New guy came to session tonight with a gueetar, and started playing like the devil was sitting on his shoulder, strumming the bejaysus out of the thing. He was overpowering the pipes, even!
This session is such nice people, that they treated the guy really well, even though he insisted on getting real close to people while doing his G, C, D thang. Since it was getting late anyway and i didn't know the tunes at that point, i just stood up and went home.
First i was pissed off, but later, do you know what that made me think of? It made me think of my first session, the one when i was so proud of how loud my flute sounded.
So, guitar guy, if you're reading this, sorry bud, don't mind me and just keep playing!
Sorry that would annoy me! Not cause he is a beginner, but because he was so loud he drowned ou the pipes! That isnt good enough & When I was a beginner I would never have had the nerve to do anything of the sort. So to all you beginners out there, good on you for getting into it, just please dont take over, listening is the best way you'll learn ) Very sweet story tho glauber
I think it's incredible how someone will come up to a group of total strangers in different stages of intoxication, pull out a guitar and start strumming G, C, D, chords like he was Cuchulain himself, with no thought or fear that he'd go home wearing that guitar around his neck. Musicians are a funny bunch, really.
On the other hand, hey, people have to start somewhere. It takes time to shake off all the preconceived notions about what "Celtic" should sound like, and actually learn the thing.
What can you do? I was wondering how we pass out the unofficial rules to session playing. We certainly don't hand out a list of them. Perhaps a sharp glance? Works great with folks who have a clue. (I personally do not have a clue - thank you for being tolerant!) Perhaps we should beat the stuffing out of them? (Get out your Brass knuckles Zina!)
I have a solution! We can post the rules.
Play as loud as you can all the time.
Play incorrect Notes - Unless of course you are very drunk then you might enjoy the challenge of playing the right notes.
If your chords are not jiving, don't stop, keep going and going. Play those wrong chords louder and louder. Feel free to put your interpretation on the rythym while you are loudly playing the wrong chords.
Don't play anything with a consistent tempo. Make the others figure out where you went to as often as possible. In fact, don't even listen to steady tempo the others around you trying to maintain.
When you decide it's your "turn" to play, Just jump on in and don't stop until you feel like sipping a drink, going to the restroom or everyone has left the circle.
Feel free to talk loud, walk away, or just stop playing when a beginner starts playing Maurie's Wedding, Kesh Jig, Swallow Tail Jig etc. etc. etc.
Feel Free to Talk Loud when you don't know the tune.
There are just not near enough bones, spoons, rasps, triangles, shaky things, tamborines, KAzoos, Didges, Mouth Harps, slide whistles, Crumb Horns, American Indian Flutes in the key of xflat minor, and Practice chanters at sessions. Bring them in and run those Flutes, Whistles, Fiddles, and Banjos out of there.
The rules vary from session to session depending on where you go.
The rules vary from night to night depending on who shows up.
If you bring your band - be sure to play your tunes with your own twists as often as possible.
There are more rules but you must break them and be punished before we let you know that you broke it.
There you are! Follow those rules and you will be able to count the seconds before Zina has those brass knuckles on.
I wonder what the begginers will say of Us? 'Oh yeah, I used to play with Glauber all the time before he put out his debut CD on the Shanachie label."
True, but Its about how they aproach it, y'know, either think they are brilliant to start or know they have a very long way to go! I like the people who dont think they are incredible to start with!
Why do people always think I'm so mean and nasty?! I'm not! Really, I'm not. I'm quite friendly, actually.
It all reminds me of a kid I knew who went to a session and told me about it practically in tears afterwards...someone had taken him aside and told him he should play louder, and then someone else took him aside and told him to play softer, and then someone else asked him (in front of everybody) why he couldn't make up his mind which he was going to do.
Anyway, bb's right -- if a beginner has what that particular session considers a good attitude, it'll all come out all right. Playing loud, playing out of key, missing notes, murdering the tune...it'll all be fine eventually if the beginning player is a right one (and if they show signs of getting better especially as they go). Insofar as I can see, it's usually only when a beginner is either clueless and doesn't seem to want to get a clue, or worse when they have an inkling and don't care, that things get uncomfortable.
