I once started a discussion to the effect that there "may" be a difference between a musician and a player. The overall consensus was that we could all be described as musicians, albeit some of us were better than others.
So, this question is fairly straightforward.
If the Q was "Who or what is a *folk* musician?", then this would really open up a can of worms!
That's a very complicated question, mostly because the word "music" is extremely ambiguous. Music incorporates many different aspects (melody, harmony, rhythm, meter, tempo, improvisation, ornamentation, instrumentation, arrangement, contexts in which it's played, etc.) Which of these aspects have to be traditional in order to call something "traditional music"? Which of these aspects have to be traditional in order to call it "traditional playing"? Are these the same? I doubt it.
Is someone who dabbles in traditional music but mostly plays other things a traditional musician? Not in my book. I think a traditional musician would be one who is totally immersed in a particular tradition. For example, I met a young Cape Breton fiddler at 4 AM at a very eclectic session in Sharon Shannon's apartment at the Celtic Colours festival a few years ago who wouldn't take out her fiddle because all she knew was Cape Breton music. Someone who chooses repertoire because it is "traditional" is a traditionalist. Someone whose repertoire comes from a particular tradition is a traditional musician.
I agree KFG. I'm a traditional musician. I'm also a classical musician. I play more than one kind of traditional music, but I'm still a traditional musician.
Interesting thread this - I must admit, the slant I have on it, in my wee brain is that:
I am a musician cause I play musical instruments.
I only play traditional music so I think of myself as a musician who plays traditional music.
However, a traditional musician to me, is someone who is born into a traditional music environment, who grows up with traditional music as part of their life, in a traditional music family & learns to play from an early age, whether that's in some wee but 'n ben in West Clare, or in a musical family in the heart of London, Chicago or Sydney.
So it is as natural for them as breathing.
I learned to love this music with a passion, but only started playing it in my twenties, so I will never, in my book, really be what I think of as a traditional musician.
But hey, what's in a name.
Doesn't stop me enjoying da music!
I have to admit, this is a question I've asked myself a few times over the past thirty-odd years, without really being able to answer it. Just as explaining what is traditional music is notoriously difficult, so too is explaining what is a traditional musician. The later, to me, evokes certain images: a poor cottage in the west of Ireland; fiddle hanging in the kitchen; playing for self and friends; no question of arrangement, perforance or PA.
When Martin Carthy went to see old Sam Larner, or listened to field recordings of Joseph Taylor, he considered them the traditional singers and himself a revivalist of traditional song.
An outsider looking in.
However, times and traditions change. Are the images in my head no more than romanticisations? Do they show what is or what I imagine is? I really don't know. But probably.
I've been playing traditional music for a long time. Do I feel I'm a traditional musician? No, not really. Except that, for most of that time I've played only for myself and anyone who might be in the room. My instruments may hang on the wall, but certainly not in the kitchen: they're far too expensive to get covered in grease and crap.
I have this feeling that traditional musicians are born into it. It's a native rather than an adopted culture. I got into trad in 1971 after hearing Fairport Convention play Flatback Caper. Not quite the same thing.
I think traditional music and playing is part of a much wider culture which goes far beyond playing jigs and reels. I am not of that culture. I'm a Londoner (and proud of it, guvnor!) to Cockney and Yorkshire farming parents. None of my family had any interest in ... well, anything much. I came to the music because I loved it, and still do. I think I'm a player of traditional music.
We're back to trying to put soft categories into hard boxes. There's always the boundary conditions, where you can't decide which box it belongs in.
But, here's a few starters:
A traditional musician does't think that the other fiddler is holding his fiddle or bow wrong, because that's not the way it was done by Miss Paganini.
Traditional musicians don't feel unhappy because the music doesn't sound like jazz or rock.
Traditional Irish musicians don't feel the need for a 10 minute drum solo in the middle of the set.
Traditional musicians don't care that the music doesn't have a complex chordal structure, that the tunes are short and don't develop, that there isn't much use of syncopation, rubato, dynamics, that people don't break off the set to improvise an obbligato, that the tunes are nearly all in the same restricted set of keys, that the tunes don't often modulate...
I'm talking ITM here by the way, if you paly other traditions make up your own list.
Music isn't exclusionary, people are exclusionary. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't necessarily give up being exclusionary. One person's standards are another person's exclusions, and there's nothing wrong with that. Unless it's me being excluded, of course.
Would a traditional player refuse to play a tune written in the last decade, even if in a traditional style?
Would a traditional player refuse to play a tune because it was in the Scottish tradition as well (or even originally)?
No, and no. A traditional player might avoid a tune because it sounds alien to his/her tradition. They would probably feel that they don't understand it well enough to play it. Or they might try to play it in the style of their own tradition. Or they might dabble in music from other sources on the side. There's a recording of the old Scottish traditional singer Jane Turriff from Aberdeenshire singing a Jimmy Rodgers song, including the yodelling.
A traditional musician would be someone who has learned folk or "traditional" music specific to that particular cultural discipline. Nearly every country has traditional music with a discipline that's unique to themselves. A musician who studies these disciplines would be considered a "traditional musician." Classical musicians study traditional methods, but they aren't specific to one country's culture -- it's an international musical language and discipline. I don't know exactly where all of these lines would be drawn, for example, jazz -- there is "traditional" styles, but where the line is drawn is murky for me. Perhaps the New Orleans style is considered "traditional."
When musicians cross a line defined by the people who consider their music to be "folk" or "traditional" they often move into a category that's considered "popular." Take Bob Dylan, for example, a musician who trained himself in the discipline of folk music, and mentored Woody Guthrie. When he introduced electric instruments to what he was doing, he had the stalwart of that tradition, Pete Seeger, standing backstage with an axe ready to sever the cables to the sound system. From that time forward Dylan's music was considered "pop," but he was in many ways a "traditional" musician.
This happens in every type of traditional music. There are always "traditional" musicians who choose to cross the line and introduce or fuse modern musical techniques and instruments. If the material that's being fused into the traditional music overpowers the traditional music it transports the music into something else. The same is true with instruments. If the introduction of new instruments compliments the tradition -- it becomes part of it. Case in point; uilleann pipes, piano, bodhran, bouzouki, concertina, accordion, guitar, harmonica, etc. Some instruments aren't as successful, like the saxophone, but there is a tradition for that instrument in "traditional" Irish music as well.
So my opinion is that traditional musicians would be people who have studied and play folk music from specific traditions or cultures. Other styles i.e. jazz, classical, rock, etc. are established forms that exist beyond any specific country's folk tradition, even though you might be able to trace their origins back to folk music. Country music is American "traditional" or "folk" music until you fuse it with rock. At that point you have a popular genre known as "Country & Western." Many of the musicians in this genre might have learned the traditional or folk music before they entered the C&W world. They would be considered "traditional" musicians as well, but they would be playing a form of "pop" music.
In Irish music you have an Irish "pop" bands like The Corrs with some members who studied traditional music, and are "traditional" musicians, but they're playing pop music that’s using elements derived from folk music. But U2 doesn't have any members that are playing anything that resembles traditional music, so they clearly none of them are traditional musicians.
At the risk of disagreeing - I am both a classical musician studying the 'international musical langauge' and a traditional musician raised in a tradition of folk music. I was raised in old-time 'American' folk/traditional music. Which derives from many diffferent international styles. I consider myself to be both a traditional and classical musician. I am not a classical musician who plays traditional music. I'm a traditional musician who plays classical music.
And by traditional American music I do not mean country. At all. Period.
Jayzus! I wrote that hastily because I'm in the middle of a design project and the last sentence is atrocious. It should read: "But U2 doesn't have any members that are playing anything resembling Irish fok music, so none of them are "traditional" musicians."
Cecil Sharpe, who as an upper-middle-class englishman was able to stand away from the subject and look at it dispassionately, defined "folk", or traditional material ( including dance, song, and ritual theatrics like mummers plays ) by the three qualities of continuity ( people keep doing it ), selection ( some stuff gets left out, new stuff comes in ), and variation ( we aren't still all playing it like in O'Neills 1001).
Thomas Hardy ( himself a folk-fiddler ( not a lot of people know that ) ), also pointed out that the true distinction between yer actual traditional performer, doing it because they've always done it, and the revivalist ( I'd have put that word in italics if I knew how ) is that the traddie performs with every aspect of glumness and apathy ( I may have exaggerated slightly ), whereas the revivalist perfroms with much energy and enthusiasm.
On these counts that puts most of us in the revivalist camp I fear.
I don't think there's any harm in saying one is a player of tm, not an actual born-in the-wood traddie, you just have to know that some people grew up listening to it in their native home, whereas one came to it out of interest and it stuck. It doesn't actually make the traddie any better a musician at the end of the road - funny that, isn't it ?
Consider; what do you call someone who grew up listening to folk music from their parents and friends ? Like my son and daughter. Children of revivalists. One isn't interested ( must have been that wet week at Sidmouth). One pinched my japanese acoustic, got me to build her an electric, can tootle on the whistle a bit, likes the Battlefield Band and the Oyster Band. ( And Lou Reed, Alice Cooper, loads of other stuff.)
This really is a daft question because the answer is either every musician is a traditional musician, or that there are only maybe a handful left in the entire world; a couple in Mongolia say and two or three in Bolivia.
The question Jack defines is "cultural discipline'. But he says that this can only be traditional if the discipline is geographically localized. This is, of course, plain daft.
All musics on this planet have evolved through generations, whether localized or travelled. To make a distinction is worse than pointless, it's device.
People learn music from other people, that's just the way it happens. Occasionally, some plucky individuals make personal lasting contributions, but basically it's all just culture. And to try to define it within national boundaries is fraught with danger. For example, just you go and try to define Ireland's national boundaries
I'm sorry you think it a daft question Michael, and that Jack's opinion is also daft, although with 27 replies to date obviously some people think it's worth discussing
What you seem to be saying echoes Louis Armstrong's famous definition of fok music: 'all music's folk music; leastways, I ain't never heard no horse singing', or something like that. A good soundbite, but I'm not sure if it holds water.
Still, you'll be pleased to know I for one don't judge your view to be daft. I just disagree with it.
Daft eh? Michael, you have a penchant for wanting to find things in what people say to call them "daft," but in this case you read the daft part into it yourself. I never said that the discipline had to be physically located in the country of origin. Obviously there are Irish musicians in America, for example, but the music is considered Irish and not American. There are Indian musicians living in, say... England, but the music is still considered to be Indian. And before you call me daft for saying that the musicians themselves have to be from the same country the music is from... I never said that either.
I think that through the19th and 20th centuries that many Irish and Irish descendents survived severe harship through their music, or at least it was a great sense of roots and support. Technically, many non Irish or Irish descendants can play the music, and it is good to spread appreciation of the art form. But the guts of it is feeling and respecting the hardship that generated the music. How many people can play the music with feeling, bring a tear to the eye, and feel, yes I am Irish or feel those are my roots and I'm damn proud of it?
See that goes down with saying you have to be Irish to truly play Irish music. And I believe that's daft.
There are people who have come to Irish or other types of traditional music after suffering severe hardship in their own lives and I believe that they invoke those same feelings. There are also those in direct descendance of those who suffered during the times you mentioned whose playing is flat and emotionless.
Appreciating the hardships, understanding the hardships goes beyond having Irish blood in your veins. Many people play the music with feeling and bring tears to peoples eyes who are not Irish by blood or anything.
"But the guts of it is feeling and respecting the hardship that generated the music. How many people can play the music with feeling, bring a tear to the eye, and feel, yes I am Irish or feel those are my roots and I'm damn proud of it?"
The people that can't can always use this as an excuse... unless they're Irish that is.
Sorry Jack, it wasn't clear what I was saying. When I said "the discipline is geographically localized", what I meant was, "the origins of the discipline is geographically localized."
You make the definition as:
A "cultural discipline" may be deemed to be traditional if the origins of it can be said to be "specific to one country's culture".
