Hi all,
Ordering a new Abnett and have been thinking about these two combinations. I currently have a spruce/rosewood 8 stringer and it's opening up very well and has a very nice tone now.
I will be ordering a 10 stringer with an extra high course. Peter advised me that the Cedar top might not be the best thing to do due to the added stress of an extra pair but said it should be ok. But I can't decide on the combination I want.
What I know so far;
-Cedar has a warmer and more mellow tone than Spruce
-Spruce opens up much more over time and eventually becomes as mellow.(is that bit true?)
What I don't know;
-The differance between Rosewood and Walnut
-Everything else
I want to be loud enough to be heard playing tunes in a session yet I want a mellow sound. Could I get some advice?
What's your favourite combination and why?
Yep, walnut is an excellent tonewood. My impression, so far, is that it tends to support a warm tone. The two walnut guitars I’m most familiar with both seem to be somewhere between rosewood and mahogany in voice characteristics.
Cedar can make a good soundboard, if the luthier knows how to work with it, but I’m not sure I would describe it as warm and mellow, compared to spruce. Either wood can vary a lot and can be manipulated and tuned by a good luthier. I have a Lowden guitar with a cedar top and it has some very complex tonal characteristics. It can do warm, dark and mellow and it can also do bright and crisp. It’s also a loud’un.
I'd agree with you. While the different woods certainly have their own tones the tone of an instrument is far more in the hands of the luthier than in the materials. You can make crap out of anything and something decent out of just about anything from cardboard to carbon fiber.
Talk about the tone of various woods is really only appropriate when discussing instruments that are otherwise identical, and it really isn't appropriate to build instruments of differing materials indentically.
The problem is that luthiers get set in their ways and treat new materials like the ones they are used to. You have to clear your mind and examine the actual properties of what you're working with and cater to that. It's engineering.
For instance, the admontion about the added stress. Well, like, take that into account and build the top to take the added stress? It's a plan. It's a simple plan, but it just might work. If you treat the cedar as if it were spruce you're bound to get into trouble, because they have slightly different properties, both tonally and structurally.
Beware - Whilst cedar may make a good sounding soundboard, it is not very hard wearing. I have seen a Fylde guitar with the soundboard worn right through to the brace by the plectrum - still sounded great, mind.
I have heard tell that, whilst a spruce soundboard matures over the decades and centuries, a cedar one reaches its peak much earlier on and likewise deteriorates much more quickly. But I haven't known a cedar-topped instrument long enough to verify this.
I love walnut, as much for its appearance and scent as for its acoustic properties. I also like walnuts, and there's something nice about playing an instrument made from a tree that bears things edible as well.
Incidentally, the coconut-bodied mandolin that I made to carry in my rucksack whilst walking to Portugal had a cedar soundboard. Unfortunately it split in several places (not along the joins, I hasten to add) on a very hot day in Normandy. However, this might have something to do with the wood not being dry enough beforehand - it was made out of a post from an anti-war march banner, picked up off the grass in Hyde Park.
As to cedar peaking early while spruce mellows for decades, I’ve been hearing that for decades but I’ve also recently heard at least one luthier question it. Really, all of these comparisons we hear about are anecdotal. Nobody has done a double-blind controlled longitudinal study with a large enough sample size for statistical confidence.
I’ve heard that a cedar top sacrifices volume, but as I said, my cedar-top Lowden is very loud.
If I were you, Phil, I’d go with a combination that the luthier knows and is confident with.
I don't have any real knowledge to impart here, but if you're hungry for more, post over in the builders' section of mandolincafe.com; there are lots of builders, wood nerds, and players with direct experience who will pipe in. Bob's caution above seems prudent though.
I have a spruce top and indian rosewood Abnet and it is STILL my favourite of anything I have ever played.
Are you going for the DISHED back or flat. If you haven't tried the dished back on the Abnet I would highly recommend it ! Here is mine http://www.chinatogalway.com/Abnet.htm
I would agree that cedar can sound very much like spruce, but it is a much softer wood.
I could send you a Flyde Cedar top bouzouki, if you send me your Abnet spruce top.......................
I have some figured claro walnut back and side woods awaiting the next guitar I make (I call them Iris Guitars on the headstock, so since I have only made one thus far, must make at least one more, hence GuitarS!) I like the sound of rosewood over mahogony, but find maple lovely and bright and crisp...I gave a friend my only maple guitar, but hope to make one someday....and the walnut, my luthier around the corner who will be my mentor, wow does he have some nice sounding walnut ones......warmer than the rosewood, softer.
