A year and a half ago, I asked this question. I got a couple of good replies and a whole bunch of off-topic discussion. It's in relation to the law in Ireland regarding minors in pubs at night, which was new at the time, but now has been around for a while. Time to ask again.
I'm looking for actual first-hand experiences or observations, from pubs in small towns in the Republic of Ireland since the law came into effect, which I believe was March 2004.
Have pub operators (owners or bartenders) denied entry to young (say under 10 years old) children accompanied by a parent attending a session, say from 9:30 pm to closing?
I realize that the law is more likely to be enforced in cities, where Gardai are more likely to be around, but what's actually happening in the smaller towns?
I'm probably a bit old fashioned but, for a child under ten to be out at that time of night, there ought to be a very good reason.
It might be acceptable in the case of a private function, special ceilidh or event, wedding etc or within the hotel/restaurant bar where the family was staying. However, I don't see it as a good move as far as regular sessions are concerned.
Having said that, I'm not against children being in licensed premises as such or even participating in sessions. There are plenty of afternoon and early evening events. It's just the late night scenario that concerns me with all the usual drunks, assholes etc who frequent many of these places.
When we were in Ireland (in '97 for a couple of weeks) our kids went to the pubs with us and ate chips and drank orange sodas. Nobody had a problem with it, and neither do we.
If I were at a session, and my 12 yr old wanted to come with me, I would surely love to have his company...he would probably bring his fiddle and play with us for a while.
If a pub got out of hand, I would be the one who wanted to leave.
Nobody's answered the question, and some of the information is out of date. The pub licensing laws have changed, and there is a strict prohibition against children being in the pubs after 9:30:
"I'm looking for actual first-hand experiences or observations, from pubs in small towns"
Yes, pub owners in small towns and also cities in the west of Ireland are enforcing the prohibition. 2nd-last time I was in the west (Summer 2004), a young man (age 17) traveling and studying fiddle with us was not permitted in the pubs after 9:30pm. Didn't matter if we were with him, or whether he was within 18 months of legal, or if he was there to play. Pub owners in Roscommon and Mayo (as well as Galway city) were very woodgy about his presence and usually we would tactfully leave. Fortunately, he's a studious young fellow who would go home and practice in advance of the following day's class.
"I realize that the law is more likely to be enforced in cities, where Gardai are more likely to be around, but what's actually happening in the smaller towns?"
That was not my observation. Enforcement came from the pub owners, who were themselves being led to be very wary by the guards.
Don't forget, many of the guards pop in for an after-hours pint in the local pub. Their relationship with pub-owners can be very tight, for various reasons which I will not go into here but that you may well surmise.
Nobody under the age of 18 is allow or permitted to be on a licenced premises after 9pm. Just like the smoking ban, I have not seen this law broken or ignored by any publican in cities or rural settings as the fine to the publican is extremely high, endorsement of licience and possible closure of pub!
Chris - is it possible they were so uptight about his coming in because none of you were his legal guardian? I'd figure that a parent or legal guardian would have more of a chance of getting their kid/teenager into a pub.
I hadn't realised that things were quite so strict. In Scotland, you can be allowed in a bar over the age of fourteen(with the discretion of the licensee) providing you don't drink alcohol (even this is possible within certain premises, if you are over sixteen and having a meal). This seems more reasonable to me.
However, the original post mentioned children under the age of ten and I do believe this is too young, under most circumstances.
Thanks, Chris and compaqjohn for a few data points. The other responses so far are of little relevance.
I'm not asking for opinions on the appropriateness or for opinions on the law or comparisons to the laws elsewhere. I'm not asking about teenagers who might be seen as trying to get drinks while underage.
This is a specific 8 year old who loves the music. His mother plays fiddle and might bring him on a one week trip to Ireland. We have some specific pubs and sessions in mind that aren't scary. What we don't want is to make all the arrangements, buy the tickets, get there, and then find that we have to find a babysitter every night.
Well I have to say kids have been in sessions i've been in until late no bother. But then I am in a rural area. I don't think Ive seen a guard in the pub over the last couple of years or so. We do run a beginners session on sunday nights 7.00pm till about 9 - 9.30pm and it sometimes develops into a full blown session afterwards and kids have been known to stay on a bit. No problem as far as I am concerned. The smoking ban works so well because it is supported by nearly everybody, smokers included.
I've been back to Ireland and attended small festivals where kids did attend sessions in violation of the law. It struck me as pretty stupid thing to hit the bar owners with two potentionally economically damaging laws back to back. One night, garda from another town came in and shut the bar but that was only for one night while the local Garda didn't seem to mind.
