Please discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages to an octave mandolin, an Irish bouzouki, or a mandola for a mandolin player who wants to add to his session instruments.
octave mandol/in/as and bouzoukis sound lovely in a room or onstage but seem to disappear sonically in a session, unless they're playing rhythm, of which there's probably plenty already
Never turn up with just a mandolin. Always have a form of banjo with you as well. If the session stays small, then stick with the mandolin. Once the battery of boxes start up, its time to retaliate with the louder plunk. I think this is why banjo mandolins were invented. I can't see any other reason.
You need all three plus a tenor banjo tuned an octave below a mandolin. They have diffferent scale lengths and do different things.
Bouzouki (GDAE or GDAD) is very jangley cos of the long neck and octave tuning in the lower strings.
Octave mandolin has a warmer but tcrisper sound as the fretboard is shorter and the strings are heavier for the same pitch.
You know about mandolins. Mandolas are fun but the transposition can be a p[roblem Remember that you willl have to play on the lower strings to have any effect as its only the low c that is different to your mandolin.
Having said that, if I only take one instrument, its the banjo or the bouzouki. If i take only one, its one of the two depending on what i think the conditions will be like. and who else i think will go. You really only need one banjo in a session.
I think they (banjo-mandolins - see above) were invented to annoy me.
I've heard very nice accompaniment on octave mandolin tuned as bouzouki AEAE (etc), and, because the scale length is shorter than the bouzouki, it may be more manageable at first.
I play mandolin too, and I would choose an octave mandolin next, if it were my choice.
I play octave mando and find it a great instrument. Having played guitar and std mando in the past, I like it for its middle-ground niche. Ditto what Noel said about crispness vs. warmth. I prefer the warmth, but I find myself playing around with bouzoukis in shops when I can (there's something mysterious about the sound of a real zouk). I find the shorter scale length is much easier to deal with for fingering, but even so you'll find yourself wishing you could put your left hand on a stretcher to do what you normally do on a std mando! I also went to GDAD to make the chords easier to manage, and you get that nice open diad sound that's good for modal tunes. Check out Han Speek's website (http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/bouzouki/) for a bunch of good info and a handy GDAD chord chart.
I also have a hard time getting enough volume when there's more than a handful of players. I think there's two things operating...one is the relatively small resonating volume of my Weber Sage (~4" deep compared to some guitar-thickness zouks and citterns I've seen) and two is the deeper pitch, which tends to get lost in the crowd. I installed a MacIntyre piezo pickup a few years back, and I schlepp around a small amp to make myself heard. My standard jam group / band doesn't mind the amp and seems to value my presence (i.e., they hold back in some arrangements so my lead can be heard above the wall o' fiddles). I do mostly rhythm tho.
Cats, I think you'll dig the sound of the octave or bouzouki...it's deep enough to be satisfying like a guitar but has the punchiness you may like in your mando.
What fits in best with the session players with whom you most often play? That would be my first consideration, what would complement the usual ensembles, or which of these isn't being played with those folks now.
Thoughts about the instruments themselves...
If you choose a mandola you'll get to learn to transpose to play in CGDA tuning. I like the way mandolas sound in backing vocalists. With a scale of around 16" - 18", it isn't all that far from the mandolin, but has a nice lower timbre. The chord shapes are the same to your neck hand, but mean different things. <GG>
If you choose an octave mandolin (20" - 23" scale) it will take your melodic mandolin playing down an octave and you'll have a chance to add in some open chords and some closed ones, too, probably, cross-picking and strumming. And you might experiment with GDAD, ADAD, AEAE, or other tunings.
If you choose a bouzouki (scale of 24" and up), it may be more difficult to master the reach to play melodies without using chord shapes and picking thru them, but you can cross-pick and strum, and it's also common to try the tunings mentioned above.
I play a 25.4" scale bouzouki now, and guitar, and I like playing the bottom and bass lines. Most of the other guitar players in my area use capos a lot, so I can often find a place timbrally below where they are playing. I'd like to get a 22" octave some time, for a higher timbre, too.
If it is volume you are after then I think the suggestion of banjo probably fits !