As for the tops, what I have learned is if you want LOUD, make sure the grain is wide. Engleman and Adirondack are usually louder, but I have seen tighter grained Engleman or Adirondack sound softer than a wide grain Sitka Spruce. My teacher says it's more about the grain width of the top no matter what the wood.
Also if the top is thinner it will resonate more. It's really fascinating.
BTW, you can, if adventurous go make your own mandolin with Frank Finocchio, the luthier in Easton PA. He does a weeklong class, and you will learn a lot about many woods. He teaches a guitar course too. That's where I made mine. The next will be guided by my neighbor, Imagine being a guitar fanatic and finding out a luthier lives around the corner. Our property touches in the back! We've both been here for years and never knew!
I'm fascinated with walnut, and I have some stashed in the log awaiting the proper luthier moment to use it.
I'd love a cedar/walnut instrument, and have lusted after the Lowden guitars I've heard in that config. Other than those, I've only heard mandolins in that config, and liked them very well, too.
My Phil Crump zouk has a cedar top and I really, really like it.
I know the orthodoxy of it, as you say, but I have only had this one about five years, so I don't know how it will be in the long run. It did come 'up to voice' very quickly, and it is quite loud. I like high string tensions and a fairly high action, and it's not balked at either of those. Oh, the b/s of the Crump are rosewood, and I love the depth and overtones.
There are a lot of spruce/rosewood instruments out there ...
I vote cedar/walnut, but follow your heart on this one...!
We have some local luthiers here in NJ and PA that I think have Lowdens beat by a long the new ones too whatever they became, different name i think?
The one with the best sounding guitars I have ever come across are made by Ed Foley in Andover NJ. He could use your walnut, he's not cheap though. I am blessed with three of his. One I paid a ton of $$ for. The other two I got used for a steal, irresistable.
More fun would be to take Franck Finocchio's guitar building course in Easton PA. It is a grueling week, 7 days, 10-12 hour days, lots of work. Your guitar is raw wood when you go. When I was at the course a friend of Frank's came in and he's another luthier, and happened to be my neighbor! Strange, no one lives here! It's farms and sparsley populated. His name is TOny DeDomenico. He taught me how to do the French Polish and said he'd help me build another early next year.
Frank's and Tony's guitars are great, the sound is just below a Foley. If yo ever take that trip out east you'll have to stop by and I will take you to these luthiers if you want. The Foleys have some special magic though.
Tony is into the walnut, I played his M size walnut and fell in love with it. Nice surprise he was around the corner! Can't wait to use my walnut.
I would go for the Rosewood myself, even though some Walnut zouks can be nice. Rosewood is a good strong choice, and looks great too on an Abnet.
As for the top, I think Cedar can have a lovely grain pattern and it does have a good tone on some instruments, but it is Spruce all the way for me. It really does get better and better with age.
Just a few extra thoughts on guitar/bouzouki woods. To me they DO make a difference, cedar is warmer and softer than spruce, and you USUALLY sacrifice some volume as well. It's all very well commenting on individual cedar-topped instruments being loud, but this may be due to other factors.
Walnut and mahogany are generally softer than rosewood and the same principle applies. So a cedar/walnut instrument would have much softer tonal characteristics than (say) a spruce/rosewood combination. Flame maple is also commonly used for back and sides of American instruments, as on my Guild D30 guitar, gives a nice bright sound.
Just for complication, there is more than one type of rosewood. INDIAN rosewood has tended to be the most common, but BRAZILIAN rosewood is much harder and more "Spanish-y" in tone. My Joe Foley bouzouki has a spruce top with MADAGASCAR rosewood back and sides, again this wood is harder than Indian rosewood.
Spruce and cedar are not the only choices for tops either, there are some all-mahogany guitars made, and I have a Joe Foley guitar with an OREGON PINE top. It is a nice wide grain, it's nice and loud with a superb bass tone and good overall response - excellent for an acoustic trad. session. Joe has told me that Oregon Pine is in fact in the midle between spruce and cedar so it is sort of a compromise between the two. This guitar has Indian Rosewood back and sides by the way. Brian O'Shea has a bouzouki made using the same combination of woods and it sounds great.
If I was getting a (Joe Foley) bouzouki made from scratch tomorrow I would ask for a cedar top with Indian rosewood back and sides. I think the cedar tops work really well with Joes's design, but the Abnett bouzoukis are a completely different kettle of fish with a much "thinner" sound".
However if I was getting a guitar made I would go for a spruce top (with Indian rosewood back/sides).
Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Hi all,
Ordering a new Abnett and have been thinking about these two combinations. I currently have a spruce/rosewood 8 stringer and it's opening up very well and has a very nice tone now.
I will be ordering a 10 stringer with an extra high course. Peter advised me that the Cedar top might not be the best thing to do due to the added stress of an extra pair but said it should be ok. But I can't decide on the combination I want.
