Do any of ye backers use counter melodys much in your backing ?
What approach would/do you take when using it, ie do people
focus on arpeggios/ particular mode the tune is in or even
pentatonic scales or have some other approach ?
Not me, pretty much straight chord progressions, although I do walk the bass up and down underneath those chords sometimes. When I fingerpick, I generally alternate between basses and fifths with my thumb and arpeggiate (to use that word as a verb) with my first three fingers in a pretty traditional fashion, and sometimes throw in some leading notes and whatnot as I pick. But I don't think that really counts as a true countermelody.
Where does good taste draw the line between who should play counterpoint, and who shouldn't? Zouk counterpoint sounds great, so does a nice counter-melody on the mandolin. But when everyone has a lash at it - flutes, fiddles, whistles - it can get pretty ugly.
I’m a big fan of “naked fiddle”, but I’m also fond of arrangements with some counterpoint, whether planned or spontaneous. Chris has a good counterpoint reference above. My experience in working out counterpoint has been similar. I think my best ideas have come from improvising on the spot. I shouldn’t even call them “my” ideas. I don’t know where they come from. If you’re prepared and open to the moment, they just happen.
Of course, you don’t want to harmonize every note of every tune. As Popeye used to say, “Enough is too much!” For me, the De Danann album with Johnny Moynihan is a great example of getting it right. There’s great counterpoint, great unison, and tension and balance between the two. And when the album finishes, it leaves a nice aftertaste.
“Where does good taste draw the line between who should play counterpoint, and who shouldn't?”
That’s a good question, grego. For me, bouzouki counterpoint is maybe the greatest innovation in modern ITM. A guitar can do similar things, but it doesn’t have the same charm. Fiddle harmonies can be very powerful and moving, but can also pull things too far in a classical sounding direction. Not a bad thing in itself (I love string quartets), but sort of a novelty for ITM.
I’ve experimented a tiny bit with clawhammer banjo accompaniment/counterpoint for Irish tunes. Maybe it’s just because I was having so much fun, but I thought it had real possibilities. Nice plucky tone, Finn-ish filligree possibilities. Some day, I’ll get back to it.
Not for Irish music, no, not much.. I'm not agin it, with taste and moderation, it's just something I don't do much of. For all other kinds of music all the time.
I'm with Al in not considering arpeggios as counter melody. That's just what blues players call "Breaking up the chord," although if done sparsely it can amount to playing a pentatonic scale counter melody.
I use counterpoint on the zouk, playing riffs of the tune in my accompaniment. I try not to use basic chords/progressions but if there is a guitar player or something there doing I will not try to do anything fancy but just makes sure it doesn't clash. You gotta listen most the time. Like Ron says, just use your ears.
Like Z'man and others, I do, but it's a completely intuitive process, mostly with the zouk. On guitar, I think that I play a lot more... um... 'conventionally'...
I find that I do cross-pick bits of the main melody, then paraphrase it from time to time, on guitar.
Fiddler TJ says that I haven't played a complete triad in years, but I have no idea, really... Maybe it's just a ... fear of committment... <GG>
I studied counterpoint, read all sorts of things about it, but it seems to have just ... sieved away... somehow...
Coyote I’m using your book at the moment, it’s great.
(particulary I think because it doesn’t let you take the lazy man option, ie here are the chords for this tune, here’s a counterpoint for this all tabbed out and easy to read, but rather show you how and forces you to work it out for yourself, basing the accompaniment on the tune rather than forcing a particular accompaniment over the tune).
Again thanks for all the replies, it’s interesting to see how different people approach backing.
Ohmygod!
I got to the end of this string, and discovered that it was all a civilized discussion about backing/accompaniment that doen't involve any derision or slagging! A few goodnatured odd comments here and there, but all in all, a respectful discussion.
This is a watershed moment for the Yellow Board!
Hi BegF, I meant to comment on this thread weeks ago but forgot and then remembered and then forgot again.
I love counterpoint especially on zouk. I particularly enjoy Alec Finn's style. I also like the very different approach Ciaran Curran has used for his backing in Altan.
I sometimes use it myself, but am more comfortable with straight chords. It can be difficult to play counterpoint when you're playing with melody players who haven't got good rhythm. They seem to be much more comfortable playing against chords, I find.
On the other hand, if your tune players have got good rhythm, you can safely experiment with counterpoint in the knowledge that the melody players aren't listening for the backers to provide the rhythm for them. Even then it can be quite hard to do, and I think you have to know the tune even more intimately than you do when you're just strumming chords.
