I'm struggling a bit with basses for reels - it's hard to do both ornamentation and the 'right' basses. eg if you need to play an A chord then you need to play E on the outside row to match the direction of the bellows, which means it's that much harder to do an E roll. Or it's just hard to work out variations on the fly to fit in with the bellow changes of the basses. So it seems you need to choose either basses *or* a more developed melody.
What's better? Or am I just not trying hard enough?!
1. Leave the bass out. Even with John Nolan's or Billy McComiskey's bass arrangements you probably are going to find places where the chord you want is not in the direction you need.
2. Find an alternate bass.
3. Find a different ornament. There are other tricks you can do to ornament that E besides the Roll.
Or in this example, you can play the E on the outside row, which just beautifully happens to be on the pull. You can then do what you like with it - roll, triplet, and A bass.
Lots of practice for me then. I was hoping someone would say, 'don't bother with basses'. Or that switching to C#D would make playing with basses easier.
I overdid the 3-finger triplet because I was too lazy for rolls, so cut them out completely, but it's probably time for a comeback.
I've just been listening to some box CDs & realised I've been playing basses too heavy & oompah-oompah which is probably why I get annoyed when it sounds discordant or struggle to keep the right hand fingerboard stable.
Out of interest can you be a proper box player if you don't use basses? Because I started on melodeon I use them a lot, well for slower stuff anyway, but there's no point in sessions with guitarists. Would practice time be better spent working on being a nice melody player?
Of course you can be a proper box player... heck you can even be a proper box player even if you use them incorrectly. There were an awful lot of box players back in the day who simply tapped out the time on one or two of the bass buttons and never even seemed concerned that the chord was one that didn't work in the tune .
Just remember an awful lot of box players in Ireland played (and still play) the Hohner Black Dot where the basses were arranged for playing in the key of B which as you might imagine is not very useful for playing much of anything in Irish Music. Some converted their boxes over to a Paolo Soprani layout or later to a McComiskey or Nolan layout but others just never bothered.
I would say playing basses is probably more important if you are planning on playing solo; in a session no one will really miss it if you omit them (and it will probably make it easier for the guitar players since their first choice of a chord to play may not match what you can actually play on your Box). In any case, yes, its better to be a really good melody player who never touches the basses than a mediocre player who plays both sides (Personally I spend little time working on the basses.. I would like to at some point, but I have more than enough to learn on the melody side for now).
Siobhan,
Your very question shames me. I never even tried to do any ornamentation while I was doing basses, up till now if I am doing basses, I shy away from ornaments.
A little bass goes a long way--I have never tried to learn how to do the bass all the time oompah style because although I respect the skill it takes, it can be a bit much. Just a little bass at the beginning or end of a phrase for emphasis.
But I always end tunes with a big fat chord, something my session-mates have begun referring to as my "big finish."
not on his recordings, problem with the box is you only have one type of bass, be it a major, minor, modal, 7th ... its personal preference really. however with most tunes a combination of these is needed to compliment to accompany a tune properly. I have all my bases set to minor as its probably the least incorrect sound.
I was just listening to 'With Friends Like These' & he has a couple of tunes with very light basses on (Thady Casey's & Lady Gordon). I'd forgotten what a great CD it was.
I play with the 3rds out of the basses so they sound less 'wrong' (old box didn't have a stop so I got them taped over) & cross them sometimes (like D & E) to get a 6th or 7th 'ish' sound - but it's not the real thing.
I hope it wasn't a shaming question, because I'm a beginner & my ornamentation sucks along with much else. I'll keep the basses for where they fit in without too many tears (nice slow hornpipes & treble jigs). Otherwise I'll end up hating the instrument. I guess the right hand shouldn't compromise to fit in with the chords (like weird fingering to get everything on the push, to fit in with a B minor).
I vaguely remember someone once saying some guy took the left hand completely off his box to lighten it. Interesting idea.
S1obhan, just worry about the right hand for now. There are enough challenges in learning that to keep you occupied for years. If you get to the point where that gets easy then it is time to start adding the basses in.
Jackie Daley has a great story about Joe Burke having a stuck button on his left side before he's due to go onstage. "What'll I do ?" asks Joe. "Don't worry", says Jackie, "just use another one..."
I'm coming to this a bit late, away on hols. for a few days but I'm interested in the topic. Ah yes, that's a good story about Joe and Jackie. I did a class with Ann Conroy (Joe Burke's partner) a while back. Her theory was that since there were just 8 buttons on the lhs, you just played around till one of 'em sounded OK. And her left hand playing was very effective...