What I know so far;
-Cedar has a warmer and more mellow tone than Spruce
-Spruce opens up much more over time and eventually becomes as mellow.(is that bit true?)
What I don't know;
-The differance between Rosewood and Walnut
-Everything else
I want to be loud enough to be heard playing tunes in a session yet I want a mellow sound. Could I get some advice?
What's your favourite combination and why?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I've been advocating cedar/walnut for over 20 years now.
Why? Because I like it. Your milage may vary and it's your instrument.
KFG
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Yep, walnut is an excellent tonewood. My impression, so far, is that it tends to support a warm tone. The two walnut guitars I’m most familiar with both seem to be somewhere between rosewood and mahogany in voice characteristics.
Cedar can make a good soundboard, if the luthier knows how to work with it, but I’m not sure I would describe it as warm and mellow, compared to spruce. Either wood can vary a lot and can be manipulated and tuned by a good luthier. I have a Lowden guitar with a cedar top and it has some very complex tonal characteristics. It can do warm, dark and mellow and it can also do bright and crisp. It’s also a loud’un.
What’s your experience, Kevin?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I'd agree with you. While the different woods certainly have their own tones the tone of an instrument is far more in the hands of the luthier than in the materials. You can make crap out of anything and something decent out of just about anything from cardboard to carbon fiber.
Talk about the tone of various woods is really only appropriate when discussing instruments that are otherwise identical, and it really isn't appropriate to build instruments of differing materials indentically.
The problem is that luthiers get set in their ways and treat new materials like the ones they are used to. You have to clear your mind and examine the actual properties of what you're working with and cater to that. It's engineering.
For instance, the admontion about the added stress. Well, like, take that into account and build the top to take the added stress? It's a plan. It's a simple plan, but it just might work. If you treat the cedar as if it were spruce you're bound to get into trouble, because they have slightly different properties, both tonally and structurally.
KFG
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Beware - Whilst cedar may make a good sounding soundboard, it is not very hard wearing. I have seen a Fylde guitar with the soundboard worn right through to the brace by the plectrum - still sounded great, mind.
I have heard tell that, whilst a spruce soundboard matures over the decades and centuries, a cedar one reaches its peak much earlier on and likewise deteriorates much more quickly. But I haven't known a cedar-topped instrument long enough to verify this.
I love walnut, as much for its appearance and scent as for its acoustic properties. I also like walnuts, and there's something nice about playing an instrument made from a tree that bears things edible as well.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Incidentally, the coconut-bodied mandolin that I made to carry in my rucksack whilst walking to Portugal had a cedar soundboard. Unfortunately it split in several places (not along the joins, I hasten to add) on a very hot day in Normandy. However, this might have something to do with the wood not being dry enough beforehand - it was made out of a post from an anti-war march banner, picked up off the grass in Hyde Park.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
One of the well-known guitar mfgrs (was it Taylor?) built a guitar from wood salvaged from shipping crates. Rumor has it that it sounds quite good.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
As to cedar peaking early while spruce mellows for decades, I’ve been hearing that for decades but I’ve also recently heard at least one luthier question it. Really, all of these comparisons we hear about are anecdotal. Nobody has done a double-blind controlled longitudinal study with a large enough sample size for statistical confidence.
I’ve heard that a cedar top sacrifices volume, but as I said, my cedar-top Lowden is very loud.
If I were you, Phil, I’d go with a combination that the luthier knows and is confident with.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
PJA,
I don't have any real knowledge to impart here, but if you're hungry for more, post over in the builders' section of mandolincafe.com; there are lots of builders, wood nerds, and players with direct experience who will pipe in. Bob's caution above seems prudent though.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I have a spruce top and indian rosewood Abnet and it is STILL my favourite of anything I have ever played.
Are you going for the DISHED back or flat. If you haven't tried the dished back on the Abnet I would highly recommend it ! Here is mine
http://www.chinatogalway.com/Abnet.htm
I would agree that cedar can sound very much like spruce, but it is a much softer wood.
I could send you a Flyde Cedar top bouzouki, if you send me your Abnet spruce top.......................
KS
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by KS
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I have some figured claro walnut back and side woods awaiting the next guitar I make (I call them Iris Guitars on the headstock, so since I have only made one thus far, must make at least one more, hence GuitarS!) I like the sound of rosewood over mahogony, but find maple lovely and bright and crisp...I gave a friend my only maple guitar, but hope to make one someday....and the walnut, my luthier around the corner who will be my mentor, wow does he have some nice sounding walnut ones......warmer than the rosewood, softer.
