myself - I prefer a bit of experimentation, although I agree that you have to know the rules before you can make any intelligent effort to bend them. I just don't want to be the curator of a museum, so I want a living, evolving tradition and lively, enjoyable sessions. If I can't find one, I'll get a bunch of hooligans together and start my own! (Just watch me! )
If Jeff gets much more relaxed, we'll never hear from him again, I think he'd be permanently asleep. *snicker*
I also think that we don't disagree in the broader sense, Alice. The trouble with having a virtual session is that we can't make the subtle distinctions we could make in conversation in person -- a wave of a hand here, a shrug there -- at a live session. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that somebody like Jeff or Will or me or you would be able to get together regularly or even once or twice for a session, so a virtual session is also a wonderful thing.
I think the trouble is mainly that people, speaking in general terms, tend to go to extremes. There's such a thing as being too relaxed about what goes on at a session. Then the hotshots take over, or the beginners do, or whatever -- SOME body isn't going to have much fun and eventually loses interest. There's also such a thing as being too strict about a session, which is supposed to be about good crack anyway, and then the hotshots take over, or the beginners do, or whatever...I'm sure you get my drift.
It's just that, in our area at least, it seems like the "relax" portion of the population seems to be in the majority, and it makes me crazy when things like people being bored by songs at sessions happen. (No, really, some guy at a pub session really told me once that he thought the singers should go away, because it interrupted the music! I really didn't even know what to say, I'm sure I looked like a fish in my astonishment.) That kind of thing is Not Allowed at any session I'm running, and I'm going to have a few things to say about it in any session I'm taking part of.
Same with over-strictness.
Mainly, I think, the trouble comes in when people have different definitions of what is socially acceptable, speaking in the minute sense rather than the large one. Americans have different mores from Irish. (I'm sure all the Irish portion of our membership thinks this discussion is a remarkable waste of time, but I promise them it isn't -- for me, at least.) Different factions of each group will have different mores from each other. And all those things tend to come out in sessions. So it's worth talking about to know what is acceptable and what isn't. I can't count how many stories I've heard of Americans making complete and utter fools of themselves in Irish sessions -- it would be nice to think that some talking now could mitigate that kind of thing.
I'm not sure if I started some of this yesterday by saying that people need to be more laid back and relax.....oooopps
well,yes, I was fortunate to spend my life immersed in Irish music, of all genres and with many styles and players, but my real point (poorly worded) was this....no matter who you are, you bring something unique to the music, and you will never repeat the same tune with the exact same phrasing and emotion twice. There is a living soul to Irish music being played throughout the World and there will always be good and then great exponents of that, but passion counts for more than style.
I also understand the need for somebody to shepherd a session in a particular direction, but it still needs to be fun. Unless you are gifted enough to make music your primary income, then this is what we do to relax. While it is true that the hotshots can take anything over, a good session boss needs to be the one calling the shots...and there should always, always be room for a new player to get a platform for their style. Don't mistake being relaxed for being sloppy....a good tune, played with soul, will always be tight, no matter the stylke, speed or phrasing. If you can close your eyes and the tune can carry you...then it's working!
So, please, if you are new to the style, then play first and study later. I would hate to think that anybody is afraid of learning the music for fear of not being a good stylist.
I am probably one of the worst players to use this site! I have a morbid fear of playing in front of others and I'm sure that everyone would be horrified with my interpretation of the tunes that I play....but there my tunes, I learned them, I love them ....and most important to me...my son loves them. He will grow up in the same tradition and I hope that he will bring his beauty and uniqueness to the music. After all, the living part is still more important than the tradition part.
Well, yeah, it was your post that started the subject! Mainly, y'see, I feel that the crack is just as important to a good session as the music, so seizing upon the fun subjects that everyone can shout about is much more fun than just posting tunes and saying, here, hope you like it. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, either.) So long as nobody's feelings get bruised or anything, it's fun.
Now, I have to say that I don't think you should play first and study later. I think you should do both at the same time!
I teach Irish stepdancing. (Although I don't have a TCRG myself -- I teach under a TCRG) And one thing I've been changing about how I teach recently is that I've stopped letting students learn things wrong for the sake of just dancing and having fun and then going back and correcting it. I've found that when you do this, it means that the student has to basically relearn a step all over again while trying to correct a form problem, and it's actually better to take more time while learning to incorporate things like form than it is to take less time and let them dance incorrectly, even though some students get impatient with form work. Among other things, that way they have a firm base to build upon as they learn more difficult steps. I don't teach the champions. I teach dancers the basic moves and beginning and intermediate steps. I teach them what they need to know to work on being champions. And that's the basic work of good form and getting it inherent into themselves, an automatic part of their dancing. When you know you do something well and correctly, you have so much more fun.
I am bringing the same thing to the table to my music now. I think it's important to learn it as correctly as you can, even if ten years from now, you realize that what you learned then isn't what's correct for you now. What is correct, exactly? Well, that's an entirely different and new subject to yell about!
