I am in the process of getting enough "chops" on the banjo to the point where I can take it to loud sessions, when my mandolin can't cut it. So, yes, my main instrument is the mandolin and so I am familiar with GDAE tuning, picking as it applied to mandolin, and also have a reasonable method of learning tunes by ear and otherwise. I already have a tenor banjo but I'm looking for ideas of how to come up to speed on it. For example - will i gain much from instructional books/cd/dvd? I really don't know what they cover in detail but I don't want basic training as if I haven't played before and I don't want a bunch of tunes either. What I would benefit from is technique pointers and ideas that are unique to the banjo, assuming that I have a musical background in general and fretted instruments in 5th's in particular.
Having access to a one-on-one experienced player/teacher would be great but I don't know of any around me, here in New Jersey, USA.
I wonder if some of you can recommend something, please.
Classes starting in Irish Arts Center, 553 West 51st St. (Between 10th and 11th Avenues) in January. The teacher is a great banjo player from Tipperary now living in New York, Pio Ryan.
Avi, I've been making this transition from mandolin (and fiddle) to banjo myself over the last year and a half or so. I'm just getting to the point where I can justify bringing the banjo to a session, but maybe you can learn something from my experience. Here's what jumps out at me:
1. The feel of these two instruments is similar but different. The single strings on banjo take a smaller picking motion than mandolin, more similar to flatpicking guitar. Speed comes with economy of motion, and it takes time and woodshedding to find just the right amount of wrist action to get a good lope going on banjo.
2. I progressed much faster when I quit working on throwing triplets into tunes and just played the tunes, concentrating on fluency, rhythm, lift, and a nice relaxed, clear tone. I kept working on triplets, on the side, and now I've come round to adding them back into the tunes without upsetting my timing (which has way more lift on banjo than it did last year). And now I know I can play the tunes at session speeds, with life and danceability, even if the triplets go AWOL on me. I like Pete's (Reverend) notion that the triplets shouldn't be any louder than the rest of the notes around them--aiming for that effortless sound.
3. Playing with other people and recordings really helped me to relax and stay relaxed as I got up to speed. I progressed most quickly when I played banjo every day for an hour or so, *and* played it with others once or twice a week.
4. I started out using fiddle fingering because after nearly 30 years of playing these tunes on fiddle, it just felt right. But some tunes naturally came easier using guitar fingering (one finger per fret). I've played guitar longer than fiddle, so I pretty much just let my left hand do whatever feels right at the moment for a given tune or phrase. Not getting hung up on one approach or the other has made it easy to pick up new tunes. (I also play a short-scale tenor.)
5. I prefer a lighter touch to tenor banjo (after years of playing bluegrass on a 5 string gatlin gun), so I use a very light pick: 0.50 mm gauge. Not much of the tip sticks out from my thumb and index, so I still get plenty of punch and volume (even on an open back banjo) when I want it, but banjo too easily dominates a session anyway. The lighter pick gives me a nice bell tone and less tension picking through the strings.
Just keep plugging away, and dive into those lessons at the Irish arts center. It'll all come together.
We should get together and Banjo s (yes I am using that as verb) sometime as I recently traded my Mandolin for a Tenor Banjo as I played a couple and thought it would be a better instrument for me. I was right, but I still spend a lot of time on Flute which I am pretty good at. The style I can play as Banjo is more triplet stuff rather than grace notes which I had trouble doing on Mandolin and my experience on Fiddle which is very limited. I just come from a Classical background and have a hard time learning from recordings (but not in person) and I can't get the tunes under my fingers on Banjo as the instrument has not really fused with my mind (if you know what I mean) on Flute I can look at a tune a couple times after hearing it a lot and memorize it really quickly it takes so much work on Banjo but I am sure the more I play the better I will get. I play a long Scale with Mandolin Fingerings so I have to stretch a bit for the High B. If you want a loud session to bring that Banjo to I know of just the right one and lucky for you the only Decmeber one is tomorrow, yes I am talking about the IAANJ session if you haven't figured it out by now plus even so last time we didn't have any Mandos either just a bunch of Fiddlers (you know it was about half Fiddlers out of 20 people 10 were Fiddlers).
