Help me!! I am a flute player in Ontario and I need to know how people can learn things by ear. I can sight read sheet music as fast as anyone, but I can't understand how people can listen to music and then reproduce it. Does anyone have any tips to help me? The Celtic Festival in my area is drawing near and although a session CD has been published, no sheet music accompanies it this year, so I will be very lost at this years sessions if I don't learn how to learn by ear. Of course, I'm usually lost anyway, but not because I don't know the songs! Thanks to everyone who read this,
K
K, we've quite a bit of verbiage on this subject in past threads -- you might try doing a search on "aural" or "by ear" using the search function under the Discussions page here at The Session.
Also, I've got quite a bit of info on the subject on the webpage of the slow session that Dirk and I run -- http://www.slowsession.org/SCTLS .
... when you go to that Celtic Festival take a small and easy to use recording device with you - in between the lessons and back home listen to these tapes or minidiscs over and over - that surely helps to "learn by ear"....
K, the only way I know is to listen to several different ways of how a tune is played,
then pick which one you like the best, try playing along with it. If you can't do that then there
places on the web like here that you can get tunes. You can always ask if someone knows a
tune you can't find.-lilpiper87
I'm a beginner at learning by ear, too. The previous threads are worth reading through, as is Zina's slow session website, so be sure to do that. When you talk to people, be aware that many of the people who are best at learning by ear are not the best at teaching it -- they just do it; it's so natural to them now that it's like walking, and they don't remember ever learning how. The people who appear to pick up tunes by ear effortlessly have all spent years developing that skill, often starting in childhood, so I remind myself that this is a long-term quest. There's no quick fix. There's no way I could learn a whole CD of tunes by ear in a few weeks, starting today. (Maybe you can, but don't be too frustrated if you can't, YET. Consider "cheating" and looking up the sheet music on this site or others if you really need to learn a whole lot of tunes on a deadline.)
I recently attended a music camp (great fun!) where all the tunes were taught by ear. I discovered that it was much easier for me to learn from a live human than from recordings. If you can, find a patient friend to teach you a tune by breaking it down into small pieces, played slowly, so you can master a phrase (or piece of a phrase) at a time. It's much easier and more pleasant than constantly rewinding a tape. Do be sure to get the thing on tape too, though, to refresh your memory as needed. If you're like me, you'll get the tune down, and the next morning you won't be able to remember it. It takes me a few days of playing a tune every day to really get it memorized.
It takes lots of work, dedication and above all patience, but, even if it seems impossible now, you *can* and, in my personal opinion -should, learn how to learn by ear. I know this from personal experience.
Last October I was at Blazin Fiddles struggling to learn simple tunes by ear. These were really simple tunes, taught very slowly and carefully in the beginner class. I mean really simple and really slowly. And, I just couldn't do it, I was unable to learn one tune that entire week. Even attempting it was so painful and frustrating that I would have bet money there was no way I could ever learn a tune by ear.
Four weeks ago, at Gaelic Roots, I was learning two tunes a day, strictly by ear *and* enjoying it. These were complicated tunes, nothing simple about them, taught by Paddy Glackin (who freely admits that he has no patience at a fairly fast pace. Some days, I even learned a third tune from John McCusker. Although, I don't really count those because John is a fabulous teacher who makes it easy to learn a tune. Not sure what he does, but I'm convinced there is magic involved *grin*. And, I still remember all of those tunes, which, since there are days when people around me ask if I'm getting senile, is truly amazing. Don't get me wrong, I still can't hear a tune once through, and be able to play it - I suspect that is many years of work away. But, I can sit in a session, hear a tune once through and pick up a phrase or two. Sometimes, if they play it through enough times and it is not too complex a tune, I can pick up almost all of it.
Here are some suggestions:
First, realize that learning a tune by ear is possible and desirable. One of the benefits is an increased ability to actually *hear* the music. When you play from notes, you are focused on the ink on the page in front of you, thinking about the count of a note (i.e. quarter, sixteen, etc.), the various notations, did you play it *right*, etc. - very distracting. When you learn by ear, you are focused on the melody, the flow of the music, the rhythm, etc. - the soul of the tune. I find this not only helps with learning the tune, but also with remembering a tune and being able to put in ornamentations and so forth.
Next, carefully read through all the various threads on the session and Zina's slow session web page (the URL was in her earlier post). Great stuff, I got all my inspiration and help from those two sources (for me it helps to print it out and have it around to refer to while practicing).
Then, work at it, constantly. Follow the suggestions and
instructions. In addition, it is helpful to make the decision to not learn or play any tunes from sheet music for a while (this means that you can't focused on learning tons of tunes immediately). You need someone to teach you some tunes, instructional type recordings, or a
way to slow down some recordings of tunes where there is one dominant instrument. I used some of Kevin Burke's lowest level tapes and videos. They come with sheet music but I immediately put it out of sight so that I wouldn't be tempted (ok, there were times at the
begining where I felt like I should be in a 12 step program, the temptation to pull out the music was strong, just a few notes was all, I was sure I could stop after just a few notes *snicker*, scotch helped). It would have been better if he would have gone a little bit slower, but you can rewind over and over, and, with the videos, you get the benefit of watching his bowing (learn the tune well first). Listen for patterns in the tunes, not just the call/answer thing but stuff like repeated phrases and the directions of the notes, sometimes just being able to figure out whether a note is higher or lower than the previous one will be all you need. Humming the tune, listening over and over, etc. - all those things are talked about in previous threads, so I won't say anymore.
The first few months are difficult, but you'll find that it gets easier and easier. Now I prefer to learn tunes by ear, it is more fun than playing from sheet music, which I only use if after working at a tune there are still a few notes I can't figure out. Sorry about the essay, hope it provides something useful.
I just noticed that I put in the WRONG URL. Guess I need more sleep still. Sorry about that... it's actually http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS, not slowSESSION! :(
Listen to the CD day and night, even when you're not paying attention. I had the same challenge at Swannanoah last week and found that by the end of the week I was able to pick up tunes much more quickly.I learned 6 tunes in one week learning by ear ( with instructors breaking down the phrases)- which I would never been able to do using music And it seems that when I learn tunes by ear I have learned them more thoroughly than by using music. I came home determined to throw out my music- but then decided I wanted to practice learning tunes both ways. Jennifer
By the way, I was told a couple of weeks ago that if you really wanted to learn a tune from the music, a good thing to do is to learn it from the end. Learn the last measure first, then the next to last, etc. According to my source, this will help you retain the music and also be able to start from anywhere in the tune (a common problem with learning a tune from the dots is being unable to jump into the tune at any point).
This is good advice, not just for the reason stated. The last phrase of a tune can be pretty stereotyped, so it can easier to pick up than the first bit. Of course, once you have the last phrase, it's easier to hear how the next one flows into it.
I'll admit that I'm not great at picking tunes off records, but one things that's helped me a lot is to listen to the tunes I want to learn over and over again before I try to learn them. If you're thoroughly sick of the tune, it's a good bet you're ready to start trying to learn it.
