^A comment from an anecdote told by Donough in another thread.
Accompanists, do you find that fiddlers and box players often are very unreliable guides as to what key a tune is in?
How many times have you heard one shout "G" because that's the first note of a tune that's actually in C or something?
I agree, if your tune is in C and your first note is the fifth, G, then I'd shout C (provided the bar doesn't go GDBD or something). But there are many examples where I'd not shout out the right key ...
Example 1: The virginia reel. It really is quite plainly in Dmaj, but I'd always shout G. The first chord really has to be a G. If you shout D and strummers wade in with their big D chords it ruins it. So shout G and by the time they have got through the first bar, and providing they are using their ears, they'll know where to go. (Also, It reinforces the glare I give strummers who insist on playing a Bmin for the first chord)
Example 2: Rakish Paddy. OK so it's a D modal thing that begins with the flattened 7th. So I'd shout C and in you'd come with your C chords and, just like the above, by the end of the first bar you'll know where you are. And again, it helps people not to play an Amin.
One of the problems strummers have is a desire to look for the root all the time, but there are many many tunes in this tradition where the root simply floats around a bit. You have to be able to apply your harmonic skills to things that don't resolve like they "should".
I resolve all such opportunities for misunderstanding by shouting "Gmwrurrmmpheemeem!" whenever I launch into the next tune. And still the backers always get it wrong....
It really is true that theory only gets you so far because every tune is different, even if the root key is the same. Take two A Dorian tunes, Dinky Dorians and Jolly Beggarman. In the B section in particular, the chords played (Amaj and Gmaj) are in almost opposite places.
Short of knowing the tune, the best thing an accompanist can do (bodhran players, this can mean you too!) is lay back and listen to the entire tune, either just pedalling on the root note once through or (*gasp!*) stopping entirely to hear where the changes are, then coming in once you have an idea of what you want to play.
Also remember that the less accompanists you have, the more freedom you have as far as stretching what chords you're going to play.
And yes, at least half the time (and I'm being generously low on that figure) fiddle/ whistle/ box players have no feckin' clue what key the tunes they're playing are in!
All of the above can only be true if you are really more intelligent than the strummers. (Which I'm not. Not a strummer that is).
Can't you credit them just a little bit with being able to work all that out? In which case, keeping shtum is better than shouting out the wrong key, and then blaming the backer.
Downtowndalebrown, I hope you don't *really* play Amaj chords for A dorian tunes
Tunes players who have never backed are very often crap at telling what key a tune is in. But then backers need to know the tunes. There's the odd occasion when it's possible to back a tune without having heard it before, but the chord structure and rhythm has to be simple and immediately obvious, and a lot of the time that's not the case. Michael has it right. It helps if the tunes player has a clue about what chords they want to hear - then they can shout out the first chord. From there the backer should recognise the tune and need no more guidance.
Don't expect help like that from tunes players though. Most of them only care about whether they themselves sound good and whether they can segue seamlessly into the next tune. They don't care about backers because they see them as 2nd class session members. It's so refreshing when you come across a tune player who actually cares about the overall sound of the session. But so rare, sadly.
Well some people don't like to think in terms of modes.
ie they may view an E Dorian tune as being in D Major (same notes) but tonic is E instead of D.
And that's grand if that's the way they view it - it's not a melody players role to tell the backers the key
(although it is nice)
Can't get away from the fact that if we can't pick up an appropriate harmony on the fly for a tune then we need to know the tunes before we play them.
Downtow (.... etc ) says some intelligent stuff, but misses an important point in the last par. Yes, a lot of tune players don't know the key they are playing in. But this is down to two things. The first I mentioned earlier is that a lot of the tunes aren't in any key or mode, they have no centre. And secondly, because of this, it is an advantage not to think of where the centre is at all. Heck, it may even be an advantage not to know the centre, if there is one.
Anyhow, I'd agree with Bren here - when keys are shouted out, it invariably creates more problems for the accompaniest. I've been accompanying traditional Scottish, Irish & Cape Breton music for around 18 years now - and I don't get caught out that often - even with tunes I'm not familiar with (although it does happen now & again, especially if there is an outlandish key-change). The only time I like to know the keys in advance, is when playing on-stage when I would usually ask the melody player what to expect just before playing through a set.
Perhaps scraping on the fiddle now and again helps with my approach to accompaniment? (My fiddle-playing is pretty dreadful & I rarely bring it to sessions, but have ventured out with it once or twice).
This is why I like to play a snippet of the tunes I intend to play before I start. The other players know where I'm going, and the back-up can sus out the D tunes that start on an Amaj chord etc. Also, it's hard to play flute and shout out keys. When everyone insists on being 'spontaneous' and they ask me to think of the next tune, or the modus operandi has established to call-out-key-changes – I’ll say “D… starts on an A chord.” This only works if the back-up understood me though. Like I say, the snippet method works best.
Hi TPB - I'd agree with you re using snippets - that's probably the best approach of any to forewarn of the keychanges - indeed, it's very good for the whole session.
I've been on both sides of the divide in sessions. My observations are:
1. When playing melody I can't talk. What does this say about my cognitive processing? Theres a good thread for any psychologists amongst you.
2. When playing rythym I have learnt not to trust the key suggestions of melody players who only play melody.
3. When the harmonic structure of the tune is simple enough to pick up on the fly, its generally a boring tune to accompany. Interesting tunes are often those with a floating structure or unexpected shifts in chord. And really interesting tunes are sometimes harmonically ambiguous, allowing alternate chord structures. Of course, this is impossible with multiple accompanists picking up the tune on the fly. Playing with one other strummer who knows the tune and is thinking the same way about chord alternatives is when strumming almost rivals melody playing as a peak experience.
I have to go with Bren & RonP on this one. If the melody players 'never' made a mistake, they might have the right to start telling the Guitar & Zouk men what to do, but Hey, who among us is free from fault?
I reckon we should all be concentrating on keeping our own garden in shape before telling other folk how to tend theirs. (Mmmm! I like that, a wee bit of fresh air just wafted onto the bus there!)
The only time I reckon there is an excuse for keys to be shouted out is if you happen to get one of those total air heads, who nearly knows two & a half chords & only really likes playing country songs anyway, in your session!
Let's face it, those guys can really, totally DESTROY a session. In a case like that I'm all for someone, or better still everyone, shouting out every single key change to totally humiliate them into hobbling away into the shadows - with shame.
Well! Come on! You have to be cruel to be kind sometimes - don't you?
That snippet thing - yeah it's good but you lose the spontaneous feel of the session that you get when you're pulling tunes out on the fly. It would start to feel like a band practice I reckon, like a performance in fact, rather than a session. I suppose it all depends whether you're closed-minded, or wild, exciting and adventurous
I put together tunes spontaniously and then play snippets of what they're going to be. Or we'll decide collectively what tunes to play -- spontaniously.