You rule out "classical" because "it's an international musical language and discipline". You would say that its origins are European and so non specific to a particular country. And the reason I say this is a daft notion is that you cannot define in cultural terms what a country is. Though the origins of the concept of countries lie in a mixture of geographical isolation and spoken language, they have existed for some considerable time now as merely political boundaries and culture has always transcended these. And there are few cultures better at transcending these boundaries than music, precisely because it transcends spoken language.
You may think I'm splitting hairs here, but this is very important.
Above I had simply replied, "I am" to the question of who is a traditional musician. I now find myself compelled to explain. If pressed, I would not say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish. If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere, in addition to material grown here at home. I have heard real Irish traditional musicians, and am not accomplished enough in the genre and style to presume to that title. Traditional because I play acoustic instruments, more often than not unamplified, and play and sing material that I mostly heard other people singing and playing live, rather than that I heard on records (or CDs or MP3s). The identity of the authors of what I sing and play have more often than not been lost over time, but I don't turn my nose up at a good Dougie MacLean, Tommy Makem, Tommy Sands or Stan Rogers song just because they wrote them fairly recently. I feel more comfortable with the tag 'trad' than 'folkie,' because around here, folkies tend to be singer/songwriters who often have a leftie political agenda, more oriented toward song than instrumental music.
Don't know if that muddies the water, but there it is....
Yep, it does muddy the water. And good on you, for that is the point I'm making. It's all way way too grey to be talking in absolutes of what is, or is not.
Well, yes Jack. If you accept the concept of the definition of traditional music as having a country of origin. But it is precicely that definition that I question, on two counts. Firstly, I don't believe in countries. Secondly, The origins of a tradition can not be pinned down so specifically.
It's probable that bagpipes in some form or other originated in the Middle East. The fiddle in the shape and tuning it is used today is certainly mid European. And what of the diddley music itself? How much of "traditional Irish music" came from Northern Ireland? Do you want to argue that the Northern Irish are Irish, rather than British? How much of it came from Scotland? Weren't reels English? Who first discovered the relationships between octaves, fifths and fourths? Wasn't it the Greeks? Who first counted to four? Wasn't it the Africans?
I dunno the answers to any of these questions, I'm surmising, But I tell you what, you give me a list of things that define Irish music and tell me they are Irish. (or is that the West of Ireland? Or the Mid West? Or is it that little village 22 miles south south east of Sligo?
Actually, there's traditional music that I associate with geographical rather than political locations. Traditional music I would recognize as Andean is originating in an area associated with a mountain range rather than a particular country. Bolivia and Peru are two political geographic areas I would relate to this. Also, gamelan music comes from an island region that includes both Bali and Java, so I don't think that traditional music needs to have a political geographic area necessarily. But music I would recognize as ITM is specifically originating in a geographic area that is distinguished by its political boundaries, both the Northern and the Republic. ITM has a definite association with this country that's included in the name. Irish traditional music has its roots firmly planted in Ireland. Irish music isn’t associated with any other country.
Even though the instruments are mostly originating from North Africa, and the tune structures, and even names, are from Europe -- the style and sound is distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar with Irish traditional music will make no mistake as to where it originated. It might get it confused with Scottish music on occasion, but the Scots are really just themselves Irish immigrants.
Jack, one thought occurs to me when I read this from you - "Anyone familiar with Irish traditional music will make no mistake as to where it originated."
.........& it is this:
What about the music Liz Carroll plays?
When you hear that, do you think of Ireland?
Cause I must admit, when I hear Liz Carroll play I immediately think of America, cause I have yet to hear her play anything which sounded really & truly Irish!
Paddy Glackin had her on RTE one time & she played a couple of tunes, her own I think, & then she said, OK now I'm going to play two real Irish tunes from Clare, but what she played made me think that the Clare she was referring to must have been a district of Chicago!
She is a brilliant musician & a brilliant Violinist & Fiddle player - but not 'Irish' surely?
Oh yes MG, when you wrote:
"Firstly, I don't believe in countries."
- three cheers Sir. I'm right behind you there me old mucker.
e.g. - I used to be proud of Sean Connery cause he was born in my home town of Edinburgh & we both worked as Milkman there for a while, but then I discovered he was a blasted Scottish Nationalist!
Me - I'm a fat man of the World.
I just happened to be born in Scotland.
I trust that one day there will be no borders & there will be only one, Unitarian type religion.
Either that, or we will all go back to Voodoo, which is a derivative of the world's oldest known religions & has been around in Africa since the beginning of human civilization. You can't get more traditional than that now, can you?
Well, Dick, I think when Liz Carroll sits down to play Irish traditional music -- no one that is familiar with ITM will think it's from Ethiopia. Sure Liz takes liberties on her original stuff, but the style of music she's working with is never in question.
If you listen to the mp3s on my profile page do you think it sounds like San Francisco music? Maybe we aren't the best exponents of ITM, but again, anyone familiar with that genre won’t be mistaken.
When I first heard gamelan music I thought it was from another planet. I then found out it was from Bali and Java -- now I associate it with those regions. When I first heard Andean music I knew it was from South America, but now I associate it with a particular geographic region. That's what happens when you get familiar with a music genre. The same happens with Irish music.
Now tell me what country Riverdance music is from? Answer -- several. It's derivative of folk music from 4 or 5 different countries. It is not traditional music, but it’s based on traditional music. The musicians playing it are disciplined in Irish traditional music. They are traditional musicians... most of them. The music is fusion. You could also call them fusion musicians, but most of them have studied and are accomplished traditional players. Therefore they are indeed “traditional musicians” as well.
So how come what you call "traditional Irish Music" is not derivative of several different countries?
And, OK, so we associate cetain genres of music with specific global regions, even though we know that their origins are far more wide spread. And you say that if you can do this, then you can call it traditional music. That takes us back to classical music. The Andies is a bigger place than Europe, so why is Andean music traditional though classical not?
My point is that very argument that is turned to in defence of what is called traditional is riddled with inconsistencies. So why don't we just call it music and have done with it?
The answer to this is that, unfortunatly, humans hanker after belonging. Its the tribal instinct.
'The answer to this is that, unfortunately, humans hanker after belonging. It's the tribal instinct.'
Then why fight it?
Anyway, the question was about the musicians rather than the music. A few years ago we used to see these buskers round some of the Kent towns - they were probably in London too. They were obviously South American, in terms of facial appearance, dress and, of course, music. They would play this amazingly ethereal stuff with panpipes, wire-strung armadillos et al. I looked at them thinking: wow, these are the real thing.
Then they were featured in a newspaper article. Turns out they were all students at the Royal College of Music (or Royal Academy: I can't remember which).
I didn't think any less of their music, nor indeed of them. But I couldn't think of them as the real thing traditional musicians anymore. A little bit of the magic wore off.
That magic, which'll take a different form for each of us, goes beyond the actual notes being produced, or maybe takes those notes further than expected. I mean, when I hear, say, Matt Molloy playing the Humours of Ballyloughlin I'm transported back to some kind of primaeval past, misty, wet, grey-green and druidic or even pre--druidic. Now, I'm fairly certain that iron age settlers weren't playing six part double jigs. It's just that magic can do that to you.
Part of that magic, for me, is the image, real or imagined, or more likely a bit of each, of the traditional musician. I don't think it changes the music. We can all learn to play. I don't agree that you can only REALLY play if you've suffered the hardships inherent, or supposedly inherent, in that wider cultural tradition. I don't think I could listen to two fiddle players and know which one has just been evicted and which one has just started a well paid job. A lion in a zoo and a lion on the Serengeti are equally capable of ripping your goolies off! But one of them has that little bit of magic, the real thing.
My god. I've just read through what I've written. Rambling or what. I've just had an operation. I think the painkillers and the sleepless nights are having their effect. I think I'll go for a shower.
Ah ha. Now we are getting down to the nitty gritty. We know that at the end of the day it doesn't matter where you are from. We know that it doesn't matter where the music is from. Yet we fill our heads with romantic nonsence of made up history. Pre-druidic indeed. Druids are bloody Victorian.
Time to get real I say and appreciate it for what it is. Abstract
Fvcking about with words, is what this is. One finger up your @rse and the other hand on the keyboard. We've been here so many times before, but I s'pose it's the newbies turn. At the end of the day after various disagreements and refining some point till it's needle sharp, ye'll all just say, who cares, just play the bliddy stuff.
Don't confuse nations and states--something I learned in International Relations studies. Nations are groups of people who share common language and culture. States are artificial constructs of law and governance. And much of the sadness in the world comes when those political and cultural boundaries do not match--northern Ireland, Middle East, Kashmir, etc. Musical styles arise out of nations, not states.
Oooh don't set me off again. Nations my @rse. You mean like the Nation of Islam? Danger danger AAROOOOGAA.
You think what you describe as Nations are are not constructs also? You think that just because the island of Ireland is an island, that makes the Irish nationalists right? Come on now. It's precisely because there is no inherant difference between nations, states and countries that all the violence happens
Yep, Michael. I agree. But I suspect you mean "republicans" not simply nationalists, when speaking about Ireland, or maybe you're speaking broadly. My take is that in the Irish model, Catholic people were almost forced into their nationalism due to constant protestant bigotry and discrimination. Sweeping statement I know but I'm doing so to paint an overall picture.
Thats right. And "The nation of Israel" is a similar case. This Country/Nation was set up after conciderably more than a bit of bigotry and discrimination, only to create another set of disposessed. But it's good to see that where the Palastinians and the Isralies get on best is when they play music together.
Hey Jack, I don't think you guys over there are any better or any worse than ITM players in Ireland or Scotland or England or Japan. I'm just fascinated by the subtle differences that can be heard in the playing styles from each area.
Al said "Musical styles arise out of nations, not states." & Danny added "...or counties" & I would like to add towns & villages & even townlands, cause one man's very appealing style of playing can generate a very distinctive playing style in a small area, when it is adopted by other local musicians & is different from the style down the road.
At the end of the day we are all musicians.
When I play an Irish reel, I am a musician who is playing traditional Irish music, but that simple act doesn't suddenly make me a traditional Irish musician.
When I turn round & play a Strathspey I am a musician who is playing Scottish traditional music, but I am not suddenly & miraculously turned into a traditional Scottish musician.
I could then turn round & play a classical piece of music but I am simply a musician playing a piece of classical music.
I am a musician & I like playing music.
I don't feel I am controlled by this tribal instinct Michael mentioned.
I don't need to be in 'the club', in other words - "I don't need no stinkin' badges."
Good man. And that's what I meant I said when I said, admittedly facetiously, "or is that the West of Ireland? Or the Mid West? Or is it that little village 22 miles south south east of Sligo?"
Unfortunately though, for some people (Kerry springs to mind), being in the club is more important than the music.
Nope, sorry, fraid I just don't see it that way at all Jack.
Going back to the nationality thingy, I was born a Scot, so I'll always be a Scot & it doesn't really matter that I have lived almost as long in Ireland as in Scotland.
I could in fact live here another 30 years & develop & strong Irish brogue & acquire an Irish passport but I will NEVER, EVER be an Irishman - I'll always be a Scot!
I can buy an instrument & learn to play it so can become a musician but unless I am born into a tradition I can never call myself of that tradition.
I am happy to be able to think of myself as a musician who plays traditional Irish music.
I play a few dozen French & Breton tunes but I would just laugh out loud if someone thought I was a Breton musician.
The truth is, the way I play, I'm probably flattering myself even to think of myself as a musician at all!
So quite honestly, I wouldn't wish to insult genuine 'Traditional Musicians' by being presumptuous enough to call myself one!
I'm just having a whale of a time playing their music, I don't need to wear the T Shirt!
"And if he knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes that would make him a traditional Andean musician?"