The other thing is to remember that you don't need to learn the whole tune at a go - try to get one piece of it at a time. Identify one note, at the end or somewhere in the middle, and work from there to get the phrase that note fits into. Often the highest note or a note that's leaned on is easiest to grab hold of.
Probably the hardest way to learn is the one I tried at first, which was to start at the beginning and try to learn it from the start.
I guess I'm lucky in that I've never had to work at learning things by ear. I was always the other way - when I was learning piano and supposed to be reading the sheet music, I would ask my teacher to play it once to show the proper 'expression' and then pretend to read the sheet music while playing what I could by ear. I should be a rather good music reader (and with one melody line, i guess I'm decent) but reading four notes at a time - well, I'm rather crap at it. (and my poor piano teacher... at least I didn't forge positive progress notes in her piano book like one of my friends used to do as a kid)
Anyway, I never thought there was any skill to learning by ear - I just thought I was sort of cheating a bit, because it was sooo much easier. I'm always a bit jealous of people who really want to read music. (hmmm... myself, scotch and sheet music would be a rather ugly combination...)
Still, what I can say about learning tunes - the number one thing I think one has to realise is that you need to be able to hum the tune first. If you can hum it then playing it is a simply secondary. I mean really hum it... not sort of fake along with a recording. So, while you listen to this CD hum the tunes. If you can hum them without the recording then the job is done.
Hope this helps a bit (and maybe someone can explain the alure of sheet music to me)....
See now, Searai, we always want what we don't have...I have straight black hair, and always wanted curly blonde hair as a kid. I don't remember being NOT able to read music, myself.
I apparently started learning to read music around age four (I learned to read music right alongside learning to read, period). Even though I can now understand that there are people who have a hard time reading it, it still in some ways mystifies me that a person will try to hold a whole note to only a quarter note's time, when there it is, right in front of them, all written out. Heh.
Down at the bottom of the SCTLS website "learning by ear" page is an explanation by Jesse Langen of the difference between kinesthetic learning and true aural learning. It's an important thing to keep in mind. If you find yourself being unable to start in the middle of a phrase or anywhere but the beginning of the tune, it's probable that you learned that tune kinesthetically. There's nothing very wrong with that, but you don't want to stay there.
Zina...
just checked out that site. So I see the 'being able to sing a tune' bit is covered there already. The aural/kinesthetic bit is interesting as well.
A long time ago, on a planet far, far away, I read some literature about teaching methods (as applied to teaching the martial arts, but the principles should be the same) that talked about how we learn. The general idea was that there are three core ways that people learn: visually (they see it and remember it), kinesthetically (they do it and remember it), and aurally (they hear it and remember it). Most people tend to be naturally strong in one of these, and weak in the other two (although, of course, some people are strong in all - those are the ones we love to hate *snicker*). The point of the paper was that, as a teacher, it is important to cover all three methods of learning - in other words, you talk about how to do a move, you show how to do a move, and you have the student do the move. Combining methods (for example, you might talk the student through the move as they do it) was very good thing to do. The paper also claimed that, with practice, a person can improve their weaker skills, so the teacher should encourage the students to use all methods, and not depend on their naturally strong skill(s).
We are both the teacher and the student (very zen - guess we snatch the pepple from our own hand, hehehe) so we should encourage ourselves to work on our weaker skills.
As far as combining the aural and kinesthetic methods - humming while playing the tune often helps me work through a difficult section; figuring out the notes by ear and writing the tune out on sheet paper seems to help 'set' it.
Hey Zina, I've always wanted straight black hair - very exotic, curly blonde hair is *so* boring - ya wanna trade?
It's a skill you need to work on, like anything else with music. Take a tune that you know by heart but can't yet play. Try to learn the tune a bar at a time & write it down as you go. By doing this you free your mind up to concentrate on listening rather than remembering what you've just figured out. Go bar by bar as you learn it til you have the whole thing. Then try to not use the sheetmusic you've written & rely on your memory. I find I retain tunes I've learned by ear much better than ones I've learned from dots. You also get the benifit of picking up on those subtleties that can't be conveyed on paper. It's a pain in the neck at first but what isn't? good luck
One important thing is to be able to play melodies on your instrument without looking at the dots. For example, play "Happy Birthday To You" in G, then do it again in C. With some practice, you should be able to "hear" a melody in your head and do it in the instrument at once or in your second try. You won't be able to play "by ear" until you develop this, but it's not particularly hard. You develop it by having fun with your instrument.
As far as Irish Traditional Music is concerned, your ability to pick up tunes will grow exponentially as you learn... tunes. The thing is to develop a sensitivity to the way the melodies go. There are a lot of stock phrases that happen all the time; the melodies are mostly made up of combinations of the same short phrase fragments. So, as you learn tunes, you will learn the fragments and how they combine, and it will be easier to pick up new tunes. It will also be easier to make up new tunes by inadvertently mixing up the ones you already know.
I don't actually find that to be a "problem," myself. One of the things that fascinates me about traditional music is how you can find such endless variation in so few notes and keys.
I am sure Michael doesn't MEAN to be pejorative Glauber, because then he would become a 'diddly dabbler'. He just wants us to know that he plays something else other than ITM that he finds more rewarding, and that's OK too (isn't it??)
Diddly daddly diddly damdidi diddly diddly dadl di dadl di
... Jill, are you sure, Michael plays something else other than ITM that he finds more rewarding? He told us, what he plays and he calls it diddly music and he told us as well this is an onomatopoetic expression ... and to me it fits (and I like it),
I play diddly music 'cause I love it to bits, warts and all. I'm glad it's not Bethoven 'cause I wouldn't be able to play it.
I would be fooling myself to say that I'd like to play some harder forms of music because, if I did, I'd take the bother to learn it.
The reason I love diddly music is because it's easy, and we all know that great music doesn't have to be difficult.
My dictionary is getting dog eared! I hope you are a good sport, Michael and I like the 'onomatopoetic' idea Volka. You are right that learning by ear (getting back to the thread) should be fun, and the music is 'diddly daddly' Michael and Volka. Lilting has everything to do with playing by ear. Warmed by a couple of Bailey's and a few nice toons I just want to quote a famous Aussie boxer: "I luv yous all".
Cheers from a merry diddly dabbler.
Golly, how did you guys get in before me? I posted and you both appeared. Clearly you are a terrific sport Michael, wish we could all have some toons together. That is shots, not bottles, by the way. Cheers
K, I thought you might like to know about a recording that we use for stepdancing but that would be an excellent CD for a beginning aural learner to learn off of. Billy McComiskey, Brendan Mulvihill, and Zan McLeod recorded *One More Time* for the Culkin School of Dance, and it has very common session standards on it played at varying speeds (as low as 70, in some cases, and no higher than 113 on the reels and 120 for the jjigs).
How often can you play along with these three exellent players on tunes like Silver Spear, Mss McLeod's, Wise Maid, Gallagher's Frolics, Boys of Balisadare, Merrily Kiss the Quaker, Boys of Blue Hill, etc., at speeds slow enough for a beginner? I'll do a full track listing under the recordings section when I get done with this post.