Seriously though, I am also trying to learn to use the lhs - and there seems to be a whole mixture of approaches. At a local class (B/C tuning) the tutor starts on the D/G bass/ chords - oompah, oompah style - bass on the foot tap, chord on the upbeat.. then progresses to same using other buttons in pairs, then progresses to skipping and leaving them out!! Does that make sense??... sort of as it encourages you to play them on auto, just like tapping the foot.
Having listened carefully to a good few recordings and live players, I now often hear this bass/chord .. bass/chord going on faintly in the background. I know this derided in some quarters as being too predictable but it does work in well if the lh is playing very lightly - just touching the button as if its hot. I've also noticed that in reels, it's better sometimes to skip the bass by barely touching it and aim to get the offbeat with a light chord. Then there is the aproach of playing a long chord or bass if you have a run of notes in one particular direction. Others just pick out certain notes to emphasise in a tune and embellish these with the left hand. It's also nice when you hear a tune played just with the right hand first time around and then the left hand joins in to add variety on the next time around the tune etc.
These are some of the aspects that I've noticed - just wish I could meld them together in practice and make them coherent. Suspect it takes a long time. I wonder about the advice of just concentrating on the melody side until that is strong. I suspect that one may need to develop them simultaneously to an extent. Certainly, one has to slow right down on the melody side to even start working out the left. I recall asking our local tutor what she did when learning a new tune and her theory was to learn the melody of the tune first but very quickly she added in the lhs and worked out possibilities together.
I'd love to hear other people's views on this as it's very hard to get specific advice on this aspect of box playing.
To quote the wounded hussar: "At a local class (B/C tuning) the tutor starts on the D/G bass/ chords - oompah, oompah style - bass on the foot tap, chord on the upbeat."
Now, isn't that what you all despise about us piano accordion players, even though we all (myself included) don't do that? <smile>
I do favor heavily the learning of melody, and getting it's timing and nuances the way I'd like. In a session I'll rarely touch the left side at all, but if there is sparse or no accompaniment, I may, from time to time, lean on a bass note or so, but most often just the bass root note, not usually a full bass chord.
I found this a very refreshing topic as a PA player, since it justifies a lot of what the instrument offers in terms of capabilities. Unfortunately, just like the bodhran, (ouch), there are many who take it into their hands who don't have the time or desire to learn to play it properly.
's a tiny bit harsh - do box players really despise piano box? I used to play piano accordion more, but just preferred button box - maybe because of its crankiness. Playing across the rows seems to make the phrasing more defined, though not all of the time admittedly. Sometimes piano accordion sounds too smooth. When I went back to the piano accordion after learning box, a 'proper' piano accordion player asked if I played button box - most piano accordionist wouldn't work the bellows so much. To her it sounded a bit odd but to me it sounded more right. Go figure!
Mind I love Alan Kelly - & his lovely wooden saltarelle! Apparently he ignores the basses completely. One really good thing is that you can do bass runs & stuff, & use the single notes (is there a name for those?? Dave Mallinson calls it the fundamental) for counterpoint.
As for oompah-oompah - sometimes it just actually is the most effective accompaniment. Isn't Karen Tweed's advice on basses to listen to guitarists - which is good advice for button box too? Also to mimic the drones on pipes. One tune where I use basses heavily is Idir Ard Mhor is Eochaill (from the Danu CD). First time round, using the bass & chord together as a drone keeping it as smooth as possible; the second time round, b-c-c-c-c-c very lightly (rather than bass-chord-chord which'd sound too waltzy). Also b-c-X-c-X-c where X is a gap, or X-c-X-c-c-X. (Sorry but I don't know how to notate this more intelligently)... Playing chord as a drone & hitting the bass note on the off beat sounds good for slow tunes generally. It might sound a bit syncopatedly cheesy, but there we go.
Other slightly naff tricks I'm enjoying: 3-finger triplet on the bass note, & putting the opening A ornament in the 'Knotted Cord' onto the left hand (playing A-F-A chords or A-G-A quickly, as a triplet). Also playing simple tunes on the bass notes just for fun (Out on the Ocean or Sally Gardens). I have 12 chords & basses so more notes to play with.
Sorry to be going on but I have no-one to ask because I can't get to sessions for a bit. I guess piano accordionists have, ahem, a much closer relationship with their left hand, so I'd appreciate knowing techniques & things you use.
Better get back to work, this is major procrastination.
I don't know if despise is too strong or not, you'd have to judge yourself based on the reaction given by some when you walk into a session with a PA. But surely not all feel that way, so I may be too harsh the other way.
