The Session >> Discussions >> Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
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Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I listened to Tommy Peoples at Fiddle 2005 playing to over 700 in the Assembly Rooms, Edinburgh. One or two "oldtimers" had to say that he "wasn't as good as he used to be". I wouldn't really know as I've only heard him play live(I've got recordings) with The Bothy Band. However, I thought he was wonderful and it was great to hear a completely solo performance.
There were those, especially younger people there, who moaned stating that they would have "preferred" him to have some form of accompaniment. It is a big room, of course, but I thought he was fine. I tried to explain that, traditionally, this kind of music was played without accompaniment or along with other melody instruments and it had "its own rhythm". They were having none of it though.
Now, I *do* love the modern treatment of traditional music too but I am old enough to remember recordings(if not so many live performances) to appreciate things done the "old fashioned way" also.
So, have we got to the stage when most of us feel we have to listen to music with accompaniment in a session or band situation? For many younger people, this is the only experience they have known. Comments please.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hello John,I dont think there is any harm in good tasteful and varied accompaniment.I believe it has its origins ,as far as Irish music is concerned,in the 1920`s and 30`s Ceili band era and the perceived need for a piano to give the music a bit of `lift` and pronounced rhythm for the benefit of dancers in a large hall.People like Michael Coleman insisted upon back-up on their solo recordings ,as a consequence of the Ceili band era ,and sadly in some cases it was to the detriment of the music.I reckon if accompaniment is well though out,tasteful and sparing that it compliments the music ,otherwise it can detract from the feeling of the music.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
ITM owes it's current popularity and it's wealth of young participants to the way it has been accompanied by Planxty and The Bothy Band (Donal Lunny) in the past and by people like Steve Cooney, Donogh Hennessy, Ed Boyd, Seami Dowd and John Doyle etc today.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I ruined my ears playing with a very very loud band. But does anyone see the irony in John's post, where the musician in question was a founder of THE band that transformed accompaniment for ever.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"People like Michael Coleman insisted upon back-up on their solo recordings"
No, they didn't. As often as not it was the recording company that insisted on it and it was even often overdubed in later without the player's consent, or even knowledge.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I agree, Michael. Of course, I loved the The Bothy Band too and much of what has happened since.
However, I still think there is a place for doing thngs the "old way" and it's a shame if it can't be appreciated.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I was at a music festival in Swinford in August. One of the bands playing for the set dancers in the market street was Shaskeen. There were about 6 or 7 of them in the line-up and not a single accompaniment instrument to be seen or heard. Pure melody straight through. Wonderful to hear.
Accompaniment for Irish dance tunes is only too often as inappropriate as accompaniment would be for Gregorian chant.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I get the impression that accompanists can drive melody players on a lot,in terms of speed and solo players with no back up might well play at a slower pace.It could be that the break neck speed of many sessions nowadays has a lot to do with guitars,bodhrans,etc. setting the pace rather than the melody players.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I also agree, John. Of course, I loved the The Bothy Band too but not that much of what has happened since.
However, I still think there is a place for doing thngs the "old way" and it is a shame if it can't be appreciated.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Exactly the example I had in mind Trevor, being recently exposed a fine live rendition of the D minor.
And I still find it peculiar that when thinking of backing almost nobody ever even brings up the idea of backing *fiddle.* It isn't a "meldoy" instrument any more than the piano is a "backing" instrument.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well John, I wouldn't say that we've ruined our ears as such, but I will say that it's just great to hear unaccompanied traditional music. Very often, there seems to be accompaniment, for accompaniments sake, without consideration for the tune itself - why?
I don't actually have a problem with accompaniment per se - I am a guitarist, but there seem to be a lot of people around who don't actually listen to the tune which they are accompanying..
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I was there myself and enjoyed it. Having said that it was very same-y. There's only so long one person playing one instrument can really hold someones attention. Don't get me wrong... I have great respect for the man who, by the way, looked very nervous and managed admirably.
Long and short answer to the question is no!
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Evolution marches on. Though some of the modern stuff is so complex that there surely must have been some sort of Intelligent Design behind it.
The situation is similar to the bluegrass and old-time scene in the states and, I guess, to other scenes. The performing and recording bands evolve toward maximum impact and the fans and wannabes and impressionable young folks follow suit. The feedback of The Commercial into The Folk (and vice versa) has been going on forever, but it’s gotten more intense now with cheap and easy technology and connectivity.
Generally, I think the whole thing is a very healthy process. I love the brilliantly orchestrated stuff from the Bothy branch of the tree and I love the purest drop I can find. Really, the only thing I can think of that bothers me is that vocal styles seem to be loosening their roots and drifting into pop indulgence.
The same technology that facilitates the rapid evolution of styles also provides the means for preserving the purest drop available. Even if it’s lost to a generation, it’s there in recordings to be rediscovered.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
We CAN have it both ways you know.
Both un-accompanied and accompanied.
It doesn’t have to be a competition. People can then listen to
what they please.
I’m sure the guitars and bouzoukis had a lot to do with my
initial interest in diddly, but I came to appreciate it without
also – so I wasn’t corrupted.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Kevin, I’m a big fan of backing-fiddle. Years ago when I was competent enough to saw on a fiddle but didn’t know many tunes, I would occasionally play a Cajunesque rhythm part in old-time sessions. The response was interesting. Some folks would remark that the tune sounded better than usual, but didn’t know why. Of the ones who noticed what I was doing, some thought it was pretty cool and a few thought it was blasphemous. Not wanting to offend anybody, I’m fairly cautious about when I do it.
I’ve been wondering lately how it might go over in an Irish session, but I rarely get to any and I’m not sure I would feel free to experiment. I was planning to start a discussion on the topic, but I guess I just did. So, how would it go over in a session if somebody occasionally played accompaniment on fiddle? I don’t mean parallel harmony, but something more like rhythmic two-note chords with little bits of counterpoint.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Its common enough in Donegal to hear two fiddles play a tune with one fiddler an octave below the other or playing droney bass .I have a nice tape of Johnny and Mickey Doherty doing this.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Surely it doesn't have to be an either or situation.
Listening to a raw Flute, Fiddle, Whistle can be a wonderful experience.
When there is no guitar, piano or Bouzouki I find it much easier to concentrate on the melody, & the players style & technique.
When there is accompaniment, it can also be a very pleasurable experience, but a very different one.
At the Fiddle week in Glen, I believe you mostly only get solo fiddle performances as most folk attending are there to hear the fiddle & so don't need or want to have the sound cluttered up with jangling & thrashing of strings.
I suspect that most folk attending the concert in the Assembly Rooms would also have been fiddle enthusiasts and so would, or should, have been tuned into the sound of a solo fiddle.
I remember travelling from Aberdeen to Newcastle to see & hear Tommy & daughter play, & every long mile we had to travel was worth it to hear that man play.
If young folk can't listen to solo instruments then they haven't been listening to ITM for long enough & need to be patient, or need a bit of gentle education in the art of listening.
It'll just take time to wean the youngsters off the 'Rock & Roll Boy Bands of ITM'!
I'd have to disagree with your 'oldtimers' too JJ. I think Tommy is playing better than ever these days.
Let's face it, you can't really judge a person's playing by what comes out of a studio!
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I'm what I would consider a youngin' (seventeen), but I personally prefer unaccompanied solo music above anything else. Just look at Casey in the Cowhouse. On the first part of the album he is playing by himself, and if you start to take it apart bit by bit, you notice a lot of incredible and beautiful instances of technique and soul. However, on the latter part of the album when he is playing with the box player (whose identity escapes me at the moment, and I'm not around my casette to check), a lot of those subtle twists are gone, and that is with another melody player playing along. These instancies of lost personality are even more noticable, in my opinion, when listening to the great players having accompaniment alongside the melody, which is why I tend to avoid that kind of thing.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
“bob, don't really need to hear ‘backing fiddle’ in an irish traditional music session. The melody is just fine with us, really...”
So, you don’t like accompaniment? Or you just don’t like the idea of fiddle accompaniment?
BTW, what I’m suggesting isn’t bluegrass style chord chopping, but something more like what a lot of guitar players do in accompanying the melody. I guess the simplest form would be a combination of drones and rhythmic accents (shuffles, maybe) with little bits of counterpoint that serve more to accent and punctuate the melody than to parallel harmonize it.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well, I am of the younger generation, but I like the extreme traditional style best. Just melody. Sometimes a fiddle or pipe drone is nice too. I can't say I like harmonizing. Anyway, there should be a mix in the music world. Everyone to his own likes.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Yes, this is true and Tommy even stated this himself during a talk he gave on Saturday. However, Tommy was the fiddler on the first "1975" album and went with the band on tour.
It's a shame that you're trying to score points at Michael's expense. Would he have been so pedantic?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Back-up adds drama and creates a tonal landscape for the tunes. It's very compelling and evocative -- that's why we like it so much. It's rare in this day and age for the music to be presented without it, and we tend to miss it when it's not there. I've enjoyed the tunes without it on many occasions, but I admit to preferring it when I go to a concert. I don't know if I'd say it has "ruined" my ears, but it's certainly affected them.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Interesting that you talk about Tommy Peoples in this context. I have an original edition of 'High Part of the Road', where Paul Brady is the accompanist. On the sleeve it says that you can change the balance if you would prefer not to hear the guitar at all. I think this really demonstrates how much things have changed. The album was made in the early 70s, pre Bothy Band. I wonder how Mr Brady might respond if someone suggested the same arrangement today.
While on the subject what I would say is that Brady's accompaniment is really bad. He may have written the book on accompanying songs, but I never thought he could back a tune to save himself. Best - Worst example is Peoples Molloy Brady, one of the great missed opportunities in music. Everything is played far too fast. Brady's backing is intrusive and, at times, eccentric
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"We CAN have it both ways you know."
Of course we can. We can even enjoy it both ways.
But that wasn't the question, which a number of the posts in the thread already don't even really strive to answer.
"So, how would it go over in a session if somebody occasionally played accompaniment on fiddle? "
I imagine you'd get glared at while they went and looked for a "backing instrument" player, like a pianist.