No, but it wouldn't change the fact that he's a traditional musician either. Now if Dick had studied traditional music from the Andes and played it all the time, then you might say he's a "traditional Andean musician." But what seems to be happening on this thread is that people want to consider themselves simply as "musicians." That's true, and I have no issue with that, but someone might ask, "What kind of music does he play?" If you answered, "Well, he plays Irish and Scottish traditional music." Then the conclusion will be that he's a traditional musician who plays those styles. If you added something like, "Oh, and he plays classical, jazz, blues, and can knock out a mean version of "El Condor Pasa" on plastic panpipes." Then the impression will be that he's a versatile musician that can play a lot of different styles – including trad. If someone was going to put together a trad group that played music from Scotland and Ireland and was looking for traditional musicians... you could suggest Dick to them. If they said, "I'm looking for traditional musicians." you could say he was indeed a traditional musician. If someone wanted to put together an Andean trad group and was looking for musicians, you wouldn't tell them Dick is their man because he knows one tune on his plastic panpipes. But if Dick had seriously studied Andean music and owned a set of zamponias, you could say, "I know a guy who plays Andean trad." If they asked if he was from the Andes you would say “no” and tell them he's from Belfast, but that wouldn't disqualify him as an Andean trad musician if that was something he seriously studied.
We have a fellow here in SF who's an expert player of Andean music and performs professionally. He's a traditional Andean musician -- from Sweden.
It’s a lot like quantum physics, innit? Nothing absolute, everything ultimately describable only as a probability, try to examine a single particle too closely and it vanishes into an abstraction.
So Dick, are you suggesting that to be considered a "traditional musician" you have to be born in and have the correct genealogy of the country where the music you're playing comes from?
No, not at all Jack. There are many excellent Irish Traditional musicians who have grown up in countries which are far, far away from the shamrock shore, but for me, the all important factor is that they have grown up 'in the tradition', i.e. had Irish parent or parents who exposed them to the music all through their growing years.
They grew up with ITM as an integral part of their every day life and for them to listen to ITM was as natural to them as breathing or eating.
They learned to play as they grew up, perhaps taught by their parents or perhaps by outside tutors, but encouraged & coaxed along by their parents who loved & appreciated the music & could relate to it & relate it back to Ireland & things Irish.
Thus, a child could have one Irish parent & one Andean parent, but if they are brought up in the manner described above, then to my way of thinking they could class themselves as Traditional Musicians.
michael,
The "nation" and "state" thing is simply a way that people in the field of international relations look at issues. And, for better or worse, people who have a common language, religion, and customs tend to stick together with each other more than they do with outsiders. As you stated, however, that concept, and the term 'nation' has been abused by those with political agendas, axes to grind, etc.
Happily for us, musicians, as people have pointed out above, the differences in musical culture more often than not seem to produce reactions more like "that was cool and different, how did you do that?" than "you worship differently, so I want to exterminate you."
I don't know though Al. The way some of the arguments have raged on here, I'd say we've been pretty close to acts of extermination, more than a couple of times!
So Dick, are you suggesting that "traditional musicians" have to, 1) have the correct genealogy and ethnicity, 2) have at least one parent from the country that the music comes from, 3) has to have learned the music as a child and, 4) has to have grown up with all of these circumstances?
Jack the Anorak,
I can think of a number of people who I consider Irish trad musicans par excellence who do not fit that criteria, which I suspect, is your point. The first one who comes to mind is an Italian guy from New York my wife took fiddle lessons from one year in the Catskills, I think his name was DeMarco.
Ok, I don't know where Dick is now, but I'm sure he'll get back to us on this.
I've been thinking about what Dick seems to have suggested here and it has raised a few questions here for me.
There's a fellow living in town here who's from Ireland, grew up in a musical family there, but didn't take up playing Irish traditional music until he immigrated here. He is now an excellent player after having been at it for the past 10 years or so. Is he a "traditional Irish musician"?
There's a couple of other fellows from Ireland who didn't grow up in musical families, but just like the first fellow I mentioned, they took up Irish traditional music after immigrating and now also play quite well. Are they not "traditional Irish musicians"?
Then there's someone like myself who has studied Irish traditional music since the early 80s and now I play it exclusively, and my playing is on par with the other people just mentioned here. Am I not a "traditional Irish musician" too?
So to be a "traditional musician" you have to yourself be "of the tradition" which, if I understand it correctly from what's said here, means you have to be the correct ethnicity and or born in the country where the music is from, or if not actually in that country you must be raised by at least one parent who was born in that country, and you have to have played since you were a child?
Hasn't changed my opinion either. Because I don't believe that you have to have been raised in Ireland, or by Irish parents, or by an Irish parent, or by any family member with Irish blood to be a traditional Irish musician.
And I'm definitely glad that we didn't open a can of worms. . .
2. used to describe older styles of jazz, usually played by small ensembles featuring clarinet, trumpet, trombone, and rhythm sections.
~~~
Now here, they used jazz as an example, but any ethnic music will work just as well. For the sake of this website, lets use Irish music as our example.
Now then, if we're talking about "older styles" that would mean music that's developed in Ireland over a considerable amount of time. I would consider that amount of time to mean over several generations. ITM has been developing for this long and has been handed down through the generations. It has also existed in other countries in Irish communities for generations and has been handed down there as well. In those locations outside of Ireland it's still considered to be "Irish music" and more specifically "traditional Irish music." If you removed the word "traditional" it would widen the meaning to embrace other modern styles of music played in Ireland and or modern music that relies on Irish elements for it's sound i.e. Celtic Rock. But when you include the word "traditional" it refers to the music that is unique to Ireland and has developed over many generations.
Now if someone plays Celtic Rock -- they're a Celtic Rock musician regardless of their birthplace, ethnicity, or how they were raised. If someone plays Irish traditional music -- they're traditional Irish musicians regardless of the same things I just mentioned. To be a musician who plays traditional Irish music and not be considered a “traditional Irish musician” simply because you aren't the right ethnicity, weren't born in Ireland or raised by at least one Irish parent and you haven't played since you were a child... that would be, as Michael Gill would say -- daft.
We cross-posted, David. If a tradition or style of music truly dies out and, after a long period of not being played, is then resurrected. It will get a label that refers to the time when it was played, i.e. “Renaissance music.”
I'm afraid I don't, Jack. I'm a musician who plays traditional music. I'd love to have been a traditional musician, but I'm not, no matter how hard I try, or how deeply I study the tradition. I thought I was the one with the romantic ideas ...
Although you disagreed earlier with Michael, as I did, I suppose you see traditional music as any other musical genre - abstract was his word. That way traditional musician and player of traditional music can be synonymous.
Doesn't mean that if I were to find myself in SF I wouldn't want to be your friend!
"And I certainly wouldn't call myself a traditional player of Irish music, either. Perhaps a player of traditional Irish music, at a pinch."
So I can just imagine how the conversation would go if I saw things the same way.
~~~
1st person: "Do you play music?"
Me: "yes."
1st person: "Really... what kind?"
Me: "Irish traditional music."
1st person: "Cool... I like that stuff."
(1st person's friend enters the room)
1st person to friend: "This is Jack, I just found out he's a traditional Irish musician."
Friend: "Cool! That's great music."
Me: "Uh, I'm not actually a traditional Irish musician."
1st person to me: "excuse me?"
Me; "I said I'm not really a traditional Irish musician."
1st person: "But didn't you just tell me that's what you played?"
Me: "Well, yes, but like I said, I'm not a traditional Irish musician."
Friend: "What kind of music do you play then?"
Me: "Irish traditional music."
(1st person and his friend look at each other)
Me: "No, you see, if I was born in Ireland or at least one of my parents was, and I grew up listening to Irish music since I was a child, and was taught ever since childhood by my parents or an Irish person, who had to also have been born in Ireland -- well then I would be a traditional Irish musician."
1st person: "Uh... I'm sorry, I must not have heard you right. What kind of music do you play agian?"
A musician is a person who plays music. A 'player of music' is a musician. A classical musician plays classical music, a traditional musician plays traditional music. I know, people say that classical musicians don't play traditional music right and vice versa. But a person who plays traditional music primarily or exclusively is a traditional musician. In this case we would reference a traditional Irish musician. Besides - I never want to have the conversation Jack mentioned, even though I think I would like to print it out and frame it.
Maybe the query of this thread should have been: "Is there only one way to become a traditional Irish musician?" or, "Do you have to be Irish to be a traditional Irish musiciian?" or perhaps it could just be an informative thread: "Why were are not traditional Irish musicians."
Yes a 'music' is different than a 'musician'. But is a 'musician' different from a 'player of music'?
I don't believe so. If you play music than you are a musician. Dropping all of the confincing terms like traditional, classical, etc leaves us with a 'player of music' and a 'musician' and I'm not seeing any difference. Textbook defintion of a musician is a composer, conductor, or performer (read player) of music. So a musician and a player of music are the same.
Ok, we'll restart the definition. How am I missing the point?
A musician is a player of music.
A traditional musician is a musician and traditional music is music.
Therefore:
A traditional musician is a player of traditional music.
So where is the point that I'm missing? And you're the one who removed the parameters of traditional when you asked me if a music was the same thing as a musician.
Am I coming across as too serious? I'm just trying to be clear. Maybe I need to use more smiley emoticons.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate as long as we don't start telling each other we're "daft" or "ruining the music for generations to come" etc.
I think there might be a label you can place on someone who is fortunate enough to be raised in Ireland, in a musical family with flesh and blood humans available to hand the music down to them, but I don't know what that label would be. "Traditional Irish musician" doesn’t define that particular aspect for me.
I know some very good traditional Irish musicians living in Ireland all their life who learned the music pretty much the same way I did by listening to CDs and going to sessions. Granted their sessions were better and more abundant than the ones I could find in my own neck of the woods, but that wouldn't draw a line between us that allowed them the distinction and deprived me or others like me of the same.
When you give a definition of something like "traditional Irish musician" a definition that draws it's lines along ethnic and geographical boundaries it smacks of racism and prejudice. I don't think becoming a traditional Irish musician happens over night or can be sent away for in the post, but anyone who puts in the time and effort to understand and play it with deep affection deserves the distinction as much as Irish-born and raised people do IMHO.
I'm enjoying it. I like hearing all the different definitions. A musician born and raised by Irish parents in Ireland with an instrument (or two) in their hands are "Born and raised Irish in Ireland been playing Irish music since I was a babe traditional Irish musician'
And I'm sure that we're all daft and ruining everything. Yep. Definitely.
(I used lots of smilies so that you wouldn't think that I was being serious.)
Oh, as to the last sentence about playing the music with the affection and distinction as those people who understand where the music came from and under what circumstances it was originally played - that person has acheived amazing-hood in traditional Irish music.
Hoping to clear up musicfan's confusion, I'll foolishly step into the fray. "Traditional" is an adjective. It can modify two nouns: the musician, or the music that the musician plays. These are, arguably, different. A traditional musician is one whose interaction with the music is in line with the traditions of his or her native or adopted culture. A musician who plays traditional music is one whose repertoire includes music played (now or in the past) by traditional musicians of some culture, not necessarily his or her own.
So a traditional musician is now defined by someone's birth or adopted culture? Leading us back to the born and raised etc. stuff I wrote about earlier? I just don't buy that. A traditional musician is a person who plays traditional music.
Thanks for the grammar lesson, Gary, but it doesn't clear up the main thrust of the thread, for me anyway.
In your first contribution to this thread you said: "Is someone who dabbles in traditional music but mostly plays other things a traditional musician? Not in my book."
I would agree with this because the notion that they "dabble" would be like Gord's early summation in this thread that if Dick "knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes" it wouldn't make him a traditional musician. But in your latest elucidation you leave the parameters open for what someone's "interaction with the music" might be when you add "adopted" as an acceptable alternative to "his or her native culture."
My question is, where do you draw the line between what is or isn't "adopted," and what constitutes an "interaction with the music" that would be considered "traditional"?
For anyone who missed this thread, here is a summary of the way 'the realists' [] see this -
I said:
"I am a musician cause I play musical instruments.