The rules HAVE been written down. Barry Foy and his Guide to the Irish Traditional Music Session said it all. Lots of people don't like it, but it's all true anyway.
Bottom line: The Rules *do* vary from session to session, and it's worth your life to not try to fit in when joining a new one. But thank god for players like Glauber who give the newbies a break.
It's a nice thought, Jonathan, but I personally don't think it covers it all. Unfortunately. I'd love it if it did, but it doesn't help most newbies. First off, too many people have too many different definitions of "considerate"!
Everybody was at the same stage once and if you think your something else because you've got good then it's gone to your head. I real beginner is someone who is trying to learn and the guys giving them a bad name are the guys that are playing years and say they are beginners. They are very easy to spot, they're quiet at the start but half way thru the night they think they're brillant and try to take over the show. You have to give beginners a break though because they find it hard enough as it is.
I think most of you on this site take yourselves much too seriously ( sorry, I don't like the cute little faces and
side comments offset by asterisks). I like what Jonathan purports- as in any social setting, learn the acceptable code of behavior for that particular environment. Take some responsibility for educating your fellow trad entusiastists. And lighten up! What was it I heard- rules where made to be broken? Mind you, keeping an open discourse with one's associates might alieviate many of these concerns. And Zina, interpretations of consideration are one thing, definitions are another...
I see we're back on to the session etiquette subject again. The problem is that we're trying to dissect our instinctive behaviour in a place that is noisey, smokey, atmospheric, full of music and more importantly during/after about 6 pints of Guinness (if we're lucky). We're writing about this usually at home, sober and in front of a computer! It's arguably of little relevance discussing what is right/wrong behaviour as newbies will inevitably learn the hard way i.e. at the session itself - it's also the best way and I'm sure it's where most of us learned the ropes. I like hearing everyone's little anecdotes though - keep 'em coming. Meanwhile I might consider taking my laptop along to the next session.... it will make a nice tray for the beer.
Yes, but Arbo, you don't like me at all either, and that's your loss insofar as I'm concerned. I use the "cute little faces and side comments" because they help avoid misunderstandings and needlessly upset feelings -- which is one of MY definitions of "considerate". (And help understandings, in some cases.)
It'd be a poor lookout for all involved if we all got along, anyway, because it would mean we were all alike. No skin off my teeth if you don't like me or the way I communicate. There are plenty who do. If one prefers to be so straightforward as to be taken as insulting, though, one can do so.
If we didn't take ITM seriously, how would it survive, and what would it survive as? There's lots of advantages to having those who take it (and themselves) seriously as well as those who don't.
Ha - I'm happy to admit I take the music seriously - so what?. Why on earth make such a big deal about it! I bet you guys a million bucks that Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Liz Carroll, Paraic Rynne, Mary Shannon, - (the list goes on and on) All take the music seriously! And God sakes paul - noone on this site is giving beginers a bad name! Where did you read that?? We all readily admit that we all think we have major work to do on our playing! Or havent you read any of those threads? There are two types of people on this site, those who take the music seriously and those who dont. Good - each to their own, its ok to want to be good isnt it? Its ok to want to go to a nice session, isnt it? Its ok to want to go to a session that doesnt involve hurdy gurdys and bongo drums, isnt it? Sorry I dont ask for much, just a nice tunes session with no weird, loud noisy instruments! Thats it! Beginers are welcome at any session - just as long as they dont come into a session thats been going on for years and take over! Common Sense!
Both my computers are equiped with coffee coasters, which can serve very well as beer coasters too. It's rather nifty, they recede into the computer until needed, and slide out at the press of a button.
My computer at home has 2 such built-in coasters, but unfortunately they're not far enough apart (only about 4cm!), so it's not possible to use both at the same time.
It's puzzling to me that some people are hostile towards the smileys. They're an accepted way to compensate for the lack of face contact in Internet discussions. Or at least they were, in the old days, the 1990s, when Cyberspace was free and wild.
Imnotirish, how can you say "I think most of you on this site take yourselves much too seriously" and then immediately say "sorry, I don't like the cute little faces and side comments offset by asterisks"?
