So the recent thread about the bootleg CD's prompted this.
Anyways, I have about 5 hours of session recordings of some rather well known professional players snagged at one of the week-long workshops recently. All of them were acquired with permission. I was considering starting up a website to store them and distribute to friends - but not to the general public. I would be losing money on the project, which would really be for my own entertainment benefit and those of friends. My fear is that somebody could get a hold of the tracks and try to sell them or "mass distribute" them...
Can you just make copies and send it to your friends? That way you know exactly who gets a hold of it. As long as you have the musicians approval to share with your friends I think that it'd be ok to do that, but I don't think that you should post them on the internet because someone might choose to download and distribute them.
I would say that the permission you got was to record for your own use. Anything more than that is out of order. If you want to use them on a website, you will need to get their permission all over again.
Wormdiet, I'm going to back backer. The vast majority of people who record sessions do it to learn tunes, for their own personal use, and it's highly probable that's what these well known players assumed you intended to do with them.
That said, I've sent off a couple tracks to Jack and Will to get the names of some tunes, but I didn't mention who was playing (although they guessed, the clever bastards), but it wasn't in the spirit of "hey look, everybody, manna from heaven! Unreleased recordings of famous musicians! Free for everybody!" It was more in the interest of learning the tunes (ie. personal use).
Exactly, I wouldn't mind someone recording me to learn the tunes I was playing, but if they posted it on the internet and then I found that suddenly everyone had these songs I'd be pretty p*ssed.
Now, if they told you it would be ok to share with a few friends that's a different story. But, you need to share it only with those few friends. If you don't have that permission find a way to ask them.
I would get permission. The internet's an open book, and you can't assume other people won't stumble upon your website. I know that I would be quite pleased if people took something I played and thought it good enough to put it on a website (I would be flattered). I know I wouldn't be annoyed if you asked. Just make sure they know it isn't for profit and give them the option of leaving their name off it (or putting it on it) if they so choose.
No website posting without further permission. That definitely crosses a line. Share a copy with a close friend, without any money changing hands, that is probably OK, although even that should technically not done without prior permission. Now you know what questions to ask before you fire up the recorder next time!
Hey where's the "any musician who doesn't want to be bootlegged is a greedy minion of the record industry" crowd? Have we finally eradicated or converted them? I've got a great comment all prepared for the first bootleg apologist who dares to speak up. Come on!
There was a guy at a festival I worked at who was making some sort of documentary. The artists playing at the festival were pretty unanimously famous and pretty unanimously opposed to being taped. I mentioned to one of them I thought it was too bad that guy couldn't get his documentary made, and the fiddler I was talking to said:
"Well, think of it! What if you screw up, or trip and fall on your ass, then before you know it it's up on the internet for all to see, forever and ever!"
Point being his motivation for not wanting to be taped was avoiding potential embarassment, not greed.
Although, that wasn't very satisfying. Zina, I could tell your heart wasn't in it.
I suppose I just wanted to share that little story, is all.
You may be able to put it in a folder on your website that is password protected and only give the password to the handful of friends who you were going to give copies to anyway. ANd maybe put a hit counter on it that keeps track of who is gaining access. ColinF isn't really right about the internet being an open book - e-commerce wouldn't exist if it were. You just have to know what you're doing to control access. (No, I can't help you do it - I ask for help myself when I don't know what I'm doing.)
It's not the musicians you need to worry about. Nearly all of them wouldn't mind at all. It's the Greedy avericious record companies the musicians have sold their souls to that WILL prosecute you for breech of copyright. Even if copyright hasn't technically been breeched they WILL sue. Be very careful the musicans CANNOT give you permission to use it, they don't own the copyright to their own music (unless they are on their own label).
In an attempt to further muddy the waters, I'd like to present exhibit A - Na Connerys.
In effect their albums are self-bootlegs(!)
If I have a recording of them, made of outtakes straight from the studio where one of the albums was made (I don't know if they ever played any concerts), and sold it at cost or a slight loss (materials, plus my time spent mastering it, plus travel costs and entry to the Kevin Glackin concert where I'd be selling it in the foyer - lets see, maybe £25 each ), where does that leave me ethically.....
Hmm - I'm not so sure about all this. If they played in an informal session setting and knew they were being taped then what is the problem widening the session audience a wee bit? If the tunes are traditional then the issue of copyright doesn't enter into the discussion.
I'm all for open exchange of tunes, style, technique etc. Sure isn't that what the 'Net is for?
When a musican signs up with a record label that company OWNS the musican. He/She is not allowed to play any concert not approved by the company. ALL music played by the musician is OWNED by the company. So if you record a session in which that musician plays YOU are infringing the copyright owned by the record company. If you publish they can and WILL sue you. They have been sueing lots of people lately for doing much less than this. Be VERY careful these companies are not to be trusted.
Bernie, I would seriously suggest that any musician who signed a contract that says, in effect, what you said, has only themselves to blame.