As for the playing sounding too smooth, I believe that argument was heavily weighed against the B/C box from the melodian players, or even D/D# box players as well. Didn't it do much to make the playing smoother?
But, as you say, you don't have to play it that way. I also try to do a bit more bellows work, and be very light on the keys to add a bit of bounce and lilt rather than just rolling through the notes. I enjoy Jimmy Keane and Alan Kelly as well, and as every instrument has it's own nuances, the PA does as well, yet I think it can be made to fit if the playing is done with sensitivity to the music.
I'm not trained on the PA, and I come to the music from the flute and whistle, so I have some sensitivity to how it should sound, although the flute is extrememly smooth, but still there is a rhythm that must be carried properly.
I do almost no bass work, largely because as a flute player I am not used to doing a lot on the basses, I do selective fundamental bass and counterbass things just to add some emphasis, but I rarely do much in the way of full chords and even less oom-pah stuff. So I have very little to add in the way of playing the left hand, my dexterity is not so good on that side to do bass walks or playing of countermelody stuff, but it's something to work on.
All that to say that I'm still looking at picking up a B/C box, although I'm not sure I will have the time to learn to play it properly. I'm leaning toward the Irish DanceMaster line, as it seems to be built by someone with a great love to produce quality instruments at the most affordable of prices, but even at the affordable prices he has, it will take a while to find the funds.
Thanks again for your kind words, and keep playing.
Question for box players
Question for box players
I'm struggling a bit with basses for reels - it's hard to do both ornamentation and the 'right' basses. eg if you need to play an A chord then you need to play E on the outside row to match the direction of the bellows, which means it's that much harder to do an E roll. Or it's just hard to work out variations on the fly to fit in with the bellow changes of the basses. So it seems you need to choose either basses *or* a more developed melody.
What's better? Or am I just not trying hard enough?!
# Posted on August 8th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Question for box players
Well I think there are three solutions.
1. Leave the bass out. Even with John Nolan's or Billy McComiskey's bass arrangements you probably are going to find places where the chord you want is not in the direction you need.
2. Find an alternate bass.
3. Find a different ornament. There are other tricks you can do to ornament that E besides the Roll.
# Posted on August 8th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Question for box players
Hmm. Playing reels in A on a B/C box and then adding basses - wouldn't that call for cranning on the air button?
Steve (novice C#D player who can't get the bass hand working at all)
# Posted on August 8th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Question for box players
try putting in a three finger E triplet instead of the roll on the E.
problem solved
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
Or in this example, you can play the E on the outside row, which just beautifully happens to be on the pull. You can then do what you like with it - roll, triplet, and A bass.
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by triplet
Re: Question for box players
Lots of practice for me then. I was hoping someone would say, 'don't bother with basses'. Or that switching to C#D would make playing with basses easier.
I overdid the 3-finger triplet because I was too lazy for rolls, so cut them out completely, but it's probably time for a comeback.
I've just been listening to some box CDs & realised I've been playing basses too heavy & oompah-oompah which is probably why I get annoyed when it sounds discordant or struggle to keep the right hand fingerboard stable.
Out of interest can you be a proper box player if you don't use basses? Because I started on melodeon I use them a lot, well for slower stuff anyway, but there's no point in sessions with guitarists. Would practice time be better spent working on being a nice melody player?
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Question for box players
Of course you can be a proper box player... heck you can even be a proper box player even if you use them incorrectly. There were an awful lot of box players back in the day who simply tapped out the time on one or two of the bass buttons and never even seemed concerned that the chord was one that didn't work in the tune
.
Just remember an awful lot of box players in Ireland played (and still play) the Hohner Black Dot where the basses were arranged for playing in the key of B which as you might imagine is not very useful for playing much of anything in Irish Music. Some converted their boxes over to a Paolo Soprani layout or later to a McComiskey or Nolan layout but others just never bothered.
I would say playing basses is probably more important if you are planning on playing solo; in a session no one will really miss it if you omit them (and it will probably make it easier for the guitar players since their first choice of a chord to play may not match what you can actually play on your Box). In any case, yes, its better to be a really good melody player who never touches the basses than a mediocre player who plays both sides (Personally I spend little time working on the basses.. I would like to at some point, but I have more than enough to learn on the melody side for now).
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Question for box players
well james keane doesn't believe that playing the bass on an accordion complements the tune, and he's not too shabby on the box!
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
I must disagree about that statement about James. Every time i have ever heard James play by himself he has used his basses to back the tune up.