I was really jazzed to find this CD -- I recommend it to everybody, dancers and beginning players alike. At last, a CD for Irish stepdancers with really good ITM on it. That may not sound all that unusual, but you'd be surprised...
OK, i'll bite... learning by ear is an indispensible skill for a musician, but there isn't any reason to be afraid of or angry at sheet music. It's the same as saying that "stories have always been transmitted aurally, and for this reason i detest books!". If it wasn't for writing, most of the old stories would have been lost. If it wasn't for sheet music, most of the old tchunes would have been lost too. Persons and governments in Ireland and elsewhere put a lot of effort on interviewing traditional musicians and writing down their melodies, and so we still play those melodies today.
Sheet music is a notation system that, once we understand its limitations, works extremely well to preserve musical ideas, and it's universal. There's no need for anyone to feel embarassed for knowing the "dots" or "ABC" (which is really just a system for representing the "dots" through computer symbols).
Yes, the dots are not the music (and this applies just as well to Bach as to ITM). You have to know the details of the style and ornamentation before you can make music from the dots. The dots are like the finger pointing to the moon, in that well known zen koan. Still, we don't cut fingers (else we would all end up playing the harmonica). http://www.geocities.com/nozendo/Finger/finger.html
In Chicago, When Chief O'Neil enlisted the help of Sergent O'Niel to write down the music of the local musicians, he didn't think the fact that the Sergent was classicaly trained and could not play diddly music mattered.
The result was, a thousand and one fiddle tunes almost destroyed.
Twas only the dilligence of the people still learning them aurally that saved them.
Sarcastic response 1: I assume that this is why hundreds if not thousands of people look to the O'Neil books as an authoritative source on how tunes were played at that time.
Sarcastic response 2: Michael should be glad that he also has a mission in life!
Sarcastic response 3: In fact, i'm only interested in flute tunes, and those weren't destroyed.
Non-sarcastic response: Michael, i don't think you really know what you're writing about. You probably read it somewhere, or maybe you just wanted to post another little snide remark.
I remain unconvinced. I'm grateful not only to O'Neil, but to all people, from there to Zina, who have helped preserve tunes in writing. I still think that reading and writing music (dots or ABC) is an important skill that should be learned.
I also think that you don't really know a tune until you can play it by heart. And learning by ear is an essential skill in order to play traditional music.
I don't understand the phobea against sheet music. I've been playing for over 20 years and am just now learning to read dot's. It has become a great tool for me to learn new tunes. Once I get the basics down, I seldom look at it again. Most of what I learn is still by ear, but being able to read a bit now has been a great help.
One more thing! I was at a session a couple of weeks ago and a girl showed up who was a classicly trained violinest. She could look at a piece of music covered with dot's having never seen it before and play it like she'd played it all her life.
She has a desire to learn ITM and decided to jump into the middle of it by joining our monthly Celtic Gathering. The poor girl as good as she was could not play a thing because it was not written down. Seeing her delima I pulled out a Portland Collection book and a couple of others and when we came to a tune I knew was in there I told her where to find it. Granted, she played along with us, not hitting the same grace notes and colorfull additions, but she was able to participate. I looked at her once and she had tears in her eyes. I asked her what was wrong and she said that she could not feel the music the way we could. Man that got me!
My point though is, had the sheet music not been there, she would have been left out in the cold. Because the sheet music was there, she has begun a journey of learning ITM. Her goal is to get away from music, but it is a starting point for her.
If someone would have jumped up and said, "Hey! you can't use music! It's not traditional!" She would have been destroyed, and we would have lost a player who is very capable of learning and joining in without sheet music in the future.
Zina is right! Sheet music is a tool. Good tools should not be frowned upon.
And what about the person who is trying to do it aurally, the traditional way, Flyinfiddler? Are you going to slow down and teach him/her the tune? No? How are you going to include them? Is what you did supporting the tradition, or supporting the classicalisation of it? Is the person playing from sheetmusic actually playing IRISH music? Or a classicalised diddly version that doesn't have any true meaning?
Many is the time I've heard the 'fake' stuff, and it is just that - F A K E (it makes me curl up inside). You can't get authenticity out of dots (handy shortcut tool as the dots on a page are - and who doesn't use them from time to time). It is well recognised that you can't really write Irish music down the way its played, so what is written down is not how its played (and there are lots of different ways of being right), and its the ornaments and what you do with what classically trained musicians think of as very simple dance music that is what makes it what it is.
I am sorry for your violinist that she discovered it the way she did. There is something to be said for going along just to listen and learn first. Think on how a traditional fiddler might feel if he/she was presented with a piece of sheetmusic that required heaps of playing anywhere up to fifth position (just an example). Would the classical violinist be as accommodating (I somehow doubt it)? I think it might be a common misconception in classical circles that Irish music is a doddle - with all their training they think they can go along to any session and blow the common socks off the purists.
Zina is so right, its what goes on behind the dots that makes it Irish. If it ain't got that zing it ain't Irish traditional music.
And Michael, in another thread is also right: there is a problem with people who can't hear the difference. If they are such radical musicians that they think they can get up and do it straight off, perhaps they would be better off playing something else! Any old dance music that doesn't have that wonderfully elusive extra dimension. Yueudi Menuin admitted to it. He could play folk music but not Irish. And that says it all.
Cheers
Hmmm. Well, I think everyone has their own reasons for loving the music, and everyone has their own ways of coming to the music, and that they're all just fine -- some are perhaps more "authentic", but if you take that to its logical extreme, the only people who would be allowed to play the music would be the actual Irish. As a Chinese American, I'd be one of the first to have to go, and I'd definitely fight that.
When I first started, I had no one to teach me, and no one around to show me how important the feel was -- I didn't even own any recordings of anything but feis music. I started from written music, because I didn't know any better, one, and, two, it was the only way I had to learn. I didn't even know enough to know that it was an aural tradition, or that there WAS a difference in feel. Yet I think that now I perhaps contribute a little more than I detract to the tradition. So I'm glad no one took away my sheet music from me at the time, and that the few players I knew were encouraging and didn't shun me because of it. I'm glad, Wayne, that your session was welcoming to your classical gal in a way that she could understand, and hope that someday she'll be a valuable contributor to your session. Sounds like she has a fine ear if she could already hear a difference in feel.
A session allows what a session allows, depending on the makeup of contributors. I don't have any real problem with a session that wants to allow sheet music (although we don't allow it at ours -- because that's what our session is about...learning to learn aurally). I probably wouldn't spend much time at that sort of a session, admittedly, but it's no skin off my teeth if a group of people want to do what they want to do at their own session.
There's all kinds of sessions. Some are more inclusive or exclusive than others. Some don't care about the music so much as the crack (and it can be argued that that is the most authentic kind of Irish session there is). Some are completely closed sessions for members of a certain family or group only. You can always find or start a session if you don't care for your local. I think that's the way it should be.
Ha ha, It's so easy to wind you guys up. I knew slagging the Cheif off would do it.
This discussion is such fun, I've just taken the time to go back and read the lot from the start (phew) and it's amazing that, when it comes down to it, there is no dissagreement at all.