Never mind if you showed up with the sort of fiddle actually designed to back and with historical precedence for it's use in backing Irish music, although admitedly never "de rigeur" most places. Principly through the lack of availability of the instrument, not because it was deemed in some way unsuitable.
Piano backing came about because of the dance tax and the rise of the commercial dance halls. Every dance hall had to have it's own piano if it wished to have any sort of piano music, ever, and so, the instrument was always there. All you had to do was add a player.
I do most almost all of my fiddle backing in non ITM purist situations. The Scots are far more open to it, for instance and there's a huge tradition of it in American country, derived from . . . the Irish and the Scots. Go figure.
"something more like what a lot of guitar players do in accompanying the melody."
Bingo! You can even do this on whistle and flute.
For goodness sake people go listen to some Baroque chamber music to see how backing is done on a "melody" instrument.
And what the heck do you think the drones on a set of pipes are? Where's the uproar against pipes backing pipes?
But again, this post is mostly off topic, as it has nothing to do with the actual question raised.
"It's rare in this day and age for the music to be presented without it, and we tend to miss it when it's not there."
Q.E.D.
"On the first part of the album he is playing by himself, and if you start to take it apart bit by bit, you notice a lot of incredible and beautiful instances of technique and soul."
And what you may, as a result, be missing that you are missing if your ears are "ruined."
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
When Tommy Peoples played a concert for us here, he told us he hoped to have a session/house party before the concert, both so that he could meet with some old friends here, and to meet the local players, and also so he could think about accompanists.
We were surprised, but the next day before the concert he mentioned, several times, that it's great fun for him to play both solo and with accompaniment. I recall him wryly saying something like, 'I wouldn't want to do either way -all- the time...,' with a smile and a wink.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well this is one young kid who hates guitar accompaniment. I'm 22 and I can't stand what it does to the natural feel of the music and for the most part it destroys any rhythmical naunce in the music. The strummyness is unbearable in most situations. I do however love the piano, maybe because I've been biased by listening to many nice recordings with piano in it. The Banjo can also be a nice form of accompaniment in the right hands.
I hardly ever listen to recordings these days that has guitar and I spend most of my time listening to the old masters like Martin Byrnes, Bobby Casey, Peter Horan, Kevin Henry, John McKenna and people from the pre-band era. I have house sessions from time to time that are lovely and when I do go outside for a few tunes it's for the craic and the people and not necesarily the music. I have a few friends my age that I know quite well and they all have the same opinions as do I. I've also met a few kids other places who also share the same opinions but for the most part we are in the minority.
I think it has to do with the band era people. So in response to the original question my answer is yes, you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Of course we can. We can even enjoy it both ways.
But that wasn't the question, which a number of the posts in the thread already don't even really strive to answer."
No that wasn't the question but if you read on from where you qouted me I did answer the question. Why would you quote
the first point and not the second (which answers the question) and then say I haven't answered the question ?
Guitars and bouzoukis caught my interest initially, once
interested I delved further, and know enjoy the music unaccompanined just as much. So have my ears being ruined
, have I been corrupted? Your answer is yes.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"So, have we got to the stage when most of us feel we have to listen to music with accompaniment in a session or band situation? For many younger people, this is the only experience they have known. Comments please."
I prefer the music without accompaniment. Accompaniment can be great, and I often like it a lot. I just like listening to the music more when the musicians don't need accompaniment, and don't have it. I like playing more without it too. I'm 18. A fellow (he's in his 40s) at the session last night was all pleased when the tenor banjo/fiddle player got out her bouzouki, saying it "adds so much to the session, it's so much better," or something, but I wished she'd go back to banjo.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Why would you quote the first point and not the second (which answers the question) and then say I haven't answered the question ?"
Because I was not responding to you alone. I simply used your quote instead of someone elses similar statement to address the issue generically. I didn't mean to single you out.
". . .have I been corrupted? Your answer is yes."
No it isn't, because you are not "our youth." You are you.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Steady now lads! No fisticuffs. I'm allergic to acrimony.
I'm in the "have it both ways" school, but I don't think my ears are ruined, as I reckon I *prefer* good solo playing. But only touched upon here and not expounded is just 2 or 3 melody players playing "without accompaniment." That, in my opinion, is the best sound of all. A session I attended last night was just a fiddle, a flute and a box. Just a nice "clean" sound.
I was surprised to learn that Coleman's recordings had accompaniment added in afterwards. I didn't know they had that technology back in the 20's and 30's. I was under the impression that recordings were made straight from the performer onto a master, then thereafter mass-produced. Oh well, wrong again.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
yes ecumenical matter, I do - to paint with a large brush. The folk revival was alot of the BB's only influence of the music and I think they got a scewed version of the music thru that medium. There are however some wonderful exceptions, thankfully.
In general I find there music to be quite different from what trad irish music once was and what I hope it will again be in the future. There are always exeptions but I find people from the age of about 30 to 60 are deeply influenced by the band sound and the revival. They seem to want to recreate that sound with there playing (naturally) and many of them are at a severe loss if the guitar isn't present. But I think the availability and amount of old recordings out there now that we kids have access too might influence us back towards irish music as it was. Then again, I've heard some of the latest all irelands and they have showed me the error of that conclusion.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"So what applies to me can't apply to our youth ?"
Only if "our youth" are all exactly like you. One is a statistical statement, the other a specific instance.
"We" have 2.4 children apiece, a statement which does even make sense applied to an individual. *I* have 1. Haven't clue how many you have. Maybe you don't either.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
“That said, Alec Finn is a genius beyond compare among backers.”
A statement against which I would be reluctant to argue. I do eventually get tired of the “strummyness” – as someone here put it – of a lot of the modern guitar players. What Mr. Finn does with three bouzouki strings is subtley brilliant.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Quite a good thread, John J.
I don't think our youth are all that corrupted, but our ears are indeed getting pretty shot.
It seems to me to depend on the situation. If you're playing for a dance, you definitely want accompaniment. The crowd tend to dance to the beat rather than the tune.
In a noisy bar (eg Hootenanny, Inverness), again you want to bang it out pretty hard and some good driving rhythm definitely helps.
But in a concert situation I'm not so sure. I saw Bruce Molsky play solo at Fiddle 2002 in Edinburgh, and I doubt if he needs anything else. OK, it's not Irish, but still.,
I've recently recorded 2 unaccompanied mandolin tracks of Irish music which hopefully will come out soon on an album Aidan Crossey is putting together. I enjoyed doing it, and as far as I know, there are some other unaccompanied tracks from other contributors. I like playing unaccompanied, but a good (and I repeat GOOD) accompanist can add a hell of a lot.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
If one ignores the unthinking stance that "earlier = better," one could argue that pre-BB era musicians were deprived and their listening powers were premature, because they weren't challenged with more complex music. It makes as much logical sense as knee-jerk "good old days" conservatism.
That red meat being tossed out to the jackals - here's what I like. I like "good" accompaniment, but I like solo stuff as well. It really depends on the particular music in question.
A lot of guitaristic trad gets annoying because it imposes a harmonic structure on tunes that they don;t require. A lot of times the innate structure of a tune gets blurred out by somebody's extremely cheesy chordal background. Case in point - One of the Lunasa albums has a track with the Foxhunter's waltz. I personally find the backing epitomizes a gutless, new-agey approach that attempts to make the tune more "sensitive". . .or something. It's just awful. OTOH, often Lunasa is brilliant because of their backing. Case in point - the set on the first album that includes "Promenade;" I believe it's track 5.
I don;t think being exposed to different types of music can ever be harmful. Limiting oneself (to older or newer styles - it doesn't matter) can certainly be harmful.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
A thoughtful approach WD. I might not go as far as to say "harmful"...eg, to whom? We're only talking about "taste". But anyone has the choice to "limit" themself...although I agree with your general synopsis.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Good manners aside, I find wormdiet's post to be wrong. Saying the old stuff isn't as good because they weren't challenged with the "complex structures" of acompaniment. That's ludicrious. Great players would only be encumbered by the accompaniment that you so much enjoy. Traditional irish music didn't have or need the guitar and I find the guitar reduces the music to the lowest possible denominator. Training wheels seems to be an apt metaphor.
The old stuff, in my opinion, is more complex. Bobby Casey's, or somebody like Patrick Kelly's playing isn't even comparable with the watered down stuff you might hear today. I suggest you go out and listen to some of this stuff before you make such statements. Fire away....
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
Murphy, do you have any idea of what you're saying here and whom you're criticizing? Do you realize how many contemporary masters you're putting down? You're talking Matt Molloy, Harry Bradley, Paul McGratten, Conal O'Grada, Damien Stenson, Kevin Crawford, Frankie Gavin, John Kelly, John Wynne, etc. etc. Try to imagine them all in a lecture hall with yourself standing at the front telling them "you have corrupted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves."
Having respect for the older players like Henry and Horan etc. is admirable, but there's no need to put down the contemporary players to make your point -- unless you seek to alienate yourself. When you show up at the session, (like last night for example,) and you're sitting off to the side watching, I suppose you're just there "for the craic" and not joining in because of how beneath you our playing is and how corrupted we all are.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Like a brooktrout, the king of good manners rises to the occasion!
*polite applause*
Jack, I think you missed my point. Let me repeat the operative phrase:
*One could argue*
IE. . . hypothetically, for the sake of illustration. It's not an argument I actually subscribe to.
That first argument I made is of course ludicrous - I don;t believe for a second that complex music must be good, or that earlier music is bad. I was saying that *such hypothetical argument* makes as much logical sense as saying that "later music is by definition worse than early music." Which is to say, no sense at all. BOTH arguments are equally silly. They might be logically equivalent, but both are misguided.
The ultimate point being that chronology has nothing to do with quality. Nor does the amount of instruments or lack thereof . Ultimately it's a subjective judgment made by each listener.
And also, Jack, you've read my preferences enough times by now to know that I am not a "boy band only" trad fan. Leo Rowsome probably gets more rotation on my CD player than any more recent artists. And I must say a word of thanks to tipping me off to Paddy Carty.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, I didn't join in last night because I'm not a big fan of willie clancy week type sessions. Playing in a group of 15 musicians isn't very appealing to me. I much prefer smaller settings were there are just a few players and you can hear and react to what everyone else is doing.
