Variety, variation - how do you achieve it? Probably a classic beginners question this, but I'm finding that when I learn a tune, I keep playing it the way I learned it. As a flute player, if I learned it from Grey Larsen's book/CD I play it the way he played it, if I learned it from a tutor at a workshop I play it the way they played it, if I learned it from listening to Top Of Coom... I wish
We are encouraged to learn by ear, but most of the time the tunes we hear are embellished in some way... how do you learn a tune and then separate the 'tune' from the interpretation - I end up playing more or less the same thing over and over.
It's easier with the popular tunes. Onceyyou've learned the tune listen to other recordings for variations. Learn those, if you read , consult all the books. Listen to players of other instruments, try to do that. Frequently you can find varitations posted in "TUNES" > "comments". If you download vs copy and paste, the variations will download on same page.
You may be stuck with playing the first time like Grey Larsen, the second like Matt Molloy, etc, for awhile but as yr perception of the tune expands, you find other ideas coming unbidden.
I suspect that as we listen, and listen, and listen (I'm in the same boat you are) that the brain starts subconsciously figuring out workable variations. . . what they are is functionally equivalent but melodically "deviant" possibilities for parts of a tune. I find I do this *too much* when learning a lot of similar tunes at the same time. EG Bank of Ireland and the Paddy Keenan version of Spike Island Lasses.
There are a few tunes I've consciously learned with variations on the repeats, but in a session half the time I either forget them or nobdoy can hear it anyway :(
" how do you learn a tune and then separate the 'tune' from the interpretation "
I don't necessarily, nor am I entirely sure why I would want to. The 'tune' is what I am playing, or, in a session situation, what the other people are playing.
I guess I'd recommend a variation on Owell's advice, don't learn the tune at all until you have listen, listen, listened to as many different recordings/sessions of it as you possibly can. Then if you're going to learn it from the dots don't do it from a single source. Gather as many as you can and play them one after the other as if they were a sight reading exercise instead of memorizing a single source.
A tune is a pretty fluid thing and the only vaguely valid test for whether or not you are playing it "correctly" is if you can identify it when you hear it. Do what you can to prevent yourself from thinking of the tune as a set "score" in the first place.
Then spend some time playing the tune very slowly and trying s*** out. Put different ornaments in different places. Change the rhythm dramatically. If a phrase is note, up a fourth, note, try it note, down a fourth, note.
If you want to get analytical about it look at the Bach "teaching" works and see how he varies a simple theme. It's pretty much the same way Irish tunes are varied.
Yep, KFG, I was addressing tunes known but already set in concrete. I tend to view a tune as a species, and the event of the tune being played as a specimen. So it's going to have a lot of genetic similarities, but still be an individual.
I have always found tunes easier to play WITH if I've learned them by ear.... or memory: which is learning to play them when they become earworms. I have had pretty good success lately by looping a tune, letting it play while I do my email or other deadly serious computer work like solitaire. If I have a bunch of recordings of the target tune I'll line 'em up on in an iTunes folder and let 'em roll. The point is to get so bored with the input that you ignore it, that way it goes into your subconscious Then a couple of weeks later it re-emerges as an earworm. You DO have it memorized in there somewhere and can slow it down. and sing along. Then find it on the flute (or Whatever) and as Gilles Chabenat sez "Don't just play the tune, play with the tune." Another trick I like to play, when I'm speeding it up is point it like a strathspey and faster as a hornpipe. This helps to ability to turn swing on or off as needed.
wormdiet : I quit trying to learn multiple tunes after I tried "Wind that Shakes the Barley "and "Maid Behind the Bar" I think I have the 2 straightened out now, but still get a hint of "Salley Garden" with either.
Thanks guys - these suggestions make a lot of sense. They are also daunting - just when I'm thinking I'm getting somewhere a whole new sphere of complexity opens up Still that's the fun, always something else to learn I guess. I think my problem is that I still maybe have a slightly wrong model, from a classical tradition of 'theme and variations' I'm always trying to work out what the canonical tune 'really' is on which to base variations - I'm getting the feeling from your responses that it's not as clear cut as that.
"...if I learned it from Grey Larsen's book/CD I play it the way he played it, if I learned it from a tutor at a workshop I play it the way they played it, if I learned it from listening to Top Of Coom..."
If you learn the same tune from several sources, it will eventually be too much work for your brain to play each version exactly as you learnt it, and you'll end up getting them all mixed up and playing your own version, whether you like it or not. That's how it works for me, anyway.
Neil, nobody's mentioned that slow airs are a rich source of potential embellishment. This site does't cope with slow airs, but there are a few around on the net. There have also been a few slow air ITM source books, and one came out just recently with a CD. I've been striving to learn "Taimse i'm'Chodladh" but I already have fun with "The Dear Irish Boy" and "The Little Red Lark".
go to a session and just sit-yes i know its hard-and when they play a tune you know flip on my best friend, my little tape recorder,[you have one right? i hope you do!], and then listen for variations. THen bring the tape home afterwards, and try to play with the tape.
OOORRR-go out and buy about 50 irish cds with the tunes you know on them and use those. THen go beg your friends for a loan to help pay for them. Then spend the rest of of your life busking to pay of those loans.
OOORRR ask some of your music-playing friends what they do.
If those don't work-well-i don't know. Just don't sue me!
The spice of life
The spice of life
Variety, variation - how do you achieve it? Probably a classic beginners question this, but I'm finding that when I learn a tune, I keep playing it the way I learned it. As a flute player, if I learned it from Grey Larsen's book/CD I play it the way he played it, if I learned it from a tutor at a workshop I play it the way they played it, if I learned it from listening to Top Of Coom... I wish
We are encouraged to learn by ear, but most of the time the tunes we hear are embellished in some way... how do you learn a tune and then separate the 'tune' from the interpretation - I end up playing more or less the same thing over and over.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by NeilC
Re: The spice of life
It's easier with the popular tunes. Onceyyou've learned the tune listen to other recordings for variations. Learn those, if you read , consult all the books. Listen to players of other instruments, try to do that. Frequently you can find varitations posted in "TUNES" > "comments". If you download vs copy and paste, the variations will download on same page.