I love all this "No, the point I was making was..." etc. It really focuses the mind on why the hell we do this diddly thing in the first place.
I like the story of the classical girl. But it seems a shame that we pity her. It sounded to me that she was coming at it from the right angle: she knew she couldn't do it, (yet).
I really don't think it matters how you come to diddly music, whether you read it first in a book, were born into it or, as I did, just got totally bold over by The Bothy Band in my early teens. And it certainly doesn't matter if your Irish or not. That's the one that really gets my goat. It's like that "havn't black people got great rythm" thing. AAAAARRGGHH
What matters is that you use your ears (Like Jimi Hendrix did)
and that's the whole point about "learning by ear"
D'you mean, like, "I'm black and I'm prrrroud!", Michael? *grin* (I really need to see The Commitments again.) I'd also agree that there's not a whole lot of actual disagreement going on. I think we're all pretty much agreed on the big stuff. Details, now, it's details that start the wars. So it's always good to remember we're still connected by the big stuff.
Though it's an interesting point -- at most sessions, they're not set up for beginners. You'd normally never think of slowing down and teaching someone who doesn't know how to learn by ear how to do it in the middle of a normal session.
I still remember, before being taught that listening was just as valuable as playing, being anxious to play but unable to either keep up or not knowing the tunes. (In fact, remembering that is part of how I can be patient -- not my usual state -- at our tune learning session.) Fair play and more to you, Wayne, for remembering it too. I too think that Classical Girl has no need of our pity, what with folks like you to look after her. Are you going to help her to get the feel outside the session?
It's important to say, Michael, that nobody here cares that much about "the Chief". I can't speak for the others, but the only reason i stuck my nose out was because i do believe that reading and writing music is a valuable skill to have, even for folk musicians. As Zina said, it's a good tool. The reason i jumped in into what was clearly a troll, is because it's not good for the people who are new and trying to learn, to only hear rants against "the dots". They should be allowed use all the tools in their reach to learn the music.
Whatever you say about "The Chief", Matt Molloy or anyone else has very little consequence. Over the years on the Internet i learned to tune out this kind of material. But if you offend real people that are part of the group and they leave, that's another thing alltogether, and may threaten the existence of the group.
Even though it may be fun to prod people and see they blow up, i would ask you to please find less harmful ways to contribute.
Actually there are a few of us who are going to try to help her. I think she'll catch on pretty quick. Her desire is to get away from the paper and play by ear.
That night had I not known that she was one of them thar high fallutin music readers that played with orchestras and such I would have never mentioned I had dot's with me.
We are going to try to start a slow session for her and others who are wanting to learn. (Not planning on using sheet music)
Oh, I dunno, Michael. Sometimes a rant is just what you need to stir you out of self-complacency. Everybody and just about everything has a place in the macro-cosm. I think as we get to know you, we'll start having a sense for when you're fooling about and when you're actually meaning to be mean. *grin*
Anyway, Michael, have a good holiday, and we'll see you when you get back!
Wayne, how fun! A slow session! Let me know if I can help you in any way, and contact Mike Duffy at http://www.slowplayers.org and join up with us -- good way to get a website for free.
It was certainly not my intention to be rude Flyingfiddler. You were being highly inclusive of the violinist in your session - and I should have started my post saying that. It was a very helpful act. But, I recon there should be NOONE who comes in good faith "left out in the cold" in an ITM session (unless, perhaps, if they are oing doing players who, unasking, sit down and play dirgey French waltzes in an ITM session in Scotland).
So why is a classically trained violinist anymore deserving of inclusion than anyone else? You shouldn't have to have classical training to become "very capable of learning and joining in".
I used to hear that classical FAKE stuff every year in the last night of "The Proms" in the Albert Hall - Drowsie Maggi, Irishwasherwoman etc sheetread at a zillion miles an hour (The annual Irish bracket) - I found it objectionable. It doesn't have anything to do with Irishness.
There is Zina, a Chinese American, committed and doing much more than her bit for ITM and step dancing. There is Gauber, from Brazil, Volka from Germany, Michael in Scotland. I'm fourth generation Aussie. It is wonderful we can all participate in the tradition and this website, and I for one luv it.
What I am trying to say (probably very inadequately as usual) is, that if people play ITM, they should be playing with a commitment to ITM. If the classical idea of the music is allowed to dominate, however, ITM is turned into something less than it should be. Very sad.
..... and everything is fine. the war on the details - gone ... I was watching this thread during the late afternoon and when Michael came up with his Ha Ha it is so easy to wind you guys up I lost my english: du bist
Ooooo, a new toy, Volker...isn't it fun how everything just zips into your computer, and it's even better because it doesn't matter how long you stay on?
Learning by ear
Learning by ear
Help me!! I am a flute player in Ontario and I need to know how people can learn things by ear. I can sight read sheet music as fast as anyone, but I can't understand how people can listen to music and then reproduce it. Does anyone have any tips to help me? The Celtic Festival in my area is drawing near and although a session CD has been published, no sheet music accompanies it this year, so I will be very lost at this years sessions if I don't learn how to learn by ear. Of course, I'm usually lost anyway, but not because I don't know the songs! Thanks to everyone who read this,
K
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by KDJ
Re: Learning by ear
K, we've quite a bit of verbiage on this subject in past threads -- you might try doing a search on "aural" or "by ear" using the search function under the Discussions page here at The Session.
Also, I've got quite a bit of info on the subject on the webpage of the slow session that Dirk and I run -- http://www.slowsession.org/SCTLS .
Remember to have fun!
Zina
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
... when you go to that Celtic Festival take a small and easy to use recording device with you - in between the lessons and back home listen to these tapes or minidiscs over and over - that surely helps to "learn by ear"....
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by crannog
Re: Learning by ear
K, the only way I know is to listen to several different ways of how a tune is played,
then pick which one you like the best, try playing along with it. If you can't do that then there
places on the web like here that you can get tunes. You can always ask if someone knows a
tune you can't find.-lilpiper87
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by lilpiper87
Re: Learning by ear
Hi K,
I'm a beginner at learning by ear, too. The previous threads are worth reading through, as is Zina's slow session website, so be sure to do that. When you talk to people, be aware that many of the people who are best at learning by ear are not the best at teaching it -- they just do it; it's so natural to them now that it's like walking, and they don't remember ever learning how. The people who appear to pick up tunes by ear effortlessly have all spent years developing that skill, often starting in childhood, so I remind myself that this is a long-term quest. There's no quick fix. There's no way I could learn a whole CD of tunes by ear in a few weeks, starting today. (Maybe you can, but don't be too frustrated if you can't, YET. Consider "cheating" and looking up the sheet music on this site or others if you really need to learn a whole lot of tunes on a deadline.)
I recently attended a music camp (great fun!) where all the tunes were taught by ear. I discovered that it was much easier for me to learn from a live human than from recordings. If you can, find a patient friend to teach you a tune by breaking it down into small pieces, played slowly, so you can master a phrase (or piece of a phrase) at a time. It's much easier and more pleasant than constantly rewinding a tape. Do be sure to get the thing on tape too, though, to refresh your memory as needed. If you're like me, you'll get the tune down, and the next morning you won't be able to remember it. It takes me a few days of playing a tune every day to really get it memorized.