As far as alienating myself, I know exactly what I am saying. If you noticed in my earlier post that I said there are a few exceptions to the rule. I've had conversations with a few of the flute players on your list and many baby boomers who are not on your list and they are in agreement with me. I'm hardly the first or the last person to have said this and if somebody doesn't like it that's fine. Trying to paint me into a corner by saying I'm critical of Matt Molloy or somebody like that is a bit illfounded. I have alot of respect for him and his music but as far as preferences about "Traditional Irish Music" I much prefer the old codger perspective. McGoldrick's fused album is a great album for music and I've enjoyed listening to it on a number of occasions that's not the direction I'd like to see the music heading if you know what I mean. But you can assume the worst in me and go about thinking that I despise anybody that isn't dead who plays irish music.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Murphy, you wrote this:
"I think it has to do with the band era people. So in response to the original question my answer is yes, you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
Tell us which major player from the "band era" (your definition is people from the age of about 30 to 60) that agrees with you. I know and have talked with most of the players I listed, and even though all of them have great respect for the older players I seriously doubt any would agree with your premise.
As for our "Willy Clancy Week" style session, as you call it, it had around 6 players most of the night. There were maybe 8 actively playing by the time you arrived, and after you left it dwindled back down again. We were also treated to some very lovely seanos singing from Moira Smiley after it quieted down again. Too bad you missed that corruption.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, I'm not going to name names but if you doubt me as a man of your words that's fine. I think it is in bad faith to have a private conversation with someone and then reveal what it was you were talking about without their permition. We all know you love the last word so come and take it.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's not a matter of having the last word -- it's a matter of honesty. I don't believe that any major player would accuse all of their contemporaries of "corrupting" the music as you have. I can imagine Seamus Tansey perhaps, but I can't think of any others that would make such an arrogant and petulant claim.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
JackMurphy, I wonder why you want to separate the players by age in this way. Your assertion that folks under 30 and over 60 are on the same page is more than amusing from the experiences that I have had with intergenerational sessions.
Maybe it is the specific experiences you have had in California and maybe at Festivals as well?
In a city like Chicago, most of the younger people want to play fast, weird tunes in weird keys played too fast. They want to strip-mine the tradition for the tunes and present it with all the arrangement they can. There are also plenty of folks here in Chicago aged 30-60 that grew up in the tradition or came to it as an adult that reject the "backing is better" and don't want to lose the melody in a sea of strumming and drumming.
The "band era" influence is less pervasive than you might think in my neck of the woods anyway!
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Yes Frances, my opinion has been biased on my experiences in California, recordings of people that fall into that age group, at festivals, going to ireland and reading what folks have to say on the internet.
30 to 60 is a very broad brush and I've no doubt painted things that shouldn't be painted but I was trying to be a bit controversial because controversy inspires thought, or it at least it should.
I'm happy that you have some of the old crop with you there in Chicago and I'm glad that those of you there have them as local influences. It's a pity that the kids in you area are going for the modern approach and I'm aware that most young people prefer Lunasa to Padraig O'keefe. I am fortunate to know a few people my age who like the old stuff, but we are in the minority.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
As much as I do or don't like defending myself this is really an elentary matter. I use semi-imflamatory language in the hope that I might catch someones eye. My eye was caught in a similar manner and it has led to my deeper understanding and appreciation for this music. I would not have happened had someone not smacked me upside the head and told me that I "... was doing all wrong, stupid." Beyond my langauge this is a simple observation and anybody with a local session with a guitar or a decent supply of cds could make the same observation.
The music is different. The music has been and is being influenced by accompaniment and the band era. Kevin Burke doesn't play like Johnny Watt Henry and anybody who is offended by this observation can be offended.
If you look at flute playing, for example the trends are obvious. Middle aged players like John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Seamus Egan, and countless others were extremely influence by the sound of Molloy and of the bothy band. Kevin Crawford thru Lunasa inspired a new wave and recently the playing of June Ni Chormiac has inspired yet another wave of playing. Rhythms, techiniques, and approaches have all been changed. Then if somebody like me comes out and says this obvious fact and wishes we would go back and play like Peadar O'loughlin then we are being arrogant and petulant.
It's very simple, listen to Bobby Casey and then to Paddy Glackin and then to Zoe Conway and tell me there's no difference and tell me that the music hasn't changed.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Murphy, review your comments on this thread. You have made gross generalizations that aren't based in reality. You have also insulted a wide range of very well known masters who are respected and revered all around the world. Because of your novice, you have yet to demonstrate your own place and ability among them or within the community of Irish music, and you have no authority or credibility to come from. You are no different than a struggling and frustrated wannabe actor waiting on tables and dismissing the people on the big screen as rubbish. You seem to think you're all-knowing yet you’re still very green and you've only just arrived in the neighborhood yourself. Please reconsider your approach and try to understand that you will win few friends in this genre with your current attitude.
Your time would be better spent if you concentrated on learning the music. One thing you might also consider is showing a little more humility. Until your own playing rises above mediocre no one will take your criticisms seriously. And even if you were a good or even a hot player it would still cast an unwanted shadow on your character. If you prefer a style that doesn’t include back-up, that’s fine. But if you dismiss them all as "corrupting the music," and anyone that plays with back-up as "corrupting the music" – you’ll become a very lonely soloist within a short period of time.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, this is not the first time you've insulted me and my playing online but I will not stoop to your extremely low and immature tactics. This little fight of ours doesn't belong online in a public set. I have never once in a public setting commented on your shortcomings as a player and as a person and I will keep it that way. The internet is not the place to fling insults.
Last time I checked, I have lots of friends who play music in the city and I am welcomed at any session (except now maybe your own, which is fine). Just because I do not choose to frequent your session doesn't mean I don't get out. Around town I am quite open about my views and yet you are the only who has managed to take offense at this. Amazing.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Then if somebody like me comes out and says this obvious fact and wishes we would go back and play like Peadar O'loughlin then we are being arrogant and petulant."
Worse than that, you even branded as being untraditional by "traditional" players ignorant of the tradition, and unware of it.
Every now and again there's the payoff though, like the guy who came up to me after a solo gig early in the year and said, "I didn't even know anybody played like that anymore."
"you’ll become a very lonely soloist within a short period of time.
Soloists may be alone, but that has little to do with whether they are lonely or not.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Around town I am quite open about my views and yet you are the only who has managed to take offense at this. Amazing."
You wouldn't say that if you were a fly on the wall in conversations I've been privy to. Your attitude has been duly noted by more than just myself.
And I wasn't insulting your playing but rather making the point that it's not a good idea to take such visceral swipes at established masters when you haven't yourself even crossed first base. To insult the masters from that vantage point only comes across as pathetic jealousy and childish envy.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"You wouldn't say that if you were a fly on the wall in conversations I've been privy to."
How would you know? During conversations with I have had with you, you never stop talking long enough to hear what anybody else at the table had to say. But I digress, I won't be pulled into a yelling match with you. You may have the last word, as usual, but I do not appreciate your insults on this forum or another forum that I used to be a member of. I haven't insulted anyone, I've offered my opinions and stated a few obvious facts.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"I haven't insulted anyone"
Really? Maybe you didn't review the thread then.
"you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
And I'm sure anyone here that plays guitar won't be insulted when you say...
"I find the guitar reduces the music to the lowest possible denominator."
And anyone who's currently touring professionaly won't be insulted when you say...
"Bobby Casey's, or somebody like Patrick Kelly's playing isn't even comparable with the watered down stuff you might hear today."
The point is, Murphy, if you prefer the older style -- that's great -- but you don't need to put anyone down in the process. I'd be surprised if you remained welcomed at sessions around town if they knew you thought their music was "corrupted," "watered down," and "the lowest possible denominator."
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well I believe there is a difference between making an observation and making an insult. "You're fat and ugly"- that's an insult. "People who watch to much tv and eat poorly have a big chance of becoming overweight." -that's an observation
"Your playing hasn't even crossed first base." "You should go home and practise your tone and intonation." "You're playing is mediocre." "You should better spend your time at home learning more than three tunes." those are all personal insults and those have all been posted by you about me online.
Saying music has changed, saying the guitar changes the music and offering my opinion that the music was better back then are all observations.
Frankly, it seems that you are trying to put up a defense for them to try and show me and others that you are in the in crowd? You are not Kevin Burke and if he wants to come in her and have issue with what I have to say then let him, you aren't his tongue.
And regarding music in the city. I was at Vinnie Cronin's session the other day and I was very impressed with his music. He has ties to the older crowd and it shows in his playing. There's a certain band in the city who's playing I love... they have their own sound and I really enjoy it. They have the best guitar player I have heard and musically speaking they are brilliant. Even if people don't play exactly like Denis Murphy in the city I still enjoy them and their tunes. Now if Kevin Henry was having some tunes next door I would most likely be over there with him. There's loads of good music in the city but things could be better. I cannot turn off the influences I've had or ignore my preferences. And for honesties sake I've emailed this thread to a few people who play in the city and we'll see if I'm still welcomed at their sessions.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Dear me,
Last time I looked I thought this wasn't a bad thread.
Returning to the theme, mention of Cathal reminded me of the Boys of the Lough line-up with Dave Richardson,Robin Morton, Cathal and Aly Bain.
I quite liked that band, particularly their live albums, and they didn't use much chordal accompaniment. I would differentiate between percussion and a chordal instrument. Sometimes they used concertinas to accompany, and Dave did a bit of strumming on the cittern but it was largely melody playing plus bodhran. An underrated band in some ways. I quite liked Tich's guitar playing, but it changed the character of the music completely, and I didn't really listen to them much after that, particularly when they later added piano.
In retrospect, they were slightly overshadowed by the Bothies' all systems go approach, but they were really good. I wonder how they would fare nowadays with that old line-up?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
You're right, Dagger. Dick Gaughan tended to play a lot of melody when he was in the band too. I can't really remember them with Mike. Apparently, he left in March 1972 and The Boys played at Inverness Folk Festival that year. I honestly can't recall whether it was Mike or Dick in that line up. A great concert, though.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Dear me,
Last time I looked I thought this was quite a dull thread. It's got lots more fun. Everybody loves a good spat.