You may be stuck with playing the first time like Grey Larsen, the second like Matt Molloy, etc, for awhile but as yr perception of the tune expands, you find other ideas coming unbidden.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: The spice of life
I suspect that as we listen, and listen, and listen (I'm in the same boat you are) that the brain starts subconsciously figuring out workable variations. . . what they are is functionally equivalent but melodically "deviant" possibilities for parts of a tune. I find I do this *too much* when learning a lot of similar tunes at the same time. EG Bank of Ireland and the Paddy Keenan version of Spike Island Lasses.
There are a few tunes I've consciously learned with variations on the repeats, but in a session half the time I either forget them or nobdoy can hear it anyway :(
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: The spice of life
" how do you learn a tune and then separate the 'tune' from the interpretation "
I don't necessarily, nor am I entirely sure why I would want to. The 'tune' is what I am playing, or, in a session situation, what the other people are playing.
I guess I'd recommend a variation on Owell's advice, don't learn the tune at all until you have listen, listen, listened to as many different recordings/sessions of it as you possibly can. Then if you're going to learn it from the dots don't do it from a single source. Gather as many as you can and play them one after the other as if they were a sight reading exercise instead of memorizing a single source.
A tune is a pretty fluid thing and the only vaguely valid test for whether or not you are playing it "correctly" is if you can identify it when you hear it. Do what you can to prevent yourself from thinking of the tune as a set "score" in the first place.
Then spend some time playing the tune very slowly and trying s*** out. Put different ornaments in different places. Change the rhythm dramatically. If a phrase is note, up a fourth, note, try it note, down a fourth, note.
If you want to get analytical about it look at the Bach "teaching" works and see how he varies a simple theme. It's pretty much the same way Irish tunes are varied.
KFG
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: The spice of life
Yep, KFG, I was addressing tunes known but already set in concrete. I tend to view a tune as a species, and the event of the tune being played as a specimen. So it's going to have a lot of genetic similarities, but still be an individual.
I have always found tunes easier to play WITH if I've learned them by ear.... or memory: which is learning to play them when they become earworms. I have had pretty good success lately by looping a tune, letting it play while I do my email or other deadly serious computer work like solitaire. If I have a bunch of recordings of the target tune I'll line 'em up on in an iTunes folder and let 'em roll. The point is to get so bored with the input that you ignore it, that way it goes into your subconscious Then a couple of weeks later it re-emerges as an earworm. You DO have it memorized in there somewhere and can slow it down. and sing along. Then find it on the flute (or Whatever) and as Gilles Chabenat sez "Don't just play the tune, play with the tune." Another trick I like to play, when I'm speeding it up is point it like a strathspey and faster as a hornpipe. This helps to ability to turn swing on or off as needed.
wormdiet : I quit trying to learn multiple tunes after I tried "Wind that Shakes the Barley "and "Maid Behind the Bar" I think I have the 2 straightened out now, but still get a hint of "Salley Garden" with either.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: The spice of life
Thanks guys - these suggestions make a lot of sense. They are also daunting - just when I'm thinking I'm getting somewhere a whole new sphere of complexity opens up
Still that's the fun, always something else to learn I guess. I think my problem is that I still maybe have a slightly wrong model, from a classical tradition of 'theme and variations' I'm always trying to work out what the canonical tune 'really' is on which to base variations - I'm getting the feeling from your responses that it's not as clear cut as that.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by NeilC
Re: The spice of life
"...if I learned it from Grey Larsen's book/CD I play it the way he played it, if I learned it from a tutor at a workshop I play it the way they played it, if I learned it from listening to Top Of Coom..."
If you learn the same tune from several sources, it will eventually be too much work for your brain to play each version exactly as you learnt it, and you'll end up getting them all mixed up and playing your own version, whether you like it or not. That's how it works for me, anyway.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The spice of life
Quirl, I like that, and it's a great excuse to buy more CDs!
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by NeilC
Re: The spice of life
Excuses? Excuses? We don't need no steenking excuses!
We need money.
KFG
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: The spice of life
So hand your money over to me now whilst I chat on my cell-phone with my get-away driver. . .
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by musicfan
Re: The spice of life
I completely agree with KFG. I NEED MONEY . We all do. Never enough gigs to go around.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Red Crow
Re: The spice of life
So we can spend our earnings on instruments of course.
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Red Crow
Re: The spice of life
Neil, nobody's mentioned that slow airs are a rich source of potential embellishment. This site does't cope with slow airs, but there are a few around on the net. There have also been a few slow air ITM source books, and one came out just recently with a CD. I've been striving to learn "Taimse i'm'Chodladh" but I already have fun with "The Dear Irish Boy" and "The Little Red Lark".
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
Re: The spice of life
what are those sites Innocent Bystander?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: The spice of life
go to a session and just sit-yes i know its hard-and when they play a tune you know flip on my best friend, my little tape recorder,[you have one right? i hope you do!], and then listen for variations. THen bring the tape home afterwards, and try to play with the tape.
OOORRR-go out and buy about 50 irish cds with the tunes you know on them and use those. THen go beg your friends for a loan to help pay for them. Then spend the rest of of your life busking to pay of those loans.
OOORRR ask some of your music-playing friends what they do.
If those don't work-well-i don't know. Just don't sue me!
# Posted on November 21st 2005 by CELTICCHEF83