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The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
If you were to ask any musician at any session in Ireland what they thought of Steve Cooney or Arty McGlynn, Tony McManus or Chris Newman you could expect a range of positive answers like,
Genius Brilliant,Superb, or very occasionally, Who?
These four musicians along with a host of others including Mícheal Ní Domhnaill, John Doyle, Mark Kelly, Paul McSherry and Jim Murray have championed the cause of the guitar in Irish music. The list of CDs they're on goes into the hundreds. However, away from the bright lights of the stage or the eerie silence of the recoding studio Irish music lives and breathes in the corners of pubs throughout Ireland. The session is a human channelling of the thousands of tunes floating around us all at any time.
To gauge the guitar's esteem or lack of it, the session is the best place to look.
Most sessions will probably comprise of a selection from this range of instruments and people i.e. flute, fiddle, banjo, pipes, bodhran, concertina, whistle, bouzouki, mandolin, accordion piano key or button, singer, guitar/singer and guitar. I leave the guitar to last as I have come to learn that the guitar is lowest on the pecking order of instruments in the session. This may stem from the guitar's dubious parentage.
A very brief history
The guitar probably originated in Spain, where by the 16th century it was the counterpart among the middle and lower classes of the aristocracy's vihuela, an instrument of similar shape and ancestry with six double courses.
The guitar became popular in other European countries in the 16th and 17th centuries, and by the late 17th century a fifth course of strings had been added below the other four.
In the mid-18th century the guitar attained its modern form, when the double courses were made single and a sixth string was added above the lower five. Guitar makers in the 19th century broadened the body, increased the curve of the waist, thinned the belly, and changed the internal bracing. A modern machine head replaced the old wooden tuning pegs.
So its not Irish then? Nope!
This has a lot to do with the inherent snobbery regarding the guitar and Irish music in my opinion. Although the origins of most now 'trad' instruments are foreign it still is held against the guitar more than the others.
What goes on
Anyway, it seems to be the will of a higher power that the guitar player will sing. This is primarily down to the fact that the guitar is ideally suited to accompany the song and it is difficult to sing and play the flute simultaneously. At a session the musicians will belt into reels and jigs, hornpipes, slides and polkas and the guitar player/singer will accompany at varying degrees of skill using a selection of chords, tunings and timings! After a certain amount of time usually judgeable by the emptying of the pint glasses on the table the guitar player/singer will come into his own. He or she will sing a song either traditional, contemporary or self penned while the refilling of glasses goes on around. Most of the players will enjoy the song and the chance to get a good swallow of Guinness and the like and the music will start up again. This pattern will repeat itself for the rest of the night or until such times as the bar stays open and the musicians stay upright.
So what is the problem if all are happy? Personally and this is my opinion, the guitar deserves better treatment. I have found over many years playing that there are several types of guitar player.
a) The aforementioned half way house type. He or she is primarily a singer and uses the guitar to accompany the song. This is fine until they try to accompany the music. This will invariably happen as no one wants to sit in the midst of such music just holding a guitar. The trouble here is they use a very limited range of chords and have no real understanding of the music. The chords used in the songs are used ad nauseum behind the tunes. The timing can be iffy to say the least and the volume generally too loud. But in the informal atmosphere the other musicians are not likely to say anything for fear of being called an, 'arrogant bastard!' or some other blessing like that. This silence will neither improve the guitar player or the overall sound of the session.
b) Next is the dedicated singer who is 'not half bad' on the guitar. He or she will sing expertly and accompany themselves at a very competent level. They may use tuning variations like dropped D or DADGAD. They add vocal quality to the session and while a replenishing of pints goes on there is uncalled for order and respect. Generally they show a good knowledge of the music around and accompany it well. They use chords imaginatively and are willing to attempt some exotic notes. These musicians are the pioneers of the guitar comeback. Hard work in learning, expressed in this case through singing and self-accompaniment earn respect from the other session musicians.
c) The dedicated accompanist who sings occasionally. This person will have had a revelation at some point in their musical careers and decide that he or she will try to sound like a particular guitar player who has inspired them. While trying to emulate their guitar heroes they will be searching for their own take on the music. Generally, depending on their confidence, knowledge of the instrument and particular hero they add a drive or lift to the session. Some may get stuck in the imitation mode to the detriment of their own personality. What they will experience then will change from,
'Christ, a guitar player!' to 'Christ, another Cooney/McGlynn clone!' Their songs are usually very well accompanied and may include self-penned or traditional songs from guitar-based singers i.e. Dick Gaughan or Paul Brady. The refilling of pints doesn't bother them as they are concentrating too much on getting the accompaniment to the song just right.