If you ignore the emoticons, then of course everyone is going to come off sounding really serious - that's why we have emoticons in the first place!
It's like saying "when I talk to people, I don't like to take any notice of their facial expressions or the tone of their voice" and then complaining that everyone you talk to is way too serious.
If you don't like the smiley faces, that's fine. But they do serve a purpose. And if you choose to ignore them, then you are in no position to make any judgement on the level of seriousness in a post.
Zina, I don't know you at all. I'm not here to make judgements about character, rather to gather some informative information. I appreciate the fact that many on this list find satisfaction in the "social" banter that goes on. The fact that you choose to emphasize your emotional state through the use of an icon or two has no bearing whatsoever on my opinion of you as a person. I simply am not moved by their usuage.
If the emoticons and asides and self-deprecating remarks don't move you, if they aren't part of the communication you take from reading these posts, then of course we all sound deadly serious (and insufferably boring I would think). And you've precisely missed the point of 99 percent of the comments posted.
Sure, this site can be informative, but as long as we maintain some semblance of civility, there's no reason it can't also be fun, in any number of ways and inflections.
A semblance of civility? I do hope I haven't errored on the side of civility... With respect to the 99% of the comments posted, just what do you see as being the 'point' ? Just looking for some clarity...
I'm genuinely sorry. Didn't mean for my previous comment to be so insulting to Arbo, because I thought the point of most of these discussions was pretty obvious--we're having fun. The edification is secondary, a welcome and perhaps even sought after side effect, but a side effect nonetheless. Sorta like playing tunes in a dim pub week after week, you come away feeling good, and after a year or two you realize you actually improved your playing in the process.
For me, the emoticon and *grins* and other clues aren't about the poster's emotions, but signals that help me determine how the poster expects *me* to react. And the asterisks are mostly used to emphasize words the way italics do--because we can't type in italics here.
I'd just like to clear something up for Arbo here.
You mention that you come to this site "to gather some informative information". That's fine but this site is *not* first and foremost an information site - it's a community site.
When you say "I can appreciate the fact that many on the list find satisfaction in the social banter that goes on", you're actually defining the heart of the site. This site exists for that "social banter" - the information is secondary.
There are other sites out there with more comprehensive lists of tunes, sessions, recordings, etc. What sets this site apart is the addition of comments.
If someone, say, posts a tune, then that's good. If they subsequently post a comment about where they first heard it and the emotional effect it had on them, then that's ten times better.
So, in answer to your question "what's the point?", I would say it's the social interaction - certainly not the information - that's important.
It's like the chat between tunes at a real session (with the difference that the participants are sometimes thousands of miles apart). Don't you ever chat at sessions? If so, must it always be for information, never just for the sake of civility, camraderie and good old fashioned craic?
You are, of course, free to ignore that whole side of The Session and you can view the site simply as a storehouse of information. But if you do, then you're missing the whole point of this site.
I gave some more thought to the problem with the coasters / beer mug holders in my home computer, and i think that, since it's a Japanese machine, they were probably meant for sake cups. That explains the small separation, too small to use both at the same time for pints.
Ah beginners...
Ah beginners...
New guy came to session tonight with a gueetar, and started playing like the devil was sitting on his shoulder, strumming the bejaysus out of the thing. He was overpowering the pipes, even!
This session is such nice people, that they treated the guy really well, even though he insisted on getting real close to people while doing his G, C, D thang. Since it was getting late anyway and i didn't know the tunes at that point, i just stood up and went home.
First i was pissed off, but later, do you know what that made me think of? It made me think of my first session, the one when i was so proud of how loud my flute sounded.
So, guitar guy, if you're reading this, sorry bud, don't mind me and just keep playing!
# Posted on September 4th 2002 by glauber
Re: Ah beginners...
Sorry that would annoy me! Not cause he is a beginner, but because he was so loud he drowned ou the pipes! That isnt good enough & When I was a beginner I would never have had the nerve to do anything of the sort. So to all you beginners out there, good on you for getting into it, just please dont take over, listening is the best way you'll learn
) Very sweet story tho glauber 
# Posted on September 4th 2002 by bb
Re: Ah beginners...