I find that most people who yell out keys don't play flutes, can talk and play, but could have just as easily played snippets. Also, control freaks love the "spontanious-call-out-the-key" style because they don't have to gain any consensus to begin a new set -- they can just go for it. They also tend to dominate the session more than they could if they did the snippets with the other players. The snippet system is more all inclusive and sociable.
But it's *not* spontaneous Mr. Button. It's a pre-arranged set by definition if you decide beforehand what tunes you're gonna play. A mix of both systems is probably best. Sometimes I like not knowing what's coming next. But I think I'd get bored always playing pre-arranged sets (even if they were only organised in the minutes beforehand). Maybe when you've been playing a few years you settle into a rut, a bit like a pensioner likes to know exactly what's what beforehand so that every bit of their daily lives is predictable - woe betide you if you call in their home unexpectedly w/o phoning first to warn them. I hope I never get like that...
From time to time, I get to play with a very amiable u-piper, who likes to agree beforehand what is the tune we are all going to play, then mixes them all up in playing and shouts out a wrong tuning every time. Now THIS is what I call catching up on the fly. Of course, it's an easy version - I usually have just three tunes to choose from when he starts up, so there's big chance I'll get it right.
"I reckon we should all be concentrating on keeping our own garden in shape before telling other folk how to tend theirs. "
Yeah, as a fiddler it's none of my business what key it's in as long as I get the intervals right. I MIGHT yell out "2 sharps", but I'm more likely to yell "Beats Me". Expecting anything different would be asking the orchidist how to plant corn.
When I'm backing, if I don't know the tune I'll find the tonal center or a bass line . When I'm pretty confident, I'll add a note, then another.
Hand/ear co-ordination is crucial. but it helps to know the tune.
I can talk and play, and can shout out the chords as I play, just to wind up the guitarist who can't think that fast as he insists on using a capo.
I never cease to be amazed by "backers" who play the wrong final chord because they don't know what key they are in at the end of a tune, never mind the start.
Personally, I shout out two sharps or one flat to
1) stop confusion with E,B,C and D
2) totally confuse non-theorists
3) see how long it takes them to grasp what mode the first tune is in. (with above-average musicians, it should be milliseconds, and they should be able to work it out before they play a chord)
One of my fiddlers is a classics teacher so I amuse him by announcing the key as 'Adrian minimus, or Caligula magnus, just to baffle everyone else.
No Mr. Button that's nothing like the convo at our session. There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"! We'd talk about everything else though.
“totally confuse non-theorists” - because it’s all about theory is it ?
“I never cease to be amazed by "backers" who play the wrong final chord” - well if you’re trying to confuse people you’re playing with, then don’t be TOO amazed if your tactics work.
The backer should know the tune if he’s going to attempt to play it, but if we’re in a situation where he doesn’t, then if you try to make him crash and burn os show him up, then you crash and burn it for everyone not just him. The session is as strong as it’s weakest link, why attempt to make the weakest link even weaker ??
Oh all right then! Surely, part of the fun in accompanying ITM is learning the tunes so that you know how to! Also, I'd really hate someone to be telling me what to play all the time.
Foir example, has anyone been in a session where the Bodran player has been shouted at with the likes of "JIG", "REEL", "SLIP JIG" etc.?
I know we all use little glances to let folks know that there's a change of tune coming up which is nice & subtle but I don't go for this big ignorant habit of screaming "G" or "A"! Takes away that magical mystery somehow, & makes it too much of a science thing.
As for D'oh, he can "really, really really disagee" with me all he likes, he is entitled to his opinion.
But of course I wouldn't be arrogant enough to 'think' I am right all the time. Simple fact is I 'know' I'm right - so end of story!!
Not so long ago I watched Charlie Lennon playing fiddle on stage with Reg Hall accompanying on piano. Charlie Lennon shouted out the key change each time. All Reg Hall's changes were seamless, so maybe that means he finds it helpful. Perhaps it's just something that the older musicans have always done.
Er Jane, A hae ma doots aboot that! Lot of the old boys I know who play, literally couldn't tell you which note their finger was on, never mind what key they are playing in & yet they can sit & play wonderful music all night!
It was probably important for their performance for Charlie & Reg to go seamlessly from one tune to the next, but hey, a session is supposed to be a relaxed, informal gathering, isn't it?
I'm still not speaking to John J. (sulk!) I think he must be an undercover agent like yer man at the back of the Irish Music Mag.
I don't get it Mark (Dow)
I really, really don't get it ...
First you say:
"It's so refreshing when you come across a tune player who actually cares about the overall sound of the session. But so rare, sadly."
Then you spend much of the rest of the thread preening yourself about how much cooler your sessions are than those where people plan sets and let accompanists know what key tunes are going to be in (particularly if a certain Mr. Gilder is in that session) :
"I'd get bored always playing pre-arranged sets (even if they were only organised in the minutes beforehand)."
"There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"! We'd talk about everything else though"
- Cor!
Let us know, do you really care most about the overall sound of the session, or do you actually care most about being the spontaneous free, devil-may-care, wild and wacky guy you portray yourself as?
What you've written above is too complicated for me to get my head around, Mark. You've taken stuff I've said out of context and patched it back up together to make it look as though I'm contradicting myself, damn you. I'm allowed to do that to other people but I hate it when they do it to me, so don't! When I said tune player who "cares about the overall sound of the session" I meant it in the context of calling chords during a set produced on the fly, nothing to do with Jack's silly snippet rule. I think you can do on-the-fly sets and still be a tune player who cares about the overall sound. Anyway why are you siding with Jack? Having said that, he does need a bit of help putting his arguments together so I should be thanking you I suppose. So why? Was it the "pensioner" comment? Did I hit a raw nerve?
Nice try with the pensioner thing, but I'm afraid it's water off an otter's back..
I don't see how any of the stuff I copied is 'out of context', given that it all is from the same thread about the same subject.
I agree you can be an 'on'the fly' player and care about the sound, but I don't hold with the idea that there is anything superior about that way of doing it.
And I'm siding with Jack because he's bigger than me!
"I'm siding with Jack because he's bigger than me!"
I was about to say something about Tony Blair there but I won't because I know you hate it when people start talking politics, and I definitely won't mention America. Why would I in a thread entitled "It's in G"?
I would hope most accompanists are aware of the difference between the key signature a tune's dots are written in, and the MUCH more important mode a tune is in.
Dow, I don't really hate it when people start talking politics, I just think it's a bit of a waste of breath on a site like this when the gulf between peoples belief systems is so huge. I've watched the political/pub threads on Chiff&Nipple and they just go on for ever. You simply can't have any meaningful debate with someone who starts from the position that all the woes of the world stem from the fact that they feel they are under attack from evil aliens. There's too much stuff to wade through to establish some sort of level playing field.