d) The dedicated accompanist full stop. The serious guitar player who has spurned his right to sing. This person will be from one of the two major guitar schools i.e. Arty McGlynn or Steve Cooney. Their choice of influence will reflect their personality and self-confidence. The Arty McGlynn style could be likened to subtle strength. Their playing will be delicious and expertly executed yet non-committal or 'in check' able to offer more but not doing so. They know the neck intimately and employ bass string runs. The timing of the strumming is exquisite.
The Steve Cooney style may be described as a vibrant explosion of sound. This type of player will lift the ceiling off the pub if possible but aware at all times that the tune is all and never over stepping that boundary. The power comes from expert knowledge of the guitar neck, octaves, the capo and strong right hand strumming technique. Easy to spot as they will all use a nylon strung guitar to achieve that harp like vitality. Both these types of player will use blues, flamenco and jazz chords or any influence they think might add something to the guitar's role in the session.
Their own worst enemies
At least that's what is supposed to happen. Anyone who has bothered to learn the guitar and bring it to a session must be aware of the power they possess. Our friends in category (a) seem blissfully ignorant but at least they contribute a song. How many times have you seen the look amongst the melody makers when someone enters the pub with the big black case? The thoughts that can be read could range from,
'Aw Jesus the JCB,' although this is sometimes saved for piano key accordion players.
'Not another guitar player!,' as if the player had some music defying illness
Keep that f**kin case closed for God's sake!' thought in desperation as a 12 string Louden takes the air.
But why should this be the case? Surely Irish musicians are the Salthill of the earth? Well, I'm afraid that some guitar players are doing the rest of us a mighty disservice by not learning their instrument at a high enough level. Unfortunately, basic guitar can be learned quickly. In a matter of weeks a novice can handle several major chords without any knowledge of what key they belong to or their relative minors or scale patterns. What you have is a three/four chord maybe the odd minor chord wonder! And what delight he/she will take in the execution of the tunes. Timing is something the watch takes care of and there is no volume control whatsoever.
Now before I continue I must reiterate my belief that the guitar is an ACCOMPANYING instrument. By definition it should fit snugly BEHIND the tune and embellish the overall sound. There is no doubt that the session will flow perfectly well without the six strings. The guitars have no function at all without the music. One would reasonably conclude therefore that all care should be taken so as NOT to drown out or interfere with the energy and flow of the tune. Unfortunately this seems to be far from the norm. Pick any lead/melody instrument e.g. the fiddle.
I always try to imagine the practice required to coordinate the bowing, fingering and timing. It is not easy and only becomes so after many years of practice and listening and learning. Now imagine the fiddle player at a session with other like-minded musicians all ready to parade their knowledge of the music over several pints and craic. Just into the first set of tunes when from nowhere the sound of a rabid three chord buffoon bludgeoning chords in no discernable order at the wrong tempo and volume. The magic that tunes create around the players is immediately punctured like a deflating hot air balloon. The rest of the evening can be physically painful until that guitar player leaves having picked up the 'death vibe' from the other musicians or he breaks one of his many strings and has no replacement. Is it any wonder therefore that the guitar player is anticipated with some dread?
These opinions are based on the guitar player accompanying the tunes and nothing else. I am aware that most sessions can drift to include classical, blues or jazz solos when the guitar is unique. I am also aware that many guitar players can play the tunes on guitar equally as well as say a banjo player but that's not at issue here yet.
From these personal observations I felt the next step was to elicit the opinions of both guitar players and melody makers at various sessions around Ireland. I asked everyone the same question,
What do you think of the guitar in a session?
These then are some of their views: -
Catherine (McLean) Sands Flute, whistle player from Co Antrim
'A good guitar player can add to a session, give it lift and rhythm but a bad player can ruin it by spoiling the rhythm, drowning out the tunes and having no feel for the music.'
