Our local session lately has been attracting an over abundance of rhythm players. Several guitars, several Bohdran players, ect...
They are all very nice people and it's nice to see their interest in the music. But it really muddys up the music when there are 2 or 3 guitars playing and a couple of Bohdran players going at the same time, all with good intentions and enjoying what they are doing, but really taking away from the drive of the music. Just curious how everyone else handles the rhythm at your sessions.
I've seen it handled several ways. None of the them work perfectly; most of them aren't very nice and call for being tough, cruel or passive aggressive. All of them depend on the delivery.
The Passive Aggressive Approach:
Single out the best guitar player, and best bodhran player, and be super friendly to him or her, while ignoring the others. Save them a seat nearest the table, leaving the other backers out at the periphery. Do not make eye contact with them, except to glare, or speak to them or include them in round-buying. If one sits next to you, hold your nose and flap your hand at them in disgust. Hope they get the message and go away.
The H.A. Approach
Have the proprietor or landlord be the bad cop, sussing out and turfing superfluous backers.
The Patronising Session Manager Approach
Manage the flow of the session by being forthright and oblivious to sensitivies by addressing the problem directly: Look you lot, there are too many of you. One of each backing instrument at a time. Preferably X and Y, who are the least awful of yez. Rest of you, learn a melody instrument if you really want to take part.
The session guerilla method:
Every time a backer isn't looking, untune their guitar or steal their tipper. Make it look like one of the other backers did it.
Suzuki method
Drive over their instruments with your motorbike
Dunno about the nice ways. Never seen any in action.
That said, I've been to plenty of sessions where there are more than one of each backing instrument, and the players have been very respectful of the session dynamic as a whole, and of each other, deferring politely and - with guitarists, anway, picking out the melody when someone else is playing rhythm.
We sometimes have 2 or 3 Bodhran players & at least one, sometimes 2 Guitars & a Bouzouki & I don't really find it a problem.
We always make an effort to group the melody players together & that way we can keep in touch with da tunes.
Must say Q, I like the sound of that Suzuki method. I can just picture a 750 tearing around our pub, crashing into Guitars & over the top of Bodhrans - Cool.
What a fantastic way to end a session!
Beats those tired old 'Tunes for the Road', every time!
Nice post, Q. Obviously you must be quite high in the spying business. Tell M I was asking for her. I quite agree with your descriptions of dealing with batterers. I tend to take your first option, passive-aggressive, which you describe very accurately. I do all the things you mention, apart from nose-holding and hand-flapping. Does that make me a bad person?
John Duignan from near Strokestown once sung these words to the tune of "Hit me with your rhythm stick":
"Batter with your bodhran beater, batter me, batter me
Beat me now then batter me later, batter me"
I think if all the guitarists are playing at the same time then they are not listening to th music.I'm a guitarist and if there is another one at a session then i quite happily sit out sets.Nobody accompanies a tune in the same way,therefore if 3or 4 players are going at it then it's gonna sound muddy.I've been to sessions and not played before now cos there was another accompanist or 2 and they wouldn't stop playing.It's as if they feel they have to compete or prove something.All they are proving to me is that they don't listen to the Music.As for bohdrans,I'm lucky enough not to have been in a session where there is more than one player lol.
I agree wiht Meri. Furthermore, in a big session, with a guitarist or zoukist at each end, the backers may well be listening to what the box player or banjo player next to them is playing, but not to each other, so there's no telling what it might sound like to the players in the middle, or to the listeners. There is always the option of 'reading' each other's fingers, but this seems to me far too much like hard work - it necessitates an extra cognitive stage, which is bound to detract from the flow of the music.
One solution to an excess of backers is to politely suggest that the participants are becomeing a little numerous and perhaps they might like to start their own session in the back room. Even better, all the tune players, and perhaps a selected backer, simultaneously nip out for a pee and don't come back (toilets always have the best acoustics).
Well, for the most part, the issue of the pain-in-the-butt backup players will never be "solved".
It's always going to be a pretentious war between the high and mighty Melody Players, and the lowly Common Folk backers.
But it’s all about Common Courtesy and Session Etiquette – and it always has been.
I’ve been to numerous sessions where the majority of the melody players were something like four fiddles, two mandos, three flutes, four whistles – and pure cacophony reigned with all the melody players having to get themselves heard above each other.
The only solution I’ve been aware of is a lot like “Q” said above (after all the violence), which is:
1. Showing Common Courtesy, and
2. Forcing Common Courtesy – by a session leader who has the maturity to graciously manage a gaggle of musicians.
All the regular session players know there is session protocol and there is session etiquette.
Some of the better session leaders pass out a pamphlet stating this to newcomers, and then the regular players kindly help to see to it that Everyone follows the plan and gets a bit of a chance to play.
You can’t replace common courtesy and session etiquette with anything other than Strong leadership and Cooperation between the players.
It ain’t rocket science.
I’m so tired of all this melody vs backup gumbolla. Good Lord, it never ends!
Many views above are spot on. No need to expand more.