And -- not to put too fine a point on it -- I think the living part IS part of the tradition part, and vice-versa. I don't think they can be separated out from each other neatly. I learned Belles of Tipperary from my teacher Shannon. No matter how often I play it or change it or tweak the setting, I'll have that history to it. Through her, that tune passes to me with a great deal more history than that -- that most of my friends know the tune as The New Policeman, for instance, adds even more crack surrounding the tune for me, for all the conversations we've had about the tune titles. Every time I play it differently, I'm reminded of how I learned it, and what variations Shannon used, and the ones I've heard from friends. I love that the tune is ever new, yet still firmly based out of the tradition it sprang from, with all the the non-music crack around it that makes up a heavy part of that tradition.
And I think it's important to know that making your own music is great, and good, and fun. It's also important to know when what you're playing is not particularly Irish, because if what you want is to play Irish music, then you damned well better know what that means. Otherwise you're only playing Irish melodies, not Irish music. There's nothing wrong with that. I know lots of people whose music I enjoy very much who do exactly that. But I respect them much more when they know what they choose to do, what bits are Irish and what bits are not. So I don't really agree that passion counts for more than style when it comes to playing Irish music. (Music, yes, music in general, your own personal music, etc.. Irish traditional music, no.) Those of us who already speak the musical language of Irish trad music as our first language have it much easier than those of us who have to do that artificially! You can jump straight to passion. Me, I have to learn how to spell "CAT" and "SPOT" first! I so never want to be somebody that everyone else says "she's a terrible player, of course, but she really loves the music, and she tries so hard" about!
thanks for the reply...it made me think a lot about the whole subject. Please don't feel that I'm being flippant when I talk about the fun, or the living parts of Irish music and, even though I don't consider myself a good player, I do consider what I play to be Irish music, not just half baked Irish melodies.
Please let me relay this story...
When I bought my mandolin, I had absolutely no musical experience. I couldn't play a note. I called several teachers and was met with a stony wall of sarcastic silence that I was 33 years of age, trying to learn to play. Had I given up at that stage, I might have never learned some of the beautiful tunes that I can now play with ease. So now, several years later, I can carry some tunes well, some tunes really well. But I still meet and listen to greater players on a daily basis. Now, I taught myself everything I know, from tuning, to best string sets (for my style) to reading music and I am very proud of that.
I could, however,have allowed the moral high ground to go to those who were more talented than I am, but didn't want to let me even try to reach a decent level.
Now I see things this way.... Irish music is a powerful emotive force that can turn heads when it's played well. I work real hard at playing well and if I come through all of this being able to carry one tune that turns one head, I will have achieved something special. If all people can say of me is that I was a terrible player, then they better be able to play a lot better!!
Better to try and fall down than not to try at all, or as a Legionnaire once said....those who do not challenge themselves should not complain about the mediocrity of their lives.
Oh, DEAR...did I sound like I was being pointed at you? I hope not! I wasn't in any way trying to make personal accusations about you or your playing or anything like that, I really wasn't. I like to flap my mouth around a lot on interesting subjects and to read other's viewpoints, but not if I've offended -- so I totally apologize if that's the case here.
I agree with you that one should never limit a student, especially for things like age. MyTCRGr, Ariel Bennett, has this as a pet peeve. There are a lot of Irish stepdancing schools that won't teach adults simply because they can't compete at World's, and because they think adults dancing is silly or useless, or some such. This makes Ariel's blood boil. To our school, all dancers are dancers, regardless of their age or sex or whatever, and it's a tenet of the school that we treat them all the same -- as dancers. I didn't really start playing Irish fiddle until a few years ago, myself, and really working at it last year.
And I'm the last person to say that you have to be off a certain ancestry to learn Irish music! (Being of Chinese descent, myself.)
Jeff, no way! I'd love to come out there and play at your session, but I'd never run the thing unless I'd been there for a while! My teachesr and friends, Shannon and Matt Heaton, are moving to Boston. I'm sure I'll be visiting them at some point or other -- we'll have to meet up when I do!
You have very interesting points, are very knowledgeable on the whole subject and made me appreciate that perhaps I take the whole thing a little too much for granted. I agree entirely that there should be no barrier for any students in any disciplines.
Oh, whew. I just wanted to make sure. You never know with computers.
I'm not so sure there's such a thing as being very knowledgeable about this stuff, if you know what I mean. The more I find out, the less I discover that I know about it. But I have to say that I envy you your Irishness! Heh.
I think every non-Irish person with a serious interest in playing Irish music has thoughts on this. I have often thought, the only way I can play like an Irishman (say what you will, but I believe it is more than simply being born and raised in the tradition) is to assume an Irish accent, become a Roman Catholic, learn to think like an Irishman etc. - basically, re-invent myself as an Irishman. But the fact is, I am a Jew, born and raised in England, and if I try to deny my Jewishness and my Englishness, I am immediately being untrue to myself. I think this would defeat the object of playing music, full stop, as good music should be a form of genuine
expression.
I try to respect the Irish musical tradition, and I love it for what it is, but there is a point where my own individuality cuts through, and I'm damned if I'm going to stop it.