Good luck!
Sarah
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by x
Re: Learning by ear
be patient with yourself -- the more you stress over whether you can learn by ear, the more trouble you'll likely have.
if you'd asked me a year ago whether i could learn a tune by ear, i would have laughed ... now that's the main way i learn them.
sarah
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by sarahc
Re: Learning by ear
It takes lots of work, dedication and above all patience, but, even if it seems impossible now, you *can* and, in my personal opinion -should, learn how to learn by ear. I know this from personal experience.
at a fairly fast pace. Some days, I even learned a third tune from John McCusker. Although, I don't really count those because John is a fabulous teacher who makes it easy to learn a tune. Not sure what he does, but I'm convinced there is magic involved *grin*. And, I still remember all of those tunes, which, since there are days when people around me ask if I'm getting senile, is truly amazing. Don't get me wrong, I still can't hear a tune once through, and be able to play it - I suspect that is many years of work away. But, I can sit in a session, hear a tune once through and pick up a phrase or two. Sometimes, if they play it through enough times and it is not too complex a tune, I can pick up almost all of it.
Last October I was at Blazin Fiddles struggling to learn simple tunes by ear. These were really simple tunes, taught very slowly and carefully in the beginner class. I mean really simple and really slowly. And, I just couldn't do it, I was unable to learn one tune that entire week. Even attempting it was so painful and frustrating that I would have bet money there was no way I could ever learn a tune by ear.
Four weeks ago, at Gaelic Roots, I was learning two tunes a day, strictly by ear *and* enjoying it. These were complicated tunes, nothing simple about them, taught by Paddy Glackin (who freely admits that he has no patience
Here are some suggestions:
First, realize that learning a tune by ear is possible and desirable. One of the benefits is an increased ability to actually *hear* the music. When you play from notes, you are focused on the ink on the page in front of you, thinking about the count of a note (i.e. quarter, sixteen, etc.), the various notations, did you play it *right*, etc. - very distracting. When you learn by ear, you are focused on the melody, the flow of the music, the rhythm, etc. - the soul of the tune. I find this not only helps with learning the tune, but also with remembering a tune and being able to put in ornamentations and so forth.
Next, carefully read through all the various threads on the session and Zina's slow session web page (the URL was in her earlier post). Great stuff, I got all my inspiration and help from those two sources (for me it helps to print it out and have it around to refer to while practicing).
Then, work at it, constantly. Follow the suggestions and
instructions. In addition, it is helpful to make the decision to not learn or play any tunes from sheet music for a while (this means that you can't focused on learning tons of tunes immediately). You need someone to teach you some tunes, instructional type recordings, or a
way to slow down some recordings of tunes where there is one dominant instrument. I used some of Kevin Burke's lowest level tapes and videos. They come with sheet music but I immediately put it out of sight so that I wouldn't be tempted (ok, there were times at the
begining where I felt like I should be in a 12 step program, the temptation to pull out the music was strong, just a few notes was all, I was sure I could stop after just a few notes *snicker*, scotch helped). It would have been better if he would have gone a little bit slower, but you can rewind over and over, and, with the videos, you get the benefit of watching his bowing (learn the tune well first). Listen for patterns in the tunes, not just the call/answer thing but stuff like repeated phrases and the directions of the notes, sometimes just being able to figure out whether a note is higher or lower than the previous one will be all you need. Humming the tune, listening over and over, etc. - all those things are talked about in previous threads, so I won't say anymore.
The first few months are difficult, but you'll find that it gets easier and easier. Now I prefer to learn tunes by ear, it is more fun than playing from sheet music, which I only use if after working at a tune there are still a few notes I can't figure out. Sorry about the essay, hope it provides something useful.
Good luck!
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Learning by ear
*giggling helplessly* "scotch helped"?!? hehehe...Sos, you crack me up...
zls
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Oooops
I just noticed that I put in the WRONG URL. Guess I need more sleep still. Sorry about that... it's actually http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS, not slowSESSION! :(
Zina
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
This reminds me of when some journalist asked Jimi Hendrix,
"Why do you play your guitar with your teeth?"
"I don't," says Jimi, "Iplay with my ears."
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
Listen to the CD day and night, even when you're not paying attention. I had the same challenge at Swannanoah last week and found that by the end of the week I was able to pick up tunes much more quickly.I learned 6 tunes in one week learning by ear ( with instructors breaking down the phrases)- which I would never been able to do using music And it seems that when I learn tunes by ear I have learned them more thoroughly than by using music. I came home determined to throw out my music- but then decided I wanted to practice learning tunes both ways. Jennifer
# Posted on July 17th 2002 by Jenthur
Re: Learning by ear
It's like anything, practice
# Posted on July 18th 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
By the way, I was told a couple of weeks ago that if you really wanted to learn a tune from the music, a good thing to do is to learn it from the end. Learn the last measure first, then the next to last, etc. According to my source, this will help you retain the music and also be able to start from anywhere in the tune (a common problem with learning a tune from the dots is being unable to jump into the tune at any point).
# Posted on July 18th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Learning by ear
re: starting from the end
This is good advice, not just for the reason stated. The last phrase of a tune can be pretty stereotyped, so it can easier to pick up than the first bit. Of course, once you have the last phrase, it's easier to hear how the next one flows into it.
I'll admit that I'm not great at picking tunes off records, but one things that's helped me a lot is to listen to the tunes I want to learn over and over again before I try to learn them. If you're thoroughly sick of the tune, it's a good bet you're ready to start trying to learn it.
The other thing is to remember that you don't need to learn the whole tune at a go - try to get one piece of it at a time. Identify one note, at the end or somewhere in the middle, and work from there to get the phrase that note fits into. Often the highest note or a note that's leaned on is easiest to grab hold of.
Probably the hardest way to learn is the one I tried at first, which was to start at the beginning and try to learn it from the start.
# Posted on July 18th 2002 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning by ear
I guess I'm lucky in that I've never had to work at learning things by ear. I was always the other way - when I was learning piano and supposed to be reading the sheet music, I would ask my teacher to play it once to show the proper 'expression' and then pretend to read the sheet music while playing what I could by ear. I should be a rather good music reader (and with one melody line, i guess I'm decent) but reading four notes at a time - well, I'm rather crap at it. (and my poor piano teacher... at least I didn't forge positive progress notes in her piano book like one of my friends used to do as a kid)
Anyway, I never thought there was any skill to learning by ear - I just thought I was sort of cheating a bit, because it was sooo much easier. I'm always a bit jealous of people who really want to read music. (hmmm... myself, scotch and sheet music would be a rather ugly combination...)
Still, what I can say about learning tunes - the number one thing I think one has to realise is that you need to be able to hum the tune first. If you can hum it then playing it is a simply secondary. I mean really hum it... not sort of fake along with a recording. So, while you listen to this CD hum the tunes. If you can hum them without the recording then the job is done.