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by tws
Re: Question for box players
Siobhan,
Your very question shames me. I never even tried to do any ornamentation while I was doing basses, up till now if I am doing basses, I shy away from ornaments.
A little bass goes a long way--I have never tried to learn how to do the bass all the time oompah style because although I respect the skill it takes, it can be a bit much. Just a little bass at the beginning or end of a phrase for emphasis.
But I always end tunes with a big fat chord, something my session-mates have begun referring to as my "big finish."
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Question for box players
not on his recordings, problem with the box is you only have one type of bass, be it a major, minor, modal, 7th ... its personal preference really. however with most tunes a combination of these is needed to compliment to accompany a tune properly. I have all my bases set to minor as its probably the least incorrect sound.
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
Al your basses set to minor?????
Or have you the 3rds blocked off,
meaning,just the 1st and 5th on the chordal buttons?
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by P.browne
Re: Question for box players
my apologies, just the thirds blocked off
no need for mass hysteria people ...
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
U in Scotland?
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by P.browne
Re: Question for box players
nope, in the middle of Ireland. why do you ask???
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
I was just listening to 'With Friends Like These' & he has a couple of tunes with very light basses on (Thady Casey's & Lady Gordon). I'd forgotten what a great CD it was.
I play with the 3rds out of the basses so they sound less 'wrong' (old box didn't have a stop so I got them taped over) & cross them sometimes (like D & E) to get a 6th or 7th 'ish' sound - but it's not the real thing.
I hope it wasn't a shaming question, because I'm a beginner & my ornamentation sucks along with much else. I'll keep the basses for where they fit in without too many tears (nice slow hornpipes & treble jigs). Otherwise I'll end up hating the instrument. I guess the right hand shouldn't compromise to fit in with the chords (like weird fingering to get everything on the push, to fit in with a B minor).
I vaguely remember someone once saying some guy took the left hand completely off his box to lighten it. Interesting idea.
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Question for box players
ha ha, i know of a few people that could do with having the left side of their box lightened alright!!!
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Question for box players
S1obhan, just worry about the right hand for now. There are enough challenges in learning that to keep you occupied for years. If you get to the point where that gets easy then it is time to start adding the basses in.
# Posted on August 9th 2005 by bill_mchale
Re: Question for box players
Jackie Daley has a great story about Joe Burke having a stuck button on his left side before he's due to go onstage. "What'll I do ?" asks Joe. "Don't worry", says Jackie, "just use another one..."
# Posted on August 10th 2005 by Patkiwi
Re: Question for box players
I'm coming to this a bit late, away on hols. for a few days but I'm interested in the topic. Ah yes, that's a good story about Joe and Jackie. I did a class with Ann Conroy (Joe Burke's partner) a while back. Her theory was that since there were just 8 buttons on the lhs, you just played around till one of 'em sounded OK. And her left hand playing was very effective...
Seriously though, I am also trying to learn to use the lhs - and there seems to be a whole mixture of approaches. At a local class (B/C tuning) the tutor starts on the D/G bass/ chords - oompah, oompah style - bass on the foot tap, chord on the upbeat.. then progresses to same using other buttons in pairs, then progresses to skipping and leaving them out!! Does that make sense??... sort of as it encourages you to play them on auto, just like tapping the foot.
Having listened carefully to a good few recordings and live players, I now often hear this bass/chord .. bass/chord going on faintly in the background. I know this derided in some quarters as being too predictable but it does work in well if the lh is playing very lightly - just touching the button as if its hot. I've also noticed that in reels, it's better sometimes to skip the bass by barely touching it and aim to get the offbeat with a light chord. Then there is the aproach of playing a long chord or bass if you have a run of notes in one particular direction. Others just pick out certain notes to emphasise in a tune and embellish these with the left hand. It's also nice when you hear a tune played just with the right hand first time around and then the left hand joins in to add variety on the next time around the tune etc.
These are some of the aspects that I've noticed - just wish I could meld them together in practice and make them coherent. Suspect it takes a long time. I wonder about the advice of just concentrating on the melody side until that is strong. I suspect that one may need to develop them simultaneously to an extent. Certainly, one has to slow right down on the melody side to even start working out the left. I recall asking our local tutor what she did when learning a new tune and her theory was to learn the melody of the tune first but very quickly she added in the lhs and worked out possibilities together.
I'd love to hear other people's views on this as it's very hard to get specific advice on this aspect of box playing.
# Posted on August 12th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: Question for box players
To quote the wounded hussar: "At a local class (B/C tuning) the tutor starts on the D/G bass/ chords - oompah, oompah style - bass on the foot tap, chord on the upbeat."