I think it's incredible how someone will come up to a group of total strangers in different stages of intoxication, pull out a guitar and start strumming G, C, D, chords like he was Cuchulain himself, with no thought or fear that he'd go home wearing that guitar around his neck. Musicians are a funny bunch, really.
On the other hand, hey, people have to start somewhere. It takes time to shake off all the preconceived notions about what "Celtic" should sound like, and actually learn the thing.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by glauber
Re: Ah beginners...
What can you do? I was wondering how we pass out the unofficial rules to session playing. We certainly don't hand out a list of them. Perhaps a sharp glance? Works great with folks who have a clue. (I personally do not have a clue - thank you for being tolerant!) Perhaps we should beat the stuffing out of them? (Get out your Brass knuckles Zina!)
I have a solution! We can post the rules.
Play as loud as you can all the time.
Play incorrect Notes - Unless of course you are very drunk then you might enjoy the challenge of playing the right notes.
If your chords are not jiving, don't stop, keep going and going. Play those wrong chords louder and louder. Feel free to put your interpretation on the rythym while you are loudly playing the wrong chords.
Don't play anything with a consistent tempo. Make the others figure out where you went to as often as possible. In fact, don't even listen to steady tempo the others around you trying to maintain.
When you decide it's your "turn" to play, Just jump on in and don't stop until you feel like sipping a drink, going to the restroom or everyone has left the circle.
Feel free to talk loud, walk away, or just stop playing when a beginner starts playing Maurie's Wedding, Kesh Jig, Swallow Tail Jig etc. etc. etc.
Feel Free to Talk Loud when you don't know the tune.
There are just not near enough bones, spoons, rasps, triangles, shaky things, tamborines, KAzoos, Didges, Mouth Harps, slide whistles, Crumb Horns, American Indian Flutes in the key of xflat minor, and Practice chanters at sessions. Bring them in and run those Flutes, Whistles, Fiddles, and Banjos out of there.
The rules vary from session to session depending on where you go.
The rules vary from night to night depending on who shows up.
If you bring your band - be sure to play your tunes with your own twists as often as possible.
There are more rules but you must break them and be punished before we let you know that you broke it.
There you are! Follow those rules and you will be able to count the seconds before Zina has those brass knuckles on.
I wonder what the begginers will say of Us? 'Oh yeah, I used to play with Glauber all the time before he put out his debut CD on the Shanachie label."
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Ah beginners...
True, but Its about how they aproach it, y'know, either think they are brilliant to start or know they have a very long way to go! I like the people who dont think they are incredible to start with!
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by bb
Re: Ah beginners...
Why do people always think I'm so mean and nasty?! I'm not! Really, I'm not. I'm quite friendly, actually.
It all reminds me of a kid I knew who went to a session and told me about it practically in tears afterwards...someone had taken him aside and told him he should play louder, and then someone else took him aside and told him to play softer, and then someone else asked him (in front of everybody) why he couldn't make up his mind which he was going to do.
Anyway, bb's right -- if a beginner has what that particular session considers a good attitude, it'll all come out all right. Playing loud, playing out of key, missing notes, murdering the tune...it'll all be fine eventually if the beginning player is a right one (and if they show signs of getting better especially as they go). Insofar as I can see, it's usually only when a beginner is either clueless and doesn't seem to want to get a clue, or worse when they have an inkling and don't care, that things get uncomfortable.
The rules HAVE been written down. Barry Foy and his Guide to the Irish Traditional Music Session said it all. Lots of people don't like it, but it's all true anyway.
Bottom line: The Rules *do* vary from session to session, and it's worth your life to not try to fit in when joining a new one. But thank god for players like Glauber who give the newbies a break.
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Ah beginners...
I'd say sod the rules - the only rule you need is "be considerate".
Jonathan.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Jonathan
Re: Ah beginners...
It's a nice thought, Jonathan, but I personally don't think it covers it all. Unfortunately. I'd love it if it did, but it doesn't help most newbies. First off, too many people have too many different definitions of "considerate"!
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Ah beginners...
