What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
There’s always plenty of discussion about what makes a good or sensitive guitar/bouzouki/etc. backer (strummer if you will), but sensitive and good seem to mean different things to different people.
Normally the main contributors to these discussions are backers themselves.
The likes of Arty McGlyn, John Doyle, Steve Cooney, Donal Lunny, Micheal O’Domhnaill, Donough Hennesey, Jim Murray, Zan Mcleod, Paul Brady, Denis Cahill etc. although I think
all are brilliant, every one of them seem to have a few on this site anyway who don’t like them for certain reasons. This is not unusual I suppose as all the above are very different.
It would be interesting to hear from melody players, what they look for or like to hear in a backer, and more importantly I suppose what they don’t like to hear.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't know too much about backing, except for what I've read in passing on this site and in coyotebanjo's book so I couldn't tell you off hand whose style I like from the names you list, but I definitely prefer the rhythmic dadgad approach - with the emphasis on fifths and octaves, and sparing use of thirds and sevenths, over say standard tuning, with the near constant presence of the third. If the backer is able to throw in intermittent melody riffs into that, so much the better. Also, I prefer bouzouki melody-drone/cherang-ing to guitar.
But then I've been spoilt: our backer is amazing. He just gets the groove going, without packaged rhythm patterns.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Social sensitivity is more important than playing the right chords. Melody players are a funny lot - and I'm one so I should know.
In an anything goes kind of a session you might have a totally inappropriate jazzy counter melody in Z flat which you think sounds really good with the tune Dave has picked to be his new flute solo. If you come straight in with it then he will probably falter, stop - and then throttle you.
If you stay silent till he's finished the new tune in triumph and the applause has died down and then you say "That was fantastic! Could I prevail on you to play it through again to see if my inappropriate counter-melody in Z flat works?" then he will probably say "Oh go on!" and either it works to further applause or it doesn't work, to the amusement of all.
Really serious, intellectual Irish sessions are another matter. Just taking out a backing instrument and holding it in your hands is like sitting holding a gun. The most confident melody players are suddenly inspired by modal tunes in 5/8 and the more timorous give up and go home.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Do melody players (particularly in large sessions) actually spend a great deal of effort listening to backers? I'd have thought that their focus would be on listening to the other melody players. I mean, I can't imagine a fiddle player sitting there going "blimey, I wish that guitarist would stop playing all those thirds and put in some more passing chords" or whatever. Instead, I imaging him or her thinking "that bloody flutes out of tune again"
I should point out that I've not had the pleasure of playing in a large session myself, (there are only three of us in my "gang", unfortunately, and I guess we'd agree that we're all at various stages of learning) so I'm not stating a point of view, I'm just asking a question.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I tend to get distracted from what I'm playing if the backing is either really good or really bad. Usually because it's really bad but just occasionally a backer does something so stunningly brilliant that I totally forget what I'm playing!
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
No, plinkey, especially in a large session or crowded bar, we really depend on the "backers" to keep it together. Sometimes I'll drop back and play open fifth's for a few bars.
Trying to play with a lot of inaccurate rhythm going on is like walking around in a dark room with a lot of litter on the floor. (yes, I do that a lot. no I don't like it.)
As The Blisster mentioned elsewhere: there are very few useful variations to the rhythm. The "Flash" backers are not backing, they're distracting. If yr that hot it's time you tackled melody playing anyway.
Simple rhythms, simple chords. Switching voices (like he -man - cat etc describes) with the sections is good. I like the occaisional tension note right before a section change, not every time or even most of the time.
I also like fingerpicking and bare knuckle bodhran, but that's only because I cant hear them.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
As a guitar picker who only goes to sessions because my kids(whistle/flute players) bring me and because I like to listen, I can say it's allot simpler when there is only one strummer.
Stage performance is much much different than playing at a session and the above "stars" of Irish guitar can play allot more on a stage with defined sets. As for me rule #1 is don't play when you don't know the tune and when you do know the tune ask yourself "am I adding to the momentum of the set or am I detracting. You can't add anything if your playing all through the set. If your in full force playing you got to be ready for a tune change so watch for cues from the leader. I hate when the session leader goes from one familiar tune to another and everyone drops out. uugh! I think what my kids look for me to do is to give them enough space to play the melody independently when it's more appropriate and to keep them in perfect time when I play.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I am only joining this thread to tell guitarists to back out. THis is where the melody players get a chance to say what they do like in backing and those that don't like any backing should also stay out of this.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Well, as a melody player, I guess I get to make a comment
What I want to hear from backers is in effect the same thing I hope to hear from everyone playing at a session and that is to simply be part of the ensemble sound, the blend. Nothing fancy, nothing to detract or distract from the tune. When it's not a solo, it's about the sound we, as a group, are making.
This means you must know the tune. While usually predictable, the rhythms and chord progressions the melody takes, when least expected, can take a totally different direction from what your instinct may tell you to anticipate. Guessing is just no good enough, for backers just as it's not for melody players.
Finally, about blending and volume, backers just like melody players must listen to the other players. If you can't hear the others, you're playing too loud.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Donough,
When I first read your comment, I thought when you said 'back out' that you wanted guitarists to stop accompanying people. But on second reading, it looks like you are saying that you want accompanists to stay out of the thread, as this is a chance for them to hear what others want. And you are also urging people who don't want any backing to stay out of the discussion (since we already know what they want).
Those are sound ideas.
I will shut up, listen and learn.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
In response to the first question: silence
Donough is right - this is symptomatic you might say of backers who think that their aim is to be heard above everyone else...
Re comments about being 'on beat', ''in time' - this has to be a given anyway. If you can't do this much then....
Seriously -
You want to hear that they are listening to you and the tunes.
That they know when to stop (if they're totally at sea).
That they know the tune and are not just bluffing.
That they can take a hint (the amount of times I've played with people who are in the wrong key and sit there oblivious to the chords I'm bashing out on the box is frightening).