Will - thanks for sharing your experiences. I am really happy to see that I'm already following the same basic path and drawing some of the same conclusions. In fact I believe that we even have the same banjo - the GoldTone IT-250 short-scale open back. It's nice, isn't it. I use a 0.73 nylon pick but trying some 0.6 ones as well and exposing less and less pick as I experiment. I agree with your idea of not insisting on triplets right away. I want to get a nice even and effortless groove. I listen to a bunch of the good players and spend time trying to figure out fingering that work - no surprise eh? My point of departure for the banjo is cello/guitar fingering but I find that I make allowances. There are problems that require wide rotations and also fast shifts and that's an area that I think an experienced player can show me some things. I am definitely going to check out the lessons at the Irish Arts Center. I just noticed that Linda Hickman teaches there too. I play in sessions with her occasionally. As far as playing with other people - I need to do that. I may just start bringing it to the session and picking it up occasionally for tunes that I know best until it 'comes together' as you said
Frankly I'm reaching a point of disliking my mandolin playing at the loud sessions since I feel like I'm "shouting" the entire time, like Cajun singers used to do before the age of amplification. Maybe it's time to leave the mandolin to smaller settings and bring up the banjo and OM for melody and backup.
Thanks for the encouraging words. It's exciting to be learning - always!
Avi
p.s - Of course...I am really tempted to pick up one of the new generation National Resophonic mandolins and bring *that* to the session some day.....
unseen122 - I already have a loud session that I like - the one at St. James' in Maplewood where it's loud and the acoustics suck - literally - the sound out of the air. I like the music though and the people who play there so that's where I go. We used to have a great quiet session in Jersey City but the pub owners decided they wanted the space for sports viewers (the nerve!) so that's off. I do know about the IAANJ sessions, and friendly with Iris too. I don't go there because of a schedule conflict but I'm sure we'll meet in one of the area sessions one of these days
Do what Will says and you can't go wrong. A teacher is an excellent idea mostly because the tenor banjo is a totally different animal from a mandolin and requires a different mindset. Your teacher can guide you through the cogitive dissonance that you will have to endure for six months or so.
I have experimented with hundreds of picks and I still come back to the .60 Dunlop (the light gray one) or occasionally an ultex pick in the same thickness. It just goes with the style. I use a 2mm pick on my mandolins in contrast.
Mike -yes, these are the picks I use too. They feel and sound good to me. On the mandolin use different size picks (all thicker than these) depending on the sound I need.
Thanks for the encouragement. It's so nice to be part of a community
Yep Avi, the Gold Tone IT-250. Properly set up, it's a great little banjo. I haul mine to the session even when I know it'll get played only one-third of the time, if that. It adds sparkle to the mix, and I appreciate the chance to pick tunes I'd be bowing otherwise.
Mandolin does beg for a heavier pick, although 1.5 mm is about the thickest I've ever used.
I like the .60 Dunlops for banjo too, but the Clayton .50 gives me just a tad more flex without the slappy tone of a thin pick.
Mike, it's a genuine relief to hear you confirm that I'm not off barking at snipes. I had to ignore a lot of well intentioned advice when starting on this path to enlightened banjo.
I use a 1mm pick I usually prefer thicker picks. Avi, I was plaing on stopping by some of those other sessions some time but the IAANJ is the only one I can commit to, because it is on a Friday. Sunday afternoon is not a good time for me but Friday night is fine.
Will, I have a very basic tenor banjo which is OK but I'd like to invest in something better and, preferably, short scale. I've been thinking about the Gold Tone models and even tried one out a couple of years back. I was recovering with my arm injury at the time and didn't wish to commit myself but I thought is was a nice instrument to play.
They seem to be very reasonably priced too and would probably suit me well, as like yourself, I'll probably only playing it for part of the time. I'm very much aware of the excellent reputation of makers such as David Boyle and Tom Cussen but I wonder if the extra cost is justified(for the likes of me) in view of the fact that a) I don't play professionally and b) the banjo will probably never be even my main session instrument!
Having said that, I know that I will want to play a better instrument esp a short scale banjo more often than I'm doing at present.
Like yourself, I prefer to use a lighter pick for tenor banjo than mandolin.
I think its much easier to play banjo then mando. I play alot of triplets in my banjo playing and not that many in my mando.
Ive recently found when i play the mando all you hear is the ringing of the strings...Its cause i play with a fiddle and pipes and the mando cant cut through those , only the rattling strings...its p*ssing me off. I wouldn't add a banjo in that mix, it doesnt sound as well as the bouzouki.
I have a Ludwig Capitol I want to sell - anyone interested?
I just made a similar transition from mandolin to Irish bouzouki. Same tuning, looks like the same fret spacing. It was hard adjusting to the extra stretch, and having to use different fingers to hit the same notes. Seemed almost insurmountable at first, but I got there.
Basically, I just practiced alot of tunes on the bouzouki really really slowly, at a pace where I could do them without any excess tension in my hand/wrist/fingers at all. Then I took it to a session a couple of weeks later, and found to my surprise that I could play it at speed.