Everybody was at the same stage once and if you think your something else because you've got good then it's gone to your head. I real beginner is someone who is trying to learn and the guys giving them a bad name are the guys that are playing years and say they are beginners. They are very easy to spot, they're quiet at the start but half way thru the night they think they're brillant and try to take over the show. You have to give beginners a break though because they find it hard enough as it is.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Paul-Kin
Re: Ah beginners...
I think most of you on this site take yourselves much too seriously ( sorry, I don't like the cute little faces and
side comments offset by asterisks). I like what Jonathan purports- as in any social setting, learn the acceptable code of behavior for that particular environment. Take some responsibility for educating your fellow trad entusiastists. And lighten up! What was it I heard- rules where made to be broken? Mind you, keeping an open discourse with one's associates might alieviate many of these concerns. And Zina, interpretations of consideration are one thing, definitions are another...
Arbo
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: Ah beginners...
I see we're back on to the session etiquette subject again. The problem is that we're trying to dissect our instinctive behaviour in a place that is noisey, smokey, atmospheric, full of music and more importantly during/after about 6 pints of Guinness (if we're lucky). We're writing about this usually at home, sober and in front of a computer! It's arguably of little relevance discussing what is right/wrong behaviour as newbies will inevitably learn the hard way i.e. at the session itself - it's also the best way and I'm sure it's where most of us learned the ropes. I like hearing everyone's little anecdotes though - keep 'em coming. Meanwhile I might consider taking my laptop along to the next session.... it will make a nice tray for the beer.
All the hairy chest
Con
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Ah beginners...
I agree with Imnotirish. Most people on this site take themselfs to seriously. But everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter what it is.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Paul-Kin
Imnotirisheither
Hey, Arbo, take me (;;) seriously - *or else* !!!!!!
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Ptarmigan
Re: Ah beginners...
Yes, but Arbo, you don't like me at all either, and that's your loss insofar as I'm concerned.
I use the "cute little faces and side comments" because they help avoid misunderstandings and needlessly upset feelings -- which is one of MY definitions of "considerate". (And help understandings, in some cases.)
It'd be a poor lookout for all involved if we all got along, anyway, because it would mean we were all alike. No skin off my teeth if you don't like me or the way I communicate. There are plenty who do. If one prefers to be so straightforward as to be taken as insulting, though, one can do so.
If we didn't take ITM seriously, how would it survive, and what would it survive as? There's lots of advantages to having those who take it (and themselves) seriously as well as those who don't.
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Ah beginners...
Ha - I'm happy to admit I take the music seriously - so what?. Why on earth make such a big deal about it! I bet you guys a million bucks that Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Liz Carroll, Paraic Rynne, Mary Shannon, - (the list goes on and on) All take the music seriously! And God sakes paul - noone on this site is giving beginers a bad name! Where did you read that?? We all readily admit that we all think we have major work to do on our playing! Or havent you read any of those threads? There are two types of people on this site, those who take the music seriously and those who dont. Good - each to their own, its ok to want to be good isnt it? Its ok to want to go to a nice session, isnt it? Its ok to want to go to a session that doesnt involve hurdy gurdys and bongo drums, isnt it? Sorry I dont ask for much, just a nice tunes session with no weird, loud noisy instruments! Thats it! Beginers are welcome at any session - just as long as they dont come into a session thats been going on for years and take over! Common Sense!
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by bb
Beer tray
Both my computers are equiped with coffee coasters, which can serve very well as beer coasters too. It's rather nifty, they recede into the computer until needed, and slide out at the press of a button.
My computer at home has 2 such built-in coasters, but unfortunately they're not far enough apart (only about 4cm!), so it's not possible to use both at the same time.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by glauber
Smiley faces
It's puzzling to me that some people are hostile towards the smileys. They're an accepted way to compensate for the lack of face contact in Internet discussions. Or at least they were, in the old days, the 1990s, when Cyberspace was free and wild.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by glauber
Re: Ah beginners...
I agree completely.
Imnotirish, how can you say "I think most of you on this site take yourselves much too seriously" and then immediately say "sorry, I don't like the cute little faces and side comments offset by asterisks"?
If you ignore the emoticons, then of course everyone is going to come off sounding really serious - that's why we have emoticons in the first place!