Stephen Leech Banjo and guitar/singer from Co Dublin
'I believe the guitar took over from the piano in the late 60's early 70's as the newer more mobile form of accompaniment especially with the up and coming and soon to be spearhead of our musical tradition.'
Oli Cechini - Piper, whistle player from Germany now Sydney via Dublin
'I always think B minor then A minor and fast as f**k!'
Any other opinions are gratefully received and will be used in this comment list. I've only started to record these opinions hence the few so far.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I find the current guitar debate somewhat mystifying as its place in the music can hardly be questioned by this stage. I have been playing with guitarists for almost 30 years. The only question is, as with all players, one of competence. Whilst I still personally prefer the bouzouki -- and the old six string Greek variety at that -- a good guitarist is most definitely a great addition to a session. But, to state the obvious, no accompaniment is required.Even 2 whistles make for a session, two guitars, unless the guitarists can play the tunes, do not. What I can say, very broadly speaking of course, is that the role of guitar is better understood in Ireland, if only because the Irish session is a much less forgiving environment than its US counterpart and flashy exhibitionists would soon be humbled.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
One instrument which vies with the guitar in the unpopularity stakes is the bodhrán, which is regarded by some as the ONLY truly Irish instrument - but that's another story.
On my visits to Ireland, I have been surprised by the abundance of very competent guitarists in sessions. Whilst they may not all be to my taste, I have been impressed by their technical ability, their knowledge of chords and how they relate to the melody - and many of them also play a melody instrument.
For an accompanist, perhaps more than any other kind of musician, restraint is the key. I have heard guitarists whose playing is technically flawless, they use every chord in the chordbook and more besides, each one "fitting" perfectly with the tune, but their cleverness detracts from the tune. There's a fine line between "lifting" a tune and "forcing" it in a direction it doesn't want to go in.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I've just read the earlier thread on guitars, but I thought I'd write my comments here since they're on the same subject. A lot of people seem to judge guiatrists on the basis of how many chords they know. There's nothing wrong with a three chord guitarist, so long as he/she plays those three chords well, in time, in the right places and when and where they fit, or else doesn't play them at all. The main things are being able to identify the key of the tune, knowing the 4 or 5 basic chords (e.g I, II, IV, V & VI for a major key) in each of the common keys, and knowing exactly where to put them.
On multiple accompanists: I always think that having two accompanists in a session is pointless unless they are sitting next to one another and each can hear or see exactly what the other is playing. In a 15-strong session, with a guitarist at each end, one may be playing away, oblivious to what the other is playing, but somebody in the middle will very likely be hearing two different sets if chords jarring against each other. On the other hand, two accompanists that are familiar with each other's style, who accompany each other as well as accompanying the tune, can be a great asset.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
That really was the biggest ever comment michael! Now lets see, I really believe that good guitar and bazouki backing really add something to a session, Its about personal taste isnt it? I wouldnt say that I really like the cooney/murray style, but I like the McGlynn style. There are a few fab backers in galway, really sweet and I love playing with them! And there is one fab backer in melbourne that I know of. I truly believe a good backer makes a session about %400 more enjoyable.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Aye Bridie its me. I've finally gone mad. Send us an email I can reply to 'cos I couldn't with your last one. Both girls doin well. Thanks for your reply it'll join the list now
All the best
Mick
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
As a flute player I love great accompaniment, whether that be piano, guitar, or bouzouki [and even the bodhrán!!]. Unfortunately too many exponents of these instruments don't bother to learn the tunes. The result is that for many accompanying players they only recognise 'the reel in D' or 'the jig in G' with little or no feel for the difference between the vast repertoire that is traditional music.
Why is it that one expects the flute player to know the tune but that many guitarists think that all that is needed is to be in the rough vicinity of the key that the tune is in?
Great accompaniment can bring out the very best in a musician. When I play along with the likes of Jim Byrne, Maurice McHugh, Brian Harte, or John McGreevy [bouzouki] it makes me play to the top of my form - I even find myself playing tunes that I didn't think I knew or were half remembered from 20 years ago.
On the other hand we have the balloons who can't even tune the instrument! Believe it or not one approached me in a session in Listowel to ask if I could tune his 'new' guitar for him. You can imagine my reply! Equally awful are those that think they have discovered a new style. On one occasion I had a guy who droned the bottom E string incessantly through an entire tune and proudly asked me what I thought of the effect. My reply was that it depended what sort of an effect he intended to elicit from the musicians!