So call me Jack's Poodle if you like.
I can take it ...
For reasons stated above, I prefer tune name to "key." It is the tune name that really tells me where we are going (although once in a while I forget what key that tune is, in which case, that is my fault). Some folks are unreliable in telling what the key is, for example, calling everything with one sharp, G or two sharps D. Most often the key is the first chord, or at worst, you can drone that basic chord until you get a feel for where things are going. But then you reach the B, C and other parts, which in this music are fairly frequently in different keys and modes than the first part.
I myself, when in uncharted waters, would rather stop at the end of one tune, and pick up the next tune once I have heard it a full time through. It is far better to drop out at the end of a tune than in the middle of the next after botching things up. Good accompaniment is a great part of the music, but every moment of a session does not need accompaniment.
Al Brown writes "For reasons stated above, I prefer tune name to "key." It is the tune name that really tells me where we are going (although once in a while I forget what key that tune is, in which case, that is my fault)."
TOSS THE FEATHERS! (which one, D maj or E dor?)
TOMMY PEOPLE'S REEL! (I would have no idea which Tommy People's reel you would mean)
FAHEY'S (Uh....)
Anyway, back to Dow.
Dow writes – “Jack's silly snippet rule”
I have no "snippet rule" as you say, it's just one way of doing it. You’ve completely misconstrued the context for which I presented that scenario. The reason was to provide an example of how it sometimes plays out and to illustrate how it works, more or less, and how there are certain advantages. Our sessions are primarily social events and the process of putting tunes together in that fashion lends itself well to a social gathering. We don't stop people from starting tunes unannounced and attempting mind melding for the changes, or shouting keys... or even names, and we don't tell people that they have to play snippets to be part of our session. It just so happens that the snippets option is also available. I suppose it's easier just to have one default session style allowed, and if I was visiting your session I would conform to it without complaint, but why can't you crack open the steel door on your mind and consider that there might be other ways to do things is beyond me.
Dow writes – “There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"!”
Yes, Dow, most people would say A minor, and we know they mean A dor. If in my example I would have said ‘A minor’ I’m sure you would have been quick to say, “In our session we would never say “A minor” for a tune that’s in ‘A dor.’”
Also, most people are referring to the first chord and they’re likely to say ’D maj’ when the tune is actually D mix.
Dow continues – “We'd talk about everything else though.”
We also talk about all sorts of other things at our sessions that include getting to know one another, funny stories and jokes, and even politics.
So now you can pick through this post and find something to complain about so you can avoid the actual topic at hand. Because you are Dow after all.
I play Banish Misfortune in the key of “D-Sometimes”. Sometimes in “G-Sometimes”. And I think a few measures in “C-Sometimes”. Otherwise I like to play in god-mode (but I need the cheater code).
Phantom Button has me there--when I said I like to hear the tune name rather than key, I wasn't thinking of the cases where multiple tunes share a name. After all, how much help is it if someone shouts "Gan Ainim!" just before you launch into the next one!
And I understand the distinction that between a minor and dorian tune that Dow has pointed out, but most people just call it minor, and that is close enough to get the accompanists in the right ballpark.
Re. calling out out key changes. It's not really that you expect the guitarist or whatever to take that and just run with it. If I was going into The Bag Of Spuds, say, and in the last part briefly stopped playing (flute, you see) and mouthed "Aminor' at the accompanist, it would not be because I thought that was an accurate description of the modality (as if I'd have a clue anyway) or whatever of the tune, it would be in order to get that person in the frame of mind for playing that sort of key, or to get them to slide the capo to the right fret thingy. I'd probably expect them to know an accompaniment to The Bag of Spuds, having heard it/done it many times before, but would not be at all certain that they would know the name of the tune.
Does that make sense?
Am I spoiled? I don't get why I would need to tell the experienced accompanist the upcoming key. Can't they just use their ears like the rest of the people in the session? And shouldn't they behave like the rest of the people in the session and sit out when they don't know a tune, or can't figure out the key?
Jode, are you saying you've never witnessed the snippet system at a session, or that you've only seen it when people are on a stage? (or) By "prepping" do you mean talking about the tunes you want to play first or playing snippets, or do you mean putting together set lists and such?
Often when were doing the snippet system we don't even tell the guitar or back-up player what key the tunes are in because he gets his or her clue from just hearing the snippets. Often there's no mention about keys at all.
Ottery, I have to stop playing the flute to tell the back-up what key is next as well, but I don't like it. Do you like having to stop?
When I'm playing concertina and the back-up is right next to me it's much easier, but if the back-up player is further away I have to either shout the key or mouth it and hope they got it. I still like it when they know in advance from the snippets though.
Jack [in robotic voice]: My friends, I should like to point out that we have now been discussing items under the "miscellaneous banter" category for a total of 4 minutes 11 seconds. We have more than filled our quota for the evening. As yet, I have not calculated whether we have filled our quota for the "playing of the reel", but I have an overwhelming feeling that our ratio tonight has been a little "jig-heavy", so to speak. I should like to show how open I am to other people's ideas, and therefore request that you voice your opinion on this matter.
Kevin: What you say is true, friend. There is no need to perform accurate calculations at this stage. I have been concerned about the large number of jigs this evening for approximately 25 minutes and 40 seconds. I sense that our audience is also frustrated by our skewed ratios tonight. What do you think Richard?
Richard: I am in agreement with both of you, and I thank Jack for having brought up this very delicate issue, even at such a late stage in the night. Shall we play a set of reels that starts with the tune in which I play the introduction using Gsus4 and gradual crescendo, whereupon Jack plays the tune once through on his concertina and then you take over the tune on the fiddle and then you both play together last time through, except for the very last bar and a half or so-called "coda"?
Jack: I think I know the tune of which you speak, friend. I shall play exactly 2 measures, as stipulated in the rule book. [Plays a snippet]
Richard: That is the correct tune. Sometimes I am in awe of your telepathic powers, friend. For that I should like to pass on to you the responsibility for selecting tunes for the rest of the set.
Jack: I thank you, friend. I also wish to play this tune [Plays the first 2 bars of the Cameronian Reel]
Kevin: I must interrupt you at this stage and voice my reservations as to your choice of 2nd tune. Usually we play that tune as the first tune of the set. I feel that playing it as the 2nd could cause memory lapses as the tunes adjoin, and it would be a disaster for us all if the tunes were not to link smoothly and correctly.
Punter: Hi guys, I ju...
Jack [interrupts]: You must NOT interrupt the musicians whilst discussing the music. I refer you to paragraph 1 of rule 3.24 in this book. [Hands punter book abruptly]
Punter: Oh, I...