Hope this helps a bit (and maybe someone can explain the alure of sheet music to me)....
seara
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by searai
Re: Learning by ear
See now, Searai, we always want what we don't have...I have straight black hair, and always wanted curly blonde hair as a kid.
I don't remember being NOT able to read music, myself.
I apparently started learning to read music around age four (I learned to read music right alongside learning to read, period). Even though I can now understand that there are people who have a hard time reading it, it still in some ways mystifies me that a person will try to hold a whole note to only a quarter note's time, when there it is, right in front of them, all written out. Heh.
Down at the bottom of the SCTLS website "learning by ear" page is an explanation by Jesse Langen of the difference between kinesthetic learning and true aural learning. It's an important thing to keep in mind. If you find yourself being unable to start in the middle of a phrase or anywhere but the beginning of the tune, it's probable that you learned that tune kinesthetically. There's nothing very wrong with that, but you don't want to stay there.
Zina
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
You just listen and listen and listen and relate the notes in your ears (and head) to the ones under your fingers. One day it just happens.
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by JeffK627
Re: Learning by ear
Zina...
just checked out that site. So I see the 'being able to sing a tune' bit is covered there already. The aural/kinesthetic bit is interesting as well.
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by searai
Methods of learning
A long time ago, on a planet far, far away, I read some literature about teaching methods (as applied to teaching the martial arts, but the principles should be the same) that talked about how we learn. The general idea was that there are three core ways that people learn: visually (they see it and remember it), kinesthetically (they do it and remember it), and aurally (they hear it and remember it). Most people tend to be naturally strong in one of these, and weak in the other two (although, of course, some people are strong in all - those are the ones we love to hate *snicker*). The point of the paper was that, as a teacher, it is important to cover all three methods of learning - in other words, you talk about how to do a move, you show how to do a move, and you have the student do the move. Combining methods (for example, you might talk the student through the move as they do it) was very good thing to do. The paper also claimed that, with practice, a person can improve their weaker skills, so the teacher should encourage the students to use all methods, and not depend on their naturally strong skill(s).
We are both the teacher and the student (very zen - guess we snatch the pepple from our own hand, hehehe) so we should encourage ourselves to work on our weaker skills.
As far as combining the aural and kinesthetic methods - humming while playing the tune often helps me work through a difficult section; figuring out the notes by ear and writing the tune out on sheet paper seems to help 'set' it.
Hey Zina, I've always wanted straight black hair - very exotic, curly blonde hair is *so* boring - ya wanna trade?
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Learning by ear
It's a skill you need to work on, like anything else with music. Take a tune that you know by heart but can't yet play. Try to learn the tune a bar at a time & write it down as you go. By doing this you free your mind up to concentrate on listening rather than remembering what you've just figured out. Go bar by bar as you learn it til you have the whole thing. Then try to not use the sheetmusic you've written & rely on your memory. I find I retain tunes I've learned by ear much better than ones I've learned from dots. You also get the benifit of picking up on those subtleties that can't be conveyed on paper. It's a pain in the neck at first but what isn't? good luck
# Posted on July 19th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Learning by ear
One important thing is to be able to play melodies on your instrument without looking at the dots. For example, play "Happy Birthday To You" in G, then do it again in C. With some practice, you should be able to "hear" a melody in your head and do it in the instrument at once or in your second try. You won't be able to play "by ear" until you develop this, but it's not particularly hard. You develop it by having fun with your instrument.
As far as Irish Traditional Music is concerned, your ability to pick up tunes will grow exponentially as you learn... tunes. The thing is to develop a sensitivity to the way the melodies go. There are a lot of stock phrases that happen all the time; the melodies are mostly made up of combinations of the same short phrase fragments. So, as you learn tunes, you will learn the fragments and how they combine, and it will be easier to pick up new tunes. It will also be easier to make up new tunes by inadvertently mixing up the ones you already know.
# Posted on July 20th 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
That's the problem with diddly music. The stock phrases that happen all the time
# Posted on July 21st 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
I don't actually find that to be a "problem," myself. One of the things that fascinates me about traditional music is how you can find such endless variation in so few notes and keys.
Zina
# Posted on July 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
I don't think it's a problem either, it's just the way it is.
# Posted on July 21st 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
That's the other problem with diddly music,
people who can't see the first problem
# Posted on July 21st 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
Michael, tell us exactly why you bother to post here? And why you bother to play this stuff?
zls
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
Yes, we just like this stuff, and it doesn't matter that it ain't Bethoven.
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
Ol'Ludwig didn't write much good flute stuff anyway.
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by glauber
Diddly
Honestly, i'm not sure what's "diddly music". Is this a generic term for Irish/Scottish/Bluegrass/etc? Is it a pejorative term? Sounds that way.
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
I am sure Michael doesn't MEAN to be pejorative Glauber, because then he would become a 'diddly dabbler'. He just wants us to know that he plays something else other than ITM that he finds more rewarding, and that's OK too (isn't it??)
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by Jill
Re: Learning by ear
LOL -- Jill, a DIDDLY DABBLER? heeheeheehee....
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Diddly daddly diddly damdidi diddly diddly dadl di dadl di
... Jill, are you sure, Michael plays something else other than ITM that he finds more rewarding? He told us, what he plays and he calls it diddly music and he told us as well this is an onomatopoetic expression ... and to me it fits (and I like it),
# Posted on July 22nd 2002 by crannog
Re: Learning by ear
I play diddly music 'cause I love it to bits, warts and all. I'm glad it's not Bethoven 'cause I wouldn't be able to play it.
I would be fooling myself to say that I'd like to play some harder forms of music because, if I did, I'd take the bother to learn it.
The reason I love diddly music is because it's easy, and we all know that great music doesn't have to be difficult.
I post here cause I find you lot entertaining.
Diddly dabblers unite
# Posted on July 23rd 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
Michael, i'm glad you find we lot entertaining enough to reward us with your posts. Keep diddling.
# Posted on July 23rd 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
My dictionary is getting dog eared! I hope you are a good sport, Michael and I like the 'onomatopoetic' idea Volka. You are right that learning by ear (getting back to the thread) should be fun, and the music is 'diddly daddly' Michael and Volka. Lilting has everything to do with playing by ear. Warmed by a couple of Bailey's and a few nice toons I just want to quote a famous Aussie boxer: "I luv yous all".
Cheers from a merry diddly dabbler.
# Posted on July 23rd 2002 by Jill
Re: Learning by ear
Golly, how did you guys get in before me? I posted and you both appeared. Clearly you are a terrific sport Michael, wish we could all have some toons together. That is shots, not bottles, by the way. Cheers
# Posted on July 23rd 2002 by Jill
Re: Learning by ear
Come to Edinburgh, where everbody plays Irish music, even the Scottish.
# Posted on July 23rd 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
K, I thought you might like to know about a recording that we use for stepdancing but that would be an excellent CD for a beginning aural learner to learn off of. Billy McComiskey, Brendan Mulvihill, and Zan McLeod recorded *One More Time* for the Culkin School of Dance, and it has very common session standards on it played at varying speeds (as low as 70, in some cases, and no higher than 113 on the reels and 120 for the jjigs).