I agree with you that few instruments can claim to be 'Irish' and it really doesn't matter. The only thing that counts is whether or not the playing of any instrument adds to or detracts from the musicians' enjoyment of the music. After all the real motivation for all of us is to enjoy ourselves, if we are lucky to help others enjoy themselves, and finally if we are very lucky to gain the respect of those musicians that we ourselves respect.
My advice to guitar players who are coming to traditional music is no different from that I would offer to any instrumentalist
1. Learn your own instrument - if possible look for someone who is already an exponent and seek their advice guidance and tuition. Listen to and watch good players and learn from them.
2. Learn the tunes - work out a unique accompaniment to every tune and don't assume that all reels in the key of D are the same. Practice at home -not during the session!
3. Learn the etiquette of traditional sessions. You cant just barge in uninvited to regular sessions where the local musicians hold court. Treat the session as you would if you were a guest in someone's house.
4. Don't feel that you have to play every tune in the session.
5. Watch the volume!
6. Simple is usually best - at least when you are starting out. The musicians will appreciate simple vamping of appropriate chords played well than fancy pick work that doesn't quite gel.
7. Finally - When you are as good as Arty McGlynn you can do whatever the f**k you want!
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Sound advice Breandan, well done.
Your point 3 touched a nerve with me. You spend years getting that chair moulded exactly to the shape o' yer bum, for maximum comfort, not to mention finding the spot that suits your instrument in relation to the instruments of the other regular musicians, only to come in some night & find some visiting musicians, who should bloody well know better, sitting in all the good seats.
In the old days I used to grin & bear it, but no more. It can work out OK sometimes I suppose, but usually what happens is, all the regular musicians are uncomfortable, sitting out of order, so don't play well, & so don't enjoy themselves. They're the ones who have paid their dues to that session, over the years, & they deserve the best seats. So I would say to anyone, hold back & wait for the regulars to get comfy first & then introduce yourself, & *ask* if you may join in. Just because you carry an instrument, that doesn't give you the right to barge in. You'll rarely be refused.
In a session in Milltown, way back in '77, (Zimmer time, & the livin' is easy!) I remember Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche (Stockton's wing was just around the corner, so to speak) approaching our run of the mill session & politely asking if they could join us! A lesson I have never forgotten, & more people should heed.
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I almost passed this discussion by - I've seen the subject on different lists many times before. I'm amazed at how critical most of them are to guitarists. This discussion seemed more supportive. I have played guitar at sessions for 30 years. - but I started as a dance musician - frequently open air dances or with small sound systems and it was neccessary to be loud with a strong beat. So I find the eletism of session players interesting. This was supposed to be dance music. Few sesson players I'm afraid, are able to play for actual dances!
Re: chords. I know a little DADGAD and other tunings but I usualy play in standard tuning as my guitars scale length (a 12 fret Martin D35S) just works better in standard. But I play mostly just standard 3-4 chords - I vary my attack and what strings I play, using many drones - trying to support the tunes, but occasionaly giving my own voice depending on how I feel at the time, how the tune is going, etc. I have a good time with it. Sometimes I play melody and my guitar is loud enough so the melody can be heard.
I remember taking my guitar out at a session in East Durham and having a concertina player - before I played one note- say that there was already a guitar player, (happened to be apretty young girl), so I should stick to my tenor banjo. I gave him a cold stare and played my guts out.
Lately I find myself leaving my guitar home more often than not. I'm a frustrated fiddle player and usually use sessions to practice rather than show off. Also my guitar is big and don't like leaving it over to the side if I'm switching off to different instruments. But every once in a while I need to get my rocks off I'll bring it. I haven't in a while, but watch out Clove Inn, I'm gettng the urge!
The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
If you were to ask any musician at any session in Ireland what they thought of Steve Cooney or Arty McGlynn, Tony McManus or Chris Newman you could expect a range of positive answers like,
Genius Brilliant,Superb, or very occasionally, Who?
These four musicians along with a host of others including Mícheal Ní Domhnaill, John Doyle, Mark Kelly, Paul McSherry and Jim Murray have championed the cause of the guitar in Irish music. The list of CDs they're on goes into the hundreds. However, away from the bright lights of the stage or the eerie silence of the recoding studio Irish music lives and breathes in the corners of pubs throughout Ireland. The session is a human channelling of the thousands of tunes floating around us all at any time.