As for the tops, what I have learned is if you want LOUD, make sure the grain is wide. Engleman and Adirondack are usually louder, but I have seen tighter grained Engleman or Adirondack sound softer than a wide grain Sitka Spruce. My teacher says it's more about the grain width of the top no matter what the wood.
Also if the top is thinner it will resonate more. It's really fascinating.
BTW, you can, if adventurous go make your own mandolin with Frank Finocchio, the luthier in Easton PA. He does a weeklong class, and you will learn a lot about many woods. He teaches a guitar course too. That's where I made mine. The next will be guided by my neighbor, Imagine being a guitar fanatic and finding out a luthier lives around the corner. Our property touches in the back! We've both been here for years and never knew!
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by irisnevins
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I'm fascinated with walnut, and I have some stashed in the log awaiting the proper luthier moment to use it.
I'd love a cedar/walnut instrument, and have lusted after the Lowden guitars I've heard in that config. Other than those, I've only heard mandolins in that config, and liked them very well, too.
My Phil Crump zouk has a cedar top and I really, really like it.
I know the orthodoxy of it, as you say, but I have only had this one about five years, so I don't know how it will be in the long run. It did come 'up to voice' very quickly, and it is quite loud. I like high string tensions and a fairly high action, and it's not balked at either of those. Oh, the b/s of the Crump are rosewood, and I love the depth and overtones.
There are a lot of spruce/rosewood instruments out there ...
I vote cedar/walnut, but follow your heart on this one...!
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
We have some local luthiers here in NJ and PA that I think have Lowdens beat by a long the new ones too whatever they became, different name i think?
The one with the best sounding guitars I have ever come across are made by Ed Foley in Andover NJ. He could use your walnut, he's not cheap though. I am blessed with three of his. One I paid a ton of $$ for. The other two I got used for a steal, irresistable.
More fun would be to take Franck Finocchio's guitar building course in Easton PA. It is a grueling week, 7 days, 10-12 hour days, lots of work. Your guitar is raw wood when you go. When I was at the course a friend of Frank's came in and he's another luthier, and happened to be my neighbor! Strange, no one lives here! It's farms and sparsley populated. His name is TOny DeDomenico. He taught me how to do the French Polish and said he'd help me build another early next year.
Frank's and Tony's guitars are great, the sound is just below a Foley. If yo ever take that trip out east you'll have to stop by and I will take you to these luthiers if you want. The Foleys have some special magic though.
Tony is into the walnut, I played his M size walnut and fell in love with it. Nice surprise he was around the corner! Can't wait to use my walnut.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by irisnevins
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
I would go for the Rosewood myself, even though some Walnut zouks can be nice. Rosewood is a good strong choice, and looks great too on an Abnet.
As for the top, I think Cedar can have a lovely grain pattern and it does have a good tone on some instruments, but it is Spruce all the way for me. It really does get better and better with age.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by seaniemcg
Re: Spruce/Rosewood VS Cedar/Walnut
Just a few extra thoughts on guitar/bouzouki woods. To me they DO make a difference, cedar is warmer and softer than spruce, and you USUALLY sacrifice some volume as well. It's all very well commenting on individual cedar-topped instruments being loud, but this may be due to other factors.
Walnut and mahogany are generally softer than rosewood and the same principle applies. So a cedar/walnut instrument would have much softer tonal characteristics than (say) a spruce/rosewood combination. Flame maple is also commonly used for back and sides of American instruments, as on my Guild D30 guitar, gives a nice bright sound.
Just for complication, there is more than one type of rosewood. INDIAN rosewood has tended to be the most common, but BRAZILIAN rosewood is much harder and more "Spanish-y" in tone. My Joe Foley bouzouki has a spruce top with MADAGASCAR rosewood back and sides, again this wood is harder than Indian rosewood.
Spruce and cedar are not the only choices for tops either, there are some all-mahogany guitars made, and I have a Joe Foley guitar with an OREGON PINE top. It is a nice wide grain, it's nice and loud with a superb bass tone and good overall response - excellent for an acoustic trad. session. Joe has told me that Oregon Pine is in fact in the midle between spruce and cedar so it is sort of a compromise between the two. This guitar has Indian Rosewood back and sides by the way. Brian O'Shea has a bouzouki made using the same combination of woods and it sounds great.
If I was getting a (Joe Foley) bouzouki made from scratch tomorrow I would ask for a cedar top with Indian rosewood back and sides. I think the cedar tops work really well with Joes's design, but the Abnett bouzoukis are a completely different kettle of fish with a much "thinner" sound".
However if I was getting a guitar made I would go for a spruce top (with Indian rosewood back/sides).
# Posted on December 6th 2005 by lysaghtm