Jack [interrupts sternly]: We want you to take it and keep it. Read it carefully at home. We play for your benefit and you must recognise this and act appropriately. There is information about our CD and website at the front. Bye.
Dow, your such a pedant - or should that be peasant? Then again why demean peasants.
What on earth is your problem with the "snippet" approach? It seems to me to be a perfectly, practical and sociable approach to session playing. I wouldn't object to people blasting out a set of reels without using it, or even tagging on additional tunes to a set that has been previewed via "snippetting". These are all valid and ok to do in sessions, however, without labouring the point too much, "snippetting does seem to me to be very logical.
Hey Jack, I have indeed experienced "snippeting". I think it is fairly common. However, I have not experienced a whole night of it, where the vast majority of sets are started in this manner.
It seems the most effective with a group of strangers. That way, you can gain consensus on some common tunes before starting a set. This cuts down on exploratory solos and potential confusion over names and versions.
In defense of Dow, I have to agree with him that a whole night of this would be tedious to me.
My comments above were more about calling out chord changes or even chords within tunes. (I can admit to being spoiled.)
Right, Jode... thanks for the clarification. Our sessions don't do the snippet style exclusively either -- all styles are welcome as long as all welcome styles.
Whenever Joe Burke came around he seemed to prefer the snippet style for the whole night if possible. As soon as someone would show up and proceed with the default session style it wouldn't be long before Joe was sitting at the bar.
The snippet session style is a gentler way to proceed and is easily eclipsed by the default style. It's impossible to begin putting tunes together as a consensus when someone just starts blasting away out of the blue on some tune. Most of the time the people blasting away are unaware of other session styles, or they don't like the control they lose over a session when the snippet system is in effect.
Well OK, if it was Joe then it might not be tedious, because he would also chat about the tunes and sources (I imagine). I've never had the pleasure of sessioning with him. That's a bit different from the average session, no?
In brief, I think you can still have a well-run session without snippets involved, and it doesn't have to be people blasting away with tunes out of the blue. On the other hand, you can have unruly competetive sessions with people stepping on each others toes and tunes.
The way some people go on it makes you wonder how they ever get any tunes played of a night - jeeeeeeeeeeez! I reckon if I tried to do the snippet thing for every single tune I started people would say "oh Dow for god's sake just get on with it and start a tune!"
"In brief, I think you can still have a well-run session without snippets involved, and it doesn't have to be people blasting away with tunes out of the blue."
I never meant to suggest that you had to use the snippet method in order to have a good session -- I was only suggesting the option. Personally, I like it for the reasons I've already stated. What I don't like is when people will only allow one session style, and in fact will rebel against any other option.
Dow wrote -- "if I tried to do the snippet thing for every single tune I started people would say 'oh Dow for god's sake just get on with it and start a tune!'"
This happened to me actually when I first tried to use the snippet system. I found that the people who complained like that tended to be the ones that usually dominate the sessions. It seemed that the snippet system robbed them of their facility for domination. If they were expected to participate with the other musicians deciding what tunes to play and taking turns suggesting medleys it would remove their ability to constantly start tunes they preferred "spontaneously.” I also noticed that these same people would string the same tunes together "spontaneously" more often than not even though their main reason for opposing the snippet system was because it isn't "spontaneous."
Well now dmarie, did you enlighten them about "Rattlin' Roarin' Willie"? If they're into Klingon jokes, I'm sure they'd appreciate finding out more about Oor Rabbie's behaviour with the ladies!
Ron P, truth be told, if I did enlighten them, I'm afraid they'd laugh, call Willie a wuss and say they could teach him a thing or two--they are quite precocious in matters of this nature! (that's to say they know quite much more than me--sad, huh!)
"It's in G"
"It's in G"
^A comment from an anecdote told by Donough in another thread.
Accompanists, do you find that fiddlers and box players often are very unreliable guides as to what key a tune is in?
How many times have you heard one shout "G" because that's the first note of a tune that's actually in C or something?
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Bren
Re: "It's in G"
This is a good one:
I agree, if your tune is in C and your first note is the fifth, G, then I'd shout C (provided the bar doesn't go GDBD or something). But there are many examples where I'd not shout out the right key ...
Example 1: The virginia reel. It really is quite plainly in Dmaj, but I'd always shout G. The first chord really has to be a G. If you shout D and strummers wade in with their big D chords it ruins it. So shout G and by the time they have got through the first bar, and providing they are using their ears, they'll know where to go. (Also, It reinforces the glare I give strummers who insist on playing a Bmin for the first chord)
Example 2: Rakish Paddy. OK so it's a D modal thing that begins with the flattened 7th. So I'd shout C and in you'd come with your C chords and, just like the above, by the end of the first bar you'll know where you are. And again, it helps people not to play an Amin.
One of the problems strummers have is a desire to look for the root all the time, but there are many many tunes in this tradition where the root simply floats around a bit. You have to be able to apply your harmonic skills to things that don't resolve like they "should".
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by ...
Re: "It's in G"
I resolve all such opportunities for misunderstanding by shouting "Gmwrurrmmpheemeem!" whenever I launch into the next tune. And still the backers always get it wrong....
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: "It's in G"
I just dispense with all noises and glare.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: "It's in G"
Backers need to know the tunes. Harmonic theory only gets you so far in ITM.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Hanley
Re: "It's in G"
Hey, "Harmonic theory" has gotten *me* pretty far....
Hmmm...."harmonic." Is that anything like "demonic?" 8- |
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: "It's in G"
It really is true that theory only gets you so far because every tune is different, even if the root key is the same. Take two A Dorian tunes, Dinky Dorians and Jolly Beggarman. In the B section in particular, the chords played (Amaj and Gmaj) are in almost opposite places.
Short of knowing the tune, the best thing an accompanist can do (bodhran players, this can mean you too!) is lay back and listen to the entire tune, either just pedalling on the root note once through or (*gasp!*) stopping entirely to hear where the changes are, then coming in once you have an idea of what you want to play.
Also remember that the less accompanists you have, the more freedom you have as far as stretching what chords you're going to play.
And yes, at least half the time (and I'm being generously low on that figure) fiddle/ whistle/ box players have no feckin' clue what key the tunes they're playing are in!
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by downtowndalebrown
Re: "It's in G"
I can't speak while playing, even if it is just to say "G" or "D", far less give out the name of the tune I'm playing. So I'm never wrong.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by grego
Re: "It's in G"
All of the above can only be true if you are really more intelligent than the strummers. (Which I'm not. Not a strummer that is).
Can't you credit them just a little bit with being able to work all that out? In which case, keeping shtum is better than shouting out the wrong key, and then blaming the backer.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Bren
Re: "It's in G"
Downtowndalebrown, I hope you don't *really* play Amaj chords for A dorian tunes
Tunes players who have never backed are very often crap at telling what key a tune is in. But then backers need to know the tunes. There's the odd occasion when it's possible to back a tune without having heard it before, but the chord structure and rhythm has to be simple and immediately obvious, and a lot of the time that's not the case. Michael has it right. It helps if the tunes player has a clue about what chords they want to hear - then they can shout out the first chord. From there the backer should recognise the tune and need no more guidance.
