Anyone who attended the All-Ireland céilí bands competition in Letterkenny last weekend would have heard 12 examples of good bands - there wasn' a bad one there. I think it's about a good blend of instruments, a nice balanced sound and plenty of lift; after all the music is primarily for dancing.
On a separate note for anyone who was there, how would you have placed the bands who competed? For what it's worth my choice would have been Turloughmore, Allow and ..... well I'm not so sure about third place!
Fleadh: 8 melody instruments, drums and piano. Everyone plays the tune all the time in unison, except the last two.
Ceili: anything goes really. Just look at http://www.setdancingnews.net/ and scroll down to the link to ceili bands. Lots of banjos and boxes here. And dodgy t-shirts.
The early bands (pre 1950) were even more eclectic. Orchestral instruments, harmony and the tune broken up between different sets of instruments. Drums not always in these bands. Often a very straight sound, takes a bit of getting used to.
Isn't it a band that plays for a ceilidhe dance?
And if they include the word in their name, it kind of indicates the kinds of bookings they wish to receive.
That seems pretty simple to me.
Or am I missing something?
Well, there is the definition, and there is the characterisation...
To me the most conspicuous character of ceili bands I have heard (contrasted with "grupai cheoil") is the presence of the battery, which to me is annoying. I am much happier with a bodhran for percussion.
Any idea of when this trend started? In the (precious few) recordings of ceili bands of old that I have (i.e. from 30's-40's), there is no battery, though there is often a piano, which I believe is less frequent these days.
Drums on Siamsa Gaedheal 1931 78rpm. Check the tracks on Irish Dance Music and Past Masters of Irish Dance Music (Topic). Probably the earliest (in Ireland anyway - good chance that there were band recordings in US before this that had drums).
It seemed an odd*ish* decision in Letterkenny to give Naomh Phadraig 1st place in the senior band competition...there were more deserving bands and I believe a lot of people were of this mindset.
So if the adjudicators all, independently, have totted up their marks, separately, for the individual bands and then at the end meet up to confer, why is it that it takes so long? Surely they should be totting up the marks as they have them put down on paper, add them up for each band, and hey you have your 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Seems to me a lot of tweaking is going on....never mind the dragging out of the thing til all hours
I agree about the odd decision in Letterkenny. In my opinion Crosskeys were thebest, they were very lively and gave an enjoyable preformance. The winning band had bad timing, and a drummer who didn't use the block. Although all the bands were of a high standard, none were perfect. There was no band that came near the likes of The Tain, The Kilfinora or The Bridge Ceili Bands.
I think that a ceili band is a band who can play at a ceili. Many of the bands who win the Ceili Band competition can't play at a ceili, which is originally what these bands were for.
I also agree that the results dragged out. At the All-Britain, the results are put up on a board, similar to the eurovision song contest, it only takes a few minutes, and is far more exciting! The 3 singers were a bit much!! Great venue for the competition though, sometimes in the Dome, the rain is louder than the band.
Agree about the singers Ani, especially the third one who was asked to sing before the result was announced (especially when you consider the Fear a'Tí had them in his hand at this stage) - a good job nobody got lynched!
I agree! Didn't think Naomh Padriag deserved to win. However, the trend seems to be that the band wins for three years in a row and then quits the Fleadh scene so a Naomh Padraig win is odds on for next year. As a Fleadh adjudicator myself, my results would have been Turloughmore 1st, Allow 2nd, and probably Crosskey's 3rd. Still can't understand how Naomh Padraig won.
Smuit wrote: "So if the adjudicators all, independently, have totted up their marks, separately, for the individual bands and then at the end meet up to confer, why is it that it takes so long? Surely they should be totting up the marks as they have them put down on paper, add them up for each band, and hey you have your 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Seems to me a lot of tweaking is going on....never mind the dragging out of the thing til all hours"
- Just to clarify how the results are compiled. The judges dont meet up after wards and confer. They have about 7 adjudicators. Each gives their 1,2,3, etc. Then a couple of the top comhaltas crowd meet up backstage and work out the winners via a points system much like the eurovision i.e 12 points to 1st place, 10 to 2nd etc. Once added up all the points u have a result. In a way its a fair way, but in a situation like last Sat. where Naomh Padraig didnt deserve to win, it just makes you wonder what goes on back there, as you have no definitive way of ever checking it afterwards.