I don't think there is much difference in the volume of an octave mando to a bouzouki, they are pretty much the same, only the bouzouki has more sustain. I think the answer is not WHICH instrument but WHO made it. Some instruments are louder than others but that doesn't mean the sound is better. My Fylde mandola and my F
sorry pushed the wrong button.........a fylde octave mando and a Fylde bouzouki will have very similar 'volume', although the bouzouki will have more sustain..........Maker plays a bit part of it. http://www.chinatogalway.com/BOUZOUKI%20style%20cover%20page.htm
I use an octave mandolin and like it very much, although as has been said it is hard to hear it in a big seisiún when playing tunes, but overall the best thing about it is that you can easily switch from tune playing to accompaniment. It is much easier to play tunes on than a bouzouki because of the shorter scale. First person I saw playing one in a seisiún was Ron Kavana and I though it was great the way he'd play the tune once or twice around and then give the set a great lift by launching into accompaniment. Generally other people tend to like the sound of the octave mandolin very much, in my experience anyway. Banjo is of course the best option if you want to be heard in or even lead a seisiún but it is not good for accompaniment in my opinion. I recently bought a resonating mandolin which is simlar to a banjo-mandolin but a bit mellower, it can be heard clearer than a regular mandolin in a seisiún. Some folks may not like the sound though but hey some folks don't like bodhráns, accordions, banjo, guitar etc, etc, so I say just give it a go. It is basically a mandolin with the body of a steel dobro guitar. Hope that helps.
Octave mandolin gets my vote. I bought a Weber Sage for accompaniment and melody after attending too many sessions with too many guitars. The Sage wasn't very loud, so I bought another one, and I'm in the process of selling it for a handmade octave.
I love my guitar and banjo, but the octave gives me the best of both worlds. It's a loud enough instrument (and the new one on order will be louder), and I can really help drive the session with it. Airs and waltzes are especially sweet, as a large mandolin often has almost a medieval sound. The octave is definitely easier to play, too, having a 22.5" scale. I tune it GDAE, but I'm moving to GDAD to make the reach to B easier.
The one I've got for sale now on Craig's list is a William Petersen octave, handmade in Nebraska, of all places. It's a very nice-sounding mandolin and quite attractive in an understated way. I like it a lot. It's got a really great sound, much better than octaves costing more, and it has good action and intonation. The Koa back and sides are particularly nice, and it has a Sitka spruce top. It has a much bigger sound than the Sage had, and it's an excellent instrument for an intermediate or advanced intermediate player. (If anyone is looking to buy such an octave, they can contact me directly.)
However, I decided in a fit of vanity that I wanted to trade up to something a cut above in fit and finish, and so I commissioned a new octave from Lawrence Nyberg, a luthier based on Hornby Island, B.C. It'll have an arched top and an Englemann spruce top and a Rosewood body. It's going to be a beautiful instrument, and I have high hopes for it. Lawrence is relatively unknown, but his instruments are beautiful, and the prices are reasonable. He's also stacked up only nine months or so, whereas the majority of the more well-known luthiers are completely slammed.
While I can see the reasons for preferring a shorter-scale instrument, I do prefer the tone of my 'zouk, and do play melodies on it as well as accompaniments. It's not impossible, you just have to throw your hand around a bit more ( and in GDae tuning, too).
As for matching volume to those nosy fiddles, etc., you could always ask them to put their mutes on ( joke ) ! Better still, talk to your luthier, put on a Red Henry-pattern bridge ( here I go again ), buy a larger-bodied 'zouk, pick it harder.
I agree that all the range of instruments have their uses and adherents, would like one ( several ) of each myself.
I am also arguing for a generic name for the range of instruments, subdivided or defined by scale length and/or tuning. "Why do you call it an Irish Bouzouki ?"...."Well, back in the late 60's, an Irishman brought a Greek bouzouki back to Ireland and tried playing Irsh music on it, and the rest is history.....".