That may not sound all that unusual, but you'd be surprised...
How often can you play along with these three exellent players on tunes like Silver Spear, Mss McLeod's, Wise Maid, Gallagher's Frolics, Boys of Balisadare, Merrily Kiss the Quaker, Boys of Blue Hill, etc., at speeds slow enough for a beginner? I'll do a full track listing under the recordings section when I get done with this post.
I'm not sure where else you can buy it (I'm sure the Culkin school has it available somewhere), but I know my school's store, http://www.irishbutterfly.com, has it available at http://199.165.233.48/irishbutterfly/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=59&PHPSESSID=5f317e62057b59e20db83e84824f6d9b , for $15 USD.
I was really jazzed to find this CD -- I recommend it to everybody, dancers and beginning players alike. At last, a CD for Irish stepdancers with really good ITM on it.
Zina
# Posted on July 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
I'm with Seara
# Posted on July 31st 2002 by Maryalice
Re: Learning by ear
OK, i'll bite... learning by ear is an indispensible skill for a musician, but there isn't any reason to be afraid of or angry at sheet music. It's the same as saying that "stories have always been transmitted aurally, and for this reason i detest books!". If it wasn't for writing, most of the old stories would have been lost. If it wasn't for sheet music, most of the old tchunes would have been lost too. Persons and governments in Ireland and elsewhere put a lot of effort on interviewing traditional musicians and writing down their melodies, and so we still play those melodies today.
Sheet music is a notation system that, once we understand its limitations, works extremely well to preserve musical ideas, and it's universal. There's no need for anyone to feel embarassed for knowing the "dots" or "ABC" (which is really just a system for representing the "dots" through computer symbols).
Yes, the dots are not the music (and this applies just as well to Bach as to ITM). You have to know the details of the style and ornamentation before you can make music from the dots. The dots are like the finger pointing to the moon, in that well known zen koan. Still, we don't cut fingers (else we would all end up playing the harmonica).
http://www.geocities.com/nozendo/Finger/finger.html
# Posted on July 31st 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
In Chicago, When Chief O'Neil enlisted the help of Sergent O'Niel to write down the music of the local musicians, he didn't think the fact that the Sergent was classicaly trained and could not play diddly music mattered.
The result was, a thousand and one fiddle tunes almost destroyed.
Twas only the dilligence of the people still learning them aurally that saved them.
# Posted on July 31st 2002 by ...
The great Chicago fiddle tune calamity
Sarcastic response 1: I assume that this is why hundreds if not thousands of people look to the O'Neil books as an authoritative source on how tunes were played at that time.
Sarcastic response 2: Michael should be glad that he also has a mission in life!
Sarcastic response 3: In fact, i'm only interested in flute tunes, and those weren't destroyed.
Non-sarcastic response: Michael, i don't think you really know what you're writing about. You probably read it somewhere, or maybe you just wanted to post another little snide remark.
I remain unconvinced. I'm grateful not only to O'Neil, but to all people, from there to Zina, who have helped preserve tunes in writing. I still think that reading and writing music (dots or ABC) is an important skill that should be learned.
I also think that you don't really know a tune until you can play it by heart. And learning by ear is an essential skill in order to play traditional music.
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
Written music is a tool, that's all. We're not talking a religion or life philosophy here, we're talking about an aid to memory. Eoin
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
I don't understand the phobea against sheet music. I've been playing for over 20 years and am just now learning to read dot's. It has become a great tool for me to learn new tunes. Once I get the basics down, I seldom look at it again. Most of what I learn is still by ear, but being able to read a bit now has been a great help.
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Learning by ear
One more thing! I was at a session a couple of weeks ago and a girl showed up who was a classicly trained violinest. She could look at a piece of music covered with dot's having never seen it before and play it like she'd played it all her life.
She has a desire to learn ITM and decided to jump into the middle of it by joining our monthly Celtic Gathering. The poor girl as good as she was could not play a thing because it was not written down. Seeing her delima I pulled out a Portland Collection book and a couple of others and when we came to a tune I knew was in there I told her where to find it. Granted, she played along with us, not hitting the same grace notes and colorfull additions, but she was able to participate. I looked at her once and she had tears in her eyes. I asked her what was wrong and she said that she could not feel the music the way we could. Man that got me!
My point though is, had the sheet music not been there, she would have been left out in the cold. Because the sheet music was there, she has begun a journey of learning ITM. Her goal is to get away from music, but it is a starting point for her.
If someone would have jumped up and said, "Hey! you can't use music! It's not traditional!" She would have been destroyed, and we would have lost a player who is very capable of learning and joining in without sheet music in the future.
Zina is right! Sheet music is a tool. Good tools should not be frowned upon.
I'll get off my soap box now.
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Learning by ear
And what about the person who is trying to do it aurally, the traditional way, Flyinfiddler? Are you going to slow down and teach him/her the tune? No? How are you going to include them? Is what you did supporting the tradition, or supporting the classicalisation of it? Is the person playing from sheetmusic actually playing IRISH music? Or a classicalised diddly version that doesn't have any true meaning?
Many is the time I've heard the 'fake' stuff, and it is just that - F A K E (it makes me curl up inside). You can't get authenticity out of dots (handy shortcut tool as the dots on a page are - and who doesn't use them from time to time). It is well recognised that you can't really write Irish music down the way its played, so what is written down is not how its played (and there are lots of different ways of being right), and its the ornaments and what you do with what classically trained musicians think of as very simple dance music that is what makes it what it is.
I am sorry for your violinist that she discovered it the way she did. There is something to be said for going along just to listen and learn first. Think on how a traditional fiddler might feel if he/she was presented with a piece of sheetmusic that required heaps of playing anywhere up to fifth position (just an example). Would the classical violinist be as accommodating (I somehow doubt it)? I think it might be a common misconception in classical circles that Irish music is a doddle - with all their training they think they can go along to any session and blow the common socks off the purists.
Zina is so right, its what goes on behind the dots that makes it Irish. If it ain't got that zing it ain't Irish traditional music.
And Michael, in another thread is also right: there is a problem with people who can't hear the difference. If they are such radical musicians that they think they can get up and do it straight off, perhaps they would be better off playing something else! Any old dance music that doesn't have that wonderfully elusive extra dimension. Yueudi Menuin admitted to it. He could play folk music but not Irish. And that says it all.
Cheers
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by Jill
Re: Learning by ear
Hmmm. Well, I think everyone has their own reasons for loving the music, and everyone has their own ways of coming to the music, and that they're all just fine -- some are perhaps more "authentic", but if you take that to its logical extreme, the only people who would be allowed to play the music would be the actual Irish. As a Chinese American, I'd be one of the first to have to go, and I'd definitely fight that.
I think that's the way it should be.