I don't think a record company can tell a musician what and where NOT to play.
In the "60s' the Beatles played our local hall. A friend told me in advance they would not be playing any of the songs we had heard them sing on the radio, as they were copyright !
That's about as accurate as what you said.
Of course, to follow up your arguement. always ask an independant lawyer to read a contract before you sign it.
I know of a well known Irish fiddler who was secretly taped in session playing unusual tunes (different countries, different settings etc) preparing to record an album with various musicians. The taper who was a musician himself then learned the tunes, extremely half arsed and brought out his own album featuring the "stolen" tunes before the afore mentioned fiddler even got into the studio thereby ruining the recording session and a potential form of income. A particularly well known pro musician around these parts regulalry tapes sessions to grab tunes to teach at music camps etc making an income off other peoples hard work to source good and unusual tunes and settings. I am very leery of people taping sessions particularly when common courtesy is completely ignored. A simple "would you mind if..." usually does the job, or at least you think it would.
"I know of a well known Irish fiddler who was secretly taped in session playing unusual tunes (different countries, different settings etc) preparing to record an album with various musicians. The taper who was a musician himself then learned the tunes, extremely half arsed and brought out his own album featuring the "stolen" tunes before the afore mentioned fiddler even got into the studio thereby ruining the recording session and a potential form of income."
Who was the evil taper? - If this story is true there is no reason you shouldn't name and shame him.
Dang, Zina, I should have waited for Bernie's post.
Ah well. Anyway, Bernie, most of the trad musos I know are indie and not half stupid enough to sign their musical freedom away in the manner you described. That model pretty much only applies to pop stars and the winners of TV singing contests.
The ethics of session tapes and websites
The ethics of session tapes and websites
So the recent thread about the bootleg CD's prompted this.
Anyways, I have about 5 hours of session recordings of some rather well known professional players snagged at one of the week-long workshops recently. All of them were acquired with permission. I was considering starting up a website to store them and distribute to friends - but not to the general public. I would be losing money on the project, which would really be for my own entertainment benefit and those of friends. My fear is that somebody could get a hold of the tracks and try to sell them or "mass distribute" them...
So, is this a good idea or not?
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Can you just make copies and send it to your friends? That way you know exactly who gets a hold of it. As long as you have the musicians approval to share with your friends I think that it'd be ok to do that, but I don't think that you should post them on the internet because someone might choose to download and distribute them.
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by musicfan
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
I would say that the permission you got was to record for your own use. Anything more than that is out of order. If you want to use them on a website, you will need to get their permission all over again.
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by Backer
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
That's kinda where I am leaning with this too, on the permission issue. I don;t feel like harassing a bunch of musicians for something like this.
The real reason for a website would be. . .just a lot more convenient than other methods. But. The distribution issue is an unpleasant one.
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Wormdiet, I'm going to back backer. The vast majority of people who record sessions do it to learn tunes, for their own personal use, and it's highly probable that's what these well known players assumed you intended to do with them.
That said, I've sent off a couple tracks to Jack and Will to get the names of some tunes, but I didn't mention who was playing (although they guessed, the clever bastards), but it wasn't in the spirit of "hey look, everybody, manna from heaven! Unreleased recordings of famous musicians! Free for everybody!" It was more in the interest of learning the tunes (ie. personal use).
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Exactly, I wouldn't mind someone recording me to learn the tunes I was playing, but if they posted it on the internet and then I found that suddenly everyone had these songs I'd be pretty p*ssed.
Now, if they told you it would be ok to share with a few friends that's a different story. But, you need to share it only with those few friends. If you don't have that permission find a way to ask them.
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by musicfan
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
I would get permission. The internet's an open book, and you can't assume other people won't stumble upon your website. I know that I would be quite pleased if people took something I played and thought it good enough to put it on a website (I would be flattered). I know I wouldn't be annoyed if you asked. Just make sure they know it isn't for profit and give them the option of leaving their name off it (or putting it on it) if they so choose.
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by ColinF
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
No website posting without further permission. That definitely crosses a line. Share a copy with a close friend, without any money changing hands, that is probably OK, although even that should technically not done without prior permission. Now you know what questions to ask before you fire up the recorder next time!
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
I've often wondered what Kevin Crawford thinks of that CD/tape that's been making the rounds, the one from that session in Gort...
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Hey where's the "any musician who doesn't want to be bootlegged is a greedy minion of the record industry" crowd? Have we finally eradicated or converted them? I've got a great comment all prepared for the first bootleg apologist who dares to speak up. Come on!
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Okay, I'm dying of curiosity...ahem...Hey, any musician who doesn't want to be bootlegged is just a greedy minion of the record industry!!!!
On your mark, get set...GO!
# Posted on August 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Should we set you off? Cause I could make the comments, just to read your retort. . .
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by musicfan
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Thank you Zina, much obliged!