Banjo Mandolins seem to annoy some people. It all depends on the instrument. There are many cheap and crappy banjo mandolins from the 1920s and 30s, often of European manufacture. I own such a crappy instrument myself, so understand that i may annoy some people. But as with zouks, there are instruments and instruments. I have played a colleague's Gibson banjo mandolin, and when well set up it is both a joy to play and has a lovely tone. That being said, I found it hard to stomach the thought of paying the asking price of over $1000. I'd pay more than that for a good zouk though. Maybe that make me a hypocrite. Better go and play a tune on the Vega tenor instead.
Maybe you could try the cittern instead of bouzouki, because the neck of the cittern is shorter than the bouzouki (so, it's nearer to the mandolin ) and you can tune it C G D A E or C G D A D both like a mandolin and a mandola. You can play melody and you can add bass notes to your chords when you play rythm !
I know a french maker who make fine instruments (in fact, really amazing instruments) you can visit his website both in french and english languages
Been to the web site. Lovely. Prices. My first instrument is the fiddle, but I am learning mandolin, octave mandolin and tenor banjo without much success. For me, the mandolin is easiest to play and the banjo has plenty of punch, but for tone I think I prefer the octave mandolin. It's great for the slow stuff and you can capo on 7th fret to get a mandola.
Pete,
There's always CBOM as a generic term for the cittern, bouzouki, octave mando family. It isn't elegant, but it's pronounceable. I've heard people advocate simply "cittern" for all of these instruments, but for me, that means "other", or "more than 4 courses" or "holy s*** what a cool-looking instrument!"
So Mattaeus, what's it like to have that low course of strings? I mean, if you're used to playing GDad, how do the chord shapes morph when you add the C string (I know, I know, I *could* figure it out, but hey, it's a conversation....)?
Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Please discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages to an octave mandolin, an Irish bouzouki, or a mandola for a mandolin player who wants to add to his session instruments.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Herding Cats
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
banjo
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Bren
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
octave mandol/in/as and bouzoukis sound lovely in a room or onstage but seem to disappear sonically in a session, unless they're playing rhythm, of which there's probably plenty already
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Bren
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Never turn up with just a mandolin. Always have a form of banjo with you as well. If the session stays small, then stick with the mandolin. Once the battery of boxes start up, its time to retaliate with the louder plunk. I think this is why banjo mandolins were invented. I can't see any other reason.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by _________
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
You need all three plus a tenor banjo tuned an octave below a mandolin. They have diffferent scale lengths and do different things.
Bouzouki (GDAE or GDAD) is very jangley cos of the long neck and octave tuning in the lower strings.
Octave mandolin has a warmer but tcrisper sound as the fretboard is shorter and the strings are heavier for the same pitch.
You know about mandolins. Mandolas are fun but the transposition can be a p[roblem Remember that you willl have to play on the lower strings to have any effect as its only the low c that is different to your mandolin.
Having said that, if I only take one instrument, its the banjo or the bouzouki. If i take only one, its one of the two depending on what i think the conditions will be like. and who else i think will go. You really only need one banjo in a session.
Noel
Angels of the North
Noel
Angels of the North
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by noelbats
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
I think they (banjo-mandolins - see above) were invented to annoy me.
I've heard very nice accompaniment on octave mandolin tuned as bouzouki AEAE (etc), and, because the scale length is shorter than the bouzouki, it may be more manageable at first.
I play mandolin too, and I would choose an octave mandolin next, if it were my choice.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
I play octave mando and find it a great instrument. Having played guitar and std mando in the past, I like it for its middle-ground niche. Ditto what Noel said about crispness vs. warmth. I prefer the warmth, but I find myself playing around with bouzoukis in shops when I can (there's something mysterious about the sound of a real zouk). I find the shorter scale length is much easier to deal with for fingering, but even so you'll find yourself wishing you could put your left hand on a stretcher to do what you normally do on a std mando! I also went to GDAD to make the chords easier to manage, and you get that nice open diad sound that's good for modal tunes. Check out Han Speek's website (http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/bouzouki/) for a bunch of good info and a handy GDAD chord chart.