However I will mention a session a few years ago with Phil Dawson who was mentioned in a thread a short while back (See "Learning a tune" Trevor Jennings 29th October).
Well, I'd travelled to Bristol to The Kingsdown Vaults with Tony 'Pru" Comer to meet up with Phil. Besides Pru, there turned up 5 other guitarists and 6 bodhrans. Rent a tune, get a session.
Pru hardly played all night; as he said, there wasn't much point, and they weren't listening to each other. It was ahrd sitting close to a fiddle to hear what was being played!
Play some tunes in 7/8 or other Balkan genre. That sorts out the sheep-bangers from the goat-bangers.
Last week, a clown appeared in session who insisted in playing box very legato - all the notes joined up. We played a set with tunes with lots of "gaps" in (musical term for rests) and of course he carried on all by himself. He soon got the message and quietened down.
Did have a session in Hobart hijacked last year by someone who turned up and started playing 7/4 & 11/8 tunes, encouraging a fiddler to play along.
Someone, not me, pointed out that it was Trad Irish Session, and although other tunes were nice to hear now and then etc....the reply was that nobody else wanted to have Macedonian Sessions to which the originally very polite person then "instructed"' this mandolin/bouzouki player to find another *##@*** session!
As a goatwhacker, if I'm in a crowded session I'll play less stuff, just adding to the overall sound of the tune if I can. If I can't hear anything for me to do, I won't do anything.
But sometimes I'm sure my enthusiasm gets the better of me!
General point is - Tunes v. Rhythm isn't the issue, it's listeners vs. non-listeners.
To much Rhythm
To much Rhythm
Our local session lately has been attracting an over abundance of rhythm players. Several guitars, several Bohdran players, ect...
They are all very nice people and it's nice to see their interest in the music. But it really muddys up the music when there are 2 or 3 guitars playing and a couple of Bohdran players going at the same time, all with good intentions and enjoying what they are doing, but really taking away from the drive of the music. Just curious how everyone else handles the rhythm at your sessions.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Tom
Re: To much Rhythm
They're in rhythm? You're lucky ...
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Conway
Re: To much Rhythm
I've seen it handled several ways. None of the them work perfectly; most of them aren't very nice and call for being tough, cruel or passive aggressive. All of them depend on the delivery.
The Passive Aggressive Approach:
Single out the best guitar player, and best bodhran player, and be super friendly to him or her, while ignoring the others. Save them a seat nearest the table, leaving the other backers out at the periphery. Do not make eye contact with them, except to glare, or speak to them or include them in round-buying. If one sits next to you, hold your nose and flap your hand at them in disgust. Hope they get the message and go away.
The H.A. Approach
Have the proprietor or landlord be the bad cop, sussing out and turfing superfluous backers.
The Patronising Session Manager Approach
Manage the flow of the session by being forthright and oblivious to sensitivies by addressing the problem directly: Look you lot, there are too many of you. One of each backing instrument at a time. Preferably X and Y, who are the least awful of yez. Rest of you, learn a melody instrument if you really want to take part.
The session guerilla method:
Every time a backer isn't looking, untune their guitar or steal their tipper. Make it look like one of the other backers did it.
Suzuki method
Drive over their instruments with your motorbike
Dunno about the nice ways. Never seen any in action.
That said, I've been to plenty of sessions where there are more than one of each backing instrument, and the players have been very respectful of the session dynamic as a whole, and of each other, deferring politely and - with guitarists, anway, picking out the melody when someone else is playing rhythm.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Q
Re: To much Rhythm
Train a dog to run away with bodhran tippers and p*ss into the guitar hole. Then, being to prototype of courage and bravery, blame it on the dog. (^:
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: To much Rhythm
We sometimes have 2 or 3 Bodhran players & at least one, sometimes 2 Guitars & a Bouzouki & I don't really find it a problem.
We always make an effort to group the melody players together & that way we can keep in touch with da tunes.
Must say Q, I like the sound of that Suzuki method. I can just picture a 750 tearing around our pub, crashing into Guitars & over the top of Bodhrans - Cool.
What a fantastic way to end a session!
Beats those tired old 'Tunes for the Road', every time!
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: To much Rhythm
I recommend the "Blutarsky" approach.
# Posted on November 12th 2005 by pbassnote
Re: To much Rhythm
Nice post, Q. Obviously you must be quite high in the spying business. Tell M I was asking for her. I quite agree with your descriptions of dealing with batterers. I tend to take your first option, passive-aggressive, which you describe very accurately. I do all the things you mention, apart from nose-holding and hand-flapping. Does that make me a bad person?
John Duignan from near Strokestown once sung these words to the tune of "Hit me with your rhythm stick":
"Batter with your bodhran beater, batter me, batter me
Beat me now then batter me later, batter me"
# Posted on November 13th 2005 by howsshecutting
Re: To much Rhythm
I think if all the guitarists are playing at the same time then they are not listening to th music.I'm a guitarist and if there is another one at a session then i quite happily sit out sets.Nobody accompanies a tune in the same way,therefore if 3or 4 players are going at it then it's gonna sound muddy.I've been to sessions and not played before now cos there was another accompanist or 2 and they wouldn't stop playing.It's as if they feel they have to compete or prove something.All they are proving to me is that they don't listen to the Music.As for bohdrans,I'm lucky enough not to have been in a session where there is more than one player lol.