That they realise they're not a soloist.
Someone mentioned groove - yes, a good backer can add that.
Someone else said taking out a backing instrument at a 'serious' session was like taking out a gun...that's because playing with random backers is like Russian Roulette - with more bullets (chances are that it'll end in tears). I've done the 'obscure' tune strategy on occasion - play enough awkward tunes and perhaps whoever is 3-chord tricking may get discouraged. Or at least stop for that set.
Still, a good one is hard to beat at a session (last 3 tunes I've had were respectively exc bouz, piano, and bouz). In all cases they helped keep it together - esp piano which was a big-ish session (though with all *solid* players) in a really noisy pub.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
1. Don't drown me out. I've only got a little instrument you know.
2. Do you have to put that F chord into every G (or is it D) tune? It sounded interesting and different - once.
3. You have several strings that could provide a drone. Doesn't mean you have to have them ringing all the time.
4. Don't speed up "cos it would be good for the crack". I'm already playing the tune as fast as I can. Even I could go faster if I were just playing chords.
5. Leave some space. If there are two of you, and the other one leaves some space, don't fill it. Less is more.
6. I might be the only one on here who prefers Shetland style dum-chick, a gentle but insistent pulse with a nice half-beat silence in between each dum and chick. So less of the DADGAD wall of sound and more of the sprightly moving bass & chord , tailored to the tune, for me.
7. No offence to any guitarists I've played with, you're all brilliant and most annoyingly can play at least one tune on mandolin better than I can. I warn you though, I will pick up your guitar and accompany you with my unique "Slim Dusty meets Bert Weedon on the Shetland ferry" style.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Only play if you know the song AND the timing of it. I was playing in a jam once when a group of girl scouts came up and we started the whole, introduce the instruments and play them. When they introduced me on the fiddle, the leader had me play Orange Blossom Special for the girls. Now, at the best of times the rhythm on this song is difficult, that evening I had a guitarist trying to play with me, who didn't know the version of the song I was playing and so was hitting the wrong chords at the wrong times. Don't do this.
Make sure that you're playing the same version of a song, so if they're using c natural instead of c sharp don't put an A Major chord to back them up.
Really good rhythm, I have to be kept grounded, so I like a backer to keep me steady.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I really enjoy playing in E minor when there's a jumbo guitar to do those terrific chords - which shows I do sometimes listen to the backing instruments. Unfortunately there are very few of the old Harmony Sovereign sort of guitars around here now to do the big E minors and I just don't enjoy playing Eminor tunes the same if it is to the subtle tinkling of a bouzouki or a guitar with an identity crisis.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
One of my weekly sessions has no backers - or bangers for that matter. 100% melody instruments. Heaven!
Oh, and it's an English session, but with players experienced in other genres, so there’s always a generous amount of Irish mixed in with the English.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Ok, so I'll add trust in yourself too. If you're gonna take a risk, risk it all, risk big. If you think something would fit, then do it. Maybe we are melody players, but without the rest of it, do you really have music? Is music melody or harmony? WIthout rhythm and chords and harmony the music is emptier. So go with your gut instincts as well as your sense of self-preservation so as not to tick off some overly egotistic melodician and have them ranting at you.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Musicfan,
sorry, that's crap.
Less is more.
Without Harmony, you have something called Irish music.
With harmony, you may have something very pleasing to the ear, but not traditional Irish....
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
To you. Irish music is not all melody. Sorry, but some of the best Irish music that I've heard has involved strong harmony from backup players.
yours,
overly harmonic fiddler
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
You know, I walked away from the computer and picked up my fiddle to play and to drain away any bad feelings. And thought a bit about what you said. I guess the best thing to figure is that one man's crap is another man's cream.
I don't like going anywhere and listening to any kind of music that only involves everything fighting for the melody and lead. It reminds me of singing in a women's chorus, way to many sopranas and not enough people to counter with harmony.
The same thing happens when I'm around to many melodicians. What can be soaring fiddle and flute riffs and jolly button lines just turns into a kind of cacophony that hurts my ears. I like order in music, not a lot but harmony helps with that. And there is no reason that someone should be relegated to the less is more backup style just because it's what floats someone else's boat.
So, along those same lines to the backers, don't play anything that would make anything more cacophonous. If anything, ground the melodicians, sometimes they are too full of themselves (or guiness) to remember their manners.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't know musicfan, to me what most backers do regarding harmony is makes the music is less ambigious chordwise. This makes the music more palatable for people who are more used to listening to contemporary music which is more chordbased, relative to raw trad which does not require and often benefits from being unaccompanied. With an exception of a few, I find that accompaniment takes away something sweet in the music. Worse still a lot of backers iron out the rhythm making for boring wallpaper music.
My favourite backers are Reg Hall, Alec Finn and Dennis Cahill.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I hate backers. It's a pointless diversion. That's not to say I don't love playing with really good strummers. Contradiction? Not at all. The point is that I like to have an equal footing with the people I play with, strummers or tune players. It's a give and take thing. Everyone in the ensemble should be influencing and affecting the sound, Listening and responding. All this talk of needing the strummers to be inoffensiveness is just so boring. What was it? "On the beat, in the key and not too loud?" If that's all you can manage, then shut up
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Thanks BegFfor initiating this discussion. As you see, like Donough, I am listening as well although unlike Donough, I am not a good guitarist. Oh, I play alright I suppose, but being good can be so boring. Not too much new I’m afraid but the information is certainly more organized.
By the way, well said Michael, the part about being on the beat and all!
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
And I dislike this divission of labour anyway. It's the subservience of it. I think the idea that the strummer is, at best, the servant of the tune player is ridiculous. If anything, the strummer has the advantage of not being contrained as much by the tune
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
See, that's my point, if they aren't getting paid to do it, they aren't accompanying you. You're collaborating. Everything in music is give and take, except for Bach, but then he's classical, not Irish.