I also have a hard time getting enough volume when there's more than a handful of players. I think there's two things operating...one is the relatively small resonating volume of my Weber Sage (~4" deep compared to some guitar-thickness zouks and citterns I've seen) and two is the deeper pitch, which tends to get lost in the crowd. I installed a MacIntyre piezo pickup a few years back, and I schlepp around a small amp to make myself heard. My standard jam group / band doesn't mind the amp and seems to value my presence (i.e., they hold back in some arrangements so my lead can be heard above the wall o' fiddles). I do mostly rhythm tho.
Cats, I think you'll dig the sound of the octave or bouzouki...it's deep enough to be satisfying like a guitar but has the punchiness you may like in your mando.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by roaringj
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
What fits in best with the session players with whom you most often play? That would be my first consideration, what would complement the usual ensembles, or which of these isn't being played with those folks now.
Thoughts about the instruments themselves...
If you choose a mandola you'll get to learn to transpose to play in CGDA tuning. I like the way mandolas sound in backing vocalists. With a scale of around 16" - 18", it isn't all that far from the mandolin, but has a nice lower timbre. The chord shapes are the same to your neck hand, but mean different things. <GG>
If you choose an octave mandolin (20" - 23" scale) it will take your melodic mandolin playing down an octave and you'll have a chance to add in some open chords and some closed ones, too, probably, cross-picking and strumming. And you might experiment with GDAD, ADAD, AEAE, or other tunings.
If you choose a bouzouki (scale of 24" and up), it may be more difficult to master the reach to play melodies without using chord shapes and picking thru them, but you can cross-pick and strum, and it's also common to try the tunings mentioned above.
I play a 25.4" scale bouzouki now, and guitar, and I like playing the bottom and bass lines. Most of the other guitar players in my area use capos a lot, so I can often find a place timbrally below where they are playing. I'd like to get a 22" octave some time, for a higher timbre, too.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
If it is volume you are after then I think the suggestion of banjo probably fits !
I don't think there is much difference in the volume of an octave mando to a bouzouki, they are pretty much the same, only the bouzouki has more sustain. I think the answer is not WHICH instrument but WHO made it. Some instruments are louder than others but that doesn't mean the sound is better. My Fylde mandola and my F
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by KS
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
sorry pushed the wrong button.........a fylde octave mando and a Fylde bouzouki will have very similar 'volume', although the bouzouki will have more sustain..........Maker plays a bit part of it.
http://www.chinatogalway.com/BOUZOUKI%20style%20cover%20page.htm
but if it is volume, then banjo.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by KS
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
I use an octave mandolin and like it very much, although as has been said it is hard to hear it in a big seisiún when playing tunes, but overall the best thing about it is that you can easily switch from tune playing to accompaniment. It is much easier to play tunes on than a bouzouki because of the shorter scale. First person I saw playing one in a seisiún was Ron Kavana and I though it was great the way he'd play the tune once or twice around and then give the set a great lift by launching into accompaniment. Generally other people tend to like the sound of the octave mandolin very much, in my experience anyway. Banjo is of course the best option if you want to be heard in or even lead a seisiún but it is not good for accompaniment in my opinion. I recently bought a resonating mandolin which is simlar to a banjo-mandolin but a bit mellower, it can be heard clearer than a regular mandolin in a seisiún. Some folks may not like the sound though but hey some folks don't like bodhráns, accordions, banjo, guitar etc, etc, so I say just give it a go. It is basically a mandolin with the body of a steel dobro guitar. Hope that helps.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Bored with thesession.org
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Octave mandolin gets my vote. I bought a Weber Sage for accompaniment and melody after attending too many sessions with too many guitars. The Sage wasn't very loud, so I bought another one, and I'm in the process of selling it for a handmade octave.
I love my guitar and banjo, but the octave gives me the best of both worlds. It's a loud enough instrument (and the new one on order will be louder), and I can really help drive the session with it. Airs and waltzes are especially sweet, as a large mandolin often has almost a medieval sound. The octave is definitely easier to play, too, having a 22.5" scale. I tune it GDAE, but I'm moving to GDAD to make the reach to B easier.
Mandolins rule!
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by High-strung
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Man, don't be so coy! <GG>
What was the one after the Sage, and what's the new one going to be like. Who's building it for you?