Finally, spare a thought for Turloughmore, been 2nd place for the last 4 years in a row, when the hell are they ever going to win it?
Up until now "Three-in-a -row" bands like the Kilfenora, Táin and Ennis were the exception (I think there were only ever 2 others - Dundalk's Siamsa and Tipperary's Ormond in the 50 year history of the Fleadh). While it's largely accepted that these were all deserving winners, I'd hate to think that the currency is now being devalued by it becoming the norm for every winner to be guaranteed a 3 year run! Personally I doubt that this is the case and that the 2005 result may be due to some unexpected aberration in the complex marking system. I know that the Turloughmore worked very hard to overturn the apparent "hex" on them in recent years and the result of this was very obvious in their performance on the night. While Cork's Allow Céilí Band did enough to win in any other year (I'm sure we'll see them as deserving champions eventually) the Turloughmore with their brilliantly executed tune variations should definitely have taken the trophy in 2005.
It's all a load of nonsense anyway. That's the most important thing to remember. Subjectivity is the name of the game - there's really damn all else to go on. Despite what may or may not be set down in rules or guidelines for the competitions, almost every adjud I encountered went by gut instinct. The absolute pits for this is the grupa cheoil competition - it's a total lottery, and what wins one day will be dismissed out of hand the next. It's a big mess, as the org doesn't seem to be able to bite the bullet and let people put together really innovative groups.
Well I competed in Letterkenny in one of the bands last weekend and have absolutely no hard feelings. I do it for the craic and enjoyment first and foremost as I get a real buzz out of playing, OTOH it's a pathetic system to see Naomh Padraig coming out with first place with better quality bands having performed on the night, and I agree about the Cork band. They were done out of it in my opinion.
I think it's more than likely going to be N.P again next year and with that knowledge I'm not going to be participating in the fleadh cheoil til the following year when at least the bands may be on more even ground to start out with.
And I'm not the only one. I spoke to another member of a different band, before the results had been read out, we expected that N.P were going to get it -through the jinxed system that currently exists, and they swore blind they won't be involved again if it rang true.
Yeah, I do it for the fun ultimately, but a LOT of practice, commitment, effort and sacrifices are made by everybody and it's just not good enough!!
I’m uncomfortable with it, too, grego. And, yet, I once got suckered into being a judge. I thought it was just a friendly gathering of musicians for a bit of fun, but when it was over, I was verbally abused by some people who took it seriously. Never again.
Some contests seem to be just an excuse for a festival and nobody gets worked up over the competitive part or takes it as a serious measure of anything. Of course, some competitions are dead serious career maker/breakers. A lot of folks are into that scene, so I just leave it to ‘em.
Hmmmm....We were discussing the rules of the competition in fairness, and I think most people involved in traditonal music are genuine about doing it for the sake of the music and for the fun and enjoyment aspect.
Of course there are competitive types in a competition!!
a competition that isn't judged fairly..... I think it's a fair point, and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'motives', good or bad, by the individual 150 people who were taking part.
Well said Smuit ! Whatever about the outcome we can't thank the various band members enough for their imagination in selecting great tunes, their efforts in rehearsing them in the many weeks leading up to the Fleadh and their performance on the night which resulted in one of the greatest céilí band events in years - as has been said before this was one of those competitions when there wasn't a single weak band to be heard and it may be a cliche, but music was definitely the big winner on the night!
I agree w/ Bannerman.....Turloughmore was my choice. As a dancer and musician, I find their music and LIFT terrific. And the Cork band would have been my 2nd place (I, too, heard from many folks that they preferred the Cork band!)....but I think "we" all knew going into it that last years' winners would be crowned again, unless they really messed up...too bad the judges aren't blindfolded and the bands anonymous!