To gauge the guitar's esteem or lack of it, the session is the best place to look.
Most sessions will probably comprise of a selection from this range of instruments and people i.e. flute, fiddle, banjo, pipes, bodhran, concertina, whistle, bouzouki, mandolin, accordion piano key or button, singer, guitar/singer and guitar. I leave the guitar to last as I have come to learn that the guitar is lowest on the pecking order of instruments in the session. This may stem from the guitar's dubious parentage.
A very brief history
The guitar probably originated in Spain, where by the 16th century it was the counterpart among the middle and lower classes of the aristocracy's vihuela, an instrument of similar shape and ancestry with six double courses.
The guitar became popular in other European countries in the 16th and 17th centuries, and by the late 17th century a fifth course of strings had been added below the other four.
In the mid-18th century the guitar attained its modern form, when the double courses were made single and a sixth string was added above the lower five. Guitar makers in the 19th century broadened the body, increased the curve of the waist, thinned the belly, and changed the internal bracing. A modern machine head replaced the old wooden tuning pegs.
So its not Irish then? Nope!
This has a lot to do with the inherent snobbery regarding the guitar and Irish music in my opinion. Although the origins of most now 'trad' instruments are foreign it still is held against the guitar more than the others.
What goes on
Anyway, it seems to be the will of a higher power that the guitar player will sing. This is primarily down to the fact that the guitar is ideally suited to accompany the song and it is difficult to sing and play the flute simultaneously. At a session the musicians will belt into reels and jigs, hornpipes, slides and polkas and the guitar player/singer will accompany at varying degrees of skill using a selection of chords, tunings and timings! After a certain amount of time usually judgeable by the emptying of the pint glasses on the table the guitar player/singer will come into his own. He or she will sing a song either traditional, contemporary or self penned while the refilling of glasses goes on around. Most of the players will enjoy the song and the chance to get a good swallow of Guinness and the like and the music will start up again. This pattern will repeat itself for the rest of the night or until such times as the bar stays open and the musicians stay upright.
So what is the problem if all are happy? Personally and this is my opinion, the guitar deserves better treatment. I have found over many years playing that there are several types of guitar player.
a) The aforementioned half way house type. He or she is primarily a singer and uses the guitar to accompany the song. This is fine until they try to accompany the music. This will invariably happen as no one wants to sit in the midst of such music just holding a guitar. The trouble here is they use a very limited range of chords and have no real understanding of the music. The chords used in the songs are used ad nauseum behind the tunes. The timing can be iffy to say the least and the volume generally too loud. But in the informal atmosphere the other musicians are not likely to say anything for fear of being called an, 'arrogant bastard!' or some other blessing like that. This silence will neither improve the guitar player or the overall sound of the session.
b) Next is the dedicated singer who is 'not half bad' on the guitar. He or she will sing expertly and accompany themselves at a very competent level. They may use tuning variations like dropped D or DADGAD. They add vocal quality to the session and while a replenishing of pints goes on there is uncalled for order and respect. Generally they show a good knowledge of the music around and accompany it well. They use chords imaginatively and are willing to attempt some exotic notes. These musicians are the pioneers of the guitar comeback. Hard work in learning, expressed in this case through singing and self-accompaniment earn respect from the other session musicians.
c) The dedicated accompanist who sings occasionally. This person will have had a revelation at some point in their musical careers and decide that he or she will try to sound like a particular guitar player who has inspired them. While trying to emulate their guitar heroes they will be searching for their own take on the music. Generally, depending on their confidence, knowledge of the instrument and particular hero they add a drive or lift to the session. Some may get stuck in the imitation mode to the detriment of their own personality. What they will experience then will change from,
'Christ, a guitar player!' to 'Christ, another Cooney/McGlynn clone!' Their songs are usually very well accompanied and may include self-penned or traditional songs from guitar-based singers i.e. Dick Gaughan or Paul Brady. The refilling of pints doesn't bother them as they are concentrating too much on getting the accompaniment to the song just right.
d) The dedicated accompanist full stop. The serious guitar player who has spurned his right to sing. This person will be from one of the two major guitar schools i.e. Arty McGlynn or Steve Cooney. Their choice of influence will reflect their personality and self-confidence. The Arty McGlynn style could be likened to subtle strength. Their playing will be delicious and expertly executed yet non-committal or 'in check' able to offer more but not doing so. They know the neck intimately and employ bass string runs. The timing of the strumming is exquisite.