Thanks Larsheen, Cuso, Bernie and Oldetimey for good, though conflicting information. Presumably the publican's willingness to take a chance would depend on the likelihood of adverse consequences if caught. My guess would be that if it's absolutely obvious that the children are not going be trying to drink and the pub is not going to be serving them (i.e. small children under parental supervision as opposed to teenagers), the Garda would probably not pursue action against the pub, and that the publicans would be aware of that. I'm sure it's a completely different story if the situation could be construed as an opportunity for the pub to serve a minor.
i live in a rural area in the west of ireland. i'm 17. during the summer myself and 3 of my friends got together, all of whom are between 15 and 17, to play a bit of traditional music. we are quite good together (even if i may say so myself!!!) a few local pubs heard about us, and before long we were playing in 2pubs 4 nights a week. our sessions usuallly went on from 9 until 11.30 or 12, and sometimes even 1am. not once during the whole summer did a guard come into the pub, and the owner of the pubs kept asking us back! i don't think the law is enforced where i live, though i'm not complaining! it's rare to go into any of my local pubs and not to find a 10 or 11 yr old lurking in the background!!
We were over at Miltown this year and in Co. Cork. We didn't take our 7 year-old into the bars around Miltown in the evenings at all (understandably), but did take her to dances. In Cork, we were in a few late sessions (one untill 2 a.m.) with the wee one. We didn't have any bother at all, but I suspect it may have had something to do with how well-behaved our daughter is, and also the particular sessions we went to (perhaps the relationship between the regulars at the session and the bars, and the likely-hood of the Guardai paying a visit).
Personally, I think it's a shame that this law was introduced - if the parents are responsible with respect to the sessions they take children into, and the children well-behaved - why could the politicians not have left it to the discression of the publicans?
Leitrim is good for it I remember 25 yrs back leaving Lynches bar (shemore lounge) as a nipper and all the other kids just getting there at 11:00 p.m. mind you I've heard they have gone all european about it now and tightened up on it a lot
Well MacTheWife, our wee one doesn't drink much in the way of soft drinks, and she's genuinely very interested in the music and dancing - indeed, she's been up dancing to the Plain Set, the Caledonian, and a number of polka & slide sets - all in the one night. When she was three, I remember one particular session in Sliabh Luachra, where she insisted on sitting between two friends of ours - a father and daughter who are great fiddle-players from down that way. As I said before, she's also extremely well-behaved.
Granted though, there are some children who aren't so, and definitely shouldn't be in the pubs at night.
When I was in Co Cork this summer in a holiday area, parents were going into the pubs after 10pm and leaving their kids outside with the smokers. What's that all about then?
But a one pub I went into seemed to tolerate kids coming and going at least until after midnight (when I left). There was no music, though.
Aye Ron, if all kids who came into session pubs were as well behaved as your young lady, nobody would have anything to complain about.
As you know I work with Primary kids all week, so I'm well used to having youngsters about, but I can understand how some folks just like to get away from them for a while.
As you know, in some pubs the language can get a bit rich later on, as more alcohol is consumed, so from that point of view it is probably a pretty sound idea to have some sort of curfew for the younger ones!
I know what you're saying Dick, but it really depends on the pub, the people, the kids and the parents. If there's a problem with any one of those, then fair enough - but I do feel a bit of sensible, measured discretion is the way to go about things.
Absolutely correct Ron P. After all, there are as many different types of kids as types of Pubs! Kids you would enjoy having round you & those you could cheerfully lock up in the basement! Likewise, there are pubs I love going to, to play music, & there are others I would never dream of going into, even for just a drink, never mind playing a tune! Very often that has more to do with the kind of folk who frequent the pub!
I have been to Ireland with my family every year since I was born. I would have to say that I would believe that under 10 would be too young. However, I think that 14 is an ok age for youngsters to attend sessions in pubs, as long as they are playing. If they are any younger they are also unlikely to be of a half-decent standard.
Children in Pubs in Ireland
Children in Pubs in Ireland
A year and a half ago, I asked this question. I got a couple of good replies and a whole bunch of off-topic discussion. It's in relation to the law in Ireland regarding minors in pubs at night, which was new at the time, but now has been around for a while. Time to ask again.
I'm looking for actual first-hand experiences or observations, from pubs in small towns in the Republic of Ireland since the law came into effect, which I believe was March 2004.
Have pub operators (owners or bartenders) denied entry to young (say under 10 years old) children accompanied by a parent attending a session, say from 9:30 pm to closing?