Then I took it busking at the local mall a couple of times. That's always a great way to get used to a new instrument I find. Then I went to another session, and got scalded for playing too quickly.
improziv, can't give you numbers but I was told by a luthier that it's the exact same scale as a a full size steel string guitar (i.e, distance between fretts).
I have a 22" scale (I think--it's at home) Deering Sierra tenor I bought several years ago from a great music store in Toronto. I bought it used, sight unseen, over the Internet, and it's a great banjo with a maple neck, resonator, and body. The tone ring is what really makes a banjo sound the way it does, and the Deering has a cast bronze ring that must weigh 20 lbs. It's ridiculously heavy. It's a newer instrument, and it has no issues with tuning like the old one did.
The scale of the Deering is very tolerable for me. I had a great vintage Vega banjo, but the scale was really too short for my tastes. It was hard to buy strings for, and I just didn't care for the plunky, loose sound. The Deering doesn't have that vintage cachet, but it's a shotgun, loud, tight, and very easy to play. I've found that if you play a tune with a strong groove and dynamics, you can really shape and drive the tune in a way that I couldn't with the mandolin, at least in a session. If you mic a mandolin, then you can play Irish tunes easily, but it really does disappear behind the usual phalanx of fiddles, flutes, and guitars when played in a strictly acoustic setting.
My octave mandolin has the same basic scale, and that makes it quite easy to interchange the two in a session. However, the banjo requires a very light, deft touch, whereas the OM requires much more physicality. The picks are also proportional to the strength required to play these two. I use the above-mentioned picks on banjo, alternating between a 0.60 and a 0.50, but I'm using a Clayton 0.80 on the OM.
I still play Celtic and other tunes on the mandolin. There's no substitute for that sweet sound. Just like all the women I've ever known and been close to, I love 'em all.
From mandolin to tenor banjo
From mandolin to tenor banjo
I am in the process of getting enough "chops" on the banjo to the point where I can take it to loud sessions, when my mandolin can't cut it. So, yes, my main instrument is the mandolin and so I am familiar with GDAE tuning, picking as it applied to mandolin, and also have a reasonable method of learning tunes by ear and otherwise. I already have a tenor banjo but I'm looking for ideas of how to come up to speed on it. For example - will i gain much from instructional books/cd/dvd? I really don't know what they cover in detail but I don't want basic training as if I haven't played before and I don't want a bunch of tunes either. What I would benefit from is technique pointers and ideas that are unique to the banjo, assuming that I have a musical background in general and fretted instruments in 5th's in particular.
Having access to a one-on-one experienced player/teacher would be great but I don't know of any around me, here in New Jersey, USA.
I wonder if some of you can recommend something, please.
Thanks,
Avi
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Hey Avi,
Classes starting in Irish Arts Center, 553 West 51st St. (Between 10th and 11th Avenues) in January. The teacher is a great banjo player from Tipperary now living in New York, Pio Ryan.
info@irishartscenter.org
Darren.
www.darrenmaloney.com
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by no39
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Darren - wow thanks! I didn't even know this existed. I'll certainly look into it.
Avi
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Avi, I've been making this transition from mandolin (and fiddle) to banjo myself over the last year and a half or so. I'm just getting to the point where I can justify bringing the banjo to a session, but maybe you can learn something from my experience. Here's what jumps out at me:
1. The feel of these two instruments is similar but different. The single strings on banjo take a smaller picking motion than mandolin, more similar to flatpicking guitar. Speed comes with economy of motion, and it takes time and woodshedding to find just the right amount of wrist action to get a good lope going on banjo.
2. I progressed much faster when I quit working on throwing triplets into tunes and just played the tunes, concentrating on fluency, rhythm, lift, and a nice relaxed, clear tone. I kept working on triplets, on the side, and now I've come round to adding them back into the tunes without upsetting my timing (which has way more lift on banjo than it did last year). And now I know I can play the tunes at session speeds, with life and danceability, even if the triplets go AWOL on me. I like Pete's (Reverend) notion that the triplets shouldn't be any louder than the rest of the notes around them--aiming for that effortless sound.
3. Playing with other people and recordings really helped me to relax and stay relaxed as I got up to speed. I progressed most quickly when I played banjo every day for an hour or so, *and* played it with others once or twice a week.
4. I started out using fiddle fingering because after nearly 30 years of playing these tunes on fiddle, it just felt right. But some tunes naturally came easier using guitar fingering (one finger per fret). I've played guitar longer than fiddle, so I pretty much just let my left hand do whatever feels right at the moment for a given tune or phrase. Not getting hung up on one approach or the other has made it easy to pick up new tunes. (I also play a short-scale tenor.)