Hello, David. I agree. I was thinking this morning about how this is so similar to being an artist or writer. My degree is in fine art, and as a painter, I searched to discover who I am, connecting to the history of my family and where I was raised, what my deepest emotions were - my work would naturally flow from that, expressing what is unique to me, in a way no one else could. This is true in all the arts, from music, to visual arts, to literature and acting. Each person who reaches the depths of their being and to know the self, reflects that in what they do and what they create. (Shallow people produce shallow work, in other words.) As a singer, I was taught to not imitate other singers' voices, but to learn the technique of using my own voice to its greatest natural potential, in range, tone, and flexibility. I learned repertoire from Italian arias, that are like training an athlete, to ballads and Broadway. That foundation, just like learning the skills of how to paint, gave me the starting point to express myself. But, in order to do that, I had to be in touch with who I am, as well as connecting to the genres of music that resonate with my own love (obsessions) and sensibilities. It was a natural to sing folk music from Ireland, since I grew up listening to it, but I sing it after making it my own. I think this relates to the saying that there is a difference between playing notes and making music. It takes, time, also to get to that point. Life's pain seems to hone the edge, more than the pleasures. When I was in my 20's, alot of people close to me died. I was a serious person for a long time. I'll be 50 in December, and my 20's seem just like yesterday, yet a lifetime away.
Now I am finding that since I've picked up the whistle again, it is the slow airs that I learned as songs that easily come to me, just like I am singing them. The fast dance music just isn't as personal for me. I guess it's that serious side of my nature.
D'you know, Alice, I was just thinking about that same thing driving home from our show today. (One of our students got married today, so we danced at the reception.) Why is it that singers, when they learn within the tradition, learn the all important notion that you have to make the song yours, personalize it, almost immediately, while if you learn, say, fiddle, you don't find that out unless you're lucky enough to get yourself under some very good teachers? Is it because there's so many technical things to learn first, fingering, bowing, articulation, tone, phrasing...? (Aagh, I get overwhelmed just thinking about it all.) It's one of the first things a singer learns, insofar as I can tell from talking to singers, that you have to internalize the song, and spit it back out so that it comes from your own experience.
On the other hand, I was told recently about a singer who took a pop/rock song from the seventies and switched out a place name to a county in Ireland, and called that personalizing the song. No, really.
For me, the problem comes in finding the balance. Yes, you have to be able to play technically well enough to be on tune, on time, etc. Yes, you have to play so that your individual style comes through (otherwise, in my mind anyway, you've stepped out of the tradition). But you also have to cultivate a pretty firm grip on what is and isn't acceptable in terms of Irish music, or when you choose to take it out of that arena either partially or entirely.
When does it stop being Irish? When is it still Irish? Is it ALL acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you only decide when you hear it? If somebody like Eileen Ivers does it, is it automatically still Irish? And what about -- Naomi? (Heh. Sorry. Only a joke somebody who grew up with The Electric Company would get.)
Yes,Zina,that's a good point about voice/instrument. Any instrument is at one remove from the human voice and because of the physical aspects of playing it's easy to forget the things that come naturally to a singer like phrasing and so on. You can easily play a line in such a way that,if you were to sing it,would sound completely unnatural.
Intonation is another can of worms-because of the almost global curse of 'equal' temperament (sorry all you pianos&accordions out there) some regional styles are sometimes thought to play 'too' sharp and singers and players with just intonation will clash with western piano harmonies.There again, I would rather hear some players play one tune with so-called imperfect tuning than a few others play a whole set of tunes perfectly but without the spirit which makes it live.
Interesting to read your angst about not being from Ireland, nor am I, living in the North East of Scotland. I too have an Irish granny and I play the Scottish music from around my area as well as Irish music. We, as people who love this music, should rememeber that the kids around you, and me, and in Ireland, are listening to Britney Spears. For God's sake don't worry about whether you feel 'authentic' enough. The world domination of trivial music should be enough for us all to keep plugging away at our chosen love, and as far as I'm concerned, I want as many people as possible to try to keep this exceptional fiddle tradition going. In a funny sort of way I suppose we'd all like to trace our heritage roots back to Sligo, but as long as our cultural roots are doing the job, the music will survive.
Zina, just a few comments, on making a tune your own. It already is!!! If you play it, it already sounds different than any other fiddler. If you give life to the tune, then it is yours. So the key to making a tune yours, IMO, is to give life to the tune. You can already do that. It might take a few years of fiddling before you like the way the tune sounds under your bow. If you like the way the tune sounds when you play it, even if it sounds different than you wanted it to sound, then the tune is yours.
Not to discourage you from studying the music. Your drive to do that is a part of you, and will be a part of your music. Study the music, and try to understand what it is that gives life to a tune when you play it. That is you, showing up in your music.
Have to agree with Doug Greenberg about the first 10 years of life. But, there is also the first 3 years of fiddling! That is equally important.
At least in my experience, it was. Let me explain. For the last year, I have put in a lot of time to strengthen my timing, to get an even flow of notes, and a steady rhythm. It is working, but... I listened to a little tape that I made today (with a ghetto blaster), and guess what? My rhythm is distinctly French Canadian. It is the first time that I have listened to a recording of my fiddling in a year, and although my timing has improved, I sound more French Canadian than I ever did.