I like GDAD a lot.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Neil Barr was spot on about banjo-mandolins, ideal if you want to hear yourself at a session.
It would appear however that some people do not like them?
Lucky for me that I play a bodhran as well. Wouldn't want to upset anyone.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
The one I've got for sale now on Craig's list is a William Petersen octave, handmade in Nebraska, of all places. It's a very nice-sounding mandolin and quite attractive in an understated way. I like it a lot. It's got a really great sound, much better than octaves costing more, and it has good action and intonation. The Koa back and sides are particularly nice, and it has a Sitka spruce top. It has a much bigger sound than the Sage had, and it's an excellent instrument for an intermediate or advanced intermediate player. (If anyone is looking to buy such an octave, they can contact me directly.)
However, I decided in a fit of vanity that I wanted to trade up to something a cut above in fit and finish, and so I commissioned a new octave from Lawrence Nyberg, a luthier based on Hornby Island, B.C. It'll have an arched top and an Englemann spruce top and a Rosewood body. It's going to be a beautiful instrument, and I have high hopes for it. Lawrence is relatively unknown, but his instruments are beautiful, and the prices are reasonable. He's also stacked up only nine months or so, whereas the majority of the more well-known luthiers are completely slammed.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by High-strung
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
While I can see the reasons for preferring a shorter-scale instrument, I do prefer the tone of my 'zouk, and do play melodies on it as well as accompaniments. It's not impossible, you just have to throw your hand around a bit more ( and in GDae tuning, too).
As for matching volume to those nosy fiddles, etc., you could always ask them to put their mutes on ( joke ) ! Better still, talk to your luthier, put on a Red Henry-pattern bridge ( here I go again ), buy a larger-bodied 'zouk, pick it harder.
I agree that all the range of instruments have their uses and adherents, would like one ( several ) of each myself.
I am also arguing for a generic name for the range of instruments, subdivided or defined by scale length and/or tuning. "Why do you call it an Irish Bouzouki ?"...."Well, back in the late 60's, an Irishman brought a Greek bouzouki back to Ireland and tried playing Irsh music on it, and the rest is history.....".
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Banjo Mandolins seem to annoy some people. It all depends on the instrument. There are many cheap and crappy banjo mandolins from the 1920s and 30s, often of European manufacture. I own such a crappy instrument myself, so understand that i may annoy some people. But as with zouks, there are instruments and instruments. I have played a colleague's Gibson banjo mandolin, and when well set up it is both a joy to play and has a lovely tone. That being said, I found it hard to stomach the thought of paying the asking price of over $1000. I'd pay more than that for a good zouk though. Maybe that make me a hypocrite. Better go and play a tune on the Vega tenor instead.
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by _________
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Maybe you could try the cittern instead of bouzouki, because the neck of the cittern is shorter than the bouzouki (so, it's nearer to the mandolin
) and you can tune it C G D A E or C G D A D both like a mandolin and a mandola. You can play melody and you can add bass notes to your chords when you play rythm !
I know a french maker who make fine instruments (in fact, really amazing instruments) you can visit his website both in french and english languages
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/boluda/en-cadreaccueil.htm
good luck
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by Mattaeus
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Been to the web site. Lovely. Prices. My first instrument is the fiddle, but I am learning mandolin, octave mandolin and tenor banjo without much success. For me, the mandolin is easiest to play and the banjo has plenty of punch, but for tone I think I prefer the octave mandolin. It's great for the slow stuff and you can capo on 7th fret to get a mandola.
# Posted on July 26th 2005 by lukegarry
Re: Mandola, Octave Mandolin, or Irish Bouzouki?
Pete,
There's always CBOM as a generic term for the cittern, bouzouki, octave mando family. It isn't elegant, but it's pronounceable. I've heard people advocate simply "cittern" for all of these instruments, but for me, that means "other", or "more than 4 courses" or "holy s*** what a cool-looking instrument!"
So Mattaeus, what's it like to have that low course of strings? I mean, if you're used to playing GDad, how do the chord shapes morph when you add the C string (I know, I know, I *could* figure it out, but hey, it's a conversation....)?
# Posted on July 27th 2005 by roaringj