5. I prefer a lighter touch to tenor banjo (after years of playing bluegrass on a 5 string gatlin gun), so I use a very light pick: 0.50 mm gauge. Not much of the tip sticks out from my thumb and index, so I still get plenty of punch and volume (even on an open back banjo) when I want it, but banjo too easily dominates a session anyway. The lighter pick gives me a nice bell tone and less tension picking through the strings.
Just keep plugging away, and dive into those lessons at the Irish arts center. It'll all come together.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
We should get together and Banjo s (yes I am using that as verb) sometime as I recently traded my Mandolin for a Tenor Banjo as I played a couple and thought it would be a better instrument for me. I was right, but I still spend a lot of time on Flute which I am pretty good at. The style I can play as Banjo is more triplet stuff rather than grace notes which I had trouble doing on Mandolin and my experience on Fiddle which is very limited. I just come from a Classical background and have a hard time learning from recordings (but not in person) and I can't get the tunes under my fingers on Banjo as the instrument has not really fused with my mind (if you know what I mean) on Flute I can look at a tune a couple times after hearing it a lot and memorize it really quickly it takes so much work on Banjo but I am sure the more I play the better I will get. I play a long Scale with Mandolin Fingerings so I have to stretch a bit for the High B. If you want a loud session to bring that Banjo to I know of just the right one and lucky for you the only Decmeber one is tomorrow, yes I am talking about the IAANJ session if you haven't figured it out by now plus even so last time we didn't have any Mandos either just a bunch of Fiddlers (you know it was about half Fiddlers out of 20 people 10 were Fiddlers).
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Will - thanks for sharing your experiences. I am really happy to see that I'm already following the same basic path and drawing some of the same conclusions. In fact I believe that we even have the same banjo - the GoldTone IT-250 short-scale open back. It's nice, isn't it. I use a 0.73 nylon pick but trying some 0.6 ones as well and exposing less and less pick as I experiment. I agree with your idea of not insisting on triplets right away. I want to get a nice even and effortless groove. I listen to a bunch of the good players and spend time trying to figure out fingering that work - no surprise eh? My point of departure for the banjo is cello/guitar fingering but I find that I make allowances. There are problems that require wide rotations and also fast shifts and that's an area that I think an experienced player can show me some things. I am definitely going to check out the lessons at the Irish Arts Center. I just noticed that Linda Hickman teaches there too. I play in sessions with her occasionally. As far as playing with other people - I need to do that. I may just start bringing it to the session and picking it up occasionally for tunes that I know best until it 'comes together' as you said
some day.....
Frankly I'm reaching a point of disliking my mandolin playing at the loud sessions since I feel like I'm "shouting" the entire time, like Cajun singers used to do before the age of amplification. Maybe it's time to leave the mandolin to smaller settings and bring up the banjo and OM for melody and backup.
Thanks for the encouraging words. It's exciting to be learning - always!
Avi
p.s - Of course...I am really tempted to pick up one of the new generation National Resophonic mandolins and bring *that* to the session
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
unseen122 - I already have a loud session that I like - the one at St. James' in Maplewood where it's loud and the acoustics suck - literally - the sound out of the air. I like the music though and the people who play there so that's where I go. We used to have a great quiet session in Jersey City but the pub owners decided they wanted the space for sports viewers (the nerve!) so that's off. I do know about the IAANJ sessions, and friendly with Iris too. I don't go there because of a schedule conflict but I'm sure we'll meet in one of the area sessions one of these days
Avi
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Avi,
Do what Will says and you can't go wrong. A teacher is an excellent idea mostly because the tenor banjo is a totally different animal from a mandolin and requires a different mindset. Your teacher can guide you through the cogitive dissonance that you will have to endure for six months or so.
I have experimented with hundreds of picks and I still come back to the .60 Dunlop (the light gray one) or occasionally an ultex pick in the same thickness. It just goes with the style. I use a 2mm pick on my mandolins in contrast.
Good luck with your banjo!
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/dec05/triplets.html
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Mike -yes, these are the picks I use too. They feel and sound good to me. On the mandolin use different size picks (all thicker than these) depending on the sound I need.
Thanks for the encouragement. It's so nice to be part of a community
Avi
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Yep Avi, the Gold Tone IT-250. Properly set up, it's a great little banjo. I haul mine to the session even when I know it'll get played only one-third of the time, if that. It adds sparkle to the mix, and I appreciate the chance to pick tunes I'd be bowing otherwise.