My first 3 years of fiddling were spent mainly with a fiddler named Maurice. Even though we hardly see each other anymore, I continue to come closer to the style of his music. All this, in spite of the fact that I have spent the last years studying Cape Breton fiddling, and the last few months looking at Irish fiddling. (And I thought that there was a big Irish influence in my music?)
So we each play a tune in our own way. How does soemone get to sound that really "Irish" swingy way. I keep trying but never get there. Is it because when i first started out i was trying to sound like Sean keane / Tommy peoples (as they were in 1970s). What Im picking up here is that should just get on and play and enjoy it (which is what I want) rather than beat myself up for not being able to sound like i grew up in sligo, clare or wherever.
however i do know there are musicians in the USA who grew up there who do sound really Irish (How did they do it?)
On the Importance of Being Laid Back
On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Okay, I KNOW I'm always quoting Barry Foy, but...
It's true that Irish folk or people who spend lots of time where there's easy access to the source of the music always think that folk NOT in that situation are being way too analytical, way too hyper about things...but Foy does point out that we have to be. Because it isn't something that we were immersed in at a young age, we have to substitute a much less natural way of learning than someone who grew up around the stuff. It's like assuming that someone who has never tied a ghillie is going to be able to dance in Riverdance in a month.
Doug Greenberg talked about this when I asked him about learning Cape Breton when you're not from there or living there. He laughed and said, "Basically it's an attitude thing and you have to be a certain personality type. COMPLETELY obsessive. If you're coming at it from age 30 from Mississippi or where ever, you've missed thirty of the most important years, especially that first ten, not listening and being immersed, in a natural way, to this music. So it's not part of your first language. Somebody like Buddy MacMaster, part of his upbringing was the music as well as how to learn to speak and walk and talk. It's part of how he breathes and walks and relates to people. You can't just say, 'I'm going to listen to recordings and I'm going to figure out how they're doing the rhythms.' First you have to say, 'I'm at a huge disadvantage here because I'm learning something like Sanskirt' -- you can't just say this is all fiddle tunes and it's all basically the same. You're never going to get it that way, that's why I say you have to be obsessive about it. You have to be so focused on the person you want to learn from, you have to try to be that person in a much more unnatural way than having grown up there. That's why most people do believe you have to have it in the blood and be brought up there -- because that's the only natural way of doing it."
So I think there's a point where you have to be pretty obsessive about all the petty details. But of course, too much of anything is too much -- so where is the point that you get more laid back? Where is the point that you don't care if people behave a certain way in a session? Where is the point where there's a difference between playing the Irish tune or playing Irish music, and when does it and when doesn't it matter?
Zina
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Is it just a waste of time, then?
I understand (or think i do) exactly what you're saying. I'm from Brazil, grew up listening to Bossa Nova and speaking Portuguese. For some reason, that kind of music is very popular in the USA among the "cool jazz" people, and some can play it well, but it's a major accomplishment. No matter how good you are, you already start with a couple of handicaps if you don't know the language and if you didn't grow up with that rhythm and the all that goes with it.
It's not just a question of learning one style of music, but being part of the culture that generated that kind of music. There are thousands of other styles, and there's the politics, and the things that make you happy and the things that make you angry, and the "feel" of being in a specific place and time, and all of this is inter-related.
Is there anything at all that could justify an expatriate Brazilian trying to play Irish jigs and reels?
The only thing that comes to mind is that there is a sense in which music belongs to the world, it transcends national barriers. If i can't play Irish music, how could i play, for example, Bach? In the end it's not that entirely different; there are subtleties in Baroque ornamentation that parallel Irish music ornamentation. I'm a musician and a flute player, and i'm interested in flute music of many styles.
There's no justification for the wholesale commercial exploitation (and cute-ization) of all things Irish.
I'm not sure what i think of Riverdance; mostly i dislike it, but not for philosophical reasons.
But to answer your question, in my humble opinion, yes, lay back and enjoy the music. No reason to be uptight about it.
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by glauber
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
"Music belongs to the world..." I like that a lot. I'd love to hear what an expatriate Brazilian would do with "Finnegan's Wake"! How about some salsa slip-jigs? Reggae reels? Kabuki ceilis? Somebody stop me!
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
...I forgot Flamenco Fleadh...
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Oh JEFF...stop, stop STOP....LOL
Did you just not get enough sleep this weekend? Heh.
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Actually, Z, I'm always like this. Aren't you glad you live in Colorado & I live in NJ?
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
I have thought about this alot lately, in seeing the way different sessions and gatherings proceed. To me, folk music, including traditional Irish music, is a living tradition that takes root where people immigrate, and the natural process is for those people to then make it their own (as in Appalachia) and continue letting it live and breathe, taking on the charater of the people who play it in that new location. In a hundred years, I hope my great, great, grandchildren are playing a form of music that is based on the Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, and other styles brought here, but they have made it their own and let it take shape as Gallatin Valley style, just as there will be a Flathead style, or a Missoula style, in Montana.
I think there comes a point when you have to acknowledge that Irish music is alive in Ireland, the tradition has never died, and it doesn't need imitators in other parts of the world to keep it going. On the contrary, the music should INSPIRE those it is carried to, by whatever means, and then take on its new natural form as it is passed down to players who create a new tradition.