In an attempt to get some balance into this discussion I would have to ask is it a coincidence that the main supporter of the Turloughmore rights campaign is a 'bannerman' with obvious Clare loyalties? Why wasn't this discussion about guaranteed three in a row titles raised when Ennis were filming a program about same which had a hollywood style happy ending...? was this not undue pressure on adjudicators to give three in a row? NP had to put up with seconds and thirds throughout their three in a row.... maybe this is ok as Ennis after all come from the 'home' of Irish music... morya!
With respect to the length of time taken to give results, I would agree that it was ridiculous and to be honest, someone should have been lynched!
But I will mention that it was the first unanimous victory by a ceili band in over ten years....mmmmm how's that for 'unexpected aberration in the complex marking system' bannerman?
It's always going to be an advantage to play last in any competition which may have something to do with three in a rows but come on people... it's not that painful to accept that a band from Meath can play ceili music too...
go on...
a bit of balance.....
ps Cork band were mighty, as were the Turloughmore... every dog has his day... NP were battling for five years too before a win.
Yes, that´s the problem. A lot of musicians enjoy playing in competitions and, even worse, a lot of people enjoy listening to them playing in competitions
If you doubt it, go along to the finals of the ceili band competition on the final night of any All Ireland Fleadh.
ceili band definition
ceili band definition
I know 'em when I hear 'em, but how would you define a ceili band?
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by mcswiss
Re: ceili band definition
Anyone who attended the All-Ireland céilí bands competition in Letterkenny last weekend would have heard 12 examples of good bands - there wasn' a bad one there. I think it's about a good blend of instruments, a nice balanced sound and plenty of lift; after all the music is primarily for dancing.
On a separate note for anyone who was there, how would you have placed the bands who competed? For what it's worth my choice would have been Turloughmore, Allow and ..... well I'm not so sure about third place!
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by Bannerman
Re: ceili band definition
Fleadh: 8 melody instruments, drums and piano. Everyone plays the tune all the time in unison, except the last two.
Ceili: anything goes really. Just look at http://www.setdancingnews.net/ and scroll down to the link to ceili bands. Lots of banjos and boxes here. And dodgy t-shirts.
The early bands (pre 1950) were even more eclectic. Orchestral instruments, harmony and the tune broken up between different sets of instruments. Drums not always in these bands. Often a very straight sound, takes a bit of getting used to.
# Posted on August 31st 2005 by continuo
Re: ceili band definition
Isn't it a band that plays for a ceilidhe dance?
And if they include the word in their name, it kind of indicates the kinds of bookings they wish to receive.
That seems pretty simple to me.
Or am I missing something?
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by AlBrown
Re: ceili band definition
a band that plays ceili music
i reckon
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by lisaniska
Re: ceili band definition
I second AlBrown and lisaniska on this.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: ceili band definition
Yeah but what's ceili music? What's a ceilidhe dance? Does that mean a band that plays for set dances isn't a ceili band?
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by continuo
Re: ceili band definition
Well, there is the definition, and there is the characterisation...
To me the most conspicuous character of ceili bands I have heard (contrasted with "grupai cheoil") is the presence of the battery, which to me is annoying. I am much happier with a bodhran for percussion.
Any idea of when this trend started? In the (precious few) recordings of ceili bands of old that I have (i.e. from 30's-40's), there is no battery, though there is often a piano, which I believe is less frequent these days.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by sixholes
Re: ceili band definition
Drums on Siamsa Gaedheal 1931 78rpm. Check the tracks on Irish Dance Music and Past Masters of Irish Dance Music (Topic). Probably the earliest (in Ireland anyway - good chance that there were band recordings in US before this that had drums).
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by continuo
Re: ceili band definition
It seemed an odd*ish* decision in Letterkenny to give Naomh Phadraig 1st place in the senior band competition...there were more deserving bands and I believe a lot of people were of this mindset.
So if the adjudicators all, independently, have totted up their marks, separately, for the individual bands and then at the end meet up to confer, why is it that it takes so long? Surely they should be totting up the marks as they have them put down on paper, add them up for each band, and hey you have your 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Seems to me a lot of tweaking is going on....never mind the dragging out of the thing til all hours
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by smuit
Re: ceili band definition
I agree about the odd decision in Letterkenny. In my opinion Crosskeys were thebest, they were very lively and gave an enjoyable preformance. The winning band had bad timing, and a drummer who didn't use the block. Although all the bands were of a high standard, none were perfect. There was no band that came near the likes of The Tain, The Kilfinora or The Bridge Ceili Bands.