Looking at this from a point of view of not knowing either contender, there are a couple of points of logic that need cleared up.
Mr Jack Murphy in the "old" corner (though he's only 22) has one fundamental thing wrong:
Yes, saying, "People who watch to much tv and eat poorly have a big chance of becoming overweight," is an observation. But, "Saying music has changed, saying the guitar changes the music and offering my opinion that the music was better back then," is an opinion. Sorry mate.
The other thing is, that Mr Murphy does not seem to understand, is that the best of the music from the old days is still present in the best of the new music. It didn't stop when the guitar was introduced, it adapted. To say it's different is too simplistic, it evolved.
It's like saying humans are different to gorillas. Yet we share more than 99% of our DNA. Why waste time arguing about that less than 1% when we can glory in the similarities.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Ah Dagger, good man for bringing back happy memories of one of my favourite bands 'Boys of the Lough'.
With that line up of "Dave Richardson, Robin Morton, Cathal and Aly Bain", I think they were one of the few outfits who managed to bring the pure drop onto a concert platform without falling into the trap, & feeling they had to tart it up!
Their early albums are still a joy to listen to.
Oh yeah, can you just clarify one thing for me MG, in your opinion, which one of them looks more like a Gorilla?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I sometimes got issues with the guitar, but not on the same level my good friend Jack Murphy has. Jack has trained is ear with old style music, listening to many old recordings. I really respect his taste in the old style, but I think I'm more like half way between the old style and modern style. I listen a lot to session recordings I made or got from someone else with people like Mike Rafferty, June McCormack, Maeve Donnelly, Jerry O'Sullican, Brian McNamara, etc.
Anyway, I think that guitar backing can be very nice if the guitar player, like any other musician, treats the music with respect. A guitar player should *know* the tune he's backing, or at least *listen* to the tune once before making any attempt to back it, unless he knows it. Also, the guitar should *not* be loud. ITM is about melody, you don't want a guitar to hack it's way through.
I would play tunes with guitar players like Paul De Grae (just a good example) anytime. But 90% of guitars players I met didnt meet my personnal standards, but then I could say the same about other instruments.
The reality these days is that people, some of them not being really talented or just impatient, want to play like Lunasa, Solas, Seamus Egan, McGoldrick, so they want to play fast, rush their phrasing, don't take the time to really listen, and it creates a mess. I was at the Ennis Festival beginning of the month, and it's pretty much what it was about. There are many exceptions of course.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"It's like saying humans are different to gorillas. Yet we share more than 99% of our DNA. Why waste time arguing about that less than 1% when we can glory in the similarities."
How many people do you know who like being called a gorilla?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I watched something on TV the other day about the whole chimp/man DNA thing. Chimps are violent, aggressive -- and even cannibalistic. This is a fascinating topic, but probably not in an ITM forum. Monkeys on the other hand would be quite on topic. Give 100 monkeys ITM instruments and they'll eventually have a session... and start a website about it... and some of them will make gross negative generalizations about how other monkeys don't play it right.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Is that an attempt at the last word? Calling me an monkey or a Seamus Duffy in training? Come on, surely you needed result to name calling when there's so many other aspects of my playing that you haven't insulted.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's funny though, this thread is titled "Have we 'ruined our ears' or corrupted our youth..." and when you agree you are seen as insulting the whole world and then compared to apes and monkeys. I guess it's no wonder that those making this comparison are the ones resorting to personnal, immature, targeted insults. Extremism is everywhere, hey?
Re: Have we "ruined our post" or corrupted our Jacks with our desire for bananas?
Jack or Jack? What's this "Phantom Button" stuff?
When did anybody overdub backup?
In the old days there wasn't much in the way of backup - maybe on stage in America, there are a few mentions of piano or even banjo or mandolin. People in Ireland were barely able to afford a melody instrument in the first place - I've always wondered if stringed instruments were available in shops in the late 19th, like store-bought fiddles etc.
Backup has changed the way people play, having recordings around has affected things too! I'm glad I've been privileged to hear the old boys years after they went to their reward - they were great, and distinct from what you hear now. I think every record should have some pure solo playing too - so people get to hear what it's like. Maybe they could pass a law...anyway for me all this Bothy Bandage might as well be a different genre entirely, like thrash metal, or what Patton Oswald calls "Tibetan Scream-Singing." "Going to the Luanasa concert?" "Nah, I'd rather go hear some Scream-Singing."
Resume p*ss-fest.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"What's this "Phantom Button" stuff?"
It's the latest concertina revalation I've had -- and it's a doozy. There was a button I saw the masters playing for ages that I finally found, (thanks to Pat Egan,) and it's a button that isn't really there. I call it the Phantom Button. Anglo concertina players might know what I'm talking about.
Kevin, I agree that the old stuff is great, but that doesn't have to mean that the contemporary players are crap... or does it?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hi Weekenders, welcome to the session.org.
It looks like Murphy's sendingl his pals from C&F to come and see how he's denounced all ITM musicians between the age of 30 and 60 along with the guitar players. He's pretty slick, eh fellas? Impressed?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
” I have never once in a public setting commented on your shortcomings as a player and as a person and I will keep it that way. The internet is not the place to fling insults.”
Brilliant !!
Now my English wouldn’t be great, but is that an oxymoron or a paradox ?
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Because that's not how it's actually spelled, Fin? Johnny J, sorry to have missed Tommy! What a lovely man he is... Unfortunately, can't make The Blythe tomorrow night -- had made previous plans to have Thanksgiving with friends of Helen's...
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hello all,
To return to the start of this thread (before it undid years of work by the San Francisco Tourist Board...), in my opinion Tommy Peoples IS the answer to the whole issue - you could almost take An Gleann Ciuin/The Quiet Glen as accompanied or unaccompanied depending on your definition/mood/taste - beautiful work by Alfie Duggan - I definitely do not feel corrupted by this album.... and while I'm on the subject, John J I agree with you about his standard of playing, having recently seen him solo too - could he perhaps have committed the awful sin of maturing as a player???
Good luck all.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I am a 45 year old guitar player and since I'm right in the middle of this controversy (60+30/2 = 45) I need to put in my 2 cents in defense of my generation.
Wow, what a spirited debate!!
All I can say is just listen, then play, then talk (or shout if that's your style.) Don't do these three things in a different order.
The only thing that can and should often be left out is 'talk" or "shout".
My gut tells me that the younger Jack in the above comments needs to work on steps 1 and 2 for a number of years more
before making further declarations regarding the corruption of the music.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I have come across Irish musicians that said that accompinament was traditional in their areas, and some musicians that said it wasn't, so depends where they come from, I think it was a lot to do with the Scots influence.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well, I expected to hear arguments from both sides and I reckoned that there would be many(like myself)who enjoy both approaches and various ones in between! It was also probable that others wouldn't have been particularly interested at all.
However, I never expected the discussion to get so heated and personal or spawning subsequent threads.
In some ways it is quite amusing but *really* it's a shame. I'm honestly not that evil at all.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Actually, I didn't have much at stake with the premise of this thread since I enjoy all the periods of this form of traditional music. I wasn't challenging the person who started the thread, but rather the person who insulted the majority of the members here with his errant contributions. Maybe the discussion was "couched" as David points out, but I don't really see it as a valid excuse for that sort of thing.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I should again clarify that I didn't necessarily think that one style was better than the other. In fact, I hope that I made it clear that I appreciated both.
My main argument(well, actually more of a suggestion) was that those people who have known nothing else other than accompanied music may, for one reason or other, be unable to appreciate solo playing to the same extent. I was actually pleasantly surprised when so many younger players, including the "other Jack" still appreciated things "the old way".
However, I didn't really intend for there to be a dispute as to which way was best because I don't think you can really claim that either is better or worse. They're just different.
Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I listened to Tommy Peoples at Fiddle 2005 playing to over 700 in the Assembly Rooms, Edinburgh. One or two "oldtimers" had to say that he "wasn't as good as he used to be". I wouldn't really know as I've only heard him play live(I've got recordings) with The Bothy Band. However, I thought he was wonderful and it was great to hear a completely solo performance.
There were those, especially younger people there, who moaned stating that they would have "preferred" him to have some form of accompaniment. It is a big room, of course, but I thought he was fine. I tried to explain that, traditionally, this kind of music was played without accompaniment or along with other melody instruments and it had "its own rhythm". They were having none of it though.
Now, I *do* love the modern treatment of traditional music too but I am old enough to remember recordings(if not so many live performances) to appreciate things done the "old fashioned way" also.
So, have we got to the stage when most of us feel we have to listen to music with accompaniment in a session or band situation? For many younger people, this is the only experience they have known. Comments please.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Yes. Yes we have.
KFG
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hello John,I dont think there is any harm in good tasteful and varied accompaniment.I believe it has its origins ,as far as Irish music is concerned,in the 1920`s and 30`s Ceili band era and the perceived need for a piano to give the music a bit of `lift` and pronounced rhythm for the benefit of dancers in a large hall.People like Michael Coleman insisted upon back-up on their solo recordings ,as a consequence of the Ceili band era ,and sadly in some cases it was to the detriment of the music.I reckon if accompaniment is well though out,tasteful and sparing that it compliments the music ,otherwise it can detract from the feeling of the music.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by cos
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
ITM owes it's current popularity and it's wealth of young participants to the way it has been accompanied by Planxty and The Bothy Band (Donal Lunny) in the past and by people like Steve Cooney, Donogh Hennessy, Ed Boyd, Seami Dowd and John Doyle etc today.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by John McCartin
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I ruined my ears playing with a very very loud band. But does anyone see the irony in John's post, where the musician in question was a founder of THE band that transformed accompaniment for ever.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"People like Michael Coleman insisted upon back-up on their solo recordings"
No, they didn't. As often as not it was the recording company that insisted on it and it was even often overdubed in later without the player's consent, or even knowledge.
KFG
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I agree, Michael. Of course, I loved the The Bothy Band too and much of what has happened since.
However, I still think there is a place for doing thngs the "old way" and it's a shame if it can't be appreciated.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I was at a music festival in Swinford in August. One of the bands playing for the set dancers in the market street was Shaskeen. There were about 6 or 7 of them in the line-up and not a single accompaniment instrument to be seen or heard. Pure melody straight through. Wonderful to hear.