Don't expect help like that from tunes players though. Most of them only care about whether they themselves sound good and whether they can segue seamlessly into the next tune. They don't care about backers because they see them as 2nd class session members. It's so refreshing when you come across a tune player who actually cares about the overall sound of the session. But so rare, sadly.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Well some people don't like to think in terms of modes.
ie they may view an E Dorian tune as being in D Major (same notes) but tonic is E instead of D.
And that's grand if that's the way they view it - it's not a melody players role to tell the backers the key
(although it is nice)
Can't get away from the fact that if we can't pick up an appropriate harmony on the fly for a tune then we need to know the tunes before we play them.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
Downtow (.... etc ) says some intelligent stuff, but misses an important point in the last par. Yes, a lot of tune players don't know the key they are playing in. But this is down to two things. The first I mentioned earlier is that a lot of the tunes aren't in any key or mode, they have no centre. And secondly, because of this, it is an advantage not to think of where the centre is at all. Heck, it may even be an advantage not to know the centre, if there is one.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by ...
Re: "It's in G"
But as Dow and Beg say, you must know the tune
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by ...
Re: "It's in G"
...and too be honest, it's no fun not knowing the tune...aimlessly backing a tune you don't know is not enjoyable.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
This old chestnut again?
Anyhow, I'd agree with Bren here - when keys are shouted out, it invariably creates more problems for the accompaniest. I've been accompanying traditional Scottish, Irish & Cape Breton music for around 18 years now - and I don't get caught out that often - even with tunes I'm not familiar with (although it does happen now & again, especially if there is an outlandish key-change). The only time I like to know the keys in advance, is when playing on-stage when I would usually ask the melody player what to expect just before playing through a set.
Perhaps scraping on the fiddle now and again helps with my approach to accompaniment? (My fiddle-playing is pretty dreadful & I rarely bring it to sessions, but have ventured out with it once or twice).
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
This is why I like to play a snippet of the tunes I intend to play before I start. The other players know where I'm going, and the back-up can sus out the D tunes that start on an Amaj chord etc. Also, it's hard to play flute and shout out keys. When everyone insists on being 'spontaneous' and they ask me to think of the next tune, or the modus operandi has established to call-out-key-changes – I’ll say “D… starts on an A chord.” This only works if the back-up understood me though. Like I say, the snippet method works best.
# Posted on September 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Hi TPB - I'd agree with you re using snippets - that's probably the best approach of any to forewarn of the keychanges - indeed, it's very good for the whole session.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
My solution is that I play Flute.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: "It's in G"
Is the Michael Gill glare like the Paddington Bear stare?
Trevor
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: "It's in G"
I've been on both sides of the divide in sessions. My observations are:
1. When playing melody I can't talk. What does this say about my cognitive processing? Theres a good thread for any psychologists amongst you.
2. When playing rythym I have learnt not to trust the key suggestions of melody players who only play melody.
3. When the harmonic structure of the tune is simple enough to pick up on the fly, its generally a boring tune to accompany. Interesting tunes are often those with a floating structure or unexpected shifts in chord. And really interesting tunes are sometimes harmonically ambiguous, allowing alternate chord structures. Of course, this is impossible with multiple accompanists picking up the tune on the fly. Playing with one other strummer who knows the tune and is thinking the same way about chord alternatives is when strumming almost rivals melody playing as a peak experience.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by NeilBarr
Re: "It's in G"
I have to go with Bren & RonP on this one. If the melody players 'never' made a mistake, they might have the right to start telling the Guitar & Zouk men what to do, but Hey, who among us is free from fault?
I reckon we should all be concentrating on keeping our own garden in shape before telling other folk how to tend theirs. (Mmmm! I like that, a wee bit of fresh air just wafted onto the bus there!)
The only time I reckon there is an excuse for keys to be shouted out is if you happen to get one of those total air heads, who nearly knows two & a half chords & only really likes playing country songs anyway, in your session!
Let's face it, those guys can really, totally DESTROY a session. In a case like that I'm all for someone, or better still everyone, shouting out every single key change to totally humiliate them into hobbling away into the shadows - with shame.
Well! Come on! You have to be cruel to be kind sometimes - don't you?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
I totally, totally disagree.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
That snippet thing - yeah it's good but you lose the spontaneous feel of the session that you get when you're pulling tunes out on the fly. It would start to feel like a band practice I reckon, like a performance in fact, rather than a session. I suppose it all depends whether you're closed-minded, or wild, exciting and adventurous
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Dow isn't being very agreeable.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Ptarmigan I really, really, really disagree with you.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
I put together tunes spontaniously and then play snippets of what they're going to be. Or we'll decide collectively what tunes to play -- spontaniously.
I find that most people who yell out keys don't play flutes, can talk and play, but could have just as easily played snippets. Also, control freaks love the "spontanious-call-out-the-key" style because they don't have to gain any consensus to begin a new set -- they can just go for it. They also tend to dominate the session more than they could if they did the snippets with the other players. The snippet system is more all inclusive and sociable.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Flute players project their brain waves and back-up players have to be telepathic.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
But it's *not* spontaneous Mr. Button. It's a pre-arranged set by definition if you decide beforehand what tunes you're gonna play. A mix of both systems is probably best. Sometimes I like not knowing what's coming next. But I think I'd get bored always playing pre-arranged sets (even if they were only organised in the minutes beforehand). Maybe when you've been playing a few years you settle into a rut, a bit like a pensioner likes to know exactly what's what beforehand so that every bit of their daily lives is predictable - woe betide you if you call in their home unexpectedly w/o phoning first to warn them. I hope I never get like that...
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Come on Phantom Menace, I'm dying to read your next generalised and seemingly innocent insult
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
And you promise not to be upset if it doesn't happen exactly on cue like you expected?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Donough
Re: "It's in G"
Are you guys telepathic at your sessions?
Here's how it sometimes goes, Dow.
1st muso: How about this tune (plays a snippet)
2nd muso: oh yea, I love that tune. What do you like to play with it?
1st muso: I like this one. (plays a snippet) The second part's cool -- it goes to Ador.
2nd muso: Yea, great, that's a cool tune.
3rd muso: What about this one after those? (plays a snippet)
2nd musos: Yea... sounds good.
1st muso: Yea, I love the way that tune starts.
3rd muso: You mean how it starts on a C chord but it's in G?
1st muso: yea... that's right.
2nd muso: Really... I wondered what that was... let's go for it.