What we choose to make of ITM is our business, whether we like it with lots of melody and no harmony in a less is more type attitude, or whether we like more harmony and more of a collaboration of efforts to make the music type attitude, it's ITM to us and ours.
Are we going to satisfy every purist that way? No, some people will always complain that you aren't doing it the way it's always been done (how very southern baptist of them, no?), they sometimes forget though, that ITM comes from the improvisational periods of the aural tradition.
Some itinerant fiddler(piper, whomever) played a tune this way and others heard it, and played it differently. The joys of ITM is that you aren't constrained by dots on a paper, the sad thing is that the "we've always done it this way" mindset, can be even more constraining then notes on a page. And if we treat guitarists, and other "backers" like they aren't important, then we're killing it too.
I think that as 'melody' players we are probably too full of ourselves, and we should stop and appreciate our 'backers/strummers' more.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I agree with Michael. We're all here to make music together, not be each other's servants. You could equally say "what do backers want to hear from melody players?", if you were so inclined. I play both melody and backing. When I'm backing, I like to hear the tunes played well, and consistently in rhythm because it makes my job so much easier. I hate having to battle to maintain the timing. That's something a melody player should be able to do already without having it provided for them. When I'm playing melody, I like to hear a backer play a solid consistent rhythm and not rush me or drag me back, otherwise it's incredibly annoying and distracting. I like to hear them playing chords and basslines that I'd either choose myself, or wish I were able to find whenever I'm backing. In other words, I'm fussy as hell. Of course, often it doesn't work out that way, playing either instrument, but hey, the buzz that happens at times when it does click is worth waiting for.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
That came out all wrong. The point I was trying to make was that when I'm backing, I have in mind what the melody player might want to hear from me *because* I play melody too, and vice versa. So it's a 2-way thing, spontaneously playing off each other's energy and musical ideas on the fly. It's not about backer = servant.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
That's it, it's an "unspoken 2-way understanding that each serves the other", so you're "serving" without being "subserviant". If you don't have that then the music suffers, I think.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don’t disagree with you Dow, and yes of course you could easily ask “what do backers want to hear from melody players” as you’ve proven by answering.
But’s that not what was asked.
I agree I hate when I’m asked to provide the rhythm, the rhythm should already be there.
However what was asked (and just as easily) was what do melody players want from backers.
The answers have been varied and interesting…..and I’d be especially interested in your answer as you play both.
And I agree with MG about inoffensive backing being boring, but I think certain words mean different things
to different people. I know MG mightn’t like if I started The Earl’s Chair with a Bm instead of a G, he said so before – this might be “offensive” to him. Others may be offended if it’s not square on the beat changing at the right place – others still find that as offensive as a metronome.
It’s just that words used to describe accompaniment, like sensitive, drive, inoffensive etc are said by everyone
but mean different things so it’s good to get more of a detailed description.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Sorry, I think I probably posted my answer without thinking enough beforehand. I guess I looked at the question and thought "well when I play melody I want this and this and this... but, hang on, it's not as simple as that". But assuming that this is about "what do I like when I hear it", then I'd say the following:
1) I don't like to hear physical tension in a backer's playing. You can immediately hear the effect that wrist or forearm tension has in the sound and I don't like it. It affects the tone, and the rhythm too. Then again, I don't like sloppy-sounding backing where the player is so relaxed they're out of rhythm.
2) I like to hear swung backing for most tunes. It sounds more relaxed and grooved up. There's nothing worse than listening to - or watching - a guitarist strum even eighth-notes for a reel or jig. There's no dance in it at all, and it effectively bars any possibilities for a melody player to play in a danceable rhythm. I'd even rather hear it too swung than not at all. I've found that "too swung" is not as damaging to the rhythm as "too straight".
3) I like to hear a backer who knows the tunes, and who can accent areas of the tune appropriately, as opposed to strumming some sort of set, formulaic, syncopated rhythm for every tune, yuck. Then again, sometimes I really enjoy a repeated riff set up as a sort of ostinato. Depends on my mood. I want the backer to know which mood I'm in.
4) I like to hear a backer play a mixture of bare power chords and triads. That balance is important. But sometimes I like to hear mad backing which is a bit jazzy, coloured with some 7ths and 9ths, especially in hornpipey or barndancey tunes, and some reels etc.
5) I like to hear a backer "push" the tune occasionally, and by that I mean not "push" in the sense of rushing, but finding chord progressions that work really well but are slightly out of the ordinary, and showcase the tune in a different light, giving you the shivers and goose bumps. But sometimes I want the backer *not* to push it. I just want to hear something bare and basic like a drone. It depends on the tune, and on my mood at the time. I want the backer to recognise that mood and respond accordingly.
6) If I start a tune at a certain tempo, sometimes I don't want the backer to change it, and I'm distracted if the beat is pushed or dragged slightly adrift of what I had in mind. However, sometimes I want the backer to pick up the rhythm and push me a little bit to boost my energy levels. I want the backer to be able to tell which of these I want by mindreading me.
7) I want the backer to know which tune I'm about to go into and respond, and if I shout a key, I want them to know I meant "E minor", when I said "B minor" by mistake.
Okay this is getting silly, but you get the picture. I'm a bit fussy, but not as fussy as I'm making out here!
At least, that's what I'm *saying*. If you mindread me you might find out otherwise...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
You reckon? When I'm backing for a melody player, I want the following from that melody player:
1) I want them to tell me which keys and modes they're going to be playing in for the whole set *in advance*, so I can be lazy and set the capo in one place and leave it there and just change my chord shapes for the different keys. But sometimes I just want them to play and not tell me anything so it keeps me on my toes. I want them to understand when to involve me in their decision-making process and when not.
2) I want them always to shout out an exact key (specifying mode *for each part, mind*, and odd accidentals that may appear), about 3 or 4 bars before changing tunes so I can quickly plan ahead and maybe change my capo, or do a sort of tacky breakdown riff and have a quick sip of my drink while I slip the capo off with my other hand. These things need planning. I want them never to shout out a key because it makes it look as though I need them to help me with my keys, and that's just irritating, cuz what the faq do melody-players know about keys?! Sheesh.