I only play traditional music so I think of myself as a musician who plays traditional music." - nothing more!
Gords said:
"I think I'm a player of traditional music." - I'm sure you are sir.
Al said:
"If pressed, I would not say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish.
If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere,"
MG said:
"humans hanker after belonging. Its the tribal instinct." - guess that means that Jack must just be that tad more 'primitive' than the rest of us then
Gords said:
"And if he knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes that would make him a traditional Andean musician?" - yeah I agree man, it seems a daft notion to me too, I think we should all just be honoured enough to be able to think of ourselves as simply musicians.
However I said:
"I don't feel I am controlled by this tribal instinct Michael mentioned.
I don't need to be in 'the club', in other words - "I don't need no stinkin' badges."...."
- but if Jack does, that's OK by me.
At the end of all this banter, he will still cling to his belief that he is a Traditional Irish Musician & I'll be forever content to think of myself as a musician, & one who just happens to play mostly Irish Traditional Music.
That man of the cloth said:
"If I learned to speak French, I wouldn't describe myself as a native French speaker, no matter how fluent I got." - I liked that one, it kind of summed it all up, for me.
So no matter how good a player I become, I'll never be able to think of myself as a Traditional Irish Musician.
He also said:
"'A traditional musician is a player of traditional music', a musician who plays traditional music is not necessarily a traditional musician..................................... " - aye, 'nough said really.
Jack said:
"If pressed, I would 'not' say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish. If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere," - must agree with you Al, makes perfect sense to me too.
I said - "I am just happy if people think of me as a musician!"
If you just arrived, I bet your very sad that you missed this particular 'merry go round' - !@£$%
By the way Gords, CONGRATS on reaching your century with this thread - perhaps they should think of drafting you onto the England Cricket Team, where a century is a very rare beastie indeed!
Thanks for the edited highlights Ptarmigan. It sounds like you're drawing this little chat to a close. Shame, I was only just getting warmed up!
Some of my contributions have, I freely admit, been extremely subjective, romanticised imaginings. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Indeed, I think it's quite healthy.
I was going to say something about how Jack and Musicfan are applying a kind of Turing test: if it sounds like a traditional musician then it is a traditional musician. A bit like if Civil War reenactors (choose your own civil war) reenact the war so well they're no longer reenactors but Civil War veterans! I suppose I won't get the chance now.
This thread has helped me a lot. I wasn't being disingenuous early on when I said I wasn't really sure. Now I'm much more sure, although it's still difficult to put it into words, as some, quite legitimately, will find objections.
I've also been called names and been patronised. I'm pleased with myself that I didn't respond in kind, something I've always been prone to. No, this has been interesting and fun. And bejaysus (surely that little expletive confirms me as being of the tradition ) didn't it run?
"And bejaysus (surely that little expletive confirms me as being of the tradition ) ........" - No Gords, actually, it justs makes the rest of us think that you probably look a bit like this, in real life:
It's interesting how folks seem to think I'm in this discussion just to secure my right to the title, "traditional Irish musician" or "Irish traditional musician." It's not about me, but rather the concept that I'm talking about. If we remove our egos from the topic for a moment then all we're doing is defining what a musician, (we can all agree we're musicians,) who plays ITM would be referred to as. There's a strong notion on this thread that our involvement in ITM deserves no identity or clarification beyond simply "musician," because of circumstances we have no control over. But isn't that really just a denial of the particular music we're playing?
I get the impression that most people in this discussion are primarily into ITM. (In my case that's definitely so.) If someone asked me what kind of music I play -- I'd tell them ITM. I don't play any other kind of music at this stage with the exception of the odd Breton, Galician, Scottish or Pakistani novelty piece. If I were to explain what sort of musician I was, it would have to include ITM in the description as the main, and for all intents and purposes, the exclusive element. There are two ways I can think of that wouldn't sound uncertain or insecure about what sort of music I specialize in. Those two would be, "Irish traditional musician" or "traditional Irish musician." I think it would sound strange if I gave the answer something like, "I’m a musician who specializes in traditional Irish music." If I said that people would probably think to themselves, "Oh, he's a “traditional Irish musician”... why didn't he just say that?" (See my short 1 act play a dozen or so comments back.)
It’s true that there are different ways to become a “musician who specializes in ITM,” and some are more “traditional” than others, but to draw lines along genealogical and geographical lines is discriminatory and exclusive. When I look through this thread I’ll find statements like this, “Someone whose repertoire comes from a particular tradition is a traditional musician.” And then the same person will say, “I learned to love this music with a passion, but only started playing it in my twenties, so I will never, in my book, really be what I think of as a traditional musician.” And then later on down the thread will draw a line in the sand by saying, “I can buy an instrument & learn to play it so can become a musician but unless I am born into a tradition I can never call myself of that tradition.” And then finally he has demoted himself to the basement of ITM by declaring, “So quite honestly, I wouldn't wish to insult genuine 'Traditional Musicians' by being presumptuous enough to call myself one!”
(Sorry Dick, I’m not picking on you. It’s just that your conceptual development here perfectly illustrates the quandary.)
Jack, I've enjoyed this thread immensely. I genuinely did not really know my own mind on this at the start, but now I've come much closer. You've been tremendously helpful with your contributions, as has the Ptarmigan, Ecumenical et al. The fact that I happen to disagree with you matters not a jot - the discussion, in the main, has been intelligent and well mannered. I daresay it's been helpful to you too, helping you to elucidate, for yourself and others, your thoughts on the subject. I don't think you presumptuous describing yourself as a traditional Irish musician, and I doubt Dick does. According to your thinking it's perfectly OK to describe yourself as a traditional Irish musician, and I suppose you'd think it OK for Dick or I or anyone else on the session to do so (or would you have to hear us all first?)! What would be presumptuous would be for me to describe myself as a traditional Irish musician after making it pretty clear that to my way of thinking I can't be!
Hmm. I haven't enjoyed it. At all. I read a fair bit and scrolled down the rest of it. It literally made me feel a bit queasy. I'm not joking. And I know it's a bit of fun argy-bargy "you said that and he said this, and I'm right and your wrong" load of bollox, but there's alot of underlying tension going on, that I'm uncomfortable with. Michael Gill and I get into healthy scraps quite often, but it seems we both backed off here, sniffing the unhealthy whiff of overcharged egos clashing head on for no other reason than to charge head on. So work away guys. Whatever gets you off.
Funny thing Danny, the words Kettle, Black & Pot popped into my mind as I read your last friendly post.
Anyway, I sense that perhaps the 'underlying tension' in your own comments were due to the fact that we here, were able to keep our discussion on a friendly basis & we didn't sink to the base level of slagging one another off, sniping & insulting each other.
Some folks seem to get off on those head bashing, name calling, excursions back to the playground, but I think we here, managed to maintain an air of civilised debate.
So after this long discussion, we seem to have reached an amicable settlement, where we all agree to disagree & have all gone down the virtual pub for a virtual pint and a few virtual tunes.
Far more satisfactory I would say, than virtual bloody noses, don't you think?
Yep, P'raps your right, Dick. War-weary, or the genteel online equivalent. If ever you're in London, or me in Antrim, let's swap tunes rather than punches. I'm sure you'd agree...you'd beat me anyway (on either score)
1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style
To a greater of lesser extent I believe everyone here to be a traditional musician according to at least one of the 4 defintions above.
So here's a new question. Many well respected ITM musicians learned from written transcriptions and recordings. Does that negate them as being traditional musicians according to definition 2?
I would say this "new" method of learning has been going on for quite some time now. Many Irish musicians, including Seamus Ennis, learned tunes
out of O'Neill's and many have learned from recordings since the advent of 78's.
It IS in part "characteristic" of the "manner, method or style" of learning this music and thus fits the 4th definition of tradition.
The definition of traditional is evolving just like the music itself.
May I join this rather facile argument.
I play traditional music - Irish fiddle.
I am most definitely not a traditional musician.
I know people who are traditional musicians (by birth, heritage, upbringing, way of life, etc) and they also play traditional music - by definition. They don't have to be very good at it and indeed, some are not.
But it doesn't, in my humble opinion, work the other way round. I just play the music 'cos I like it and it's the best for "folk" music on the fiddle.
That certainly narrows it down. You can play any fiddle music there is then? Nice. Now remember, there are loads of different kinds out there. I like Gypsy fiddle personally... do you play that? How about Mariachi? Oh wait... hold the presses... I just read your post before my last one and you say you play only Irish fiddle... hmmm. I'm assuming you're talking about Irish traditional fiddling... right? So let's see, what kind of fiddler might you be? Would you prefer the long definition, or the one everyone will think to themselves after you've finished saying it?
No, David, I'm amused by it more than anything. People get so caught up in the term that they can't even answer a simple question about what they're doing without going into a litany of cumbersome explanations.
Far, far back during the time before - or perhaps even before that - somewhere, probably not Ireland... or even Nashville, a lone chimpanzee sat in a jungle, beating a rock on a hollow log. Looking for termites, he was. But, the sound and rhythm of his beating mystified him, and soon he forgot his hunger and became mesmerized. Another chimp, from out on the plains, hearing the sound - also being fascinated - came running to see, and was soon beating out his own tune with a stick. The session was born! And, the argument started: Was the first chimp the true traditionalist, or was the second? He was using a stick, the other, a rock. One was from the jungle - the other... Eons later...... and the beat goes on. Thank goodness.
Who or what is a traditional musician?
Who or what is a traditional musician?
And is it different to 'a player of traditional music'?
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Nope, not in my opinion. No difference. A traditional musician is a person who plays traditional music.So there's the who. . .
As to the what . . .I've heard rumors, but those are probably best left untouched. . .
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
A player of traditional music.
Hang on, was there a hidden catch?
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I once started a discussion to the effect that there "may" be a difference between a musician and a player. The overall consensus was that we could all be described as musicians, albeit some of us were better than others.
So, this question is fairly straightforward.
If the Q was "Who or what is a *folk* musician?", then this would really open up a can of worms!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
That's a very complicated question, mostly because the word "music" is extremely ambiguous. Music incorporates many different aspects (melody, harmony, rhythm, meter, tempo, improvisation, ornamentation, instrumentation, arrangement, contexts in which it's played, etc.) Which of these aspects have to be traditional in order to call something "traditional music"? Which of these aspects have to be traditional in order to call it "traditional playing"? Are these the same? I doubt it.
Is someone who dabbles in traditional music but mostly plays other things a traditional musician? Not in my book. I think a traditional musician would be one who is totally immersed in a particular tradition. For example, I met a young Cape Breton fiddler at 4 AM at a very eclectic session in Sharon Shannon's apartment at the Celtic Colours festival a few years ago who wouldn't take out her fiddle because all she knew was Cape Breton music. Someone who chooses repertoire because it is "traditional" is a traditionalist. Someone whose repertoire comes from a particular tradition is a traditional musician.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I choose music because I like it, nor can I imagine not at least having a go at any type of music.
Music is not exclusionary.
KFG
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by KFG
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I agree KFG. I'm a traditional musician. I'm also a classical musician. I play more than one kind of traditional music, but I'm still a traditional musician.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Interesting thread this - I must admit, the slant I have on it, in my wee brain is that:
I am a musician cause I play musical instruments.
I only play traditional music so I think of myself as a musician who plays traditional music.
However, a traditional musician to me, is someone who is born into a traditional music environment, who grows up with traditional music as part of their life, in a traditional music family & learns to play from an early age, whether that's in some wee but 'n ben in West Clare, or in a musical family in the heart of London, Chicago or Sydney.
So it is as natural for them as breathing.
I learned to love this music with a passion, but only started playing it in my twenties, so I will never, in my book, really be what I think of as a traditional musician.
But hey, what's in a name.