When I first started, I had no one to teach me, and no one around to show me how important the feel was -- I didn't even own any recordings of anything but feis music. I started from written music, because I didn't know any better, one, and, two, it was the only way I had to learn. I didn't even know enough to know that it was an aural tradition, or that there WAS a difference in feel. Yet I think that now I perhaps contribute a little more than I detract to the tradition. So I'm glad no one took away my sheet music from me at the time, and that the few players I knew were encouraging and didn't shun me because of it. I'm glad, Wayne, that your session was welcoming to your classical gal in a way that she could understand, and hope that someday she'll be a valuable contributor to your session. Sounds like she has a fine ear if she could already hear a difference in feel.
A session allows what a session allows, depending on the makeup of contributors. I don't have any real problem with a session that wants to allow sheet music (although we don't allow it at ours -- because that's what our session is about...learning to learn aurally). I probably wouldn't spend much time at that sort of a session, admittedly, but it's no skin off my teeth if a group of people want to do what they want to do at their own session.
There's all kinds of sessions. Some are more inclusive or exclusive than others. Some don't care about the music so much as the crack (and it can be argued that that is the most authentic kind of Irish session there is). Some are completely closed sessions for members of a certain family or group only. You can always find or start a session if you don't care for your local.
Zina
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
Jill, you did not read my words very well, or I did not write them very well to get such a rude response. (if not ment to be rude I appologize)
I am in total agreement with you that most music readers cannot have the feel we do. But they can learn it. I've seen it happen with a few.
As for traditional, again, I challange anyone to define the term. As Zina once said, it has a different meaning for everyone.
Oh, I have slowed down and taught others tunes, without the use of sheet music. That is how the tradition is passed along.
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Learning by ear
Ha ha, It's so easy to wind you guys up. I knew slagging the Cheif off would do it.
This discussion is such fun, I've just taken the time to go back and read the lot from the start (phew) and it's amazing that, when it comes down to it, there is no dissagreement at all.
I love all this "No, the point I was making was..." etc. It really focuses the mind on why the hell we do this diddly thing in the first place.
I like the story of the classical girl. But it seems a shame that we pity her. It sounded to me that she was coming at it from the right angle: she knew she couldn't do it, (yet).
I really don't think it matters how you come to diddly music, whether you read it first in a book, were born into it or, as I did, just got totally bold over by The Bothy Band in my early teens. And it certainly doesn't matter if your Irish or not. That's the one that really gets my goat. It's like that "havn't black people got great rythm" thing. AAAAARRGGHH
What matters is that you use your ears (Like Jimi Hendrix did)
and that's the whole point about "learning by ear"
There IS no other way
# Posted on August 1st 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
D'you mean, like, "I'm black and I'm prrrroud!", Michael? *grin* (I really need to see The Commitments again.) I'd also agree that there's not a whole lot of actual disagreement going on. I think we're all pretty much agreed on the big stuff. Details, now, it's details that start the wars. So it's always good to remember we're still connected by the big stuff.
Though it's an interesting point -- at most sessions, they're not set up for beginners. You'd normally never think of slowing down and teaching someone who doesn't know how to learn by ear how to do it in the middle of a normal session.
I still remember, before being taught that listening was just as valuable as playing, being anxious to play but unable to either keep up or not knowing the tunes. (In fact, remembering that is part of how I can be patient -- not my usual state -- at our tune learning session.) Fair play and more to you, Wayne, for remembering it too. I too think that Classical Girl has no need of our pity, what with folks like you to look after her. Are you going to help her to get the feel outside the session?
Zina
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
It's important to say, Michael, that nobody here cares that much about "the Chief". I can't speak for the others, but the only reason i stuck my nose out was because i do believe that reading and writing music is a valuable skill to have, even for folk musicians. As Zina said, it's a good tool. The reason i jumped in into what was clearly a troll, is because it's not good for the people who are new and trying to learn, to only hear rants against "the dots". They should be allowed use all the tools in their reach to learn the music.
Whatever you say about "The Chief", Matt Molloy or anyone else has very little consequence. Over the years on the Internet i learned to tune out this kind of material. But if you offend real people that are part of the group and they leave, that's another thing alltogether, and may threaten the existence of the group.
Even though it may be fun to prod people and see they blow up, i would ask you to please find less harmful ways to contribute.
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by glauber
Commitments quotes
"The Irish are the Blacks of Europe."
"I got my nickname because of my playing. How did you get yours?"
I love that movie!
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning by ear
Actually there are a few of us who are going to try to help her. I think she'll catch on pretty quick. Her desire is to get away from the paper and play by ear.
That night had I not known that she was one of them thar high fallutin music readers that played with orchestras and such I would have never mentioned I had dot's with me.
We are going to try to start a slow session for her and others who are wanting to learn. (Not planning on using sheet music)
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Learning by ear
Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry
Once again I seem to have offended when I only meant to tickle ribs
Of course reading dots is usefull, I do it myself (though not verry well)
It's just that using your ears is vital.
I thought we all agreed on that.
And its not good to rant at anyone. Sorry again
Anyway, I'm off on my hols for a fortnight, so you can all have a rest from me
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by ...
Re: Learning by ear
Oh, I dunno, Michael. Sometimes a rant is just what you need to stir you out of self-complacency. Everybody and just about everything has a place in the macro-cosm. I think as we get to know you, we'll start having a sense for when you're fooling about and when you're actually meaning to be mean. *grin*
Anyway, Michael, have a good holiday, and we'll see you when you get back!
Wayne, how fun! A slow session! Let me know if I can help you in any way, and contact Mike Duffy at http://www.slowplayers.org and join up with us -- good way to get a website for free.
Zina
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear
It was certainly not my intention to be rude Flyingfiddler. You were being highly inclusive of the violinist in your session - and I should have started my post saying that. It was a very helpful act. But, I recon there should be NOONE who comes in good faith "left out in the cold" in an ITM session (unless, perhaps, if they are oing doing players who, unasking, sit down and play dirgey French waltzes in an ITM session in Scotland).
So why is a classically trained violinist anymore deserving of inclusion than anyone else? You shouldn't have to have classical training to become "very capable of learning and joining in".
I used to hear that classical FAKE stuff every year in the last night of "The Proms" in the Albert Hall - Drowsie Maggi, Irishwasherwoman etc sheetread at a zillion miles an hour (The annual Irish bracket) - I found it objectionable. It doesn't have anything to do with Irishness.
There is Zina, a Chinese American, committed and doing much more than her bit for ITM and step dancing. There is Gauber, from Brazil, Volka from Germany, Michael in Scotland. I'm fourth generation Aussie. It is wonderful we can all participate in the tradition and this website, and I for one luv it.
What I am trying to say (probably very inadequately as usual) is, that if people play ITM, they should be playing with a commitment to ITM. If the classical idea of the music is allowed to dominate, however, ITM is turned into something less than it should be. Very sad.
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by Jill
Six posts just whizzed by.
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by Jill
Six posts just whizzed by....
..... and everything is fine. the war on the details - gone ... I was watching this thread during the late afternoon and when Michael came up with his Ha Ha it is so easy to wind you guys up I lost my english: du bist
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by crannog
Re: Learning by ear
Ooooo, a new toy, Volker...isn't it fun how everything just zips into your computer, and it's even better because it doesn't matter how long you stay on?
zls
# Posted on August 2nd 2002 by Zina Lee