The Steve Cooney style may be described as a vibrant explosion of sound. This type of player will lift the ceiling off the pub if possible but aware at all times that the tune is all and never over stepping that boundary. The power comes from expert knowledge of the guitar neck, octaves, the capo and strong right hand strumming technique. Easy to spot as they will all use a nylon strung guitar to achieve that harp like vitality. Both these types of player will use blues, flamenco and jazz chords or any influence they think might add something to the guitar's role in the session.
Their own worst enemies
At least that's what is supposed to happen. Anyone who has bothered to learn the guitar and bring it to a session must be aware of the power they possess. Our friends in category (a) seem blissfully ignorant but at least they contribute a song. How many times have you seen the look amongst the melody makers when someone enters the pub with the big black case? The thoughts that can be read could range from,
'Aw Jesus the JCB,' although this is sometimes saved for piano key accordion players.
'Not another guitar player!,' as if the player had some music defying illness
Keep that f**kin case closed for God's sake!' thought in desperation as a 12 string Louden takes the air.
But why should this be the case? Surely Irish musicians are the Salthill of the earth? Well, I'm afraid that some guitar players are doing the rest of us a mighty disservice by not learning their instrument at a high enough level. Unfortunately, basic guitar can be learned quickly. In a matter of weeks a novice can handle several major chords without any knowledge of what key they belong to or their relative minors or scale patterns. What you have is a three/four chord maybe the odd minor chord wonder! And what delight he/she will take in the execution of the tunes. Timing is something the watch takes care of and there is no volume control whatsoever.
Now before I continue I must reiterate my belief that the guitar is an ACCOMPANYING instrument. By definition it should fit snugly BEHIND the tune and embellish the overall sound. There is no doubt that the session will flow perfectly well without the six strings. The guitars have no function at all without the music. One would reasonably conclude therefore that all care should be taken so as NOT to drown out or interfere with the energy and flow of the tune. Unfortunately this seems to be far from the norm. Pick any lead/melody instrument e.g. the fiddle.
I always try to imagine the practice required to coordinate the bowing, fingering and timing. It is not easy and only becomes so after many years of practice and listening and learning. Now imagine the fiddle player at a session with other like-minded musicians all ready to parade their knowledge of the music over several pints and craic. Just into the first set of tunes when from nowhere the sound of a rabid three chord buffoon bludgeoning chords in no discernable order at the wrong tempo and volume. The magic that tunes create around the players is immediately punctured like a deflating hot air balloon. The rest of the evening can be physically painful until that guitar player leaves having picked up the 'death vibe' from the other musicians or he breaks one of his many strings and has no replacement. Is it any wonder therefore that the guitar player is anticipated with some dread?
These opinions are based on the guitar player accompanying the tunes and nothing else. I am aware that most sessions can drift to include classical, blues or jazz solos when the guitar is unique. I am also aware that many guitar players can play the tunes on guitar equally as well as say a banjo player but that's not at issue here yet.
From these personal observations I felt the next step was to elicit the opinions of both guitar players and melody makers at various sessions around Ireland. I asked everyone the same question,
What do you think of the guitar in a session?
These then are some of their views: -
Catherine (McLean) Sands Flute, whistle player from Co Antrim
'A good guitar player can add to a session, give it lift and rhythm but a bad player can ruin it by spoiling the rhythm, drowning out the tunes and having no feel for the music.'
Stephen Leech Banjo and guitar/singer from Co Dublin
'I believe the guitar took over from the piano in the late 60's early 70's as the newer more mobile form of accompaniment especially with the up and coming and soon to be spearhead of our musical tradition.'
Oli Cechini - Piper, whistle player from Germany now Sydney via Dublin
'I always think B minor then A minor and fast as f**k!'
Any other opinions are gratefully received and will be used in this comment list. I've only started to record these opinions hence the few so far.