(other musos nod and they launch into it)
Back up muso: (thinks to himself) uh. ok... D... then G and the second part's in Ador... third tune's in G but starts on a Cmaj... cool.
NOTE: Often when people play the same tunes together "spontaneously" (non-snippet style) when they’re being spontaneous. *ahem*
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
From time to time, I get to play with a very amiable u-piper, who likes to agree beforehand what is the tune we are all going to play, then mixes them all up in playing and shouts out a wrong tuning every time. Now THIS is what I call catching up on the fly. Of course, it's an easy version - I usually have just three tunes to choose from when he starts up, so there's big chance I'll get it right.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Janek
Re: "It's in G"
"what is the SET we are all going to play", eve.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Janek
Re: "It's in G"
Not my day for typing
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Janek
Re: "It's in G"
"I reckon we should all be concentrating on keeping our own garden in shape before telling other folk how to tend theirs. "
Yeah, as a fiddler it's none of my business what key it's in as long as I get the intervals right. I MIGHT yell out "2 sharps", but I'm more likely to yell "Beats Me". Expecting anything different would be asking the orchidist how to plant corn.
When I'm backing, if I don't know the tune I'll find the tonal center or a bass line . When I'm pretty confident, I'll add a note, then another.
Hand/ear co-ordination is crucial. but it helps to know the tune.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: "It's in G"
I can talk and play, and can shout out the chords as I play, just to wind up the guitarist who can't think that fast as he insists on using a capo.
I never cease to be amazed by "backers" who play the wrong final chord because they don't know what key they are in at the end of a tune, never mind the start.
Personally, I shout out two sharps or one flat to
1) stop confusion with E,B,C and D
2) totally confuse non-theorists
3) see how long it takes them to grasp what mode the first tune is in. (with above-average musicians, it should be milliseconds, and they should be able to work it out before they play a chord)
One of my fiddlers is a classics teacher so I amuse him by announcing the key as 'Adrian minimus, or Caligula magnus, just to baffle everyone else.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: "It's in G"
No Mr. Button that's nothing like the convo at our session. There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"! We'd talk about everything else though.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
“totally confuse non-theorists” - because it’s all about theory is it ?
“I never cease to be amazed by "backers" who play the wrong final chord” - well if you’re trying to confuse people you’re playing with, then don’t be TOO amazed if your tactics work.
The backer should know the tune if he’s going to attempt to play it, but if we’re in a situation where he doesn’t, then if you try to make him crash and burn os show him up, then you crash and burn it for everyone not just him. The session is as strong as it’s weakest link, why attempt to make the weakest link even weaker ??
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
Oooo! So much has been said since I was last here, I just don't know where to begin, so I won't..................................
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
Good morning. I've just read your review in Living Tradition, Dick. You're a busy man.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: "It's in G"
Oh all right then! Surely, part of the fun in accompanying ITM is learning the tunes so that you know how to! Also, I'd really hate someone to be telling me what to play all the time.
Foir example, has anyone been in a session where the Bodran player has been shouted at with the likes of "JIG", "REEL", "SLIP JIG" etc.?
I know we all use little glances to let folks know that there's a change of tune coming up which is nice & subtle but I don't go for this big ignorant habit of screaming "G" or "A"! Takes away that magical mystery somehow, & makes it too much of a science thing.
As for D'oh, he can "really, really really disagee" with me all he likes, he is entitled to his opinion.
But of course I wouldn't be arrogant enough to 'think' I am right all the time. Simple fact is I 'know' I'm right - so end of story!!
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
John J. You must be mixing me up with someone else! It wasn't me Gov, honest, I was somewhere else that day! I got witnesses!
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
How come there's link to this very festival via your profile then?
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/cdf06.html
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: "It's in G"
DAM............................................
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
Not so long ago I watched Charlie Lennon playing fiddle on stage with Reg Hall accompanying on piano. Charlie Lennon shouted out the key change each time. All Reg Hall's changes were seamless, so maybe that means he finds it helpful. Perhaps it's just something that the older musicans have always done.
Jane R
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by LW
Re: "It's in G"
Er Jane, A hae ma doots aboot that! Lot of the old boys I know who play, literally couldn't tell you which note their finger was on, never mind what key they are playing in & yet they can sit & play wonderful music all night!
It was probably important for their performance for Charlie & Reg to go seamlessly from one tune to the next, but hey, a session is supposed to be a relaxed, informal gathering, isn't it?
I'm still not speaking to John J. (sulk!) I think he must be an undercover agent like yer man at the back of the Irish Music Mag.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: "It's in G"
I don't get it Mark (Dow)
I really, really don't get it ...
First you say:
"It's so refreshing when you come across a tune player who actually cares about the overall sound of the session. But so rare, sadly."
Then you spend much of the rest of the thread preening yourself about how much cooler your sessions are than those where people plan sets and let accompanists know what key tunes are going to be in (particularly if a certain Mr. Gilder is in that session) :
"I'd get bored always playing pre-arranged sets (even if they were only organised in the minutes beforehand)."
"There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"! We'd talk about everything else though"
- Cor!
Let us know, do you really care most about the overall sound of the session, or do you actually care most about being the spontaneous free, devil-may-care, wild and wacky guy you portray yourself as?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
What, do I have to choose, like, one or the other?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
What you've written above is too complicated for me to get my head around, Mark. You've taken stuff I've said out of context and patched it back up together to make it look as though I'm contradicting myself, damn you. I'm allowed to do that to other people but I hate it when they do it to me, so don't! When I said tune player who "cares about the overall sound of the session" I meant it in the context of calling chords during a set produced on the fly, nothing to do with Jack's silly snippet rule. I think you can do on-the-fly sets and still be a tune player who cares about the overall sound. Anyway why are you siding with Jack? Having said that, he does need a bit of help putting his arguments together so I should be thanking you I suppose. So why? Was it the "pensioner" comment? Did I hit a raw nerve?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Nice try with the pensioner thing, but I'm afraid it's water off an otter's back..
I don't see how any of the stuff I copied is 'out of context', given that it all is from the same thread about the same subject.
I agree you can be an 'on'the fly' player and care about the sound, but I don't hold with the idea that there is anything superior about that way of doing it.
And I'm siding with Jack because he's bigger than me!
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
I think all this
"My session is better than your session" stuff is very entertaining, so please don't think I'm complaining ...
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
I never said my session was better than his session. I'm sure his session is much tighter, and I'm sure the onlookers enjoy it immensely
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
"I'm siding with Jack because he's bigger than me!"