Accompaniment for Irish dance tunes is only too often as inappropriate as accompaniment would be for Gregorian chant.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
... or piano accompaniment for Bach's solo violin partitas and sonatas, for that matter.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I get the impression that accompanists can drive melody players on a lot,in terms of speed and solo players with no back up might well play at a slower pace.It could be that the break neck speed of many sessions nowadays has a lot to do with guitars,bodhrans,etc. setting the pace rather than the melody players.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by cos
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I also agree, John. Of course, I loved the The Bothy Band too but not that much of what has happened since.
However, I still think there is a place for doing thngs the "old way" and it is a shame if it can't be appreciated.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Exactly the example I had in mind Trevor, being recently exposed a fine live rendition of the D minor.
And I still find it peculiar that when thinking of backing almost nobody ever even brings up the idea of backing *fiddle.* It isn't a "meldoy" instrument any more than the piano is a "backing" instrument.
They all play music.
KFG
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
LOL, Michael. You even spelled "thngs" the same way.
"Thngs ain't wot they used to be".
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
that's copy paste for ye
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well John, I wouldn't say that we've ruined our ears as such, but I will say that it's just great to hear unaccompanied traditional music. Very often, there seems to be accompaniment, for accompaniments sake, without consideration for the tune itself - why?
I don't actually have a problem with accompaniment per se - I am a guitarist, but there seem to be a lot of people around who don't actually listen to the tune which they are accompanying..
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Ron P
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I was there myself and enjoyed it. Having said that it was very same-y. There's only so long one person playing one instrument can really hold someones attention. Don't get me wrong... I have great respect for the man who, by the way, looked very nervous and managed admirably.
Long and short answer to the question is no!
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by tommy_wintle
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Evolution marches on. Though some of the modern stuff is so complex that there surely must have been some sort of Intelligent Design behind it.
The situation is similar to the bluegrass and old-time scene in the states and, I guess, to other scenes. The performing and recording bands evolve toward maximum impact and the fans and wannabes and impressionable young folks follow suit. The feedback of The Commercial into The Folk (and vice versa) has been going on forever, but it’s gotten more intense now with cheap and easy technology and connectivity.
Generally, I think the whole thing is a very healthy process. I love the brilliantly orchestrated stuff from the Bothy branch of the tree and I love the purest drop I can find. Really, the only thing I can think of that bothers me is that vocal styles seem to be loosening their roots and drifting into pop indulgence.
The same technology that facilitates the rapid evolution of styles also provides the means for preserving the purest drop available. Even if it’s lost to a generation, it’s there in recordings to be rediscovered.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
We CAN have it both ways you know.
Both un-accompanied and accompanied.
It doesn’t have to be a competition. People can then listen to
what they please.
I’m sure the guitars and bouzoukis had a lot to do with my
initial interest in diddly, but I came to appreciate it without
also – so I wasn’t corrupted.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Kevin, I’m a big fan of backing-fiddle. Years ago when I was competent enough to saw on a fiddle but didn’t know many tunes, I would occasionally play a Cajunesque rhythm part in old-time sessions. The response was interesting. Some folks would remark that the tune sounded better than usual, but didn’t know why. Of the ones who noticed what I was doing, some thought it was pretty cool and a few thought it was blasphemous. Not wanting to offend anybody, I’m fairly cautious about when I do it.
I’ve been wondering lately how it might go over in an Irish session, but I rarely get to any and I’m not sure I would feel free to experiment. I was planning to start a discussion on the topic, but I guess I just did. So, how would it go over in a session if somebody occasionally played accompaniment on fiddle? I don’t mean parallel harmony, but something more like rhythmic two-note chords with little bits of counterpoint.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
WHAT?!
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Hanley
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
bob, don't really need to hear "backing fiddle" in an irish traditional music session. The melody is just fine with us, really...
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Its common enough in Donegal to hear two fiddles play a tune with one fiddler an octave below the other or playing droney bass .I have a nice tape of Johnny and Mickey Doherty doing this.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by cos
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
That would be different than "chord chops" and "double-stops", the droning by dragging another string or an octave drop is not "backing"!
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Surely it doesn't have to be an either or situation.
Listening to a raw Flute, Fiddle, Whistle can be a wonderful experience.
When there is no guitar, piano or Bouzouki I find it much easier to concentrate on the melody, & the players style & technique.
When there is accompaniment, it can also be a very pleasurable experience, but a very different one.
At the Fiddle week in Glen, I believe you mostly only get solo fiddle performances as most folk attending are there to hear the fiddle & so don't need or want to have the sound cluttered up with jangling & thrashing of strings.
I suspect that most folk attending the concert in the Assembly Rooms would also have been fiddle enthusiasts and so would, or should, have been tuned into the sound of a solo fiddle.
I remember travelling from Aberdeen to Newcastle to see & hear Tommy & daughter play, & every long mile we had to travel was worth it to hear that man play.
If young folk can't listen to solo instruments then they haven't been listening to ITM for long enough & need to be patient, or need a bit of gentle education in the art of listening.
It'll just take time to wean the youngsters off the 'Rock & Roll Boy Bands of ITM'!
I'd have to disagree with your 'oldtimers' too JJ. I think Tommy is playing better than ever these days.
Let's face it, you can't really judge a person's playing by what comes out of a studio!
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I'm what I would consider a youngin' (seventeen), but I personally prefer unaccompanied solo music above anything else. Just look at Casey in the Cowhouse. On the first part of the album he is playing by himself, and if you start to take it apart bit by bit, you notice a lot of incredible and beautiful instances of technique and soul. However, on the latter part of the album when he is playing with the box player (whose identity escapes me at the moment, and I'm not around my casette to check), a lot of those subtle twists are gone, and that is with another melody player playing along. These instancies of lost personality are even more noticable, in my opinion, when listening to the great players having accompaniment alongside the melody, which is why I tend to avoid that kind of thing.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by madforthefiddle
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
“bob, don't really need to hear ‘backing fiddle’ in an irish traditional music session. The melody is just fine with us, really...”
So, you don’t like accompaniment? Or you just don’t like the idea of fiddle accompaniment?
BTW, what I’m suggesting isn’t bluegrass style chord chopping, but something more like what a lot of guitar players do in accompanying the melody. I guess the simplest form would be a combination of drones and rhythmic accents (shuffles, maybe) with little bits of counterpoint that serve more to accent and punctuate the melody than to parallel harmonize it.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
right bob, I know what you mean and ... I did say fiddle backing...
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's the Beatles' fault...
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well, I am of the younger generation, but I like the extreme traditional style best. Just melody. Sometimes a fiddle or pipe drone is nice too. I can't say I like harmonizing. Anyway, there should be a mix in the music world. Everyone to his own likes.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Red Crow
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"But does anyone see the irony in John's post, where the musician in question was a founder of THE band that transformed accompaniment for ever."
Actually, I think it was Paddy Glakin who was the founding fiddler.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Yes, this is true and Tommy even stated this himself during a talk he gave on Saturday. However, Tommy was the fiddler on the first "1975" album and went with the band on tour.
Would he have been so pedantic?
It's a shame that you're trying to score points at Michael's expense.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Back-up adds drama and creates a tonal landscape for the tunes. It's very compelling and evocative -- that's why we like it so much. It's rare in this day and age for the music to be presented without it, and we tend to miss it when it's not there. I've enjoyed the tunes without it on many occasions, but I admit to preferring it when I go to a concert. I don't know if I'd say it has "ruined" my ears, but it's certainly affected them.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's trivial really.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Interesting that you talk about Tommy Peoples in this context. I have an original edition of 'High Part of the Road', where Paul Brady is the accompanist. On the sleeve it says that you can change the balance if you would prefer not to hear the guitar at all. I think this really demonstrates how much things have changed. The album was made in the early 70s, pre Bothy Band. I wonder how Mr Brady might respond if someone suggested the same arrangement today.
While on the subject what I would say is that Brady's accompaniment is really bad. He may have written the book on accompanying songs, but I never thought he could back a tune to save himself. Best - Worst example is Peoples Molloy Brady, one of the great missed opportunities in music. Everything is played far too fast. Brady's backing is intrusive and, at times, eccentric
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by Pól
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"We CAN have it both ways you know."
Of course we can. We can even enjoy it both ways.
But that wasn't the question, which a number of the posts in the thread already don't even really strive to answer.
"So, how would it go over in a session if somebody occasionally played accompaniment on fiddle? "
I imagine you'd get glared at while they went and looked for a "backing instrument" player, like a pianist.
Never mind if you showed up with the sort of fiddle actually designed to back and with historical precedence for it's use in backing Irish music, although admitedly never "de rigeur" most places. Principly through the lack of availability of the instrument, not because it was deemed in some way unsuitable.
Piano backing came about because of the dance tax and the rise of the commercial dance halls. Every dance hall had to have it's own piano if it wished to have any sort of piano music, ever, and so, the instrument was always there. All you had to do was add a player.
I do most almost all of my fiddle backing in non ITM purist situations. The Scots are far more open to it, for instance and there's a huge tradition of it in American country, derived from . . . the Irish and the Scots. Go figure.
"something more like what a lot of guitar players do in accompanying the melody."
Bingo! You can even do this on whistle and flute.
For goodness sake people go listen to some Baroque chamber music to see how backing is done on a "melody" instrument.
And what the heck do you think the drones on a set of pipes are? Where's the uproar against pipes backing pipes?
But again, this post is mostly off topic, as it has nothing to do with the actual question raised.
"It's rare in this day and age for the music to be presented without it, and we tend to miss it when it's not there."
Q.E.D.
"On the first part of the album he is playing by himself, and if you start to take it apart bit by bit, you notice a lot of incredible and beautiful instances of technique and soul."
And what you may, as a result, be missing that you are missing if your ears are "ruined."
KFG
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
When Tommy Peoples played a concert for us here, he told us he hoped to have a session/house party before the concert, both so that he could meet with some old friends here, and to meet the local players, and also so he could think about accompanists.