I look at it this way. My grandfather and his family spoke both Irish and English when they came here. My daddy was born in the US, yet he had a brogue and would use odd phrases of his daddy's, but did not learn to speak Irish. I speak with the accent of a Montanan, where I was born and raised, and although I sing Irish songs, I am NOT going to fake a brogue! I have great appreciation for "pure drop" tradition, but I think it is just as important for Irish descendents of immigrants to make their own tradition in the part of the world where they land, rather than to imitate what is already alive and thriving in Ireland.
My two cent opinion.
Alice Flynn
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by aliceflynn
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
I both agree and disagree, Alice. I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with what conclusion it seems to me you come to with those statements.
First, I don't intend to imitate. All players change the tradition for good or ill or whatever simply by playing the music. Imitating is what you do when you learn a tune exactly as your favorite players do it, down to the ornaments. That can be useful, and I've done it as a study, but I'm aware that that is imitation and not playing, nor is it following the tradition--it directly contradicts the tradition, as a matter of fact. In the act of the playing, you make choices. I see what you mean about having to start your own tradition (by which, in my own lexicon, I am taking that you mean forming your own music and philosophy of music), but I don't believe in freely changing things without understanding what you're changing and why. It's great to have passion when playing a tune, but let's face it, if it's not in tune, who wants to listen to it? Not me. Take that a step further. If it's not true to the Irish tradition, is it then Irish music? If it's not Irish music, then you're not an Irish player. At that point, I start losing interest, because I'm not interested in starting my own tradition. I'm not interested in making a form of music of my own yet. I want to understand the Irish tradition, speak that language, to know what I'm doing within those confines before widening out and finding my own voice, just like you must learn the alphabet before you can write The Great American Novel..
And so I think it's important to study, to work, to obsess a bit. Because this is NOT my natural background (fer catssake, I'm Chinese American, or is that Asian American these days, I forget?). I can cause what I would consider harm to the tradition by representing myself as an Irish player and not playing Irish music.
An aside: no offense to anyone, I hope, but I think it's offensive when people affect an Irish accent, or put on an act. As an American, it smacks of vaudeville minstrel theatre. Most Irish people I've talked to about it think it's just stupid.
Anyway, I don't believe that that all means I can take liberties with the Irish playing before I know what I'm doing. We're talking about a similar subject on another thread, actually.
Zina
# Posted on September 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Well, I am not talking about consciously trying to change Irish music, I am talking about the folk process that is alive - and I am also a stickler for listening to authentic players and singers and finding the oldest sources to learn from (and obsess about). Zina, I don't think we are much in disagreement. The change to a new style is a gradual process that happens over generations, even in Ireland, as anywhere else. I think today, what challenges trad music, is that technology and travel allow people to be less isolated, and be more eclectic in what they learn. Also, music has become a huge world wide entertainment industry. Those are pressures that influence how people play or sing the music. Many recordings become popular that are not done in the traditional style - for example, played way too fast, and singing - forgedaboudit - sean n
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by aliceflynn
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Hey, Jeff, relax!
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by glauber
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating abandoning - or even radically changing - the Tradition (whatever that means...). I saw this more as a way to vent about people who run their sessions so strictly that it's not fun anymore. Ultimately, folks will gravitate to the sessions that they enjoy the most - conservatives to the strict ones, and wild-eyed radicals to the ones with electric fiddles and synthesizers
(I actually once saw an old-timer use a programmable keyboard and drum machine set up to play tunes so he could step dance on stage! This was up in Rhinebeck, NY, a major Northeastern session area).
)
Speaking only for myself - I prefer a bit of experimentation, although I agree that you have to know the rules before you can make any intelligent effort to bend them. I just don't want to be the curator of a museum, so I want a living, evolving tradition and lively, enjoyable sessions. If I can't find one, I'll get a bunch of hooligans together and start my own! (Just watch me!
Jeff
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
If Jeff gets much more relaxed, we'll never hear from him again, I think he'd be permanently asleep. *snicker*
I also think that we don't disagree in the broader sense, Alice. The trouble with having a virtual session is that we can't make the subtle distinctions we could make in conversation in person -- a wave of a hand here, a shrug there -- at a live session. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that somebody like Jeff or Will or me or you would be able to get together regularly or even once or twice for a session, so a virtual session is also a wonderful thing.
I think the trouble is mainly that people, speaking in general terms, tend to go to extremes. There's such a thing as being too relaxed about what goes on at a session. Then the hotshots take over, or the beginners do, or whatever -- SOME body isn't going to have much fun and eventually loses interest. There's also such a thing as being too strict about a session, which is supposed to be about good crack anyway, and then the hotshots take over, or the beginners do, or whatever...I'm sure you get my drift.
It's just that, in our area at least, it seems like the "relax" portion of the population seems to be in the majority, and it makes me crazy when things like people being bored by songs at sessions happen. (No, really, some guy at a pub session really told me once that he thought the singers should go away, because it interrupted the music! I really didn't even know what to say, I'm sure I looked like a fish in my astonishment.) That kind of thing is Not Allowed at any session I'm running, and I'm going to have a few things to say about it in any session I'm taking part of.
Same with over-strictness.