I was about to say something about Tony Blair there but I won't because I know you hate it when people start talking politics, and I definitely won't mention America. Why would I in a thread entitled "It's in G"?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
I would hope most accompanists are aware of the difference between the key signature a tune's dots are written in, and the MUCH more important mode a tune is in.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: "It's in G"
Yes, they need a bloody good spanking if they don't.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Dow, I don't really hate it when people start talking politics, I just think it's a bit of a waste of breath on a site like this when the gulf between peoples belief systems is so huge. I've watched the political/pub threads on Chiff&Nipple and they just go on for ever. You simply can't have any meaningful debate with someone who starts from the position that all the woes of the world stem from the fact that they feel they are under attack from evil aliens. There's too much stuff to wade through to establish some sort of level playing field.
So call me Jack's Poodle if you like.
I can take it ...
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
For reasons stated above, I prefer tune name to "key." It is the tune name that really tells me where we are going (although once in a while I forget what key that tune is, in which case, that is my fault). Some folks are unreliable in telling what the key is, for example, calling everything with one sharp, G or two sharps D. Most often the key is the first chord, or at worst, you can drone that basic chord until you get a feel for where things are going. But then you reach the B, C and other parts, which in this music are fairly frequently in different keys and modes than the first part.
I myself, when in uncharted waters, would rather stop at the end of one tune, and pick up the next tune once I have heard it a full time through. It is far better to drop out at the end of a tune than in the middle of the next after botching things up. Good accompaniment is a great part of the music, but every moment of a session does not need accompaniment.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: "It's in G"
Al Brown writes "For reasons stated above, I prefer tune name to "key." It is the tune name that really tells me where we are going (although once in a while I forget what key that tune is, in which case, that is my fault)."
TOSS THE FEATHERS! (which one, D maj or E dor?)
TOMMY PEOPLE'S REEL! (I would have no idea which Tommy People's reel you would mean)
FAHEY'S (Uh....)
Anyway, back to Dow.
Dow writes – “Jack's silly snippet rule”
I have no "snippet rule" as you say, it's just one way of doing it. You’ve completely misconstrued the context for which I presented that scenario. The reason was to provide an example of how it sometimes plays out and to illustrate how it works, more or less, and how there are certain advantages. Our sessions are primarily social events and the process of putting tunes together in that fashion lends itself well to a social gathering. We don't stop people from starting tunes unannounced and attempting mind melding for the changes, or shouting keys... or even names, and we don't tell people that they have to play snippets to be part of our session. It just so happens that the snippets option is also available. I suppose it's easier just to have one default session style allowed, and if I was visiting your session I would conform to it without complaint, but why can't you crack open the steel door on your mind and consider that there might be other ways to do things is beyond me.
Dow writes – “There's very little talk about the music, and you certainly would never hear a tune is in "Ador"!”
Yes, Dow, most people would say A minor, and we know they mean A dor. If in my example I would have said ‘A minor’ I’m sure you would have been quick to say, “In our session we would never say “A minor” for a tune that’s in ‘A dor.’”
Also, most people are referring to the first chord and they’re likely to say ’D maj’ when the tune is actually D mix.
Dow continues – “We'd talk about everything else though.”
We also talk about all sorts of other things at our sessions that include getting to know one another, funny stories and jokes, and even politics.
So now you can pick through this post and find something to complain about so you can avoid the actual topic at hand. Because you are Dow after all.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Keep going lads..this is great compared to work.
I dont know what I do. I dont really analyse it that much...i just enjoy playing music with my friends!
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: "It's in G"
ahh snippets - ye thats what it is alot of the time.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: "It's in G"
Yep, and I picked up the concept in Ireland. Guess where Stefanpaz lives.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
I play Banish Misfortune in the key of “D-Sometimes”. Sometimes in “G-Sometimes”. And I think a few measures in “C-Sometimes”. Otherwise I like to play in god-mode (but I need the cheater code).
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by fidkid
Re: "It's in G"
Phantom Button has me there--when I said I like to hear the tune name rather than key, I wasn't thinking of the cases where multiple tunes share a name. After all, how much help is it if someone shouts "Gan Ainim!" just before you launch into the next one!
And I understand the distinction that between a minor and dorian tune that Dow has pointed out, but most people just call it minor, and that is close enough to get the accompanists in the right ballpark.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: "It's in G"
Re. calling out out key changes. It's not really that you expect the guitarist or whatever to take that and just run with it. If I was going into The Bag Of Spuds, say, and in the last part briefly stopped playing (flute, you see) and mouthed "Aminor' at the accompanist, it would not be because I thought that was an accurate description of the modality (as if I'd have a clue anyway) or whatever of the tune, it would be in order to get that person in the frame of mind for playing that sort of key, or to get them to slide the capo to the right fret thingy. I'd probably expect them to know an accompaniment to The Bag of Spuds, having heard it/done it many times before, but would not be at all certain that they would know the name of the tune.
Does that make sense?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
Am I spoiled? I don't get why I would need to tell the experienced accompanist the upcoming key. Can't they just use their ears like the rest of the people in the session? And shouldn't they behave like the rest of the people in the session and sit out when they don't know a tune, or can't figure out the key?
I can see prepping for a gig, but in a session?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: "It's in G"
I think yer spoiled, Jode.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
Jode, are you saying you've never witnessed the snippet system at a session, or that you've only seen it when people are on a stage? (or) By "prepping" do you mean talking about the tunes you want to play first or playing snippets, or do you mean putting together set lists and such?
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Often when were doing the snippet system we don't even tell the guitar or back-up player what key the tunes are in because he gets his or her clue from just hearing the snippets. Often there's no mention about keys at all.
Ottery, I have to stop playing the flute to tell the back-up what key is next as well, but I don't like it. Do you like having to stop?
When I'm playing concertina and the back-up is right next to me it's much easier, but if the back-up player is further away I have to either shout the key or mouth it and hope they got it. I still like it when they know in advance from the snippets though.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
[Overhears at a Plough And Stars session]
Jack [in robotic voice]: My friends, I should like to point out that we have now been discussing items under the "miscellaneous banter" category for a total of 4 minutes 11 seconds. We have more than filled our quota for the evening. As yet, I have not calculated whether we have filled our quota for the "playing of the reel", but I have an overwhelming feeling that our ratio tonight has been a little "jig-heavy", so to speak. I should like to show how open I am to other people's ideas, and therefore request that you voice your opinion on this matter.
Kevin: What you say is true, friend. There is no need to perform accurate calculations at this stage. I have been concerned about the large number of jigs this evening for approximately 25 minutes and 40 seconds. I sense that our audience is also frustrated by our skewed ratios tonight. What do you think Richard?
Richard: I am in agreement with both of you, and I thank Jack for having brought up this very delicate issue, even at such a late stage in the night. Shall we play a set of reels that starts with the tune in which I play the introduction using Gsus4 and gradual crescendo, whereupon Jack plays the tune once through on his concertina and then you take over the tune on the fiddle and then you both play together last time through, except for the very last bar and a half or so-called "coda"?