Doesn't stop me enjoying da music!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Traditionally, musicians play music. Some musicians play traditional music.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I have to admit, this is a question I've asked myself a few times over the past thirty-odd years, without really being able to answer it. Just as explaining what is traditional music is notoriously difficult, so too is explaining what is a traditional musician. The later, to me, evokes certain images: a poor cottage in the west of Ireland; fiddle hanging in the kitchen; playing for self and friends; no question of arrangement, perforance or PA.
When Martin Carthy went to see old Sam Larner, or listened to field recordings of Joseph Taylor, he considered them the traditional singers and himself a revivalist of traditional song.
An outsider looking in.
However, times and traditions change. Are the images in my head no more than romanticisations? Do they show what is or what I imagine is? I really don't know. But probably.
I've been playing traditional music for a long time. Do I feel I'm a traditional musician? No, not really. Except that, for most of that time I've played only for myself and anyone who might be in the room. My instruments may hang on the wall, but certainly not in the kitchen: they're far too expensive to get covered in grease and crap.
I have this feeling that traditional musicians are born into it. It's a native rather than an adopted culture. I got into trad in 1971 after hearing Fairport Convention play Flatback Caper. Not quite the same thing.
I think traditional music and playing is part of a much wider culture which goes far beyond playing jigs and reels. I am not of that culture. I'm a Londoner (and proud of it, guvnor!) to Cockney and Yorkshire farming parents. None of my family had any interest in ... well, anything much. I came to the music because I loved it, and still do. I think I'm a player of traditional music.
But I'm not sure.
Still, I won't let it keep me awake
Gordon
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
BTW John J. That's a much easier one for me. Folk = traditional = folk! Defining exactly what that is, on the other hand ...
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
We're back to trying to put soft categories into hard boxes. There's always the boundary conditions, where you can't decide which box it belongs in.
But, here's a few starters:
A traditional musician does't think that the other fiddler is holding his fiddle or bow wrong, because that's not the way it was done by Miss Paganini.
Traditional musicians don't feel unhappy because the music doesn't sound like jazz or rock.
Traditional Irish musicians don't feel the need for a 10 minute drum solo in the middle of the set.
Traditional musicians don't care that the music doesn't have a complex chordal structure, that the tunes are short and don't develop, that there isn't much use of syncopation, rubato, dynamics, that people don't break off the set to improvise an obbligato, that the tunes are nearly all in the same restricted set of keys, that the tunes don't often modulate...
I'm talking ITM here by the way, if you paly other traditions make up your own list.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by LastToFinish
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Music isn't exclusionary, people are exclusionary. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't necessarily give up being exclusionary. One person's standards are another person's exclusions, and there's nothing wrong with that. Unless it's me being excluded, of course.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Sorry Gords - no use asking here - we're all sound artists.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"Traditional musicians don't feel the need for a 10 minute drum solo in the middle of the set."
True, but quite often there'll be a middle aged man with no friends hitting a dead goat with a stick!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
You appear to agree with my slant on this then Gords, yes?
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Yeah, and vice versa!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I am!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Would a traditional player refuse to play a tune written in the last decade, even if in a traditional style?
Would a traditional player refuse to play a tune because it was in the Scottish tradition as well (or even originally)?
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
No, and no. A traditional player might avoid a tune because it sounds alien to his/her tradition. They would probably feel that they don't understand it well enough to play it. Or they might try to play it in the style of their own tradition. Or they might dabble in music from other sources on the side. There's a recording of the old Scottish traditional singer Jane Turriff from Aberdeenshire singing a Jimmy Rodgers song, including the yodelling.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
A traditional musician would be someone who has learned folk or "traditional" music specific to that particular cultural discipline. Nearly every country has traditional music with a discipline that's unique to themselves. A musician who studies these disciplines would be considered a "traditional musician." Classical musicians study traditional methods, but they aren't specific to one country's culture -- it's an international musical language and discipline. I don't know exactly where all of these lines would be drawn, for example, jazz -- there is "traditional" styles, but where the line is drawn is murky for me. Perhaps the New Orleans style is considered "traditional."
When musicians cross a line defined by the people who consider their music to be "folk" or "traditional" they often move into a category that's considered "popular." Take Bob Dylan, for example, a musician who trained himself in the discipline of folk music, and mentored Woody Guthrie. When he introduced electric instruments to what he was doing, he had the stalwart of that tradition, Pete Seeger, standing backstage with an axe ready to sever the cables to the sound system. From that time forward Dylan's music was considered "pop," but he was in many ways a "traditional" musician.
This happens in every type of traditional music. There are always "traditional" musicians who choose to cross the line and introduce or fuse modern musical techniques and instruments. If the material that's being fused into the traditional music overpowers the traditional music it transports the music into something else. The same is true with instruments. If the introduction of new instruments compliments the tradition -- it becomes part of it. Case in point; uilleann pipes, piano, bodhran, bouzouki, concertina, accordion, guitar, harmonica, etc. Some instruments aren't as successful, like the saxophone, but there is a tradition for that instrument in "traditional" Irish music as well.
So my opinion is that traditional musicians would be people who have studied and play folk music from specific traditions or cultures. Other styles i.e. jazz, classical, rock, etc. are established forms that exist beyond any specific country's folk tradition, even though you might be able to trace their origins back to folk music. Country music is American "traditional" or "folk" music until you fuse it with rock. At that point you have a popular genre known as "Country & Western." Many of the musicians in this genre might have learned the traditional or folk music before they entered the C&W world. They would be considered "traditional" musicians as well, but they would be playing a form of "pop" music.
In Irish music you have an Irish "pop" bands like The Corrs with some members who studied traditional music, and are "traditional" musicians, but they're playing pop music that’s using elements derived from folk music. But U2 doesn't have any members that are playing anything that resembles traditional music, so they clearly none of them are traditional musicians.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Ah the two greatest contradictions of music:
Music is a universal language.
and
Music is a form of self-expression.
At the risk of disagreeing - I am both a classical musician studying the 'international musical langauge' and a traditional musician raised in a tradition of folk music. I was raised in old-time 'American' folk/traditional music. Which derives from many diffferent international styles. I consider myself to be both a traditional and classical musician. I am not a classical musician who plays traditional music. I'm a traditional musician who plays classical music.
And by traditional American music I do not mean country. At all. Period.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I am just happy if people think of me as a musician!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jayzus! I wrote that hastily because I'm in the middle of a design project and the last sentence is atrocious. It should read: "But U2 doesn't have any members that are playing anything resembling Irish fok music, so none of them are "traditional" musicians."
But you probably knew what I meant.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Cecil Sharpe, who as an upper-middle-class englishman was able to stand away from the subject and look at it dispassionately, defined "folk", or traditional material ( including dance, song, and ritual theatrics like mummers plays ) by the three qualities of continuity ( people keep doing it ), selection ( some stuff gets left out, new stuff comes in ), and variation ( we aren't still all playing it like in O'Neills 1001).
Thomas Hardy ( himself a folk-fiddler ( not a lot of people know that ) ), also pointed out that the true distinction between yer actual traditional performer, doing it because they've always done it, and the revivalist ( I'd have put that word in italics if I knew how ) is that the traddie performs with every aspect of glumness and apathy ( I may have exaggerated slightly ), whereas the revivalist perfroms with much energy and enthusiasm.
On these counts that puts most of us in the revivalist camp I fear.
I don't think there's any harm in saying one is a player of tm, not an actual born-in the-wood traddie, you just have to know that some people grew up listening to it in their native home, whereas one came to it out of interest and it stuck. It doesn't actually make the traddie any better a musician at the end of the road - funny that, isn't it ?
Consider; what do you call someone who grew up listening to folk music from their parents and friends ? Like my son and daughter. Children of revivalists. One isn't interested ( must have been that wet week at Sidmouth). One pinched my japanese acoustic, got me to build her an electric, can tootle on the whistle a bit, likes the Battlefield Band and the Oyster Band. ( And Lou Reed, Alice Cooper, loads of other stuff.)
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Perfroms - sp, see me later. Oh ! It was me !
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
This really is a daft question because the answer is either every musician is a traditional musician, or that there are only maybe a handful left in the entire world; a couple in Mongolia say and two or three in Bolivia.
The question Jack defines is "cultural discipline'. But he says that this can only be traditional if the discipline is geographically localized. This is, of course, plain daft.
All musics on this planet have evolved through generations, whether localized or travelled. To make a distinction is worse than pointless, it's device.
People learn music from other people, that's just the way it happens. Occasionally, some plucky individuals make personal lasting contributions, but basically it's all just culture. And to try to define it within national boundaries is fraught with danger. For example, just you go and try to define Ireland's national boundaries
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
divicive
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I'm sorry you think it a daft question Michael, and that Jack's opinion is also daft, although with 27 replies to date obviously some people think it's worth discussing
What you seem to be saying echoes Louis Armstrong's famous definition of fok music: 'all music's folk music; leastways, I ain't never heard no horse singing', or something like that. A good soundbite, but I'm not sure if it holds water.
Still, you'll be pleased to know I for one don't judge your view to be daft. I just disagree with it.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Daft eh? Michael, you have a penchant for wanting to find things in what people say to call them "daft," but in this case you read the daft part into it yourself. I never said that the discipline had to be physically located in the country of origin. Obviously there are Irish musicians in America, for example, but the music is considered Irish and not American. There are Indian musicians living in, say... England, but the music is still considered to be Indian. And before you call me daft for saying that the musicians themselves have to be from the same country the music is from... I never said that either.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I think that through the19th and 20th centuries that many Irish and Irish descendents survived severe harship through their music, or at least it was a great sense of roots and support. Technically, many non Irish or Irish descendants can play the music, and it is good to spread appreciation of the art form. But the guts of it is feeling and respecting the hardship that generated the music. How many people can play the music with feeling, bring a tear to the eye, and feel, yes I am Irish or feel those are my roots and I'm damn proud of it?
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
See that goes down with saying you have to be Irish to truly play Irish music. And I believe that's daft.
There are people who have come to Irish or other types of traditional music after suffering severe hardship in their own lives and I believe that they invoke those same feelings. There are also those in direct descendance of those who suffered during the times you mentioned whose playing is flat and emotionless.
Appreciating the hardships, understanding the hardships goes beyond having Irish blood in your veins. Many people play the music with feeling and bring tears to peoples eyes who are not Irish by blood or anything.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"But the guts of it is feeling and respecting the hardship that generated the music. How many people can play the music with feeling, bring a tear to the eye, and feel, yes I am Irish or feel those are my roots and I'm damn proud of it?"
The people that can't can always use this as an excuse... unless they're Irish that is.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Sorry Jack, it wasn't clear what I was saying. When I said "the discipline is geographically localized", what I meant was, "the origins of the discipline is geographically localized."
You make the definition as:
A "cultural discipline" may be deemed to be traditional if the origins of it can be said to be "specific to one country's culture".
You rule out "classical" because "it's an international musical language and discipline". You would say that its origins are European and so non specific to a particular country. And the reason I say this is a daft notion is that you cannot define in cultural terms what a country is. Though the origins of the concept of countries lie in a mixture of geographical isolation and spoken language, they have existed for some considerable time now as merely political boundaries and culture has always transcended these. And there are few cultures better at transcending these boundaries than music, precisely because it transcends spoken language.
You may think I'm splitting hairs here, but this is very important.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Above I had simply replied, "I am" to the question of who is a traditional musician. I now find myself compelled to explain. If pressed, I would not say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish. If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere, in addition to material grown here at home. I have heard real Irish traditional musicians, and am not accomplished enough in the genre and style to presume to that title. Traditional because I play acoustic instruments, more often than not unamplified, and play and sing material that I mostly heard other people singing and playing live, rather than that I heard on records (or CDs or MP3s). The identity of the authors of what I sing and play have more often than not been lost over time, but I don't turn my nose up at a good Dougie MacLean, Tommy Makem, Tommy Sands or Stan Rogers song just because they wrote them fairly recently. I feel more comfortable with the tag 'trad' than 'folkie,' because around here, folkies tend to be singer/songwriters who often have a leftie political agenda, more oriented toward song than instrumental music.