# Posted on August 25th 2002 by divilthebit
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I find the current guitar debate somewhat mystifying as its place in the music can hardly be questioned by this stage. I have been playing with guitarists for almost 30 years. The only question is, as with all players, one of competence. Whilst I still personally prefer the bouzouki -- and the old six string Greek variety at that -- a good guitarist is most definitely a great addition to a session. But, to state the obvious, no accompaniment is required.Even 2 whistles make for a session, two guitars, unless the guitarists can play the tunes, do not. What I can say, very broadly speaking of course, is that the role of guitar is better understood in Ireland, if only because the Irish session is a much less forgiving environment than its US counterpart and flashy exhibitionists would soon be humbled.
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by LongNote
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Michael, is that you up there perchance, ye divil ye?
;¬)
Conán
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Blimey, was that the longest post in this web sites history?
(And since when was the violin an irish instrument?
# Posted on August 26th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
One instrument which vies with the guitar in the unpopularity stakes is the bodhrán, which is regarded by some as the ONLY truly Irish instrument - but that's another story.
On my visits to Ireland, I have been surprised by the abundance of very competent guitarists in sessions. Whilst they may not all be to my taste, I have been impressed by their technical ability, their knowledge of chords and how they relate to the melody - and many of them also play a melody instrument.
For an accompanist, perhaps more than any other kind of musician, restraint is the key. I have heard guitarists whose playing is technically flawless, they use every chord in the chordbook and more besides, each one "fitting" perfectly with the tune, but their cleverness detracts from the tune. There's a fine line between "lifting" a tune and "forcing" it in a direction it doesn't want to go in.
# Posted on August 27th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I've just read the earlier thread on guitars, but I thought I'd write my comments here since they're on the same subject. A lot of people seem to judge guiatrists on the basis of how many chords they know. There's nothing wrong with a three chord guitarist, so long as he/she plays those three chords well, in time, in the right places and when and where they fit, or else doesn't play them at all. The main things are being able to identify the key of the tune, knowing the 4 or 5 basic chords (e.g I, II, IV, V & VI for a major key) in each of the common keys, and knowing exactly where to put them.
On multiple accompanists: I always think that having two accompanists in a session is pointless unless they are sitting next to one another and each can hear or see exactly what the other is playing. In a 15-strong session, with a guitarist at each end, one may be playing away, oblivious to what the other is playing, but somebody in the middle will very likely be hearing two different sets if chords jarring against each other. On the other hand, two accompanists that are familiar with each other's style, who accompany each other as well as accompanying the tune, can be a great asset.
# Posted on August 27th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
That really was the biggest ever comment michael! Now lets see, I really believe that good guitar and bazouki backing really add something to a session, Its about personal taste isnt it? I wouldnt say that I really like the cooney/murray style, but I like the McGlynn style. There are a few fab backers in galway, really sweet and I love playing with them! And there is one fab backer in melbourne that I know of. I truly believe a good backer makes a session about %400 more enjoyable.
# Posted on August 27th 2002 by bb
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Aye Bridie its me. I've finally gone mad. Send us an email I can reply to 'cos I couldn't with your last one. Both girls doin well. Thanks for your reply it'll join the list now
All the best
Mick
# Posted on August 27th 2002 by divilthebit
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
bb
The answer to your question is yes.
That's the same bucko.
# Posted on August 27th 2002 by Ptarmigan
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Of course it's more fun playing with a good strummer, Really lifts it etc etc etc etc etc
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
As a flute player I love great accompaniment, whether that be piano, guitar, or bouzouki [and even the bodhrán!!]. Unfortunately too many exponents of these instruments don't bother to learn the tunes. The result is that for many accompanying players they only recognise 'the reel in D' or 'the jig in G' with little or no feel for the difference between the vast repertoire that is traditional music.
Why is it that one expects the flute player to know the tune but that many guitarists think that all that is needed is to be in the rough vicinity of the key that the tune is in?
Great accompaniment can bring out the very best in a musician. When I play along with the likes of Jim Byrne, Maurice McHugh, Brian Harte, or John McGreevy [bouzouki] it makes me play to the top of my form - I even find myself playing tunes that I didn't think I knew or were half remembered from 20 years ago.