Jack: I think I know the tune of which you speak, friend. I shall play exactly 2 measures, as stipulated in the rule book. [Plays a snippet]
Richard: That is the correct tune. Sometimes I am in awe of your telepathic powers, friend. For that I should like to pass on to you the responsibility for selecting tunes for the rest of the set.
Jack: I thank you, friend. I also wish to play this tune [Plays the first 2 bars of the Cameronian Reel]
Kevin: I must interrupt you at this stage and voice my reservations as to your choice of 2nd tune. Usually we play that tune as the first tune of the set. I feel that playing it as the 2nd could cause memory lapses as the tunes adjoin, and it would be a disaster for us all if the tunes were not to link smoothly and correctly.
Punter: Hi guys, I ju...
Jack [interrupts]: You must NOT interrupt the musicians whilst discussing the music. I refer you to paragraph 1 of rule 3.24 in this book. [Hands punter book abruptly]
Punter: Oh, I...
Jack [interrupts sternly]: We want you to take it and keep it. Read it carefully at home. We play for your benefit and you must recognise this and act appropriately. There is information about our CD and website at the front. Bye.
[Recording cuts out]
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Dow, if only you could use your skills towards good instead fo evil.
# Posted on September 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Dow, your such a pedant - or should that be peasant? Then again why demean peasants.
What on earth is your problem with the "snippet" approach? It seems to me to be a perfectly, practical and sociable approach to session playing. I wouldn't object to people blasting out a set of reels without using it, or even tagging on additional tunes to a set that has been previewed via "snippetting". These are all valid and ok to do in sessions, however, without labouring the point too much, "snippetting does seem to me to be very logical.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
Exactly, Ron. But I think the problem might have more to do with Dow being a sociopath.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
"why demean peasants"?
well maybe opression under the feudal system is what makes them mean.
Anyway, I reckon pheasants are grouse.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Bren
Re: "It's in G"
"Exactly, Ron. But I think the problem might have more to do with Dow being a sociopath."
D'accord.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
Gee *thanks* lads :-}
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
Hey Jack, I have indeed experienced "snippeting". I think it is fairly common. However, I have not experienced a whole night of it, where the vast majority of sets are started in this manner.
It seems the most effective with a group of strangers. That way, you can gain consensus on some common tunes before starting a set. This cuts down on exploratory solos and potential confusion over names and versions.
In defense of Dow, I have to agree with him that a whole night of this would be tedious to me.
My comments above were more about calling out chord changes or even chords within tunes. (I can admit to being spoiled.)
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Jode
Re: "It's in G"
Right, Jode... thanks for the clarification. Our sessions don't do the snippet style exclusively either -- all styles are welcome as long as all welcome styles.
Whenever Joe Burke came around he seemed to prefer the snippet style for the whole night if possible. As soon as someone would show up and proceed with the default session style it wouldn't be long before Joe was sitting at the bar.
The snippet session style is a gentler way to proceed and is easily eclipsed by the default style. It's impossible to begin putting tunes together as a consensus when someone just starts blasting away out of the blue on some tune. Most of the time the people blasting away are unaware of other session styles, or they don't like the control they lose over a session when the snippet system is in effect.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Well OK, if it was Joe then it might not be tedious, because he would also chat about the tunes and sources (I imagine). I've never had the pleasure of sessioning with him. That's a bit different from the average session, no?
In brief, I think you can still have a well-run session without snippets involved, and it doesn't have to be people blasting away with tunes out of the blue. On the other hand, you can have unruly competetive sessions with people stepping on each others toes and tunes.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Jode
Re: "It's in G"
The way some people go on it makes you wonder how they ever get any tunes played of a night - jeeeeeeeeeeez! I reckon if I tried to do the snippet thing for every single tune I started people would say "oh Dow for god's sake just get on with it and start a tune!"
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
"In brief, I think you can still have a well-run session without snippets involved, and it doesn't have to be people blasting away with tunes out of the blue."
I never meant to suggest that you had to use the snippet method in order to have a good session -- I was only suggesting the option. Personally, I like it for the reasons I've already stated. What I don't like is when people will only allow one session style, and in fact will rebel against any other option.
Dow wrote -- "if I tried to do the snippet thing for every single tune I started people would say 'oh Dow for god's sake just get on with it and start a tune!'"
This happened to me actually when I first tried to use the snippet system. I found that the people who complained like that tended to be the ones that usually dominate the sessions. It seemed that the snippet system robbed them of their facility for domination. If they were expected to participate with the other musicians deciding what tunes to play and taking turns suggesting medleys it would remove their ability to constantly start tunes they preferred "spontaneously.” I also noticed that these same people would string the same tunes together "spontaneously" more often than not even though their main reason for opposing the snippet system was because it isn't "spontaneous."
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
That's a very interesting and insightful observation, Jack.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: "It's in G"
So is it in G or what ?
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
So we're all in agreement then?
What was the question?
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Ottery
Re: "It's in G"
Phew!
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
I'm going to kick off with that nice Bmin chord instead of G
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
Once again, our great debate about which position, approach or custom is best ends with the answer "it depends."
All things in moderation!
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: "It's in G"
"That's a very interesting and insightful observation, Jack."
Ok... who are you, and what did you do with Dow?
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Could he possibly have been sarcastic maybe ?
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: "It's in G"
Maybe he went to bed?
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
I think he may have been kidnapped... or abducted by aliens... oh wait, he was already abducted by aliens -- that's why he's the way he is.
hahahaha
There's a probe nearing Uranus.
# Posted on September 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Who's anus?
The old jokes are the best. Then again maybe not.
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
Like the really old: How is the Starship Enterprise like toilet paper? They both circle Uranus wiping out the Klingons.
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by dmarie
Re: "It's in G"
Ewwwwww
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: "It's in G"
Sorry. Learned that from my 7th grade orchestra.
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by dmarie
Re: "It's in G"
Well now dmarie, did you enlighten them about "Rattlin' Roarin' Willie"? If they're into Klingon jokes, I'm sure they'd appreciate finding out more about Oor Rabbie's behaviour with the ladies!
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: "It's in G"
Ron P, truth be told, if I did enlighten them, I'm afraid they'd laugh, call Willie a wuss and say they could teach him a thing or two--they are quite precocious in matters of this nature! (that's to say they know quite much more than me--sad, huh!)
# Posted on September 16th 2005 by dmarie
Re: "It's in G"
"Like the really old: How is the Starship Enterprise like toilet paper? They both circle Uranus wiping out the Klingons."
Gives a whole new meaning to "Beam me up, Scotty."
# Posted on September 16th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: "It's in G"
Oh, aggghhhh(finger in throat)----good one!!!
# Posted on September 16th 2005 by dmarie
Re: "It's in G"
Now you've got a comeback for those vulgar 6th graders....
# Posted on September 16th 2005 by Will Harmon