3) I want them to admit that it's not the tune that's amazingly well-written by Paddy O'Brien or Junior Crehan, it's the chords I'm putting to it that *make* it sound well-written. It doesn't have to be to my face. I can mindread you know.
4) I want melody players to play at a steady pace unless I want them to play fast, in which case it's going to have to be them who speed me up so that they can't then turn round and say that I was pushing the beat.
5) I want to hear melody players play nice and swingy, because it means I can relax more and give the tune more space to breathe, and it means that I'm not concentrating so much on trying to keep time with their crap rhythm that I don't have time to think about what to do with the chords. I want them to supply me with solid rhythm because playing the tune's not my bloody job. But then I want them to damn well keep time with me.
6) I want to hear melody players do some cool variations which I can respond to by changing my rhythm or harmonies appropriately, so we can all kid ourselves that we sound tight.
7) If a melody player mindreads me and realises that I cannit bloody mindread, and that I don't know that they're going to play the tune again, then I want them to shout *AGAIN!* loudly and clearly.
8) When a set is about to finish, I want the melody player to make that clear by shouting or using body language. Then I can go ahead and do a cool ending cadence and everyone can have that satisfying feeling of: "ah what a great, nice, rounded set of tunes". If not, then obviously I'm just going to carry on playing, and they can glare at me all they like but it's still their fault. They're the ones deciding what tunes to play and how many times to play each, not me. I'm just a backer.
But most of all I want this:
9) I want melody players to stop doing this annoying thing which you think is really funny but it drives me insane - stop playing your show-off stupid wacky tunes just because you know they're hard for backers and you're trying deliberately to confuse me. It's not clever and it's not funny!
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Ya'll don't give warning when you're ending tunes? 'Round here, whoever kicked it off calls off 'last time round' or 'one more time' in order to warn people that they're gonna quit. Or, some of them stick their foot up in the air, if they aren't comfortable talking. That does look kinda funny, but at least it warns everyone that the end is coming.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Fascinating stuff. I've been reading along and paying close attention, and sent this discussion along to some other playing pals. Thanks to all! And good stuff, Dow, thanks for that!
I enjoy several types of 'backing' and I look for a mix of them to keep me on edge <GG> ...
One is in a session with confident, veteran melody players who will listen to one another and conspire to play variations that I can accent with chords or rhytmic variations.
Another is (more common) a session with a number of players who are still just reciting the tunes and can be derailed by an unfamiliar melodic twist, ornament, chord or rhythm. It's really great fun to underplay and support the flow for these!
The next is to play in small sessions or ensembles (I LOVE our trio!) in which equality among the players is a given, and we all listen very closely to make some uncluttered and maybe even graceful music.
John Doyle just played here with Liz Carroll, and in the next couple of sessions, some of our young and impressionable guitar players went all Doyle on us. Some of the melodists explained to them that John gets to play that way because he is in a duet, and that that is perfectly appropriate. John actually does play a bit differently in sessions, when I've heard him, and that's appropriate too.
But, I'm chiming out now. Melodists have the right-of-way here and I'll go back to soaking up what else is to be said.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Musicfan has many interesting points, as does my old mucker M.G.
Those who say there should be no backing probably are Southern Babtists, originally from Ballymena in Norn Ireland.
Put it this way. Set M.G down and get him to play a few tunes solo on a fiddle, and it may sound lovely and will attract the interest of the discerning punter. Put me beside him, and you have a session, as I will be enhancing M.G's dulcet notes. And you will attract the discerning ear, and also may win a few future converts.
Let's face it, Frankie Kennedy was 18 when he asked me to teach him the tin whistle, he was a neighbour, so we can have late converts.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
A room full of strummers? Not my cup of tea, but guitar players way out number us diddlers in the world. You think a guitar can't play music on it's own?
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
And I've thought about the argument whether strummers or no strummers and it doesn't come down to this at all. It's about whether you have musicians listening and playing off each other, or people doing their own thing and people being their servants. Regardles of whether you tune or strum
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
In my college daze, I had several friends who were music majors and were always saying things like “neopolitan seventh”, “second inversion” (or was it “perversion”?), “homophonic” (not to be confused with “homophobic”, which hadn’t been coined at the time) and “sense of ensemble”. I gradually picked up some of their strange dialect and learned to especially appreciate that last one. It’s hard to define, but when you play with a group of folks who have it, it can lift the music from Fun to Sublime. It’s like… I mean, it’s sort of … Oh, crap! It’s hard to talk about.
Anyway, I think that particular sensitivity is the most important characteristic of an accompanist. I think I feel it the most when I’m trying to accompany an unfamiliar tune. I don’t know anything in advance, so I’m reduced to the bare essentials of accompaniment. I’ll start *very* simply and let the tune carry me along until I feel the groove and start subtly punctuating it. The challenge cranks up the sensitivity and opens up possibilities for some really cool stuff that I wouldn’t have come to with a familiar tune. Or maybe I crash and burn, but it’s worth the ride.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
good on you. The best diddles are a bit of a roller coaster, on the edge etc. Forget this "On the beat and in the key and not too much volume" nonsense
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Did I say twit? I thought this site had rules about insulting people, and showing tolerance? Months ago my old mucker M.G was threatening to kick my head in, now he is openly insulting me.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Therefore it's down to choices michael.
Strummers have made a concious decision to be strummers, no one pointed the finger at them and said "you will be a strummer" and " you will faithfully follow the music"
Is it that they wont play melody? again, their choice, perhaps they can't, (another issue).
I would, however, prefer no 'backing' to bad backing, given a choice.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I think everyone would prefer no backing to bad backing.