Don't know if that muddies the water, but there it is....
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Yep, it does muddy the water. And good on you, for that is the point I'm making. It's all way way too grey to be talking in absolutes of what is, or is not.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Michael, is it not true that all forms of traditional music have a country of origin? If not, give us your list.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Well, yes Jack. If you accept the concept of the definition of traditional music as having a country of origin. But it is precicely that definition that I question, on two counts. Firstly, I don't believe in countries. Secondly, The origins of a tradition can not be pinned down so specifically.
It's probable that bagpipes in some form or other originated in the Middle East. The fiddle in the shape and tuning it is used today is certainly mid European. And what of the diddley music itself? How much of "traditional Irish music" came from Northern Ireland? Do you want to argue that the Northern Irish are Irish, rather than British? How much of it came from Scotland? Weren't reels English? Who first discovered the relationships between octaves, fifths and fourths? Wasn't it the Greeks? Who first counted to four? Wasn't it the Africans?
I dunno the answers to any of these questions, I'm surmising, But I tell you what, you give me a list of things that define Irish music and tell me they are Irish. (or is that the West of Ireland? Or the Mid West? Or is it that little village 22 miles south south east of Sligo?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Darn, I was so hoping you'd rise to my challenge.
Actually, there's traditional music that I associate with geographical rather than political locations. Traditional music I would recognize as Andean is originating in an area associated with a mountain range rather than a particular country. Bolivia and Peru are two political geographic areas I would relate to this. Also, gamelan music comes from an island region that includes both Bali and Java, so I don't think that traditional music needs to have a political geographic area necessarily. But music I would recognize as ITM is specifically originating in a geographic area that is distinguished by its political boundaries, both the Northern and the Republic. ITM has a definite association with this country that's included in the name. Irish traditional music has its roots firmly planted in Ireland. Irish music isn’t associated with any other country.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
But what parts of what you call traditional Irish music originated in Ireland?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Even though the instruments are mostly originating from North Africa, and the tune structures, and even names, are from Europe -- the style and sound is distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar with Irish traditional music will make no mistake as to where it originated. It might get it confused with Scottish music on occasion, but the Scots are really just themselves Irish immigrants.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jack, one thought occurs to me when I read this from you - "Anyone familiar with Irish traditional music will make no mistake as to where it originated."
.........& it is this:
What about the music Liz Carroll plays?
When you hear that, do you think of Ireland?
Cause I must admit, when I hear Liz Carroll play I immediately think of America, cause I have yet to hear her play anything which sounded really & truly Irish!
Paddy Glackin had her on RTE one time & she played a couple of tunes, her own I think, & then she said, OK now I'm going to play two real Irish tunes from Clare, but what she played made me think that the Clare she was referring to must have been a district of Chicago!
She is a brilliant musician & a brilliant Violinist & Fiddle player - but not 'Irish' surely?
Oh yes MG, when you wrote:
"Firstly, I don't believe in countries."
- three cheers Sir. I'm right behind you there me old mucker.
e.g. - I used to be proud of Sean Connery cause he was born in my home town of Edinburgh & we both worked as Milkman there for a while, but then I discovered he was a blasted Scottish Nationalist!
Me - I'm a fat man of the World.
I just happened to be born in Scotland.
I trust that one day there will be no borders & there will be only one, Unitarian type religion.
Either that, or we will all go back to Voodoo, which is a derivative of the world's oldest known religions & has been around in Africa since the beginning of human civilization. You can't get more traditional than that now, can you?
Sorry guys, please don't let me stop your debate!
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Well, Dick, I think when Liz Carroll sits down to play Irish traditional music -- no one that is familiar with ITM will think it's from Ethiopia. Sure Liz takes liberties on her original stuff, but the style of music she's working with is never in question.
If you listen to the mp3s on my profile page do you think it sounds like San Francisco music? Maybe we aren't the best exponents of ITM, but again, anyone familiar with that genre won’t be mistaken.
When I first heard gamelan music I thought it was from another planet. I then found out it was from Bali and Java -- now I associate it with those regions. When I first heard Andean music I knew it was from South America, but now I associate it with a particular geographic region. That's what happens when you get familiar with a music genre. The same happens with Irish music.
Now tell me what country Riverdance music is from? Answer -- several. It's derivative of folk music from 4 or 5 different countries. It is not traditional music, but it’s based on traditional music. The musicians playing it are disciplined in Irish traditional music. They are traditional musicians... most of them. The music is fusion. You could also call them fusion musicians, but most of them have studied and are accomplished traditional players. Therefore they are indeed “traditional musicians” as well.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So how come what you call "traditional Irish Music" is not derivative of several different countries?
And, OK, so we associate cetain genres of music with specific global regions, even though we know that their origins are far more wide spread. And you say that if you can do this, then you can call it traditional music. That takes us back to classical music. The Andies is a bigger place than Europe, so why is Andean music traditional though classical not?
My point is that very argument that is turned to in defence of what is called traditional is riddled with inconsistencies. So why don't we just call it music and have done with it?
The answer to this is that, unfortunatly, humans hanker after belonging. Its the tribal instinct.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
'The answer to this is that, unfortunately, humans hanker after belonging. It's the tribal instinct.'
Then why fight it?
Anyway, the question was about the musicians rather than the music. A few years ago we used to see these buskers round some of the Kent towns - they were probably in London too. They were obviously South American, in terms of facial appearance, dress and, of course, music. They would play this amazingly ethereal stuff with panpipes, wire-strung armadillos et al. I looked at them thinking: wow, these are the real thing.
Then they were featured in a newspaper article. Turns out they were all students at the Royal College of Music (or Royal Academy: I can't remember which).
I didn't think any less of their music, nor indeed of them. But I couldn't think of them as the real thing traditional musicians anymore. A little bit of the magic wore off.
That magic, which'll take a different form for each of us, goes beyond the actual notes being produced, or maybe takes those notes further than expected. I mean, when I hear, say, Matt Molloy playing the Humours of Ballyloughlin I'm transported back to some kind of primaeval past, misty, wet, grey-green and druidic or even pre--druidic. Now, I'm fairly certain that iron age settlers weren't playing six part double jigs. It's just that magic can do that to you.
Part of that magic, for me, is the image, real or imagined, or more likely a bit of each, of the traditional musician. I don't think it changes the music. We can all learn to play. I don't agree that you can only REALLY play if you've suffered the hardships inherent, or supposedly inherent, in that wider cultural tradition. I don't think I could listen to two fiddle players and know which one has just been evicted and which one has just started a well paid job. A lion in a zoo and a lion on the Serengeti are equally capable of ripping your goolies off! But one of them has that little bit of magic, the real thing.
My god. I've just read through what I've written. Rambling or what. I've just had an operation. I think the painkillers and the sleepless nights are having their effect. I think I'll go for a shower.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Ah ha. Now we are getting down to the nitty gritty. We know that at the end of the day it doesn't matter where you are from. We know that it doesn't matter where the music is from. Yet we fill our heads with romantic nonsence of made up history. Pre-druidic indeed. Druids are bloody Victorian.
Time to get real I say and appreciate it for what it is. Abstract
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Fvcking about with words, is what this is. One finger up your @rse and the other hand on the keyboard. We've been here so many times before, but I s'pose it's the newbies turn. At the end of the day after various disagreements and refining some point till it's needle sharp, ye'll all just say, who cares, just play the bliddy stuff.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
good man
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Excelent Jeremy proof swearing by the way
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Don't confuse nations and states--something I learned in International Relations studies. Nations are groups of people who share common language and culture. States are artificial constructs of law and governance. And much of the sadness in the world comes when those political and cultural boundaries do not match--northern Ireland, Middle East, Kashmir, etc. Musical styles arise out of nations, not states.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
..or counties
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Oooh don't set me off again. Nations my @rse. You mean like the Nation of Islam? Danger danger AAROOOOGAA.
You think what you describe as Nations are are not constructs also? You think that just because the island of Ireland is an island, that makes the Irish nationalists right? Come on now. It's precisely because there is no inherant difference between nations, states and countries that all the violence happens
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Yep, Michael. I agree. But I suspect you mean "republicans" not simply nationalists, when speaking about Ireland, or maybe you're speaking broadly. My take is that in the Irish model, Catholic people were almost forced into their nationalism due to constant protestant bigotry and discrimination. Sweeping statement I know but I'm doing so to paint an overall picture.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Thats right. And "The nation of Israel" is a similar case. This Country/Nation was set up after conciderably more than a bit of bigotry and discrimination, only to create another set of disposessed. But it's good to see that where the Palastinians and the Isralies get on best is when they play music together.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Hey Jack, I don't think you guys over there are any better or any worse than ITM players in Ireland or Scotland or England or Japan. I'm just fascinated by the subtle differences that can be heard in the playing styles from each area.
Al said "Musical styles arise out of nations, not states." & Danny added "...or counties" & I would like to add towns & villages & even townlands, cause one man's very appealing style of playing can generate a very distinctive playing style in a small area, when it is adopted by other local musicians & is different from the style down the road.
At the end of the day we are all musicians.
When I play an Irish reel, I am a musician who is playing traditional Irish music, but that simple act doesn't suddenly make me a traditional Irish musician.
When I turn round & play a Strathspey I am a musician who is playing Scottish traditional music, but I am not suddenly & miraculously turned into a traditional Scottish musician.
I could then turn round & play a classical piece of music but I am simply a musician playing a piece of classical music.
I am a musician & I like playing music.
I don't feel I am controlled by this tribal instinct Michael mentioned.
I don't need to be in 'the club', in other words - "I don't need no stinkin' badges."
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Good man. And that's what I meant I said when I said, admittedly facetiously, "or is that the West of Ireland? Or the Mid West? Or is it that little village 22 miles south south east of Sligo?"
Unfortunately though, for some people (Kerry springs to mind), being in the club is more important than the music.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ...
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Dick, face the facts -- you ARE a traditional musician... you play traditional music. Just because you play different styles doesn't disqualify you.
You wrote: "When I play an Irish reel, I am a musician who is playing traditional Irish music"
Hmmmm... I wonder what country that reel is from.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
'You wrote: "When I play an Irish reel, I am a musician who is playing traditional Irish music"
Hmmmm... I wonder what country that reel is from'
And if he knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes that would make him a traditional Andean musician?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Hey Jack, don't start calling me names now!
Nope, sorry, fraid I just don't see it that way at all Jack.
Going back to the nationality thingy, I was born a Scot, so I'll always be a Scot & it doesn't really matter that I have lived almost as long in Ireland as in Scotland.
I could in fact live here another 30 years & develop & strong Irish brogue & acquire an Irish passport but I will NEVER, EVER be an Irishman - I'll always be a Scot!
I can buy an instrument & learn to play it so can become a musician but unless I am born into a tradition I can never call myself of that tradition.
I am happy to be able to think of myself as a musician who plays traditional Irish music.
I play a few dozen French & Breton tunes but I would just laugh out loud if someone thought I was a Breton musician.
The truth is, the way I play, I'm probably flattering myself even to think of myself as a musician at all!
So quite honestly, I wouldn't wish to insult genuine 'Traditional Musicians' by being presumptuous enough to call myself one!
I'm just having a whale of a time playing their music, I don't need to wear the T Shirt!
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"And if he knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes that would make him a traditional Andean musician?"