On the other hand we have the balloons who can't even tune the instrument! Believe it or not one approached me in a session in Listowel to ask if I could tune his 'new' guitar for him. You can imagine my reply! Equally awful are those that think they have discovered a new style. On one occasion I had a guy who droned the bottom E string incessantly through an entire tune and proudly asked me what I thought of the effect. My reply was that it depended what sort of an effect he intended to elicit from the musicians!
I agree with you that few instruments can claim to be 'Irish' and it really doesn't matter. The only thing that counts is whether or not the playing of any instrument adds to or detracts from the musicians' enjoyment of the music. After all the real motivation for all of us is to enjoy ourselves, if we are lucky to help others enjoy themselves, and finally if we are very lucky to gain the respect of those musicians that we ourselves respect.
My advice to guitar players who are coming to traditional music is no different from that I would offer to any instrumentalist
1. Learn your own instrument - if possible look for someone who is already an exponent and seek their advice guidance and tuition. Listen to and watch good players and learn from them.
2. Learn the tunes - work out a unique accompaniment to every tune and don't assume that all reels in the key of D are the same. Practice at home -not during the session!
3. Learn the etiquette of traditional sessions. You cant just barge in uninvited to regular sessions where the local musicians hold court. Treat the session as you would if you were a guest in someone's house.
4. Don't feel that you have to play every tune in the session.
5. Watch the volume!
6. Simple is usually best - at least when you are starting out. The musicians will appreciate simple vamping of appropriate chords played well than fancy pick work that doesn't quite gel.
7. Finally - When you are as good as Arty McGlynn you can do whatever the f**k you want!
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by breandan
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
Sound advice Breandan, well done.
Your point 3 touched a nerve with me. You spend years getting that chair moulded exactly to the shape o' yer bum, for maximum comfort, not to mention finding the spot that suits your instrument in relation to the instruments of the other regular musicians, only to come in some night & find some visiting musicians, who should bloody well know better, sitting in all the good seats.
In the old days I used to grin & bear it, but no more. It can work out OK sometimes I suppose, but usually what happens is, all the regular musicians are uncomfortable, sitting out of order, so don't play well, & so don't enjoy themselves. They're the ones who have paid their dues to that session, over the years, & they deserve the best seats. So I would say to anyone, hold back & wait for the regulars to get comfy first & then introduce yourself, & *ask* if you may join in. Just because you carry an instrument, that doesn't give you the right to barge in. You'll rarely be refused.
In a session in Milltown, way back in '77, (Zimmer time, & the livin' is easy!) I remember Maurice Lennon & Paul Roche (Stockton's wing was just around the corner, so to speak) approaching our run of the mill session & politely asking if they could join us! A lesson I have never forgotten, & more people should heed.
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by Ptarmigan
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I posted this on another discussion but I guess it needs stressing agian to none tune playes:
Learn the tunes
# Posted on August 28th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
I almost passed this discussion by - I've seen the subject on different lists many times before. I'm amazed at how critical most of them are to guitarists. This discussion seemed more supportive. I have played guitar at sessions for 30 years. - but I started as a dance musician - frequently open air dances or with small sound systems and it was neccessary to be loud with a strong beat. So I find the eletism of session players interesting. This was supposed to be dance music. Few sesson players I'm afraid, are able to play for actual dances!
Re: chords. I know a little DADGAD and other tunings but I usualy play in standard tuning as my guitars scale length (a 12 fret Martin D35S) just works better in standard. But I play mostly just standard 3-4 chords - I vary my attack and what strings I play, using many drones - trying to support the tunes, but occasionaly giving my own voice depending on how I feel at the time, how the tune is going, etc. I have a good time with it. Sometimes I play melody and my guitar is loud enough so the melody can be heard.
I remember taking my guitar out at a session in East Durham and having a concertina player - before I played one note- say that there was already a guitar player, (happened to be apretty young girl), so I should stick to my tenor banjo. I gave him a cold stare and played my guts out.
Lately I find myself leaving my guitar home more often than not. I'm a frustrated fiddle player and usually use sessions to practice rather than show off. Also my guitar is big and don't like leaving it over to the side if I'm switching off to different instruments. But every once in a while I need to get my rocks off I'll bring it. I haven't in a while, but watch out Clove Inn, I'm gettng the urge!
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by boblusk
Re: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music - What's the Story?
This thread carried over to the Mudcat and is worth a look.
The link:
http://ragtime.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=51138
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by aliceflynn