Mainly, I think, the trouble comes in when people have different definitions of what is socially acceptable, speaking in the minute sense rather than the large one. Americans have different mores from Irish. (I'm sure all the Irish portion of our membership thinks this discussion is a remarkable waste of time, but I promise them it isn't -- for me, at least.) Different factions of each group will have different mores from each other. And all those things tend to come out in sessions. So it's worth talking about to know what is acceptable and what isn't. I can't count how many stories I've heard of Americans making complete and utter fools of themselves in Irish sessions -- it would be nice to think that some talking now could mitigate that kind of thing.
On another note, it's funny you mentioned sean-n
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Don't want to give the wrong impression here -- Anne Marie wasn't saying that sean-n
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Hi all,
I'm not sure if I started some of this yesterday by saying that people need to be more laid back and relax.....oooopps
well,yes, I was fortunate to spend my life immersed in Irish music, of all genres and with many styles and players, but my real point (poorly worded) was this....no matter who you are, you bring something unique to the music, and you will never repeat the same tune with the exact same phrasing and emotion twice. There is a living soul to Irish music being played throughout the World and there will always be good and then great exponents of that, but passion counts for more than style.
I also understand the need for somebody to shepherd a session in a particular direction, but it still needs to be fun. Unless you are gifted enough to make music your primary income, then this is what we do to relax. While it is true that the hotshots can take anything over, a good session boss needs to be the one calling the shots...and there should always, always be room for a new player to get a platform for their style. Don't mistake being relaxed for being sloppy....a good tune, played with soul, will always be tight, no matter the stylke, speed or phrasing. If you can close your eyes and the tune can carry you...then it's working!
So, please, if you are new to the style, then play first and study later. I would hate to think that anybody is afraid of learning the music for fear of not being a good stylist.
I am probably one of the worst players to use this site! I have a morbid fear of playing in front of others and I'm sure that everyone would be horrified with my interpretation of the tunes that I play....but there my tunes, I learned them, I love them ....and most important to me...my son loves them. He will grow up in the same tradition and I hope that he will bring his beauty and uniqueness to the music. After all, the living part is still more important than the tradition part.
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Mcbear365
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Well, yeah, it was your post that started the subject! Mainly, y'see, I feel that the crack is just as important to a good session as the music, so seizing upon the fun subjects that everyone can shout about is much more fun than just posting tunes and saying, here, hope you like it. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, either.) So long as nobody's feelings get bruised or anything, it's fun.
Now, I have to say that I don't think you should play first and study later. I think you should do both at the same time!
I teach Irish stepdancing. (Although I don't have a TCRG myself -- I teach under a TCRG) And one thing I've been changing about how I teach recently is that I've stopped letting students learn things wrong for the sake of just dancing and having fun and then going back and correcting it. I've found that when you do this, it means that the student has to basically relearn a step all over again while trying to correct a form problem, and it's actually better to take more time while learning to incorporate things like form than it is to take less time and let them dance incorrectly, even though some students get impatient with form work. Among other things, that way they have a firm base to build upon as they learn more difficult steps. I don't teach the champions. I teach dancers the basic moves and beginning and intermediate steps. I teach them what they need to know to work on being champions. And that's the basic work of good form and getting it inherent into themselves, an automatic part of their dancing. When you know you do something well and correctly, you have so much more fun.
I am bringing the same thing to the table to my music now. I think it's important to learn it as correctly as you can, even if ten years from now, you realize that what you learned then isn't what's correct for you now. What is correct, exactly? Well, that's an entirely different and new subject to yell about!
And -- not to put too fine a point on it -- I think the living part IS part of the tradition part, and vice-versa. I don't think they can be separated out from each other neatly. I learned Belles of Tipperary from my teacher Shannon. No matter how often I play it or change it or tweak the setting, I'll have that history to it. Through her, that tune passes to me with a great deal more history than that -- that most of my friends know the tune as The New Policeman, for instance, adds even more crack surrounding the tune for me, for all the conversations we've had about the tune titles. Every time I play it differently, I'm reminded of how I learned it, and what variations Shannon used, and the ones I've heard from friends. I love that the tune is ever new, yet still firmly based out of the tradition it sprang from, with all the the non-music crack around it that makes up a heavy part of that tradition.
And I think it's important to know that making your own music is great, and good, and fun. It's also important to know when what you're playing is not particularly Irish, because if what you want is to play Irish music, then you damned well better know what that means. Otherwise you're only playing Irish melodies, not Irish music. There's nothing wrong with that. I know lots of people whose music I enjoy very much who do exactly that. But I respect them much more when they know what they choose to do, what bits are Irish and what bits are not. So I don't really agree that passion counts for more than style when it comes to playing Irish music. (Music, yes, music in general, your own personal music, etc.. Irish traditional music, no.) Those of us who already speak the musical language of Irish trad music as our first language have it much easier than those of us who have to do that artificially! You can jump straight to passion. Me, I have to learn how to spell "CAT" and "SPOT" first! I so never want to be somebody that everyone else says "she's a terrible player, of course, but she really loves the music, and she tries so hard" about!
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
The people who thought singing was a boring interruption of the music never heard my friend Willow!
C'mon, Zina, fly out to NJ for the day and run a session with me!