We were surprised, but the next day before the concert he mentioned, several times, that it's great fun for him to play both solo and with accompaniment. I recall him wryly saying something like, 'I wouldn't want to do either way -all- the time...,' with a smile and a wink.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well this is one young kid who hates guitar accompaniment. I'm 22 and I can't stand what it does to the natural feel of the music and for the most part it destroys any rhythmical naunce in the music. The strummyness is unbearable in most situations. I do however love the piano, maybe because I've been biased by listening to many nice recordings with piano in it. The Banjo can also be a nice form of accompaniment in the right hands.
I hardly ever listen to recordings these days that has guitar and I spend most of my time listening to the old masters like Martin Byrnes, Bobby Casey, Peter Horan, Kevin Henry, John McKenna and people from the pre-band era. I have house sessions from time to time that are lovely and when I do go outside for a few tunes it's for the craic and the people and not necesarily the music. I have a few friends my age that I know quite well and they all have the same opinions as do I. I've also met a few kids other places who also share the same opinions but for the most part we are in the minority.
I think it has to do with the band era people. So in response to the original question my answer is yes, you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Of course we can. We can even enjoy it both ways.
But that wasn't the question, which a number of the posts in the thread already don't even really strive to answer."
No that wasn't the question but if you read on from where you qouted me I did answer the question. Why would you quote
the first point and not the second (which answers the question) and then say I haven't answered the question ?
Guitars and bouzoukis caught my interest initially, once
interested I delved further, and know enjoy the music unaccompanined just as much. So have my ears being ruined
, have I been corrupted? Your answer is yes.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"So, have we got to the stage when most of us feel we have to listen to music with accompaniment in a session or band situation? For many younger people, this is the only experience they have known. Comments please."
I prefer the music without accompaniment. Accompaniment can be great, and I often like it a lot. I just like listening to the music more when the musicians don't need accompaniment, and don't have it. I like playing more without it too. I'm 18. A fellow (he's in his 40s) at the session last night was all pleased when the tenor banjo/fiddle player got out her bouzouki, saying it "adds so much to the session, it's so much better," or something, but I wished she'd go back to banjo.
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by seisflutes
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Why would you quote the first point and not the second (which answers the question) and then say I haven't answered the question ?"
Because I was not responding to you alone. I simply used your quote instead of someone elses similar statement to address the issue generically. I didn't mean to single you out.
". . .have I been corrupted? Your answer is yes."
No it isn't, because you are not "our youth." You are you.
KFG
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
So what applies to me can't apply to our youth ?
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Steady now lads! No fisticuffs. I'm allergic to acrimony.
I'm in the "have it both ways" school, but I don't think my ears are ruined, as I reckon I *prefer* good solo playing. But only touched upon here and not expounded is just 2 or 3 melody players playing "without accompaniment." That, in my opinion, is the best sound of all. A session I attended last night was just a fiddle, a flute and a box. Just a nice "clean" sound.
I was surprised to learn that Coleman's recordings had accompaniment added in afterwards. I didn't know they had that technology back in the 20's and 30's. I was under the impression that recordings were made straight from the performer onto a master, then thereafter mass-produced. Oh well, wrong again.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
yes ecumenical matter, I do - to paint with a large brush. The folk revival was alot of the BB's only influence of the music and I think they got a scewed version of the music thru that medium. There are however some wonderful exceptions, thankfully.
In general I find there music to be quite different from what trad irish music once was and what I hope it will again be in the future. There are always exeptions but I find people from the age of about 30 to 60 are deeply influenced by the band sound and the revival. They seem to want to recreate that sound with there playing (naturally) and many of them are at a severe loss if the guitar isn't present. But I think the availability and amount of old recordings out there now that we kids have access too might influence us back towards irish music as it was. Then again, I've heard some of the latest all irelands and they have showed me the error of that conclusion.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"So what applies to me can't apply to our youth ?"
Only if "our youth" are all exactly like you. One is a statistical statement, the other a specific instance.
"We" have 2.4 children apiece, a statement which does even make sense applied to an individual. *I* have 1. Haven't clue how many you have. Maybe you don't either.
KFG
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
“That said, Alec Finn is a genius beyond compare among backers.”
A statement against which I would be reluctant to argue. I do eventually get tired of the “strummyness” – as someone here put it – of a lot of the modern guitar players. What Mr. Finn does with three bouzouki strings is subtley brilliant.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Quite a good thread, John J.
I don't think our youth are all that corrupted, but our ears are indeed getting pretty shot.
It seems to me to depend on the situation. If you're playing for a dance, you definitely want accompaniment. The crowd tend to dance to the beat rather than the tune.
In a noisy bar (eg Hootenanny, Inverness), again you want to bang it out pretty hard and some good driving rhythm definitely helps.
But in a concert situation I'm not so sure. I saw Bruce Molsky play solo at Fiddle 2002 in Edinburgh, and I doubt if he needs anything else. OK, it's not Irish, but still.,
I've recently recorded 2 unaccompanied mandolin tracks of Irish music which hopefully will come out soon on an album Aidan Crossey is putting together. I enjoyed doing it, and as far as I know, there are some other unaccompanied tracks from other contributors. I like playing unaccompanied, but a good (and I repeat GOOD) accompanist can add a hell of a lot.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by CWGordon
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I like both too and, of course, it depends on the player and situation.
Is that yourself Colin or is it your Dad?
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's his dad. Forgot it was Colin's name that that was on the bottom. You seem to have guessed though.
Dagger Gordon
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by CWGordon
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I think my ear has been spoiled, not ruined. And I'm always open to a bit of corruption.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Q
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
If one ignores the unthinking stance that "earlier = better," one could argue that pre-BB era musicians were deprived and their listening powers were premature, because they weren't challenged with more complex music. It makes as much logical sense as knee-jerk "good old days" conservatism.
That red meat being tossed out to the jackals - here's what I like. I like "good" accompaniment, but I like solo stuff as well. It really depends on the particular music in question.
A lot of guitaristic trad gets annoying because it imposes a harmonic structure on tunes that they don;t require. A lot of times the innate structure of a tune gets blurred out by somebody's extremely cheesy chordal background. Case in point - One of the Lunasa albums has a track with the Foxhunter's waltz. I personally find the backing epitomizes a gutless, new-agey approach that attempts to make the tune more "sensitive". . .or something. It's just awful. OTOH, often Lunasa is brilliant because of their backing. Case in point - the set on the first album that includes "Promenade;" I believe it's track 5.
I don;t think being exposed to different types of music can ever be harmful. Limiting oneself (to older or newer styles - it doesn't matter) can certainly be harmful.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
A thoughtful approach WD. I might not go as far as to say "harmful"...eg, to whom? We're only talking about "taste". But anyone has the choice to "limit" themself...although I agree with your general synopsis.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Good manners aside, I find wormdiet's post to be wrong. Saying the old stuff isn't as good because they weren't challenged with the "complex structures" of acompaniment. That's ludicrious. Great players would only be encumbered by the accompaniment that you so much enjoy. Traditional irish music didn't have or need the guitar and I find the guitar reduces the music to the lowest possible denominator. Training wheels seems to be an apt metaphor.
The old stuff, in my opinion, is more complex. Bobby Casey's, or somebody like Patrick Kelly's playing isn't even comparable with the watered down stuff you might hear today. I suggest you go out and listen to some of this stuff before you make such statements. Fire away....
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
Murphy, do you have any idea of what you're saying here and whom you're criticizing? Do you realize how many contemporary masters you're putting down? You're talking Matt Molloy, Harry Bradley, Paul McGratten, Conal O'Grada, Damien Stenson, Kevin Crawford, Frankie Gavin, John Kelly, John Wynne, etc. etc. Try to imagine them all in a lecture hall with yourself standing at the front telling them "you have corrupted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves."
Having respect for the older players like Henry and Horan etc. is admirable, but there's no need to put down the contemporary players to make your point -- unless you seek to alienate yourself. When you show up at the session, (like last night for example,) and you're sitting off to the side watching, I suppose you're just there "for the craic" and not joining in because of how beneath you our playing is and how corrupted we all are.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Like a brooktrout, the king of good manners rises to the occasion!
*polite applause*
Jack, I think you missed my point. Let me repeat the operative phrase:
*One could argue*
IE. . . hypothetically, for the sake of illustration. It's not an argument I actually subscribe to.
That first argument I made is of course ludicrous - I don;t believe for a second that complex music must be good, or that earlier music is bad. I was saying that *such hypothetical argument* makes as much logical sense as saying that "later music is by definition worse than early music." Which is to say, no sense at all. BOTH arguments are equally silly. They might be logically equivalent, but both are misguided.
The ultimate point being that chronology has nothing to do with quality. Nor does the amount of instruments or lack thereof . Ultimately it's a subjective judgment made by each listener.
And also, Jack, you've read my preferences enough times by now to know that I am not a "boy band only" trad fan. Leo Rowsome probably gets more rotation on my CD player than any more recent artists. And I must say a word of thanks to tipping me off to Paddy Carty.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, I didn't join in last night because I'm not a big fan of willie clancy week type sessions. Playing in a group of 15 musicians isn't very appealing to me. I much prefer smaller settings were there are just a few players and you can hear and react to what everyone else is doing.
As far as alienating myself, I know exactly what I am saying. If you noticed in my earlier post that I said there are a few exceptions to the rule. I've had conversations with a few of the flute players on your list and many baby boomers who are not on your list and they are in agreement with me. I'm hardly the first or the last person to have said this and if somebody doesn't like it that's fine. Trying to paint me into a corner by saying I'm critical of Matt Molloy or somebody like that is a bit illfounded. I have alot of respect for him and his music but as far as preferences about "Traditional Irish Music" I much prefer the old codger perspective. McGoldrick's fused album is a great album for music and I've enjoyed listening to it on a number of occasions that's not the direction I'd like to see the music heading if you know what I mean. But you can assume the worst in me and go about thinking that I despise anybody that isn't dead who plays irish music.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Murphy, do you have any idea of what you're saying here and whom you're criticizing?"
There are no Gods.
"When you show up at the session . . . "
The session has "ruined our ears" and corrupted our youth.
"Great players would only be encumbered by the accompaniment that you so much enjoy."