And again it’s “one man’s poison…”,
To some the on the beat, obvious changes, is good backing, where others feel like getting sick, and vice versa for the seat of the pants, take the risk, maybe crash and burn type backing.
I think it’s refreshing to hear that there are those out there who want more than a metronome playing chords.
Now if we were crashing and burning all the time then there could be issues !
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't think I have missed the point.
So perhaps we should call it accompanyment. The guitarist or whatever beside you playing chords to your melody. You are equals in a session.
It's still backing, unless of course the guitarist shoots of into a profusion of chords and 'you' have to find a tune that fits, thats more like equality.
At the end of the day it's how you choose to perceive the wording.
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I’m still confused with Michael Gill’s contradiction (I’m a bit on the slow side)
“I hate backers. It's a pointless diversion. That's not to say I don't love playing with really good strummers.”
And also the hierarchy thread and this “I like to have an equal footing with the people I play with, strummers or tune players”
Is it you believe there is a hierarchy of instruments but as long as they are going to be there then they should be doing more than just existing inoffensively ?
What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
There’s always plenty of discussion about what makes a good or sensitive guitar/bouzouki/etc. backer (strummer if you will), but sensitive and good seem to mean different things to different people.
Normally the main contributors to these discussions are backers themselves.
The likes of Arty McGlyn, John Doyle, Steve Cooney, Donal Lunny, Micheal O’Domhnaill, Donough Hennesey, Jim Murray, Zan Mcleod, Paul Brady, Denis Cahill etc. although I think
all are brilliant, every one of them seem to have a few on this site anyway who don’t like them for certain reasons. This is not unusual I suppose as all the above are very different.
It would be interesting to hear from melody players, what they look for or like to hear in a backer, and more importantly I suppose what they don’t like to hear.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
On the beat and in the key and not too much volume.
If they want to go further than that and play in a way that reflects the stops and changes in the melody, then so much the better.
I've enjoyed this discussion Mr BegF - let's do it again sometime.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Thanks Showie, I'll pencil you in for friday week.
On the beat and in key eh....so crazy it just might work !
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
As for asking what people don't like to hear . . .
cue Michael - on 3 - 1......2.........
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't know too much about backing, except for what I've read in passing on this site and in coyotebanjo's book so I couldn't tell you off hand whose style I like from the names you list, but I definitely prefer the rhythmic dadgad approach - with the emphasis on fifths and octaves, and sparing use of thirds and sevenths, over say standard tuning, with the near constant presence of the third. If the backer is able to throw in intermittent melody riffs into that, so much the better. Also, I prefer bouzouki melody-drone/cherang-ing to guitar.
But then I've been spoilt: our backer is amazing. He just gets the groove going, without packaged rhythm patterns.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Q
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I think what most melody players what to hear from backers is "Well, I guess it's my round then...."
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't confine that one to backers plinkey, I'll accept that from anyone.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Coyotebanjo book wouldn’t be light reading on backing.
Q, Is you’re backer on the Mightycraiconline thing, or are you playing solo on that ?
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Social sensitivity is more important than playing the right chords. Melody players are a funny lot - and I'm one so I should know.
In an anything goes kind of a session you might have a totally inappropriate jazzy counter melody in Z flat which you think sounds really good with the tune Dave has picked to be his new flute solo. If you come straight in with it then he will probably falter, stop - and then throttle you.
If you stay silent till he's finished the new tune in triumph and the applause has died down and then you say "That was fantastic! Could I prevail on you to play it through again to see if my inappropriate counter-melody in Z flat works?" then he will probably say "Oh go on!" and either it works to further applause or it doesn't work, to the amusement of all.
Really serious, intellectual Irish sessions are another matter. Just taking out a backing instrument and holding it in your hands is like sitting holding a gun. The most confident melody players are suddenly inspired by modal tunes in 5/8 and the more timorous give up and go home.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I'm solo on the mightycraiconline, Begf, but if you like I'll mail you a couple of tracks where Woody's backing is superb but my playing's rubbish.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Q
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Thanks Q, it's been a while since I listened to it, I couldn;t remember whether you were solo or no.
I'll send you an email.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Do melody players (particularly in large sessions) actually spend a great deal of effort listening to backers? I'd have thought that their focus would be on listening to the other melody players. I mean, I can't imagine a fiddle player sitting there going "blimey, I wish that guitarist would stop playing all those thirds and put in some more passing chords" or whatever. Instead, I imaging him or her thinking "that bloody flutes out of tune again"
I should point out that I've not had the pleasure of playing in a large session myself, (there are only three of us in my "gang", unfortunately, and I guess we'd agree that we're all at various stages of learning) so I'm not stating a point of view, I'm just asking a question.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Hey, I've learned how to do smileys!
My boss will be so pleased.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I tend to get distracted from what I'm playing if the backing is either really good or really bad. Usually because it's really bad but just occasionally a backer does something so stunningly brilliant that I totally forget what I'm playing!
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
No, plinkey, especially in a large session or crowded bar, we really depend on the "backers" to keep it together. Sometimes I'll drop back and play open fifth's for a few bars.
Trying to play with a lot of inaccurate rhythm going on is like walking around in a dark room with a lot of litter on the floor. (yes, I do that a lot. no I don't like it.)
As The Blisster mentioned elsewhere: there are very few useful variations to the rhythm. The "Flash" backers are not backing, they're distracting. If yr that hot it's time you tackled melody playing anyway.
Simple rhythms, simple chords. Switching voices (like he -man - cat etc describes) with the sections is good. I like the occaisional tension note right before a section change, not every time or even most of the time.
I also like fingerpicking and bare knuckle bodhran, but that's only because I cant hear them.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
begf, you have mail
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Q
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
As a guitar picker who only goes to sessions because my kids(whistle/flute players) bring me and because I like to listen, I can say it's allot simpler when there is only one strummer.