No, but it wouldn't change the fact that he's a traditional musician either. Now if Dick had studied traditional music from the Andes and played it all the time, then you might say he's a "traditional Andean musician." But what seems to be happening on this thread is that people want to consider themselves simply as "musicians." That's true, and I have no issue with that, but someone might ask, "What kind of music does he play?" If you answered, "Well, he plays Irish and Scottish traditional music." Then the conclusion will be that he's a traditional musician who plays those styles. If you added something like, "Oh, and he plays classical, jazz, blues, and can knock out a mean version of "El Condor Pasa" on plastic panpipes." Then the impression will be that he's a versatile musician that can play a lot of different styles – including trad. If someone was going to put together a trad group that played music from Scotland and Ireland and was looking for traditional musicians... you could suggest Dick to them. If they said, "I'm looking for traditional musicians." you could say he was indeed a traditional musician. If someone wanted to put together an Andean trad group and was looking for musicians, you wouldn't tell them Dick is their man because he knows one tune on his plastic panpipes. But if Dick had seriously studied Andean music and owned a set of zamponias, you could say, "I know a guy who plays Andean trad." If they asked if he was from the Andes you would say “no” and tell them he's from Belfast, but that wouldn't disqualify him as an Andean trad musician if that was something he seriously studied.
We have a fellow here in SF who's an expert player of Andean music and performs professionally. He's a traditional Andean musician -- from Sweden.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
It’s a lot like quantum physics, innit? Nothing absolute, everything ultimately describable only as a probability, try to examine a single particle too closely and it vanishes into an abstraction.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So Dick, are you suggesting that to be considered a "traditional musician" you have to be born in and have the correct genealogy of the country where the music you're playing comes from?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
No, not at all Jack. There are many excellent Irish Traditional musicians who have grown up in countries which are far, far away from the shamrock shore, but for me, the all important factor is that they have grown up 'in the tradition', i.e. had Irish parent or parents who exposed them to the music all through their growing years.
They grew up with ITM as an integral part of their every day life and for them to listen to ITM was as natural to them as breathing or eating.
They learned to play as they grew up, perhaps taught by their parents or perhaps by outside tutors, but encouraged & coaxed along by their parents who loved & appreciated the music & could relate to it & relate it back to Ireland & things Irish.
Thus, a child could have one Irish parent & one Andean parent, but if they are brought up in the manner described above, then to my way of thinking they could class themselves as Traditional Musicians.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
michael,
The "nation" and "state" thing is simply a way that people in the field of international relations look at issues. And, for better or worse, people who have a common language, religion, and customs tend to stick together with each other more than they do with outsiders. As you stated, however, that concept, and the term 'nation' has been abused by those with political agendas, axes to grind, etc.
Happily for us, musicians, as people have pointed out above, the differences in musical culture more often than not seem to produce reactions more like "that was cool and different, how did you do that?" than "you worship differently, so I want to exterminate you."
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I don't know though Al. The way some of the arguments have raged on here, I'd say we've been pretty close to acts of extermination, more than a couple of times!
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So Dick, are you suggesting that "traditional musicians" have to, 1) have the correct genealogy and ethnicity, 2) have at least one parent from the country that the music comes from, 3) has to have learned the music as a child and, 4) has to have grown up with all of these circumstances?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jack the Anorak,
I can think of a number of people who I consider Irish trad musicans par excellence who do not fit that criteria, which I suspect, is your point. The first one who comes to mind is an Italian guy from New York my wife took fiddle lessons from one year in the Catskills, I think his name was DeMarco.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Ok, I don't know where Dick is now, but I'm sure he'll get back to us on this.
I've been thinking about what Dick seems to have suggested here and it has raised a few questions here for me.
There's a fellow living in town here who's from Ireland, grew up in a musical family there, but didn't take up playing Irish traditional music until he immigrated here. He is now an excellent player after having been at it for the past 10 years or so. Is he a "traditional Irish musician"?
There's a couple of other fellows from Ireland who didn't grow up in musical families, but just like the first fellow I mentioned, they took up Irish traditional music after immigrating and now also play quite well. Are they not "traditional Irish musicians"?
Then there's someone like myself who has studied Irish traditional music since the early 80s and now I play it exclusively, and my playing is on par with the other people just mentioned here. Am I not a "traditional Irish musician" too?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Al, I would consider DeMarco to be an excellent musician, who plays Irish Traditional music.
Nicely put Sir or Maddam. My German wife & I were just considering that particular language metaphor after my last post.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
How very, uh... ethnocentric.
That's all well and good, David, but you'd have to first equate "native" with "traditional". I don’t think you can... or can you?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jack, you've studied the tradition. That doesn't make you OF the tradition does it? Was Diane Fossey a gorilla?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Sorry guys, must dash. Time for my Friday night session.
Have fun while I'm gone.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So to be a "traditional musician" you have to yourself be "of the tradition" which, if I understand it correctly from what's said here, means you have to be the correct ethnicity and or born in the country where the music is from, or if not actually in that country you must be raised by at least one parent who was born in that country, and you have to have played since you were a child?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
“If the Q was "Who or what is a *folk* musician?", then this would really open up a can of worms!“
Whew! I’m glad we avoided opening a can of worms!
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
This thread has yet to shake my understanding of what a "traditional" musician is exactly -- but I have an open mind.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Hasn't changed my opinion either. Because I don't believe that you have to have been raised in Ireland, or by Irish parents, or by an Irish parent, or by any family member with Irish blood to be a traditional Irish musician.
And I'm definitely glad that we didn't open a can of worms. . .
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Ok, let's start with a dictionary definition...
Traditional: tra·di·tion·al adj
1. based on or relating to tradition
2. used to describe older styles of jazz, usually played by small ensembles featuring clarinet, trumpet, trombone, and rhythm sections.
~~~
Now here, they used jazz as an example, but any ethnic music will work just as well. For the sake of this website, lets use Irish music as our example.
Now then, if we're talking about "older styles" that would mean music that's developed in Ireland over a considerable amount of time. I would consider that amount of time to mean over several generations. ITM has been developing for this long and has been handed down through the generations. It has also existed in other countries in Irish communities for generations and has been handed down there as well. In those locations outside of Ireland it's still considered to be "Irish music" and more specifically "traditional Irish music." If you removed the word "traditional" it would widen the meaning to embrace other modern styles of music played in Ireland and or modern music that relies on Irish elements for it's sound i.e. Celtic Rock. But when you include the word "traditional" it refers to the music that is unique to Ireland and has developed over many generations.
Now if someone plays Celtic Rock -- they're a Celtic Rock musician regardless of their birthplace, ethnicity, or how they were raised. If someone plays Irish traditional music -- they're traditional Irish musicians regardless of the same things I just mentioned. To be a musician who plays traditional Irish music and not be considered a “traditional Irish musician” simply because you aren't the right ethnicity, weren't born in Ireland or raised by at least one Irish parent and you haven't played since you were a child... that would be, as Michael Gill would say -- daft.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
We cross-posted, David. If a tradition or style of music truly dies out and, after a long period of not being played, is then resurrected. It will get a label that refers to the time when it was played, i.e. “Renaissance music.”
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jack - I like your definition. I can go with that.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I'm afraid I don't, Jack. I'm a musician who plays traditional music. I'd love to have been a traditional musician, but I'm not, no matter how hard I try, or how deeply I study the tradition. I thought I was the one with the romantic ideas ...
Although you disagreed earlier with Michael, as I did, I suppose you see traditional music as any other musical genre - abstract was his word. That way traditional musician and player of traditional music can be synonymous.
Doesn't mean that if I were to find myself in SF I wouldn't want to be your friend!
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"And I certainly wouldn't call myself a traditional player of Irish music, either. Perhaps a player of traditional Irish music, at a pinch."
So I can just imagine how the conversation would go if I saw things the same way.
~~~
1st person: "Do you play music?"
Me: "yes."
1st person: "Really... what kind?"
Me: "Irish traditional music."
1st person: "Cool... I like that stuff."
(1st person's friend enters the room)
1st person to friend: "This is Jack, I just found out he's a traditional Irish musician."
Friend: "Cool! That's great music."
Me: "Uh, I'm not actually a traditional Irish musician."
1st person to me: "excuse me?"
Me; "I said I'm not really a traditional Irish musician."
1st person: "But didn't you just tell me that's what you played?"
Me: "Well, yes, but like I said, I'm not a traditional Irish musician."
Friend: "What kind of music do you play then?"
Me: "Irish traditional music."
(1st person and his friend look at each other)
Me: "No, you see, if I was born in Ireland or at least one of my parents was, and I grew up listening to Irish music since I was a child, and was taught ever since childhood by my parents or an Irish person, who had to also have been born in Ireland -- well then I would be a traditional Irish musician."
1st person: "Uh... I'm sorry, I must not have heard you right. What kind of music do you play agian?"
Me: "Irish traditional music."
(1st person and friend exchange looks again)
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Overlap? Like entirely?
A musician is a person who plays music. A 'player of music' is a musician. A classical musician plays classical music, a traditional musician plays traditional music. I know, people say that classical musicians don't play traditional music right and vice versa. But a person who plays traditional music primarily or exclusively is a traditional musician. In this case we would reference a traditional Irish musician. Besides - I never want to have the conversation Jack mentioned, even though I think I would like to print it out and frame it.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Maybe the query of this thread should have been: "Is there only one way to become a traditional Irish musician?" or, "Do you have to be Irish to be a traditional Irish musiciian?" or perhaps it could just be an informative thread: "Why were are not traditional Irish musicians."
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Yes a 'music' is different than a 'musician'. But is a 'musician' different from a 'player of music'?
I don't believe so. If you play music than you are a musician. Dropping all of the confincing terms like traditional, classical, etc leaves us with a 'player of music' and a 'musician' and I'm not seeing any difference. Textbook defintion of a musician is a composer, conductor, or performer (read player) of music. So a musician and a player of music are the same.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Ok, we'll restart the definition. How am I missing the point?
A musician is a player of music.
A traditional musician is a musician and traditional music is music.
Therefore:
A traditional musician is a player of traditional music.
So where is the point that I'm missing? And you're the one who removed the parameters of traditional when you asked me if a music was the same thing as a musician.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Maybe that. But I didn't read that above. Still, a musician who goes out and plays traditional music is a traditional musician at that moment in time.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Am I coming across as too serious? I'm just trying to be clear. Maybe I need to use more smiley emoticons.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate as long as we don't start telling each other we're "daft" or "ruining the music for generations to come" etc.
I think there might be a label you can place on someone who is fortunate enough to be raised in Ireland, in a musical family with flesh and blood humans available to hand the music down to them, but I don't know what that label would be. "Traditional Irish musician" doesn’t define that particular aspect for me.
I know some very good traditional Irish musicians living in Ireland all their life who learned the music pretty much the same way I did by listening to CDs and going to sessions. Granted their sessions were better and more abundant than the ones I could find in my own neck of the woods, but that wouldn't draw a line between us that allowed them the distinction and deprived me or others like me of the same.
When you give a definition of something like "traditional Irish musician" a definition that draws it's lines along ethnic and geographical boundaries it smacks of racism and prejudice. I don't think becoming a traditional Irish musician happens over night or can be sent away for in the post, but anyone who puts in the time and effort to understand and play it with deep affection deserves the distinction as much as Irish-born and raised people do IMHO.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
You? Serious?
I'm enjoying it. I like hearing all the different definitions. A musician born and raised by Irish parents in Ireland with an instrument (or two) in their hands are "Born and raised Irish in Ireland been playing Irish music since I was a babe traditional Irish musician'
And I'm sure that we're all daft and ruining everything. Yep. Definitely.
(I used lots of smilies so that you wouldn't think that I was being serious.)
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Oh, as to the last sentence about playing the music with the affection and distinction as those people who understand where the music came from and under what circumstances it was originally played - that person has acheived amazing-hood in traditional Irish music.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Hoping to clear up musicfan's confusion, I'll foolishly step into the fray. "Traditional" is an adjective. It can modify two nouns: the musician, or the music that the musician plays. These are, arguably, different. A traditional musician is one whose interaction with the music is in line with the traditions of his or her native or adopted culture. A musician who plays traditional music is one whose repertoire includes music played (now or in the past) by traditional musicians of some culture, not necessarily his or her own.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So a traditional musician is now defined by someone's birth or adopted culture? Leading us back to the born and raised etc. stuff I wrote about earlier? I just don't buy that. A traditional musician is a person who plays traditional music.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
And I'm not confused. Just disagreeing with these dear people.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by musicfan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Thanks for the grammar lesson, Gary, but it doesn't clear up the main thrust of the thread, for me anyway.