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Hey Zina,
thanks for the reply...it made me think a lot about the whole subject. Please don't feel that I'm being flippant when I talk about the fun, or the living parts of Irish music and, even though I don't consider myself a good player, I do consider what I play to be Irish music, not just half baked Irish melodies.
Please let me relay this story...
When I bought my mandolin, I had absolutely no musical experience. I couldn't play a note. I called several teachers and was met with a stony wall of sarcastic silence that I was 33 years of age, trying to learn to play. Had I given up at that stage, I might have never learned some of the beautiful tunes that I can now play with ease. So now, several years later, I can carry some tunes well, some tunes really well. But I still meet and listen to greater players on a daily basis. Now, I taught myself everything I know, from tuning, to best string sets (for my style) to reading music and I am very proud of that.
I could, however,have allowed the moral high ground to go to those who were more talented than I am, but didn't want to let me even try to reach a decent level.
Now I see things this way.... Irish music is a powerful emotive force that can turn heads when it's played well. I work real hard at playing well and if I come through all of this being able to carry one tune that turns one head, I will have achieved something special. If all people can say of me is that I was a terrible player, then they better be able to play a lot better!!
Better to try and fall down than not to try at all, or as a Legionnaire once said....those who do not challenge themselves should not complain about the mediocrity of their lives.
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Mcbear365
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Oh, DEAR...did I sound like I was being pointed at you? I hope not! I wasn't in any way trying to make personal accusations about you or your playing or anything like that, I really wasn't. I like to flap my mouth around a lot on interesting subjects and to read other's viewpoints, but not if I've offended -- so I totally apologize if that's the case here.
My teachesr and friends, Shannon and Matt Heaton, are moving to Boston. I'm sure I'll be visiting them at some point or other -- we'll have to meet up when I do!
I agree with you that one should never limit a student, especially for things like age. MyTCRGr, Ariel Bennett, has this as a pet peeve. There are a lot of Irish stepdancing schools that won't teach adults simply because they can't compete at World's, and because they think adults dancing is silly or useless, or some such. This makes Ariel's blood boil. To our school, all dancers are dancers, regardless of their age or sex or whatever, and it's a tenet of the school that we treat them all the same -- as dancers. I didn't really start playing Irish fiddle until a few years ago, myself, and really working at it last year.
And I'm the last person to say that you have to be off a certain ancestry to learn Irish music! (Being of Chinese descent, myself.)
Jeff, no way! I'd love to come out there and play at your session, but I'd never run the thing unless I'd been there for a while!
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Hey Zina,
Please.....absolutely no offense was taken
You have very interesting points, are very knowledgeable on the whole subject and made me appreciate that perhaps I take the whole thing a little too much for granted. I agree entirely that there should be no barrier for any students in any disciplines.
Enjoy it...that's the key!!!
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Mcbear365
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Oh, whew. I just wanted to make sure. You never know with computers.
I'm not so sure there's such a thing as being very knowledgeable about this stuff, if you know what I mean. The more I find out, the less I discover that I know about it. But I have to say that I envy you your Irishness! Heh.
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
I think every non-Irish person with a serious interest in playing Irish music has thoughts on this. I have often thought, the only way I can play like an Irishman (say what you will, but I believe it is more than simply being born and raised in the tradition) is to assume an Irish accent, become a Roman Catholic, learn to think like an Irishman etc. - basically, re-invent myself as an Irishman. But the fact is, I am a Jew, born and raised in England, and if I try to deny my Jewishness and my Englishness, I am immediately being untrue to myself. I think this would defeat the object of playing music, full stop, as good music should be a form of genuine
expression.
I try to respect the Irish musical tradition, and I love it for what it is, but there is a point where my own individuality cuts through, and I'm damned if I'm going to stop it.
# Posted on September 8th 2001 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Hello, David. I agree. I was thinking this morning about how this is so similar to being an artist or writer. My degree is in fine art, and as a painter, I searched to discover who I am, connecting to the history of my family and where I was raised, what my deepest emotions were - my work would naturally flow from that, expressing what is unique to me, in a way no one else could. This is true in all the arts, from music, to visual arts, to literature and acting. Each person who reaches the depths of their being and to know the self, reflects that in what they do and what they create. (Shallow people produce shallow work, in other words.) As a singer, I was taught to not imitate other singers' voices, but to learn the technique of using my own voice to its greatest natural potential, in range, tone, and flexibility. I learned repertoire from Italian arias, that are like training an athlete, to ballads and Broadway. That foundation, just like learning the skills of how to paint, gave me the starting point to express myself. But, in order to do that, I had to be in touch with who I am, as well as connecting to the genres of music that resonate with my own love (obsessions) and sensibilities. It was a natural to sing folk music from Ireland, since I grew up listening to it, but I sing it after making it my own. I think this relates to the saying that there is a difference between playing notes and making music. It takes, time, also to get to that point. Life's pain seems to hone the edge, more than the pleasures. When I was in my 20's, alot of people close to me died. I was a serious person for a long time. I'll be 50 in December, and my 20's seem just like yesterday, yet a lifetime away.