I think that a ceili band is a band who can play at a ceili. Many of the bands who win the Ceili Band competition can't play at a ceili, which is originally what these bands were for.
I also agree that the results dragged out. At the All-Britain, the results are put up on a board, similar to the eurovision song contest, it only takes a few minutes, and is far more exciting! The 3 singers were a bit much!! Great venue for the competition though, sometimes in the Dome, the rain is louder than the band.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by ani
Re: ceili band definition
Agree about the singers Ani, especially the third one who was asked to sing before the result was announced (especially when you consider the Fear a'Tí had them in his hand at this stage) - a good job nobody got lynched!
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by Bannerman
Re: ceili band definition
a variety of people playing instrumnets of the ceili variety for there own enjoyment and for the enjoyment of others.
# Posted on September 1st 2005 by S.McMullen
Re: ceili band definition
I agree! Didn't think Naomh Padriag deserved to win. However, the trend seems to be that the band wins for three years in a row and then quits the Fleadh scene so a Naomh Padraig win is odds on for next year. As a Fleadh adjudicator myself, my results would have been Turloughmore 1st, Allow 2nd, and probably Crosskey's 3rd. Still can't understand how Naomh Padraig won.
Smuit wrote: "So if the adjudicators all, independently, have totted up their marks, separately, for the individual bands and then at the end meet up to confer, why is it that it takes so long? Surely they should be totting up the marks as they have them put down on paper, add them up for each band, and hey you have your 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Seems to me a lot of tweaking is going on....never mind the dragging out of the thing til all hours"
- Just to clarify how the results are compiled. The judges dont meet up after wards and confer. They have about 7 adjudicators. Each gives their 1,2,3, etc. Then a couple of the top comhaltas crowd meet up backstage and work out the winners via a points system much like the eurovision i.e 12 points to 1st place, 10 to 2nd etc. Once added up all the points u have a result. In a way its a fair way, but in a situation like last Sat. where Naomh Padraig didnt deserve to win, it just makes you wonder what goes on back there, as you have no definitive way of ever checking it afterwards.
Finally, spare a thought for Turloughmore, been 2nd place for the last 4 years in a row, when the hell are they ever going to win it?
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by ceolistix
Re: ceili band definition
Up until now "Three-in-a -row" bands like the Kilfenora, Táin and Ennis were the exception (I think there were only ever 2 others - Dundalk's Siamsa and Tipperary's Ormond in the 50 year history of the Fleadh). While it's largely accepted that these were all deserving winners, I'd hate to think that the currency is now being devalued by it becoming the norm for every winner to be guaranteed a 3 year run! Personally I doubt that this is the case and that the 2005 result may be due to some unexpected aberration in the complex marking system. I know that the Turloughmore worked very hard to overturn the apparent "hex" on them in recent years and the result of this was very obvious in their performance on the night. While Cork's Allow Céilí Band did enough to win in any other year (I'm sure we'll see them as deserving champions eventually) the Turloughmore with their brilliantly executed tune variations should definitely have taken the trophy in 2005.
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by Bannerman
Re: ceili band definition
It's all a load of nonsense anyway. That's the most important thing to remember. Subjectivity is the name of the game - there's really damn all else to go on. Despite what may or may not be set down in rules or guidelines for the competitions, almost every adjud I encountered went by gut instinct. The absolute pits for this is the grupa cheoil competition - it's a total lottery, and what wins one day will be dismissed out of hand the next. It's a big mess, as the org doesn't seem to be able to bite the bullet and let people put together really innovative groups.
Though 2nd 4 years in a row? Ouch.
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by continuo
Re: ceili band definition
Well I competed in Letterkenny in one of the bands last weekend and have absolutely no hard feelings. I do it for the craic and enjoyment first and foremost as I get a real buzz out of playing, OTOH it's a pathetic system to see Naomh Padraig coming out with first place with better quality bands having performed on the night, and I agree about the Cork band. They were done out of it in my opinion.