There was a guy at a festival I worked at who was making some sort of documentary. The artists playing at the festival were pretty unanimously famous and pretty unanimously opposed to being taped. I mentioned to one of them I thought it was too bad that guy couldn't get his documentary made, and the fiddler I was talking to said:
"Well, think of it! What if you screw up, or trip and fall on your ass, then before you know it it's up on the internet for all to see, forever and ever!"
Point being his motivation for not wanting to be taped was avoiding potential embarassment, not greed.
Although, that wasn't very satisfying. Zina, I could tell your heart wasn't in it.
I suppose I just wanted to share that little story, is all.
Damn, I'm bored.
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
You may be able to put it in a folder on your website that is password protected and only give the password to the handful of friends who you were going to give copies to anyway. ANd maybe put a hit counter on it that keeps track of who is gaining access. ColinF isn't really right about the internet being an open book - e-commerce wouldn't exist if it were. You just have to know what you're doing to control access. (No, I can't help you do it - I ask for help myself when I don't know what I'm doing.)
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
You could probably hire Jeremy to help you do it.
Hey, Kerri, this is the INTERNET. Read whatever you want into what I write, fer godsake, that's the way it's done, didn't you know?! *smirk*
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Well, I doubt anybody would be embarassed by the playing condition on these recordings, but for ethical reasons I am not going to do it.
Instead, I'll post recordings of myself, thereby ensuring that no one will pirate them ;)
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
It's not the musicians you need to worry about. Nearly all of them wouldn't mind at all. It's the Greedy avericious record companies the musicians have sold their souls to that WILL prosecute you for breech of copyright. Even if copyright hasn't technically been breeched they WILL sue. Be very careful the musicans CANNOT give you permission to use it, they don't own the copyright to their own music (unless they are on their own label).
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Bernie
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
In an attempt to further muddy the waters, I'd like to present exhibit A - Na Connerys.
), where does that leave me ethically.....
In effect their albums are self-bootlegs(!)
If I have a recording of them, made of outtakes straight from the studio where one of the albums was made (I don't know if they ever played any concerts), and sold it at cost or a slight loss (materials, plus my time spent mastering it, plus travel costs and entry to the Kevin Glackin concert where I'd be selling it in the foyer - lets see, maybe £25 each
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Ottery
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Hmm - I'm not so sure about all this. If they played in an informal session setting and knew they were being taped then what is the problem widening the session audience a wee bit? If the tunes are traditional then the issue of copyright doesn't enter into the discussion.
I'm all for open exchange of tunes, style, technique etc. Sure isn't that what the 'Net is for?
Publish and be damned!
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by breandan
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
When a musican signs up with a record label that company OWNS the musican. He/She is not allowed to play any concert not approved by the company. ALL music played by the musician is OWNED by the company. So if you record a session in which that musician plays YOU are infringing the copyright owned by the record company. If you publish they can and WILL sue you. They have been sueing lots of people lately for doing much less than this. Be VERY careful these companies are not to be trusted.
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Bernie
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Bernie, I would seriously suggest that any musician who signed a contract that says, in effect, what you said, has only themselves to blame.
I don't think a record company can tell a musician what and where NOT to play.
In the "60s' the Beatles played our local hall. A friend told me in advance they would not be playing any of the songs we had heard them sing on the radio, as they were copyright !
That's about as accurate as what you said.
Of course, to follow up your arguement. always ask an independant lawyer to read a contract before you sign it.
# Posted on August 6th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
I know of a well known Irish fiddler who was secretly taped in session playing unusual tunes (different countries, different settings etc) preparing to record an album with various musicians. The taper who was a musician himself then learned the tunes, extremely half arsed and brought out his own album featuring the "stolen" tunes before the afore mentioned fiddler even got into the studio thereby ruining the recording session and a potential form of income. A particularly well known pro musician around these parts regulalry tapes sessions to grab tunes to teach at music camps etc making an income off other peoples hard work to source good and unusual tunes and settings. I am very leery of people taping sessions particularly when common courtesy is completely ignored. A simple "would you mind if..." usually does the job, or at least you think it would.
# Posted on August 7th 2005 by Patkiwi
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
"I know of a well known Irish fiddler who was secretly taped in session playing unusual tunes (different countries, different settings etc) preparing to record an album with various musicians. The taper who was a musician himself then learned the tunes, extremely half arsed and brought out his own album featuring the "stolen" tunes before the afore mentioned fiddler even got into the studio thereby ruining the recording session and a potential form of income."
Who was the evil taper? - If this story is true there is no reason you shouldn't name and shame him.
# Posted on August 7th 2005 by Ottery
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Dang, Zina, I should have waited for Bernie's post.
Ah well. Anyway, Bernie, most of the trad musos I know are indie and not half stupid enough to sign their musical freedom away in the manner you described. That model pretty much only applies to pop stars and the winners of TV singing contests.
# Posted on August 7th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: The ethics of session tapes and websites
Heh. Yes, but by then I'd have died of unsatisfied curiousity. "Curiousity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought him back."
# Posted on August 8th 2005 by Zina Lee