He speaks the truth; and you can hear it in their playing.
KFG
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Thanks to JackMurphy, that is.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
You're welcome wormy and let me know if you want any more suggestions.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I will say I recently got around to listening to Cathal McConnell lately. . . he's alternating time with David POwer in the CD player.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Murphy, you wrote this:
"I think it has to do with the band era people. So in response to the original question my answer is yes, you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
Tell us which major player from the "band era" (your definition is people from the age of about 30 to 60) that agrees with you. I know and have talked with most of the players I listed, and even though all of them have great respect for the older players I seriously doubt any would agree with your premise.
As for our "Willy Clancy Week" style session, as you call it, it had around 6 players most of the night. There were maybe 8 actively playing by the time you arrived, and after you left it dwindled back down again. We were also treated to some very lovely seanos singing from Moira Smiley after it quieted down again. Too bad you missed that corruption.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, I'm not going to name names but if you doubt me as a man of your words that's fine. I think it is in bad faith to have a private conversation with someone and then reveal what it was you were talking about without their permition. We all know you love the last word so come and take it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
errr. I mean man of my word...
sorry to have missed the singing.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's not a matter of having the last word -- it's a matter of honesty. I don't believe that any major player would accuse all of their contemporaries of "corrupting" the music as you have. I can imagine Seamus Tansey perhaps, but I can't think of any others that would make such an arrogant and petulant claim.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
So you are questioning my word. Suffice yourself with the thought that some people can see the truth despite their own actions.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
JackMurphy, I wonder why you want to separate the players by age in this way. Your assertion that folks under 30 and over 60 are on the same page is more than amusing from the experiences that I have had with intergenerational sessions.
Maybe it is the specific experiences you have had in California and maybe at Festivals as well?
In a city like Chicago, most of the younger people want to play fast, weird tunes in weird keys played too fast. They want to strip-mine the tradition for the tunes and present it with all the arrangement they can. There are also plenty of folks here in Chicago aged 30-60 that grew up in the tradition or came to it as an adult that reject the "backing is better" and don't want to lose the melody in a sea of strumming and drumming.
The "band era" influence is less pervasive than you might think in my neck of the woods anyway!
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Yes Frances, my opinion has been biased on my experiences in California, recordings of people that fall into that age group, at festivals, going to ireland and reading what folks have to say on the internet.
30 to 60 is a very broad brush and I've no doubt painted things that shouldn't be painted but I was trying to be a bit controversial because controversy inspires thought, or it at least it should.
I'm happy that you have some of the old crop with you there in Chicago and I'm glad that those of you there have them as local influences. It's a pity that the kids in you area are going for the modern approach and I'm aware that most young people prefer Lunasa to Padraig O'keefe. I am fortunate to know a few people my age who like the old stuff, but we are in the minority.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
As much as I do or don't like defending myself this is really an elentary matter. I use semi-imflamatory language in the hope that I might catch someones eye. My eye was caught in a similar manner and it has led to my deeper understanding and appreciation for this music. I would not have happened had someone not smacked me upside the head and told me that I "... was doing all wrong, stupid." Beyond my langauge this is a simple observation and anybody with a local session with a guitar or a decent supply of cds could make the same observation.
The music is different. The music has been and is being influenced by accompaniment and the band era. Kevin Burke doesn't play like Johnny Watt Henry and anybody who is offended by this observation can be offended.
If you look at flute playing, for example the trends are obvious. Middle aged players like John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Seamus Egan, and countless others were extremely influence by the sound of Molloy and of the bothy band. Kevin Crawford thru Lunasa inspired a new wave and recently the playing of June Ni Chormiac has inspired yet another wave of playing. Rhythms, techiniques, and approaches have all been changed. Then if somebody like me comes out and says this obvious fact and wishes we would go back and play like Peadar O'loughlin then we are being arrogant and petulant.
It's very simple, listen to Bobby Casey and then to Paddy Glackin and then to Zoe Conway and tell me there's no difference and tell me that the music hasn't changed.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Murphy, review your comments on this thread. You have made gross generalizations that aren't based in reality. You have also insulted a wide range of very well known masters who are respected and revered all around the world. Because of your novice, you have yet to demonstrate your own place and ability among them or within the community of Irish music, and you have no authority or credibility to come from. You are no different than a struggling and frustrated wannabe actor waiting on tables and dismissing the people on the big screen as rubbish. You seem to think you're all-knowing yet you’re still very green and you've only just arrived in the neighborhood yourself. Please reconsider your approach and try to understand that you will win few friends in this genre with your current attitude.
Your time would be better spent if you concentrated on learning the music. One thing you might also consider is showing a little more humility. Until your own playing rises above mediocre no one will take your criticisms seriously. And even if you were a good or even a hot player it would still cast an unwanted shadow on your character. If you prefer a style that doesn’t include back-up, that’s fine. But if you dismiss them all as "corrupting the music," and anyone that plays with back-up as "corrupting the music" – you’ll become a very lonely soloist within a short period of time.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Jack, this is not the first time you've insulted me and my playing online but I will not stoop to your extremely low and immature tactics. This little fight of ours doesn't belong online in a public set. I have never once in a public setting commented on your shortcomings as a player and as a person and I will keep it that way. The internet is not the place to fling insults.
Last time I checked, I have lots of friends who play music in the city and I am welcomed at any session (except now maybe your own, which is fine). Just because I do not choose to frequent your session doesn't mean I don't get out. Around town I am quite open about my views and yet you are the only who has managed to take offense at this. Amazing.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Then if somebody like me comes out and says this obvious fact and wishes we would go back and play like Peadar O'loughlin then we are being arrogant and petulant."
Worse than that, you even branded as being untraditional by "traditional" players ignorant of the tradition, and unware of it.
Every now and again there's the payoff though, like the guy who came up to me after a solo gig early in the year and said, "I didn't even know anybody played like that anymore."
"you’ll become a very lonely soloist within a short period of time.
Soloists may be alone, but that has little to do with whether they are lonely or not.
KFG
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"Around town I am quite open about my views and yet you are the only who has managed to take offense at this. Amazing."
You wouldn't say that if you were a fly on the wall in conversations I've been privy to. Your attitude has been duly noted by more than just myself.
And I wasn't insulting your playing but rather making the point that it's not a good idea to take such visceral swipes at established masters when you haven't yourself even crossed first base. To insult the masters from that vantage point only comes across as pathetic jealousy and childish envy.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"You wouldn't say that if you were a fly on the wall in conversations I've been privy to."
How would you know? During conversations with I have had with you, you never stop talking long enough to hear what anybody else at the table had to say. But I digress, I won't be pulled into a yelling match with you. You may have the last word, as usual, but I do not appreciate your insults on this forum or another forum that I used to be a member of. I haven't insulted anyone, I've offered my opinions and stated a few obvious facts.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"I haven't insulted anyone"
Really? Maybe you didn't review the thread then.
"you have corrucpted the youth but most importantly you have corrupted yourselves. THe baby boomers generation is the most affected generation of the band era and it really shows in your playing. Playing with the baby boomer generation in comparison with the ones before is like two different types of music."
And I'm sure anyone here that plays guitar won't be insulted when you say...
"I find the guitar reduces the music to the lowest possible denominator."
And anyone who's currently touring professionaly won't be insulted when you say...
"Bobby Casey's, or somebody like Patrick Kelly's playing isn't even comparable with the watered down stuff you might hear today."
The point is, Murphy, if you prefer the older style -- that's great -- but you don't need to put anyone down in the process. I'd be surprised if you remained welcomed at sessions around town if they knew you thought their music was "corrupted," "watered down," and "the lowest possible denominator."
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well I believe there is a difference between making an observation and making an insult. "You're fat and ugly"- that's an insult. "People who watch to much tv and eat poorly have a big chance of becoming overweight." -that's an observation
"Your playing hasn't even crossed first base." "You should go home and practise your tone and intonation." "You're playing is mediocre." "You should better spend your time at home learning more than three tunes." those are all personal insults and those have all been posted by you about me online.
Saying music has changed, saying the guitar changes the music and offering my opinion that the music was better back then are all observations.
Frankly, it seems that you are trying to put up a defense for them to try and show me and others that you are in the in crowd? You are not Kevin Burke and if he wants to come in her and have issue with what I have to say then let him, you aren't his tongue.
And regarding music in the city. I was at Vinnie Cronin's session the other day and I was very impressed with his music. He has ties to the older crowd and it shows in his playing. There's a certain band in the city who's playing I love... they have their own sound and I really enjoy it. They have the best guitar player I have heard and musically speaking they are brilliant. Even if people don't play exactly like Denis Murphy in the city I still enjoy them and their tunes. Now if Kevin Henry was having some tunes next door I would most likely be over there with him. There's loads of good music in the city but things could be better. I cannot turn off the influences I've had or ignore my preferences. And for honesties sake I've emailed this thread to a few people who play in the city and we'll see if I'm still welcomed at their sessions.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Murphy wrote: "I find the guitar reduces the music to the lowest possible denominator."
Then he wrote: "They have the best guitar player I have heard"
I give up Murphy... now you're just contradicting yourself.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
No I haven't... the best guitar is still a guitar and the affect on the music is still the same.
I appologize for the hijacking of this thread. Gilder has an unfailing ability to make himself the center of things and I have fallen for his trap.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Dear me,
Last time I looked I thought this wasn't a bad thread.
Returning to the theme, mention of Cathal reminded me of the Boys of the Lough line-up with Dave Richardson,Robin Morton, Cathal and Aly Bain.
I quite liked that band, particularly their live albums, and they didn't use much chordal accompaniment. I would differentiate between percussion and a chordal instrument. Sometimes they used concertinas to accompany, and Dave did a bit of strumming on the cittern but it was largely melody playing plus bodhran. An underrated band in some ways. I quite liked Tich's guitar playing, but it changed the character of the music completely, and I didn't really listen to them much after that, particularly when they later added piano.
In retrospect, they were slightly overshadowed by the Bothies' all systems go approach, but they were really good. I wonder how they would fare nowadays with that old line-up?