I think it's more than likely going to be N.P again next year and with that knowledge I'm not going to be participating in the fleadh cheoil til the following year when at least the bands may be on more even ground to start out with.
And I'm not the only one. I spoke to another member of a different band, before the results had been read out, we expected that N.P were going to get it -through the jinxed system that currently exists, and they swore blind they won't be involved again if it rang true.
Yeah, I do it for the fun ultimately, but a LOT of practice, commitment, effort and sacrifices are made by everybody and it's just not good enough!!
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by smuit
Re: ceili band definition
This competitive music thing seems so strange.
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by grego
Re: ceili band definition
I’m uncomfortable with it, too, grego. And, yet, I once got suckered into being a judge. I thought it was just a friendly gathering of musicians for a bit of fun, but when it was over, I was verbally abused by some people who took it seriously. Never again.
Some contests seem to be just an excuse for a festival and nobody gets worked up over the competitive part or takes it as a serious measure of anything. Of course, some competitions are dead serious career maker/breakers. A lot of folks are into that scene, so I just leave it to ‘em.
# Posted on September 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: ceili band definition
Hmmmm....We were discussing the rules of the competition in fairness, and I think most people involved in traditonal music are genuine about doing it for the sake of the music and for the fun and enjoyment aspect.
Of course there are competitive types in a competition!!
a competition that isn't judged fairly..... I think it's a fair point, and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'motives', good or bad, by the individual 150 people who were taking part.
# Posted on September 3rd 2005 by smuit
Re: ceili band definition
Well said Smuit ! Whatever about the outcome we can't thank the various band members enough for their imagination in selecting great tunes, their efforts in rehearsing them in the many weeks leading up to the Fleadh and their performance on the night which resulted in one of the greatest céilí band events in years - as has been said before this was one of those competitions when there wasn't a single weak band to be heard and it may be a cliche, but music was definitely the big winner on the night!
# Posted on September 4th 2005 by Bannerman
Re: ceili band definition
I agree w/ Bannerman.....Turloughmore was my choice. As a dancer and musician, I find their music and LIFT terrific. And the Cork band would have been my 2nd place (I, too, heard from many folks that they preferred the Cork band!)....but I think "we" all knew going into it that last years' winners would be crowned again, unless they really messed up...too bad the judges aren't blindfolded and the bands anonymous!
# Posted on September 4th 2005 by Ceolagusrince
Re: ceili band definition
In an attempt to get some balance into this discussion I would have to ask is it a coincidence that the main supporter of the Turloughmore rights campaign is a 'bannerman' with obvious Clare loyalties? Why wasn't this discussion about guaranteed three in a row titles raised when Ennis were filming a program about same which had a hollywood style happy ending...? was this not undue pressure on adjudicators to give three in a row? NP had to put up with seconds and thirds throughout their three in a row.... maybe this is ok as Ennis after all come from the 'home' of Irish music... morya!
With respect to the length of time taken to give results, I would agree that it was ridiculous and to be honest, someone should have been lynched!
But I will mention that it was the first unanimous victory by a ceili band in over ten years....mmmmm how's that for 'unexpected aberration in the complex marking system' bannerman?
It's always going to be an advantage to play last in any competition which may have something to do with three in a rows but come on people... it's not that painful to accept that a band from Meath can play ceili music too...
go on...
a bit of balance.....
ps Cork band were mighty, as were the Turloughmore... every dog has his day... NP were battling for five years too before a win.
# Posted on September 15th 2005 by Tonyceol
Re: ceili band definition
Music should not be played in competitions. It should be played and enjoyed
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by ennisman
Re: ceili band definition
.....and those who enjoy playing in competitions ? They can't all be being forced into it, and there would appear to be a lot of them who do.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Kenny
Re: ceili band definition
Yes, that´s the problem. A lot of musicians enjoy playing in competitions and, even worse, a lot of people enjoy listening to them playing in competitions
If you doubt it, go along to the finals of the ceili band competition on the final night of any All Ireland Fleadh.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by murfbox