Now, isn't that what you all despise about us piano accordion players, even though we all (myself included) don't do that? <smile>
I do favor heavily the learning of melody, and getting it's timing and nuances the way I'd like. In a session I'll rarely touch the left side at all, but if there is sparse or no accompaniment, I may, from time to time, lean on a bass note or so, but most often just the bass root note, not usually a full bass chord.
I found this a very refreshing topic as a PA player, since it justifies a lot of what the instrument offers in terms of capabilities. Unfortunately, just like the bodhran, (ouch), there are many who take it into their hands who don't have the time or desire to learn to play it properly.
Best, Steve
# Posted on August 15th 2005 by N9YTY
Re: Question for box players
's a tiny bit harsh - do box players really despise piano box? I used to play piano accordion more, but just preferred button box - maybe because of its crankiness. Playing across the rows seems to make the phrasing more defined, though not all of the time admittedly. Sometimes piano accordion sounds too smooth. When I went back to the piano accordion after learning box, a 'proper' piano accordion player asked if I played button box - most piano accordionist wouldn't work the bellows so much. To her it sounded a bit odd but to me it sounded more right. Go figure!
Mind I love Alan Kelly - & his lovely wooden saltarelle! Apparently he ignores the basses completely. One really good thing is that you can do bass runs & stuff, & use the single notes (is there a name for those?? Dave Mallinson calls it the fundamental) for counterpoint.
As for oompah-oompah - sometimes it just actually is the most effective accompaniment. Isn't Karen Tweed's advice on basses to listen to guitarists - which is good advice for button box too? Also to mimic the drones on pipes. One tune where I use basses heavily is Idir Ard Mhor is Eochaill (from the Danu CD). First time round, using the bass & chord together as a drone keeping it as smooth as possible; the second time round, b-c-c-c-c-c very lightly (rather than bass-chord-chord which'd sound too waltzy). Also b-c-X-c-X-c where X is a gap, or X-c-X-c-c-X. (Sorry but I don't know how to notate this more intelligently)... Playing chord as a drone & hitting the bass note on the off beat sounds good for slow tunes generally. It might sound a bit syncopatedly cheesy, but there we go.
Other slightly naff tricks I'm enjoying: 3-finger triplet on the bass note, & putting the opening A ornament in the 'Knotted Cord' onto the left hand (playing A-F-A chords or A-G-A quickly, as a triplet). Also playing simple tunes on the bass notes just for fun (Out on the Ocean or Sally Gardens). I have 12 chords & basses so more notes to play with.
Sorry to be going on but I have no-one to ask because I can't get to sessions for a bit. I guess piano accordionists have, ahem, a much closer relationship with their left hand, so I'd appreciate knowing techniques & things you use.
Better get back to work, this is major procrastination.
# Posted on August 15th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: Question for box players
H S1obhan, and thanks for your kind reply.
But surely not all feel that way, so I may be too harsh the other way.
I don't know if despise is too strong or not, you'd have to judge yourself based on the reaction given by some when you walk into a session with a PA.
As for the playing sounding too smooth, I believe that argument was heavily weighed against the B/C box from the melodian players, or even D/D# box players as well. Didn't it do much to make the playing smoother?
But, as you say, you don't have to play it that way. I also try to do a bit more bellows work, and be very light on the keys to add a bit of bounce and lilt rather than just rolling through the notes. I enjoy Jimmy Keane and Alan Kelly as well, and as every instrument has it's own nuances, the PA does as well, yet I think it can be made to fit if the playing is done with sensitivity to the music.
I'm not trained on the PA, and I come to the music from the flute and whistle, so I have some sensitivity to how it should sound, although the flute is extrememly smooth, but still there is a rhythm that must be carried properly.
I do almost no bass work, largely because as a flute player I am not used to doing a lot on the basses, I do selective fundamental bass and counterbass things just to add some emphasis, but I rarely do much in the way of full chords and even less oom-pah stuff. So I have very little to add in the way of playing the left hand, my dexterity is not so good on that side to do bass walks or playing of countermelody stuff, but it's something to work on.
All that to say that I'm still looking at picking up a B/C box, although I'm not sure I will have the time to learn to play it properly. I'm leaning toward the Irish DanceMaster line, as it seems to be built by someone with a great love to produce quality instruments at the most affordable of prices, but even at the affordable prices he has, it will take a while to find the funds.
Thanks again for your kind words, and keep playing.
# Posted on August 21st 2005 by N9YTY