I realize that the law is more likely to be enforced in cities, where Gardai are more likely to be around, but what's actually happening in the smaller towns?
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I'm probably a bit old fashioned but, for a child under ten to be out at that time of night, there ought to be a very good reason.
It might be acceptable in the case of a private function, special ceilidh or event, wedding etc or within the hotel/restaurant bar where the family was staying. However, I don't see it as a good move as far as regular sessions are concerned.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Having said that, I'm not against children being in licensed premises as such or even participating in sessions. There are plenty of afternoon and early evening events. It's just the late night scenario that concerns me with all the usual drunks, assholes etc who frequent many of these places.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
When we were in Ireland (in '97 for a couple of weeks) our kids went to the pubs with us and ate chips and drank orange sodas. Nobody had a problem with it, and neither do we.
If I were at a session, and my 12 yr old wanted to come with me, I would surely love to have his company...he would probably bring his fiddle and play with us for a while.
If a pub got out of hand, I would be the one who wanted to leave.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Sunnybear
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Nobody's answered the question, and some of the information is out of date. The pub licensing laws have changed, and there is a strict prohibition against children being in the pubs after 9:30:
"I'm looking for actual first-hand experiences or observations, from pubs in small towns"
Yes, pub owners in small towns and also cities in the west of Ireland are enforcing the prohibition. 2nd-last time I was in the west (Summer 2004), a young man (age 17) traveling and studying fiddle with us was not permitted in the pubs after 9:30pm. Didn't matter if we were with him, or whether he was within 18 months of legal, or if he was there to play. Pub owners in Roscommon and Mayo (as well as Galway city) were very woodgy about his presence and usually we would tactfully leave. Fortunately, he's a studious young fellow who would go home and practice in advance of the following day's class.
"I realize that the law is more likely to be enforced in cities, where Gardai are more likely to be around, but what's actually happening in the smaller towns?"
That was not my observation. Enforcement came from the pub owners, who were themselves being led to be very wary by the guards.
chris smith
chris@coyotebanjo.com
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by coyotebanjo
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Don't forget, many of the guards pop in for an after-hours pint in the local pub. Their relationship with pub-owners can be very tight, for various reasons which I will not go into here but that you may well surmise.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Nobody under the age of 18 is allow or permitted to be on a licenced premises after 9pm. Just like the smoking ban, I have not seen this law broken or ignored by any publican in cities or rural settings as the fine to the publican is extremely high, endorsement of licience and possible closure of pub!
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Chris - is it possible they were so uptight about his coming in because none of you were his legal guardian? I'd figure that a parent or legal guardian would have more of a chance of getting their kid/teenager into a pub.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Ah, see at least ya'll's laws are aimed at under 18. I hate that here in the States it's under 21. That too though, is another discussion. . .
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by musicfan
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I hadn't realised that things were quite so strict. In Scotland, you can be allowed in a bar over the age of fourteen(with the discretion of the licensee) providing you don't drink alcohol (even this is possible within certain premises, if you are over sixteen and having a meal). This seems more reasonable to me.
However, the original post mentioned children under the age of ten and I do believe this is too young, under most circumstances.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Thanks, Chris and compaqjohn for a few data points. The other responses so far are of little relevance.
I'm not asking for opinions on the appropriateness or for opinions on the law or comparisons to the laws elsewhere. I'm not asking about teenagers who might be seen as trying to get drinks while underage.
This is a specific 8 year old who loves the music. His mother plays fiddle and might bring him on a one week trip to Ireland. We have some specific pubs and sessions in mind that aren't scary. What we don't want is to make all the arrangements, buy the tickets, get there, and then find that we have to find a babysitter every night.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
If you have specific pubs in mind, then why not contact them direct, then you would know exactly how you stood!
Sorry, I'm up in the north & it's a different story up here & so not much use to you as far as this thread goes.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I suppose that's a possibility. It's quite a bit of work, but it might very well be the best way to get good information.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Its 9pm in the winter and 10pm in the summer. It is fairly strictly enforced even in rural area's.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Cuso
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Well I have to say kids have been in sessions i've been in until late no bother. But then I am in a rural area. I don't think Ive seen a guard in the pub over the last couple of years or so. We do run a beginners session on sunday nights 7.00pm till about 9 - 9.30pm and it sometimes develops into a full blown session afterwards and kids have been known to stay on a bit. No problem as far as I am concerned. The smoking ban works so well because it is supported by nearly everybody, smokers included.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by Bernie
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I've been back to Ireland and attended small festivals where kids did attend sessions in violation of the law. It struck me as pretty stupid thing to hit the bar owners with two potentionally economically damaging laws back to back. One night, garda from another town came in and shut the bar but that was only for one night while the local Garda didn't seem to mind.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by oldetimey
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Thanks Larsheen, Cuso, Bernie and Oldetimey for good, though conflicting information. Presumably the publican's willingness to take a chance would depend on the likelihood of adverse consequences if caught. My guess would be that if it's absolutely obvious that the children are not going be trying to drink and the pub is not going to be serving them (i.e. small children under parental supervision as opposed to teenagers), the Garda would probably not pursue action against the pub, and that the publicans would be aware of that. I'm sure it's a completely different story if the situation could be construed as an opportunity for the pub to serve a minor.