# Posted on November 13th 2005 by meri-lawes
Re: To much Rhythm
I agree wiht Meri. Furthermore, in a big session, with a guitarist or zoukist at each end, the backers may well be listening to what the box player or banjo player next to them is playing, but not to each other, so there's no telling what it might sound like to the players in the middle, or to the listeners. There is always the option of 'reading' each other's fingers, but this seems to me far too much like hard work - it necessitates an extra cognitive stage, which is bound to detract from the flow of the music.
One solution to an excess of backers is to politely suggest that the participants are becomeing a little numerous and perhaps they might like to start their own session in the back room. Even better, all the tune players, and perhaps a selected backer, simultaneously nip out for a pee and don't come back (toilets always have the best acoustics).
# Posted on November 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: To much Rhythm
Guitars aren't exclusively chordal...one guitarist can accompany, while the other plays the tune.
# Posted on November 13th 2005 by mcswiss
Re: To much Rhythm
Hello,
Well, for the most part, the issue of the pain-in-the-butt backup players will never be "solved".
It's always going to be a pretentious war between the high and mighty Melody Players, and the lowly Common Folk backers.
But it’s all about Common Courtesy and Session Etiquette – and it always has been.
I’ve been to numerous sessions where the majority of the melody players were something like four fiddles, two mandos, three flutes, four whistles – and pure cacophony reigned with all the melody players having to get themselves heard above each other.
The only solution I’ve been aware of is a lot like “Q” said above (after all the violence), which is:
1. Showing Common Courtesy, and
2. Forcing Common Courtesy – by a session leader who has the maturity to graciously manage a gaggle of musicians.
All the regular session players know there is session protocol and there is session etiquette.
Some of the better session leaders pass out a pamphlet stating this to newcomers, and then the regular players kindly help to see to it that Everyone follows the plan and gets a bit of a chance to play.
You can’t replace common courtesy and session etiquette with anything other than Strong leadership and Cooperation between the players.
It ain’t rocket science.
I’m so tired of all this melody vs backup gumbolla. Good Lord, it never ends!
Greg
# Posted on November 13th 2005 by Greg
Re: To much Rhythm
....session leaders pass out a pamphlet....
What a great idea! A phmphlet is so impersonal that no one would feel personally attacked. What would be in this publication?
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by feardearg
Re: To much Rhythm
Many views above are spot on. No need to expand more.
However I will mention a session a few years ago with Phil Dawson who was mentioned in a thread a short while back (See "Learning a tune" Trevor Jennings 29th October).
Well, I'd travelled to Bristol to The Kingsdown Vaults with Tony 'Pru" Comer to meet up with Phil. Besides Pru, there turned up 5 other guitarists and 6 bodhrans. Rent a tune, get a session.
Pru hardly played all night; as he said, there wasn't much point, and they weren't listening to each other. It was ahrd sitting close to a fiddle to hear what was being played!
Maybe that's an example of too much rhythm.
Brianx
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: To much Rhythm
Play some tunes in 7/8 or other Balkan genre. That sorts out the sheep-bangers from the goat-bangers.
Last week, a clown appeared in session who insisted in playing box very legato - all the notes joined up. We played a set with tunes with lots of "gaps" in (musical term for rests) and of course he carried on all by himself. He soon got the message and quietened down.
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: To much Rhythm
Too many bad rhythm players? I guess I can put up with that for a couple of hours. Most of these incompetents only come around once in a blue moon.
Every once in a while though I daydream about using the Blutarsky method on the worst offenders.
# Posted on November 14th 2005 by Hanley
Re: To much Rhythm
the budist metod:
Just leave the session. Thats what I do when my dog become too nervious and agressive playing the bohdram.
# Posted on November 15th 2005 by fer
Re: To much Rhythm
Did have a session in Hobart hijacked last year by someone who turned up and started playing 7/4 & 11/8 tunes, encouraging a fiddler to play along.
Someone, not me, pointed out that it was Trad Irish Session, and although other tunes were nice to hear now and then etc....the reply was that nobody else wanted to have Macedonian Sessions to which the originally very polite person then "instructed"' this mandolin/bouzouki player to find another *##@*** session!
Brianx
# Posted on November 15th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: To much Rhythm
I just posted a reply to this thread and ir disappeared. This is just a test. Sorry!
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by greenman
Re: To much Rhythm
OK. It works - start again.
Interesting and amusing thread!
As a goatwhacker, if I'm in a crowded session I'll play less stuff, just adding to the overall sound of the tune if I can. If I can't hear anything for me to do, I won't do anything.
But sometimes I'm sure my enthusiasm gets the better of me!
General point is - Tunes v. Rhythm isn't the issue, it's listeners vs. non-listeners.
That dog's just run off with my tipper
# Posted on November 17th 2005 by greenman