It's also important not to forget that even if you're playing countermelody, you're still a rhythm player, and you need to make your counterpoint nice and punchy and spiky and rhythmic. Listen to Alec Finn who is brilliant at this. A lot of players seem to use hammer-ons to fill in the 3rds like this: K: Dmaj |[D2A2]d2 (DF)d2|(DF)d>A G2d>A|D... You often find that in dorian tunes etc the 3rd won't be present in the tune and it's important to respond to that. I sometimes hammer-on the 4th or 2nd in cases like these.
The thing I'm talking about with Ciaran Curran is his fill-in runs up the scale which sound beautiful on his Sobell - nice and twangy. The main thing is just to use your own creativity with this stuff and not get too upset if you can't pull it off so well when you're improvising. Bear in mind that most of what you hear on recordings is pre-calculated countermelody, and *not* improvised. You can tell this because it's exactly the same each time through the tune, note for note. Like those harmonies that run perfectly alongside the tune in stuff like Donal Lunny's Planxty work - they're all worked out beforehand so that the recording will sound awesome. I'm not saying that these players can't improvise countermelodies, obviously, just that you don't need to worry if in a session you can't pull off something that sounds as tight as their recordings.
My greatest pleasure in accompanying on guitar is to be alongside a good counterpoint player, with a strong melody instrument on the other side of me. When I say good I really meant like-minded in terms of where the chords should go. This can be rehearsed but if you play with someone for a while and click then it's a great feeling. I've only once had this experience with a visiting American Bouzouki player (Todd are you out there?).
On the “clicking” thing I was watching the planxty video last night and Andy Irvine was saying the thing he enjoyed about Lunny is that he choses to play things that Irvine would play himself if he could play two instruments at once, must be great fun.
Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Do any of ye backers use counter melodys much in your backing ?
What approach would/do you take when using it, ie do people
focus on arpeggios/ particular mode the tune is in or even
pentatonic scales or have some other approach ?
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by BegF
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Personally, I use my ears (and my fingers) and don't consciously "think" about what I'm doing .
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Then again, I'm probably guilty of not thinking a lot of the time - being a guitarist........
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Not me, pretty much straight chord progressions, although I do walk the bass up and down underneath those chords sometimes. When I fingerpick, I generally alternate between basses and fifths with my thumb and arpeggiate (to use that word as a verb) with my first three fingers in a pretty traditional fashion, and sometimes throw in some leading notes and whatnot as I pick. But I don't think that really counts as a true countermelody.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Do any of ye backers use counter melodys much in your backing ?
Yes.
What approach would/do you take when using it, ie do people
focus on arpeggios/ particular mode the tune is in
Yes
or even pentatonic scales or have some other approach ?
Yes
See
http://geocities.com/coyotebanjo/instruction/buildcho.txt
http://geocities.com/coyotebanjo/instruction/impcontr.txt
http://geocities.com/coyotebanjo/instruction/modes.txt
or
"Celtic Backup"
See also the playing of Finn, Moynihan, Irvine, Lunny, McGlynn, among other backers.
chris smith
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by coyotebanjo
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Where does good taste draw the line between who should play counterpoint, and who shouldn't? Zouk counterpoint sounds great, so does a nice counter-melody on the mandolin. But when everyone has a lash at it - flutes, fiddles, whistles - it can get pretty ugly.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by grego
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
I am with Grego, one or two instruments at it in a session is more than enough. And when it is done right, it really adds to the tunes.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by seaniemcg
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
I’m a big fan of “naked fiddle”, but I’m also fond of arrangements with some counterpoint, whether planned or spontaneous. Chris has a good counterpoint reference above. My experience in working out counterpoint has been similar. I think my best ideas have come from improvising on the spot. I shouldn’t even call them “my” ideas. I don’t know where they come from. If you’re prepared and open to the moment, they just happen.
Of course, you don’t want to harmonize every note of every tune. As Popeye used to say, “Enough is too much!” For me, the De Danann album with Johnny Moynihan is a great example of getting it right. There’s great counterpoint, great unison, and tension and balance between the two. And when the album finishes, it leaves a nice aftertaste.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
“Where does good taste draw the line between who should play counterpoint, and who shouldn't?”
That’s a good question, grego. For me, bouzouki counterpoint is maybe the greatest innovation in modern ITM. A guitar can do similar things, but it doesn’t have the same charm. Fiddle harmonies can be very powerful and moving, but can also pull things too far in a classical sounding direction. Not a bad thing in itself (I love string quartets), but sort of a novelty for ITM.
I’ve experimented a tiny bit with clawhammer banjo accompaniment/counterpoint for Irish tunes. Maybe it’s just because I was having so much fun, but I thought it had real possibilities. Nice plucky tone, Finn-ish filligree possibilities. Some day, I’ll get back to it.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Yes, definitely, a bit on the 'zouk, ala Lunny, etc.