It's like saying "when I talk to people, I don't like to take any notice of their facial expressions or the tone of their voice" and then complaining that everyone you talk to is way too serious.
If you don't like the smiley faces, that's fine. But they do serve a purpose. And if you choose to ignore them, then you are in no position to make any judgement on the level of seriousness in a post.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Jeremy
Re: Ah beginners...
Zina, I don't know you at all. I'm not here to make judgements about character, rather to gather some informative information. I appreciate the fact that many on this list find satisfaction in the "social" banter that goes on. The fact that you choose to emphasize your emotional state through the use of an icon or two has no bearing whatsoever on my opinion of you as a person. I simply am not moved by their usuage.
Arbo
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: Ah beginners...
Fair enough, Arbo. I suppose I was making assumptions based on previous interactions.
Zina
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Ah beginners...
If the emoticons and asides and self-deprecating remarks don't move you, if they aren't part of the communication you take from reading these posts, then of course we all sound deadly serious (and insufferably boring I would think). And you've precisely missed the point of 99 percent of the comments posted.
Sure, this site can be informative, but as long as we maintain some semblance of civility, there's no reason it can't also be fun, in any number of ways and inflections.
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Ah beginners...
A semblance of civility? I do hope I haven't errored on the side of civility... With respect to the 99% of the comments posted, just what do you see as being the 'point' ? Just looking for some clarity...
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: Ah beginners...
Goodness arbo, I think you just love to agrue or something, this is really stupid
) 
) (extra smilies just for you)
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by bb
Re: Ah beginners...
I'm genuinely sorry. Didn't mean for my previous comment to be so insulting to Arbo, because I thought the point of most of these discussions was pretty obvious--we're having fun. The edification is secondary, a welcome and perhaps even sought after side effect, but a side effect nonetheless. Sorta like playing tunes in a dim pub week after week, you come away feeling good, and after a year or two you realize you actually improved your playing in the process.
For me, the emoticon and *grins* and other clues aren't about the poster's emotions, but signals that help me determine how the poster expects *me* to react. And the asterisks are mostly used to emphasize words the way italics do--because we can't type in italics here.
Does that provide some clarity?
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Ah beginners...
I'd just like to clear something up for Arbo here.
You mention that you come to this site "to gather some informative information". That's fine but this site is *not* first and foremost an information site - it's a community site.
When you say "I can appreciate the fact that many on the list find satisfaction in the social banter that goes on", you're actually defining the heart of the site. This site exists for that "social banter" - the information is secondary.
There are other sites out there with more comprehensive lists of tunes, sessions, recordings, etc. What sets this site apart is the addition of comments.
If someone, say, posts a tune, then that's good. If they subsequently post a comment about where they first heard it and the emotional effect it had on them, then that's ten times better.
So, in answer to your question "what's the point?", I would say it's the social interaction - certainly not the information - that's important.
It's like the chat between tunes at a real session (with the difference that the participants are sometimes thousands of miles apart). Don't you ever chat at sessions? If so, must it always be for information, never just for the sake of civility, camraderie and good old fashioned craic?
You are, of course, free to ignore that whole side of The Session and you can view the site simply as a storehouse of information. But if you do, then you're missing the whole point of this site.
Is that cleared up, now?
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Jeremy
Re: Ah beginners...
Ah, Jeremy, yer not just our Benevolent Dictator...yer a god.
Zina
# Posted on September 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Ah beginners...
Ah Jeremy, you're a gentleman and a scholar!
Raising my pint to ye...
# Posted on September 7th 2002 by glauber
Coasters
I gave some more thought to the problem with the coasters / beer mug holders in my home computer, and i think that, since it's a Japanese machine, they were probably meant for sake cups. That explains the small separation, too small to use both at the same time for pints.
# Posted on September 7th 2002 by glauber
Re: Ah beginners...
Those'd be some pretty big sak
# Posted on September 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
No hard info,just a very cheap comment...
oh,for heaven's sake....
...i'll get my coat...
if you're here to get arcane insights,don't look to me for any.
i dare yez.
# Posted on September 8th 2002 by biggus dave