Stage performance is much much different than playing at a session and the above "stars" of Irish guitar can play allot more on a stage with defined sets. As for me rule #1 is don't play when you don't know the tune and when you do know the tune ask yourself "am I adding to the momentum of the set or am I detracting. You can't add anything if your playing all through the set. If your in full force playing you got to be ready for a tune change so watch for cues from the leader. I hate when the session leader goes from one familiar tune to another and everyone drops out. uugh! I think what my kids look for me to do is to give them enough space to play the melody independently when it's more appropriate and to keep them in perfect time when I play.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by JPcares
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I am only joining this thread to tell guitarists to back out. THis is where the melody players get a chance to say what they do like in backing and those that don't like any backing should also stay out of this.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Donough
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Agreed
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Well, as a melody player, I guess I get to make a comment
What I want to hear from backers is in effect the same thing I hope to hear from everyone playing at a session and that is to simply be part of the ensemble sound, the blend. Nothing fancy, nothing to detract or distract from the tune. When it's not a solo, it's about the sound we, as a group, are making.
This means you must know the tune. While usually predictable, the rhythms and chord progressions the melody takes, when least expected, can take a totally different direction from what your instinct may tell you to anticipate. Guessing is just no good enough, for backers just as it's not for melody players.
Finally, about blending and volume, backers just like melody players must listen to the other players. If you can't hear the others, you're playing too loud.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Donough,
When I first read your comment, I thought when you said 'back out' that you wanted guitarists to stop accompanying people. But on second reading, it looks like you are saying that you want accompanists to stay out of the thread, as this is a chance for them to hear what others want. And you are also urging people who don't want any backing to stay out of the discussion (since we already know what they want).
Those are sound ideas.
I will shut up, listen and learn.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
In response to the first question: silence
Donough is right - this is symptomatic you might say of backers who think that their aim is to be heard above everyone else...
Re comments about being 'on beat', ''in time' - this has to be a given anyway. If you can't do this much then....
Seriously -
You want to hear that they are listening to you and the tunes.
That they know when to stop (if they're totally at sea).
That they know the tune and are not just bluffing.
That they can take a hint (the amount of times I've played with people who are in the wrong key and sit there oblivious to the chords I'm bashing out on the box is frightening).
That they realise they're not a soloist.
Someone mentioned groove - yes, a good backer can add that.
Someone else said taking out a backing instrument at a 'serious' session was like taking out a gun...that's because playing with random backers is like Russian Roulette - with more bullets (chances are that it'll end in tears). I've done the 'obscure' tune strategy on occasion - play enough awkward tunes and perhaps whoever is 3-chord tricking may get discouraged. Or at least stop for that set.
Still, a good one is hard to beat at a session (last 3 tunes I've had were respectively exc bouz, piano, and bouz). In all cases they helped keep it together - esp piano which was a big-ish session (though with all *solid* players) in a really noisy pub.
Nuff said.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by continuo
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
1. Don't drown me out. I've only got a little instrument you know.
2. Do you have to put that F chord into every G (or is it D) tune? It sounded interesting and different - once.
3. You have several strings that could provide a drone. Doesn't mean you have to have them ringing all the time.
4. Don't speed up "cos it would be good for the crack". I'm already playing the tune as fast as I can. Even I could go faster if I were just playing chords.
5. Leave some space. If there are two of you, and the other one leaves some space, don't fill it. Less is more.
6. I might be the only one on here who prefers Shetland style dum-chick, a gentle but insistent pulse with a nice half-beat silence in between each dum and chick. So less of the DADGAD wall of sound and more of the sprightly moving bass & chord , tailored to the tune, for me.
7. No offence to any guitarists I've played with, you're all brilliant and most annoyingly can play at least one tune on mandolin better than I can. I warn you though, I will pick up your guitar and accompany you with my unique "Slim Dusty meets Bert Weedon on the Shetland ferry" style.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Bren
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Very good Bren
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Arty Mcglynn
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by eurbanjo
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Can't agree with 6. Boom-chick for me is terribly rigid and needs a really competent player with inventive chords.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by continuo
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Silence, or, "goodbye then".
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by pfft
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
well, you must admit max, we don't get too many of them down at the BHT, for which we are eternally grateful.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
An ability to count, as this saves whistles being smashed on floors.
An ability to keep time.
An ability to recognise, especially with slow airs, that no two people play airs identically. So therefore an ability to listen.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Don't tell us you back slow airs on the bodhrán, BB?
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Only play if you know the song AND the timing of it. I was playing in a jam once when a group of girl scouts came up and we started the whole, introduce the instruments and play them. When they introduced me on the fiddle, the leader had me play Orange Blossom Special for the girls. Now, at the best of times the rhythm on this song is difficult, that evening I had a guitarist trying to play with me, who didn't know the version of the song I was playing and so was hitting the wrong chords at the wrong times. Don't do this.
Make sure that you're playing the same version of a song, so if they're using c natural instead of c sharp don't put an A Major chord to back them up.
Really good rhythm, I have to be kept grounded, so I like a backer to keep me steady.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I really enjoy playing in E minor when there's a jumbo guitar to do those terrific chords - which shows I do sometimes listen to the backing instruments. Unfortunately there are very few of the old Harmony Sovereign sort of guitars around here now to do the big E minors and I just don't enjoy playing Eminor tunes the same if it is to the subtle tinkling of a bouzouki or a guitar with an identity crisis.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
One of my weekly sessions has no backers - or bangers for that matter. 100% melody instruments. Heaven!
Oh, and it's an English session, but with players experienced in other genres, so there’s always a generous amount of Irish mixed in with the English.
Trevor
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
1) Modally appropriate chords
2) Accurate timing
3) Volume appropriate to the size of the group
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Michael Eskin
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
1) Good general knowledge?
2) Useful fashion advice?
Do you think we should always get what we want???
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by tallulah
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Dead right on that last Julia. If we always got what we wanted we would all be monsters.
But surely you wouldn't take fashion advice from someone who would be seen out with a bodhran?