Straight strumming canbe boring over time, arpeggios are not as easy as on guitar, so, yes.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
What?
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Or could you repeat the question?
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Pass.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Not for Irish music, no, not much.. I'm not agin it, with taste and moderation, it's just something I don't do much of. For all other kinds of music all the time.
I'm with Al in not considering arpeggios as counter melody. That's just what blues players call "Breaking up the chord," although if done sparsely it can amount to playing a pentatonic scale counter melody.
KFG
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by KFG
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
I use counterpoint on the zouk, playing riffs of the tune in my accompaniment. I try not to use basic chords/progressions but if there is a guitar player or something there doing I will not try to do anything fancy but just makes sure it doesn't clash. You gotta listen most the time. Like Ron says, just use your ears.
# Posted on August 17th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Like Z'man and others, I do, but it's a completely intuitive process, mostly with the zouk. On guitar, I think that I play a lot more... um... 'conventionally'...
I find that I do cross-pick bits of the main melody, then paraphrase it from time to time, on guitar.
Fiddler TJ says that I haven't played a complete triad in years, but I have no idea, really... Maybe it's just a ... fear of committment... <GG>
I studied counterpoint, read all sorts of things about it, but it seems to have just ... sieved away... somehow...
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Thanks for all the replies.
Coyote I’m using your book at the moment, it’s great.
(particulary I think because it doesn’t let you take the lazy man option, ie here are the chords for this tune, here’s a counterpoint for this all tabbed out and easy to read, but rather show you how and forces you to work it out for yourself, basing the accompaniment on the tune rather than forcing a particular accompaniment over the tune).
Again thanks for all the replies, it’s interesting to see how different people approach backing.
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by BegF
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Ohmygod!
I got to the end of this string, and discovered that it was all a civilized discussion about backing/accompaniment that doen't involve any derision or slagging! A few goodnatured odd comments here and there, but all in all, a respectful discussion.
This is a watershed moment for the Yellow Board!
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Yes, well said Al Brown!
# Posted on August 18th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Hi BegF, I meant to comment on this thread weeks ago but forgot and then remembered and then forgot again.
I love counterpoint especially on zouk. I particularly enjoy Alec Finn's style. I also like the very different approach Ciaran Curran has used for his backing in Altan.
I sometimes use it myself, but am more comfortable with straight chords. It can be difficult to play counterpoint when you're playing with melody players who haven't got good rhythm. They seem to be much more comfortable playing against chords, I find.
On the other hand, if your tune players have got good rhythm, you can safely experiment with counterpoint in the knowledge that the melody players aren't listening for the backers to provide the rhythm for them. Even then it can be quite hard to do, and I think you have to know the tune even more intimately than you do when you're just strumming chords.
It's also important not to forget that even if you're playing countermelody, you're still a rhythm player, and you need to make your counterpoint nice and punchy and spiky and rhythmic. Listen to Alec Finn who is brilliant at this. A lot of players seem to use hammer-ons to fill in the 3rds like this: K: Dmaj |[D2A2]d2 (DF)d2|(DF)d>A G2d>A|D... You often find that in dorian tunes etc the 3rd won't be present in the tune and it's important to respond to that. I sometimes hammer-on the 4th or 2nd in cases like these.
The thing I'm talking about with Ciaran Curran is his fill-in runs up the scale which sound beautiful on his Sobell - nice and twangy. The main thing is just to use your own creativity with this stuff and not get too upset if you can't pull it off so well when you're improvising. Bear in mind that most of what you hear on recordings is pre-calculated countermelody, and *not* improvised. You can tell this because it's exactly the same each time through the tune, note for note. Like those harmonies that run perfectly alongside the tune in stuff like Donal Lunny's Planxty work - they're all worked out beforehand so that the recording will sound awesome. I'm not saying that these players can't improvise countermelodies, obviously, just that you don't need to worry if in a session you can't pull off something that sounds as tight as their recordings.
# Posted on September 6th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
My greatest pleasure in accompanying on guitar is to be alongside a good counterpoint player, with a strong melody instrument on the other side of me. When I say good I really meant like-minded in terms of where the chords should go. This can be rehearsed but if you play with someone for a while and click then it's a great feeling. I've only once had this experience with a visiting American Bouzouki player (Todd are you out there?).
# Posted on September 6th 2005 by Donough
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
Thanks for the update guys.
# Posted on September 6th 2005 by BegF
Re: Backers/Alongsiders – Counterpoint.
On the “clicking” thing I was watching the planxty video last night and Andy Irvine was saying the thing he enjoyed about Lunny is that he choses to play things that Irvine would play himself if he could play two instruments at once, must be great fun.
# Posted on September 7th 2005 by BegF