Now I am finding that since I've picked up the whistle again, it is the slow airs that I learned as songs that easily come to me, just like I am singing them. The fast dance music just isn't as personal for me. I guess it's that serious side of my nature.
Alice
# Posted on September 8th 2001 by aliceflynn
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
D'you know, Alice, I was just thinking about that same thing driving home from our show today. (One of our students got married today, so we danced at the reception.) Why is it that singers, when they learn within the tradition, learn the all important notion that you have to make the song yours, personalize it, almost immediately, while if you learn, say, fiddle, you don't find that out unless you're lucky enough to get yourself under some very good teachers? Is it because there's so many technical things to learn first, fingering, bowing, articulation, tone, phrasing...? (Aagh, I get overwhelmed just thinking about it all.) It's one of the first things a singer learns, insofar as I can tell from talking to singers, that you have to internalize the song, and spit it back out so that it comes from your own experience.
On the other hand, I was told recently about a singer who took a pop/rock song from the seventies and switched out a place name to a county in Ireland, and called that personalizing the song. No, really.
For me, the problem comes in finding the balance. Yes, you have to be able to play technically well enough to be on tune, on time, etc. Yes, you have to play so that your individual style comes through (otherwise, in my mind anyway, you've stepped out of the tradition). But you also have to cultivate a pretty firm grip on what is and isn't acceptable in terms of Irish music, or when you choose to take it out of that arena either partially or entirely.
When does it stop being Irish? When is it still Irish? Is it ALL acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you only decide when you hear it? If somebody like Eileen Ivers does it, is it automatically still Irish? And what about -- Naomi? (Heh. Sorry. Only a joke somebody who grew up with The Electric Company would get.)
Zina
# Posted on September 8th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Yes,Zina,that's a good point about voice/instrument. Any instrument is at one remove from the human voice and because of the physical aspects of playing it's easy to forget the things that come naturally to a singer like phrasing and so on. You can easily play a line in such a way that,if you were to sing it,would sound completely unnatural.
Intonation is another can of worms-because of the almost global curse of 'equal' temperament (sorry all you pianos&accordions out there) some regional styles are sometimes thought to play 'too' sharp and singers and players with just intonation will clash with western piano harmonies.There again, I would rather hear some players play one tune with so-called imperfect tuning than a few others play a whole set of tunes perfectly but without the spirit which makes it live.
# Posted on September 8th 2001 by biggus dave
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Interesting to read your angst about not being from Ireland, nor am I, living in the North East of Scotland. I too have an Irish granny and I play the Scottish music from around my area as well as Irish music. We, as people who love this music, should rememeber that the kids around you, and me, and in Ireland, are listening to Britney Spears. For God's sake don't worry about whether you feel 'authentic' enough. The world domination of trivial music should be enough for us all to keep plugging away at our chosen love, and as far as I'm concerned, I want as many people as possible to try to keep this exceptional fiddle tradition going. In a funny sort of way I suppose we'd all like to trace our heritage roots back to Sligo, but as long as our cultural roots are doing the job, the music will survive.
# Posted on September 8th 2001 by Kevvyf
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Zina, just a few comments, on making a tune your own. It already is!!! If you play it, it already sounds different than any other fiddler. If you give life to the tune, then it is yours. So the key to making a tune yours, IMO, is to give life to the tune. You can already do that. It might take a few years of fiddling before you like the way the tune sounds under your bow. If you like the way the tune sounds when you play it, even if it sounds different than you wanted it to sound, then the tune is yours.
Not to discourage you from studying the music. Your drive to do that is a part of you, and will be a part of your music. Study the music, and try to understand what it is that gives life to a tune when you play it. That is you, showing up in your music.
Have to agree with Doug Greenberg about the first 10 years of life. But, there is also the first 3 years of fiddling! That is equally important.
At least in my experience, it was. Let me explain. For the last year, I have put in a lot of time to strengthen my timing, to get an even flow of notes, and a steady rhythm. It is working, but... I listened to a little tape that I made today (with a ghetto blaster), and guess what? My rhythm is distinctly French Canadian. It is the first time that I have listened to a recording of my fiddling in a year, and although my timing has improved, I sound more French Canadian than I ever did.
My first 3 years of fiddling were spent mainly with a fiddler named Maurice. Even though we hardly see each other anymore, I continue to come closer to the style of his music. All this, in spite of the fact that I have spent the last years studying Cape Breton fiddling, and the last few months looking at Irish fiddling. (And I thought that there was a big Irish influence in my music?)
cheers
Scott
# Posted on September 9th 2001 by scottythefiddler
About music.
I play the classical flute, or whatever you call. (Excuse me because I
# Posted on September 13th 2001 by Gadrielei
Re: On the Importance of Being Laid Back
Yes here is the thread i was looking for
So we each play a tune in our own way. How does soemone get to sound that really "Irish" swingy way. I keep trying but never get there. Is it because when i first started out i was trying to sound like Sean keane / Tommy peoples (as they were in 1970s). What Im picking up here is that should just get on and play and enjoy it (which is what I want) rather than beat myself up for not being able to sound like i grew up in sligo, clare or wherever.
however i do know there are musicians in the USA who grew up there who do sound really Irish (How did they do it?)
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by donnchad