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Pingu, I play slow airs on a number of instruments. When I am backing I do what I like, because I know my judgement will be best.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Ok, so I'll add trust in yourself too. If you're gonna take a risk, risk it all, risk big. If you think something would fit, then do it. Maybe we are melody players, but without the rest of it, do you really have music? Is music melody or harmony? WIthout rhythm and chords and harmony the music is emptier. So go with your gut instincts as well as your sense of self-preservation so as not to tick off some overly egotistic melodician and have them ranting at you.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Musicfan,
sorry, that's crap.
Less is more.
Without Harmony, you have something called Irish music.
With harmony, you may have something very pleasing to the ear, but not traditional Irish....
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Ottery
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
yours,
overly egotistic melodician
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Ottery
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
To you. Irish music is not all melody. Sorry, but some of the best Irish music that I've heard has involved strong harmony from backup players.
yours,
overly harmonic fiddler
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
You know, I walked away from the computer and picked up my fiddle to play and to drain away any bad feelings. And thought a bit about what you said. I guess the best thing to figure is that one man's crap is another man's cream.
I don't like going anywhere and listening to any kind of music that only involves everything fighting for the melody and lead. It reminds me of singing in a women's chorus, way to many sopranas and not enough people to counter with harmony.
The same thing happens when I'm around to many melodicians. What can be soaring fiddle and flute riffs and jolly button lines just turns into a kind of cacophony that hurts my ears. I like order in music, not a lot but harmony helps with that. And there is no reason that someone should be relegated to the less is more backup style just because it's what floats someone else's boat.
So, along those same lines to the backers, don't play anything that would make anything more cacophonous. If anything, ground the melodicians, sometimes they are too full of themselves (or guiness) to remember their manners.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't know musicfan, to me what most backers do regarding harmony is makes the music is less ambigious chordwise. This makes the music more palatable for people who are more used to listening to contemporary music which is more chordbased, relative to raw trad which does not require and often benefits from being unaccompanied. With an exception of a few, I find that accompaniment takes away something sweet in the music. Worse still a lot of backers iron out the rhythm making for boring wallpaper music.
My favourite backers are Reg Hall, Alec Finn and Dennis Cahill.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Eldarion
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Like a good guitarist I'm still here just listening - just so you don't think the absence of my posting means I am not listening.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Donough
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I hate backers. It's a pointless diversion. That's not to say I don't love playing with really good strummers. Contradiction? Not at all. The point is that I like to have an equal footing with the people I play with, strummers or tune players. It's a give and take thing. Everyone in the ensemble should be influencing and affecting the sound, Listening and responding. All this talk of needing the strummers to be inoffensiveness is just so boring. What was it? "On the beat, in the key and not too loud?" If that's all you can manage, then shut up
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I personally prefer a sympathetic backing, if that doesn't sound too 'twee'.
A well played zook or citern takes some beating, or even a well played bodhran for that matter.
As long as it is not too overpowering and that it's clear that the accompanyist is listening, then I don't mind at all.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Thanks BegFfor initiating this discussion. As you see, like Donough, I am listening as well although unlike Donough, I am not a good guitarist. Oh, I play alright I suppose, but being good can be so boring. Not too much new I’m afraid but the information is certainly more organized.
By the way, well said Michael, the part about being on the beat and all!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ejsant
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I have forgotten how many times I have had some bad accompaniment and asked the culprit what key did we finish in.
They rarely know.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
And I dislike this divission of labour anyway. It's the subservience of it. I think the idea that the strummer is, at best, the servant of the tune player is ridiculous. If anything, the strummer has the advantage of not being contrained as much by the tune
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
See, that's my point, if they aren't getting paid to do it, they aren't accompanying you. You're collaborating. Everything in music is give and take, except for Bach, but then he's classical, not Irish.
What we choose to make of ITM is our business, whether we like it with lots of melody and no harmony in a less is more type attitude, or whether we like more harmony and more of a collaboration of efforts to make the music type attitude, it's ITM to us and ours.
Are we going to satisfy every purist that way? No, some people will always complain that you aren't doing it the way it's always been done (how very southern baptist of them, no?), they sometimes forget though, that ITM comes from the improvisational periods of the aural tradition.
Some itinerant fiddler(piper, whomever) played a tune this way and others heard it, and played it differently. The joys of ITM is that you aren't constrained by dots on a paper, the sad thing is that the "we've always done it this way" mindset, can be even more constraining then notes on a page. And if we treat guitarists, and other "backers" like they aren't important, then we're killing it too.
I think that as 'melody' players we are probably too full of ourselves, and we should stop and appreciate our 'backers/strummers' more.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I agree with Michael. We're all here to make music together, not be each other's servants. You could equally say "what do backers want to hear from melody players?", if you were so inclined. I play both melody and backing. When I'm backing, I like to hear the tunes played well, and consistently in rhythm because it makes my job so much easier. I hate having to battle to maintain the timing. That's something a melody player should be able to do already without having it provided for them. When I'm playing melody, I like to hear a backer play a solid consistent rhythm and not rush me or drag me back, otherwise it's incredibly annoying and distracting. I like to hear them playing chords and basslines that I'd either choose myself, or wish I were able to find whenever I'm backing. In other words, I'm fussy as hell. Of course, often it doesn't work out that way, playing either instrument, but hey, the buzz that happens at times when it does click is worth waiting for.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
That came out all wrong. The point I was trying to make was that when I'm backing, I have in mind what the melody player might want to hear from me *because* I play melody too, and vice versa. So it's a 2-way thing, spontaneously playing off each other's energy and musical ideas on the fly. It's not about backer = servant.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
That's it, it's an "unspoken 2-way understanding that each serves the other", so you're "serving" without being "subserviant". If you don't have that then the music suffers, I think.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don’t disagree with you Dow, and yes of course you could easily ask “what do backers want to hear from melody players” as you’ve proven by answering.
But’s that not what was asked.