In your first contribution to this thread you said: "Is someone who dabbles in traditional music but mostly plays other things a traditional musician? Not in my book."
I would agree with this because the notion that they "dabble" would be like Gord's early summation in this thread that if Dick "knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes" it wouldn't make him a traditional musician. But in your latest elucidation you leave the parameters open for what someone's "interaction with the music" might be when you add "adopted" as an acceptable alternative to "his or her native culture."
My question is, where do you draw the line between what is or isn't "adopted," and what constitutes an "interaction with the music" that would be considered "traditional"?
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
For anyone who missed this thread, here is a summary of the way 'the realists' [
] see this -
I said:
"I am a musician cause I play musical instruments.
I only play traditional music so I think of myself as a musician who plays traditional music." - nothing more!
Gords said:
"I think I'm a player of traditional music." - I'm sure you are sir.
Al said:
"If pressed, I would not say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish.
If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere,"
MG said:
"humans hanker after belonging. Its the tribal instinct." - guess that means that Jack must just be that tad more 'primitive' than the rest of us then
Gords said:
"And if he knocked out El Condor Pasa on a set of plastic panpipes that would make him a traditional Andean musician?" - yeah I agree man, it seems a daft notion to me too, I think we should all just be honoured enough to be able to think of ourselves as simply musicians.
However I said:
"I don't feel I am controlled by this tribal instinct Michael mentioned.
I don't need to be in 'the club', in other words - "I don't need no stinkin' badges."...."
- but if Jack does, that's OK by me.
At the end of all this banter, he will still cling to his belief that he is a Traditional Irish Musician & I'll be forever content to think of myself as a musician, & one who just happens to play mostly Irish Traditional Music.
That man of the cloth said:
"If I learned to speak French, I wouldn't describe myself as a native French speaker, no matter how fluent I got." - I liked that one, it kind of summed it all up, for me.
So no matter how good a player I become, I'll never be able to think of myself as a Traditional Irish Musician.
He also said:
"'A traditional musician is a player of traditional music', a musician who plays traditional music is not necessarily a traditional musician..................................... " - aye, 'nough said really.
Jack said:
"If pressed, I would 'not' say I am an Irish traditional musician, even though most of the music I play is Irish. If a label applied, it would be New England traditional musician--with material and styles drawn from Ireland, Scotland, England, Canada and elsewhere," - must agree with you Al, makes perfect sense to me too.
I said - "I am just happy if people think of me as a musician!"
If you just arrived, I bet your very sad that you missed this particular 'merry go round' - !@£$%
Ah well, roll on the next one...................
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
They just asked each other & it would seem that they're both fine, ..........& thanks for asking.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Who needs to split hairs, when you have a split personality eh?
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
By the way Gords, CONGRATS on reaching your century with this thread - perhaps they should think of drafting you onto the England Cricket Team, where a century is a very rare beastie indeed!
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Thanks for the edited highlights Ptarmigan. It sounds like you're drawing this little chat to a close. Shame, I was only just getting warmed up!
) didn't it run?
Some of my contributions have, I freely admit, been extremely subjective, romanticised imaginings. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Indeed, I think it's quite healthy.
I was going to say something about how Jack and Musicfan are applying a kind of Turing test: if it sounds like a traditional musician then it is a traditional musician. A bit like if Civil War reenactors (choose your own civil war) reenact the war so well they're no longer reenactors but Civil War veterans! I suppose I won't get the chance now.
This thread has helped me a lot. I wasn't being disingenuous early on when I said I wasn't really sure. Now I'm much more sure, although it's still difficult to put it into words, as some, quite legitimately, will find objections.
I've also been called names and been patronised. I'm pleased with myself that I didn't respond in kind, something I've always been prone to. No, this has been interesting and fun. And bejaysus (surely that little expletive confirms me as being of the tradition
Regards
Gordon
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"And bejaysus (surely that little expletive confirms me as being of the tradition ) ........" - No Gords, actually, it justs makes the rest of us think that you probably look a bit like this, in real life:
http://www.coolgardenstuff.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CGS&Product_Code=SMNDD3023B&Category_Code=ELF
[Aye it was fun while it lasted!]
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Didn't I mention I'm a part-time model?
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Gnome you didn't!
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
It's interesting how folks seem to think I'm in this discussion just to secure my right to the title, "traditional Irish musician" or "Irish traditional musician." It's not about me, but rather the concept that I'm talking about. If we remove our egos from the topic for a moment then all we're doing is defining what a musician, (we can all agree we're musicians,) who plays ITM would be referred to as. There's a strong notion on this thread that our involvement in ITM deserves no identity or clarification beyond simply "musician," because of circumstances we have no control over. But isn't that really just a denial of the particular music we're playing?
I get the impression that most people in this discussion are primarily into ITM. (In my case that's definitely so.) If someone asked me what kind of music I play -- I'd tell them ITM. I don't play any other kind of music at this stage with the exception of the odd Breton, Galician, Scottish or Pakistani novelty piece. If I were to explain what sort of musician I was, it would have to include ITM in the description as the main, and for all intents and purposes, the exclusive element. There are two ways I can think of that wouldn't sound uncertain or insecure about what sort of music I specialize in. Those two would be, "Irish traditional musician" or "traditional Irish musician." I think it would sound strange if I gave the answer something like, "I’m a musician who specializes in traditional Irish music." If I said that people would probably think to themselves, "Oh, he's a “traditional Irish musician”... why didn't he just say that?" (See my short 1 act play a dozen or so comments back.)
It’s true that there are different ways to become a “musician who specializes in ITM,” and some are more “traditional” than others, but to draw lines along genealogical and geographical lines is discriminatory and exclusive. When I look through this thread I’ll find statements like this, “Someone whose repertoire comes from a particular tradition is a traditional musician.” And then the same person will say, “I learned to love this music with a passion, but only started playing it in my twenties, so I will never, in my book, really be what I think of as a traditional musician.” And then later on down the thread will draw a line in the sand by saying, “I can buy an instrument & learn to play it so can become a musician but unless I am born into a tradition I can never call myself of that tradition.” And then finally he has demoted himself to the basement of ITM by declaring, “So quite honestly, I wouldn't wish to insult genuine 'Traditional Musicians' by being presumptuous enough to call myself one!”
(Sorry Dick, I’m not picking on you. It’s just that your conceptual development here perfectly illustrates the quandary.)
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Jack, I've enjoyed this thread immensely. I genuinely did not really know my own mind on this at the start, but now I've come much closer. You've been tremendously helpful with your contributions, as has the Ptarmigan, Ecumenical et al. The fact that I happen to disagree with you matters not a jot - the discussion, in the main, has been intelligent and well mannered. I daresay it's been helpful to you too, helping you to elucidate, for yourself and others, your thoughts on the subject. I don't think you presumptuous describing yourself as a traditional Irish musician, and I doubt Dick does. According to your thinking it's perfectly OK to describe yourself as a traditional Irish musician, and I suppose you'd think it OK for Dick or I or anyone else on the session to do so (or would you have to hear us all first?)! What would be presumptuous would be for me to describe myself as a traditional Irish musician after making it pretty clear that to my way of thinking I can't be!
Now - let's play some music!
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Gords
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Hmm. I haven't enjoyed it. At all. I read a fair bit and scrolled down the rest of it. It literally made me feel a bit queasy. I'm not joking. And I know it's a bit of fun argy-bargy "you said that and he said this, and I'm right and your wrong" load of bollox, but there's alot of underlying tension going on, that I'm uncomfortable with. Michael Gill and I get into healthy scraps quite often, but it seems we both backed off here, sniffing the unhealthy whiff of overcharged egos clashing head on for no other reason than to charge head on. So work away guys. Whatever gets you off.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Thanks for the friendly overview Danny.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Funny thing Danny, the words Kettle, Black & Pot popped into my mind as I read your last friendly post.
Anyway, I sense that perhaps the 'underlying tension' in your own comments were due to the fact that we here, were able to keep our discussion on a friendly basis & we didn't sink to the base level of slagging one another off, sniping & insulting each other.
Some folks seem to get off on those head bashing, name calling, excursions back to the playground, but I think we here, managed to maintain an air of civilised debate.
So after this long discussion, we seem to have reached an amicable settlement, where we all agree to disagree & have all gone down the virtual pub for a virtual pint and a few virtual tunes.
Far more satisfactory I would say, than virtual bloody noses, don't you think?
Care to join us?
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Yep, P'raps your right, Dick. War-weary, or the genteel online equivalent. If ever you're in London, or me in Antrim, let's swap tunes rather than punches. I'm sure you'd agree...you'd beat me anyway (on either score)
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
It's a deal Danny - & the first round's on me!
[Now there's a line you don't hear very often.......from a Scotsman!]
As for the punch-up - Ah, so you've heard about my Black Belt in Origami then?
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
You're all muggles wot no nuffin Halfbloods at best
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Tradisiúnta! 'night Father Jack.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Merriam-Webster's definition of the word...
tra·di·tion
1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style
To a greater of lesser extent I believe everyone here to be a traditional musician according to at least one of the 4 defintions above.
So here's a new question. Many well respected ITM musicians learned from written transcriptions and recordings. Does that negate them as being traditional musicians according to definition 2?
I would say this "new" method of learning has been going on for quite some time now. Many Irish musicians, including Seamus Ennis, learned tunes
out of O'Neill's and many have learned from recordings since the advent of 78's.
It IS in part "characteristic" of the "manner, method or style" of learning this music and thus fits the 4th definition of tradition.
The definition of traditional is evolving just like the music itself.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by ~CK
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Aye, meanwhile a' oor heeds are just fair 'revolvin'' as this discussion just goes roon' an' roon' in circles.
Me, am fair dizzy, an' am awa fur a cuppa tae clear ma heed!
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Look out, Dick's talking in traditional dialects now.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
"traditional dialects" - ......Exterminate! ............Exterminate!
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
May I join this rather facile argument.
I play traditional music - Irish fiddle.
I am most definitely not a traditional musician.
I know people who are traditional musicians (by birth, heritage, upbringing, way of life, etc) and they also play traditional music - by definition. They don't have to be very good at it and indeed, some are not.
But it doesn't, in my humble opinion, work the other way round. I just play the music 'cos I like it and it's the best for "folk" music on the fiddle.
SK
# Posted on December 12th 2005 by stevekeene
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
So you like a long definition for yourself when someone asks what kind of musician you are. That's cool.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
I usually just say that I'm a fiddler!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by stevekeene
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
That certainly narrows it down. You can play any fiddle music there is then? Nice. Now remember, there are loads of different kinds out there. I like Gypsy fiddle personally... do you play that? How about Mariachi? Oh wait... hold the presses... I just read your post before my last one and you say you play only Irish fiddle... hmmm. I'm assuming you're talking about Irish traditional fiddling... right? So let's see, what kind of fiddler might you be? Would you prefer the long definition, or the one everyone will think to themselves after you've finished saying it?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
No, David, I'm amused by it more than anything. People get so caught up in the term that they can't even answer a simple question about what they're doing without going into a litany of cumbersome explanations.
# Posted on December 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Who or what is a traditional musician?
Far, far back during the time before - or perhaps even before that - somewhere, probably not Ireland... or even Nashville, a lone chimpanzee sat in a jungle, beating a rock on a hollow log. Looking for termites, he was. But, the sound and rhythm of his beating mystified him, and soon he forgot his hunger and became mesmerized. Another chimp, from out on the plains, hearing the sound - also being fascinated - came running to see, and was soon beating out his own tune with a stick. The session was born! And, the argument started: Was the first chimp the true traditionalist, or was the second? He was using a stick, the other, a rock. One was from the jungle - the other... Eons later...... and the beat goes on. Thank goodness.
# Posted on December 17th 2005 by dylandew