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
i live in a rural area in the west of ireland. i'm 17. during the summer myself and 3 of my friends got together, all of whom are between 15 and 17, to play a bit of traditional music. we are quite good together (even if i may say so myself!!!) a few local pubs heard about us, and before long we were playing in 2pubs 4 nights a week. our sessions usuallly went on from 9 until 11.30 or 12, and sometimes even 1am. not once during the whole summer did a guard come into the pub, and the owner of the pubs kept asking us back! i don't think the law is enforced where i live, though i'm not complaining! it's rare to go into any of my local pubs and not to find a 10 or 11 yr old lurking in the background!!
# Posted on October 25th 2005 by siobhánmc
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
We were over at Miltown this year and in Co. Cork. We didn't take our 7 year-old into the bars around Miltown in the evenings at all (understandably), but did take her to dances. In Cork, we were in a few late sessions (one untill 2 a.m.) with the wee one. We didn't have any bother at all, but I suspect it may have had something to do with how well-behaved our daughter is, and also the particular sessions we went to (perhaps the relationship between the regulars at the session and the bars, and the likely-hood of the Guardai paying a visit).
Personally, I think it's a shame that this law was introduced - if the parents are responsible with respect to the sessions they take children into, and the children well-behaved - why could the politicians not have left it to the discression of the publicans?
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Woops - I meant "discretion".
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
As comic Tommy Tiernan quotes "fanta filled f**ks" throwing eachother around the pub by their arms and legs full of E numbers
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Leitrim is good for it I remember 25 yrs back leaving Lynches bar (shemore lounge) as a nipper and all the other kids just getting there at 11:00 p.m. mind you I've heard they have gone all european about it now and tightened up on it a lot
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Well MacTheWife, our wee one doesn't drink much in the way of soft drinks, and she's genuinely very interested in the music and dancing - indeed, she's been up dancing to the Plain Set, the Caledonian, and a number of polka & slide sets - all in the one night. When she was three, I remember one particular session in Sliabh Luachra, where she insisted on sitting between two friends of ours - a father and daughter who are great fiddle-players from down that way. As I said before, she's also extremely well-behaved.
Granted though, there are some children who aren't so, and definitely shouldn't be in the pubs at night.
# Posted on October 26th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
When I was in Co Cork this summer in a holiday area, parents were going into the pubs after 10pm and leaving their kids outside with the smokers. What's that all about then?
But a one pub I went into seemed to tolerate kids coming and going at least until after midnight (when I left). There was no music, though.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Lissagriffin
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Aye Ron, if all kids who came into session pubs were as well behaved as your young lady, nobody would have anything to complain about.
As you know I work with Primary kids all week, so I'm well used to having youngsters about, but I can understand how some folks just like to get away from them for a while.
As you know, in some pubs the language can get a bit rich later on, as more alcohol is consumed, so from that point of view it is probably a pretty sound idea to have some sort of curfew for the younger ones!
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I know what you're saying Dick, but it really depends on the pub, the people, the kids and the parents. If there's a problem with any one of those, then fair enough - but I do feel a bit of sensible, measured discretion is the way to go about things.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
Absolutely correct Ron P. After all, there are as many different types of kids as types of Pubs! Kids you would enjoy having round you & those you could cheerfully lock up in the basement! Likewise, there are pubs I love going to, to play music, & there are others I would never dream of going into, even for just a drink, never mind playing a tune! Very often that has more to do with the kind of folk who frequent the pub!
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Children in Pubs in Ireland
I have been to Ireland with my family every year since I was born. I would have to say that I would believe that under 10 would be too young. However, I think that 14 is an ok age for youngsters to attend sessions in pubs, as long as they are playing. If they are any younger they are also unlikely to be of a half-decent standard.
# Posted on October 27th 2005 by Rosh