Mandolin does beg for a heavier pick, although 1.5 mm is about the thickest I've ever used.
I like the .60 Dunlops for banjo too, but the Clayton .50 gives me just a tad more flex without the slappy tone of a thin pick.
Mike, it's a genuine relief to hear you confirm that I'm not off barking at snipes. I had to ignore a lot of well intentioned advice when starting on this path to enlightened banjo.
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
I use a 1mm pick I usually prefer thicker picks. Avi, I was plaing on stopping by some of those other sessions some time but the IAANJ is the only one I can commit to, because it is on a Friday. Sunday afternoon is not a good time for me but Friday night is fine.
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Will, I have a very basic tenor banjo which is OK but I'd like to invest in something better and, preferably, short scale. I've been thinking about the Gold Tone models and even tried one out a couple of years back. I was recovering with my arm injury at the time and didn't wish to commit myself but I thought is was a nice instrument to play.
They seem to be very reasonably priced too and would probably suit me well, as like yourself, I'll probably only playing it for part of the time. I'm very much aware of the excellent reputation of makers such as David Boyle and Tom Cussen but I wonder if the extra cost is justified(for the likes of me) in view of the fact that a) I don't play professionally and b) the banjo will probably never be even my main session instrument!
Having said that, I know that I will want to play a better instrument esp a short scale banjo more often than I'm doing at present.
Like yourself, I prefer to use a lighter pick for tenor banjo than mandolin.
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by John J.
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
I think its much easier to play banjo then mando. I play alot of triplets in my banjo playing and not that many in my mando.
Ive recently found when i play the mando all you hear is the ringing of the strings...Its cause i play with a fiddle and pipes and the mando cant cut through those , only the rattling strings...its p*ssing me off. I wouldn't add a banjo in that mix, it doesnt sound as well as the bouzouki.
I have a Ludwig Capitol I want to sell - anyone interested?
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
I just made a similar transition from mandolin to Irish bouzouki. Same tuning, looks like the same fret spacing. It was hard adjusting to the extra stretch, and having to use different fingers to hit the same notes. Seemed almost insurmountable at first, but I got there.
Basically, I just practiced alot of tunes on the bouzouki really really slowly, at a pace where I could do them without any excess tension in my hand/wrist/fingers at all. Then I took it to a session a couple of weeks later, and found to my surprise that I could play it at speed.
Then I took it busking at the local mall a couple of times. That's always a great way to get used to a new instrument I find. Then I went to another session, and got scalded for playing too quickly.
# Posted on December 17th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
Chris - out of curiosity, what's the scale length on your bouzouki? I'm doing the same with a 22.5" OM and getting used to the stretch.
Sounds like you are happy with your progress. That's great!
Avi
# Posted on December 17th 2005 by improziv
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
improziv, can't give you numbers but I was told by a luthier that it's the exact same scale as a a full size steel string guitar (i.e, distance between fretts).
# Posted on December 18th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: From mandolin to tenor banjo
I have a 22" scale (I think--it's at home) Deering Sierra tenor I bought several years ago from a great music store in Toronto. I bought it used, sight unseen, over the Internet, and it's a great banjo with a maple neck, resonator, and body. The tone ring is what really makes a banjo sound the way it does, and the Deering has a cast bronze ring that must weigh 20 lbs. It's ridiculously heavy. It's a newer instrument, and it has no issues with tuning like the old one did.
The scale of the Deering is very tolerable for me. I had a great vintage Vega banjo, but the scale was really too short for my tastes. It was hard to buy strings for, and I just didn't care for the plunky, loose sound. The Deering doesn't have that vintage cachet, but it's a shotgun, loud, tight, and very easy to play. I've found that if you play a tune with a strong groove and dynamics, you can really shape and drive the tune in a way that I couldn't with the mandolin, at least in a session. If you mic a mandolin, then you can play Irish tunes easily, but it really does disappear behind the usual phalanx of fiddles, flutes, and guitars when played in a strictly acoustic setting.
My octave mandolin has the same basic scale, and that makes it quite easy to interchange the two in a session. However, the banjo requires a very light, deft touch, whereas the OM requires much more physicality. The picks are also proportional to the strength required to play these two. I use the above-mentioned picks on banjo, alternating between a 0.60 and a 0.50, but I'm using a Clayton 0.80 on the OM.
I still play Celtic and other tunes on the mandolin. There's no substitute for that sweet sound. Just like all the women I've ever known and been close to, I love 'em all.
# Posted on December 19th 2005 by Audeamus