Dagger
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by CWGordon
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
You're right, Dagger. Dick Gaughan tended to play a lot of melody when he was in the band too. I can't really remember them with Mike. Apparently, he left in March 1972 and The Boys played at Inverness Folk Festival that year. I honestly can't recall whether it was Mike or Dick in that line up. A great concert, though.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Dear me,
Last time I looked I thought this was quite a dull thread. It's got lots more fun. Everybody loves a good spat.
Looking at this from a point of view of not knowing either contender, there are a couple of points of logic that need cleared up.
Mr Jack Murphy in the "old" corner (though he's only 22) has one fundamental thing wrong:
Yes, saying, "People who watch to much tv and eat poorly have a big chance of becoming overweight," is an observation. But, "Saying music has changed, saying the guitar changes the music and offering my opinion that the music was better back then," is an opinion. Sorry mate.
The other thing is, that Mr Murphy does not seem to understand, is that the best of the music from the old days is still present in the best of the new music. It didn't stop when the guitar was introduced, it adapted. To say it's different is too simplistic, it evolved.
It's like saying humans are different to gorillas. Yet we share more than 99% of our DNA. Why waste time arguing about that less than 1% when we can glory in the similarities.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Ah Dagger, good man for bringing back happy memories of one of my favourite bands 'Boys of the Lough'.
With that line up of "Dave Richardson, Robin Morton, Cathal and Aly Bain", I think they were one of the few outfits who managed to bring the pure drop onto a concert platform without falling into the trap, & feeling they had to tart it up!
Their early albums are still a joy to listen to.
Oh yeah, can you just clarify one thing for me MG, in your opinion, which one of them looks more like a Gorilla?
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
ha ha, I'll leave that to some one who's met them.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
You obviously must be talking about the gorillas, as I'm sure you've met all these boys.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I sometimes got issues with the guitar, but not on the same level my good friend Jack Murphy has. Jack has trained is ear with old style music, listening to many old recordings. I really respect his taste in the old style, but I think I'm more like half way between the old style and modern style. I listen a lot to session recordings I made or got from someone else with people like Mike Rafferty, June McCormack, Maeve Donnelly, Jerry O'Sullican, Brian McNamara, etc.
Anyway, I think that guitar backing can be very nice if the guitar player, like any other musician, treats the music with respect. A guitar player should *know* the tune he's backing, or at least *listen* to the tune once before making any attempt to back it, unless he knows it. Also, the guitar should *not* be loud. ITM is about melody, you don't want a guitar to hack it's way through.
I would play tunes with guitar players like Paul De Grae (just a good example) anytime. But 90% of guitars players I met didnt meet my personnal standards, but then I could say the same about other instruments.
The reality these days is that people, some of them not being really talented or just impatient, want to play like Lunasa, Solas, Seamus Egan, McGoldrick, so they want to play fast, rush their phrasing, don't take the time to really listen, and it creates a mess. I was at the Ennis Festival beginning of the month, and it's pretty much what it was about. There are many exceptions of course.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Azalin
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
This thread reminds me of one from the past that Zina started called, "Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3253/comments
It sounds like we now have some Seamus Duffys in training here in the session.org.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"It's like saying humans are different to gorillas. Yet we share more than 99% of our DNA. Why waste time arguing about that less than 1% when we can glory in the similarities."
How many people do you know who like being called a gorilla?
KFG
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Relax.
It's chimps' DNA that is the closest match to ours. Gorilla DNA is way out there near the WWE.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I watched something on TV the other day about the whole chimp/man DNA thing. Chimps are violent, aggressive -- and even cannibalistic. This is a fascinating topic, but probably not in an ITM forum. Monkeys on the other hand would be quite on topic. Give 100 monkeys ITM instruments and they'll eventually have a session... and start a website about it... and some of them will make gross negative generalizations about how other monkeys don't play it right.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Is that an attempt at the last word? Calling me an monkey or a Seamus Duffy in training? Come on, surely you needed result to name calling when there's so many other aspects of my playing that you haven't insulted.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It's funny though, this thread is titled "Have we 'ruined our ears' or corrupted our youth..." and when you agree you are seen as insulting the whole world and then compared to apes and monkeys. I guess it's no wonder that those making this comparison are the ones resorting to personnal, immature, targeted insults. Extremism is everywhere, hey?
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Azalin
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Youse boys need to shut up and take it off-site. This is ridiculous.
chris smith
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by coyotebanjo
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"It's chimps' DNA that is the closest match to ours."
Oh Jeez, now that's a comfort. Gorillas are much better behaved than chimps.
Fortunately we're about 50% banana.
And at this point I agree with Chris.
KFG
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I agree with Chris as well. The insults have no place in this forum. That was my point.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
So you insult me to prove your point? Good standard hypocritcal thinking there...
I will repect the board and that is my last comment on this subject matter.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by JackMurphy
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Good to see that rabid, fundimentalist, intolerent bullsh*t isn't restricted only to religion. Dear oh dear. How totally pathetic.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by woops
Re: Have we "ruined our post" or corrupted our Jacks with our desire for bananas?
Jack or Jack? What's this "Phantom Button" stuff?
When did anybody overdub backup?
In the old days there wasn't much in the way of backup - maybe on stage in America, there are a few mentions of piano or even banjo or mandolin. People in Ireland were barely able to afford a melody instrument in the first place - I've always wondered if stringed instruments were available in shops in the late 19th, like store-bought fiddles etc.
Backup has changed the way people play, having recordings around has affected things too! I'm glad I've been privileged to hear the old boys years after they went to their reward - they were great, and distinct from what you hear now. I think every record should have some pure solo playing too - so people get to hear what it's like. Maybe they could pass a law...anyway for me all this Bothy Bandage might as well be a different genre entirely, like thrash metal, or what Patton Oswald calls "Tibetan Scream-Singing." "Going to the Luanasa concert?" "Nah, I'd rather go hear some Scream-Singing."
Resume p*ss-fest.
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by KLR
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"ante hoc ergo superior hoc."
Somebody could probably correct my Latin but ya get the gist.
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Is that anything like the holy handgrenade of ante hoc?
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by Q
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
"What's this "Phantom Button" stuff?"
It's the latest concertina revalation I've had -- and it's a doozy. There was a button I saw the masters playing for ages that I finally found, (thanks to Pat Egan,) and it's a button that isn't really there. I call it the Phantom Button. Anglo concertina players might know what I'm talking about.
Kevin, I agree that the old stuff is great, but that doesn't have to mean that the contemporary players are crap... or does it?
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Nyuk.
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by The Weekenders
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hi Weekenders, welcome to the session.org.
It looks like Murphy's sendingl his pals from C&F to come and see how he's denounced all ITM musicians between the age of 30 and 60 along with the guitar players. He's pretty slick, eh fellas? Impressed?
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
” I have never once in a public setting commented on your shortcomings as a player and as a person and I will keep it that way. The internet is not the place to fling insults.”
Brilliant !!
Now my English wouldn’t be great, but is that an oxymoron or a paradox ?
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
There was a time when I used to be alarmed when my threads turned out like this. Nowadays, I just have a nice satisfied grin to myself
"It's nice to be nice, though!"
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Fin, I think it's called "bollix"...
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Enjoy your visit to "The Smoke", Zina.
Will you be staying for The Blythe session tomorrow to Danny on "his own turf" and "in full flow"?
Pity I can't manage down. You should have been in Edinburgh at the weekend. Guess who was there? Tommy Peoples!
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Zina, how did you get that word through the censor !!
Now my ears ARE corrupt !
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Because that's not how it's actually spelled, Fin?
Johnny J, sorry to have missed Tommy! What a lovely man he is... Unfortunately, can't make The Blythe tomorrow night -- had made previous plans to have Thanksgiving with friends of Helen's...
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
It is where I'm from !
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by BegF
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Hello all,
To return to the start of this thread (before it undid years of work by the San Francisco Tourist Board...), in my opinion Tommy Peoples IS the answer to the whole issue - you could almost take An Gleann Ciuin/The Quiet Glen as accompanied or unaccompanied depending on your definition/mood/taste - beautiful work by Alfie Duggan - I definitely do not feel corrupted by this album.... and while I'm on the subject, John J I agree with you about his standard of playing, having recently seen him solo too - could he perhaps have committed the awful sin of maturing as a player???
Good luck all.
# Posted on November 23rd 2005 by hurleystick
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I am a 45 year old guitar player and since I'm right in the middle of this controversy (60+30/2 = 45) I need to put in my 2 cents in defense of my generation.
Wow, what a spirited debate!!
All I can say is just listen, then play, then talk (or shout if that's your style.) Don't do these three things in a different order.
The only thing that can and should often be left out is 'talk" or "shout".
My gut tells me that the younger Jack in the above comments needs to work on steps 1 and 2 for a number of years more
before making further declarations regarding the corruption of the music.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by halfwaythere
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I have come across Irish musicians that said that accompinament was traditional in their areas, and some musicians that said it wasn't, so depends where they come from, I think it was a lot to do with the Scots influence.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by tirvaluk
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Well, I expected to hear arguments from both sides and I reckoned that there would be many(like myself)who enjoy both approaches and various ones in between! It was also probable that others wouldn't have been particularly interested at all.
However, I never expected the discussion to get so heated and personal or spawning subsequent threads.
In some ways it is quite amusing but *really* it's a shame. I'm honestly not that evil at all.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by John J.
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
Actually, I didn't have much at stake with the premise of this thread since I enjoy all the periods of this form of traditional music. I wasn't challenging the person who started the thread, but rather the person who insulted the majority of the members here with his errant contributions. Maybe the discussion was "couched" as David points out, but I don't really see it as a valid excuse for that sort of thing.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Have we "ruined our ears" or corrupted our youth with our desire for accompaniment?
I should again clarify that I didn't necessarily think that one style was better than the other. In fact, I hope that I made it clear that I appreciated both.
My main argument(well, actually more of a suggestion) was that those people who have known nothing else other than accompanied music may, for one reason or other, be unable to appreciate solo playing to the same extent. I was actually pleasantly surprised when so many younger players, including the "other Jack" still appreciated things "the old way".
However, I didn't really intend for there to be a dispute as to which way was best because I don't think you can really claim that either is better or worse. They're just different.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by John J.