I agree I hate when I’m asked to provide the rhythm, the rhythm should already be there.
However what was asked (and just as easily) was what do melody players want from backers.
The answers have been varied and interesting…..and I’d be especially interested in your answer as you play both.
And I agree with MG about inoffensive backing being boring, but I think certain words mean different things
to different people. I know MG mightn’t like if I started The Earl’s Chair with a Bm instead of a G, he said so before – this might be “offensive” to him. Others may be offended if it’s not square on the beat changing at the right place – others still find that as offensive as a metronome.
It’s just that words used to describe accompaniment, like sensitive, drive, inoffensive etc are said by everyone
but mean different things so it’s good to get more of a detailed description.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Cross post there - I see what you're saying.
I never feel subservient though when backing,
I doubt that many would.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Sorry, I think I probably posted my answer without thinking enough beforehand. I guess I looked at the question and thought "well when I play melody I want this and this and this... but, hang on, it's not as simple as that". But assuming that this is about "what do I like when I hear it", then I'd say the following:
1) I don't like to hear physical tension in a backer's playing. You can immediately hear the effect that wrist or forearm tension has in the sound and I don't like it. It affects the tone, and the rhythm too. Then again, I don't like sloppy-sounding backing where the player is so relaxed they're out of rhythm.
2) I like to hear swung backing for most tunes. It sounds more relaxed and grooved up. There's nothing worse than listening to - or watching - a guitarist strum even eighth-notes for a reel or jig. There's no dance in it at all, and it effectively bars any possibilities for a melody player to play in a danceable rhythm. I'd even rather hear it too swung than not at all. I've found that "too swung" is not as damaging to the rhythm as "too straight".
3) I like to hear a backer who knows the tunes, and who can accent areas of the tune appropriately, as opposed to strumming some sort of set, formulaic, syncopated rhythm for every tune, yuck. Then again, sometimes I really enjoy a repeated riff set up as a sort of ostinato. Depends on my mood. I want the backer to know which mood I'm in.
4) I like to hear a backer play a mixture of bare power chords and triads. That balance is important. But sometimes I like to hear mad backing which is a bit jazzy, coloured with some 7ths and 9ths, especially in hornpipey or barndancey tunes, and some reels etc.
5) I like to hear a backer "push" the tune occasionally, and by that I mean not "push" in the sense of rushing, but finding chord progressions that work really well but are slightly out of the ordinary, and showcase the tune in a different light, giving you the shivers and goose bumps. But sometimes I want the backer *not* to push it. I just want to hear something bare and basic like a drone. It depends on the tune, and on my mood at the time. I want the backer to recognise that mood and respond accordingly.
6) If I start a tune at a certain tempo, sometimes I don't want the backer to change it, and I'm distracted if the beat is pushed or dragged slightly adrift of what I had in mind. However, sometimes I want the backer to pick up the rhythm and push me a little bit to boost my energy levels. I want the backer to be able to tell which of these I want by mindreading me.
7) I want the backer to know which tune I'm about to go into and respond, and if I shout a key, I want them to know I meant "E minor", when I said "B minor" by mistake.
Okay this is getting silly, but you get the picture. I'm a bit fussy, but not as fussy as I'm making out here!
At least, that's what I'm *saying*. If you mindread me you might find out otherwise...
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I like it !!
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
unless you're in the mood for me not to like it !
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't know, am I? You tell me
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
"I never feel subservient though when backing,
I doubt that many would".
I doubt it also. However, I feel that some melody players would like to have us feel that way.
Meh. In their dreams! Go get me a pint thou melody-playing SLAVE! Hahahaha!
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Yes !
No !
I don't know ?
Sheidt, fcuk fcuk fcuk !
Don't hit me !
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I'm hitting you *in my own head*. You're getting the hang of this. Want to come and play some tunes?
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Is that kind of a yeah but no deal Dow?
As an aside, Little Britain is now available in the US through BBC America.
I think the melody players have a much easier time of it.
Deb.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
You reckon? When I'm backing for a melody player, I want the following from that melody player:
1) I want them to tell me which keys and modes they're going to be playing in for the whole set *in advance*, so I can be lazy and set the capo in one place and leave it there and just change my chord shapes for the different keys. But sometimes I just want them to play and not tell me anything so it keeps me on my toes. I want them to understand when to involve me in their decision-making process and when not.
2) I want them always to shout out an exact key (specifying mode *for each part, mind*, and odd accidentals that may appear), about 3 or 4 bars before changing tunes so I can quickly plan ahead and maybe change my capo, or do a sort of tacky breakdown riff and have a quick sip of my drink while I slip the capo off with my other hand. These things need planning. I want them never to shout out a key because it makes it look as though I need them to help me with my keys, and that's just irritating, cuz what the faq do melody-players know about keys?! Sheesh.
3) I want them to admit that it's not the tune that's amazingly well-written by Paddy O'Brien or Junior Crehan, it's the chords I'm putting to it that *make* it sound well-written. It doesn't have to be to my face. I can mindread you know.
4) I want melody players to play at a steady pace unless I want them to play fast, in which case it's going to have to be them who speed me up so that they can't then turn round and say that I was pushing the beat.
5) I want to hear melody players play nice and swingy, because it means I can relax more and give the tune more space to breathe, and it means that I'm not concentrating so much on trying to keep time with their crap rhythm that I don't have time to think about what to do with the chords. I want them to supply me with solid rhythm because playing the tune's not my bloody job. But then I want them to damn well keep time with me.
6) I want to hear melody players do some cool variations which I can respond to by changing my rhythm or harmonies appropriately, so we can all kid ourselves that we sound tight.
7) If a melody player mindreads me and realises that I cannit bloody mindread, and that I don't know that they're going to play the tune again, then I want them to shout *AGAIN!* loudly and clearly.
8) When a set is about to finish, I want the melody player to make that clear by shouting or using body language. Then I can go ahead and do a cool ending cadence and everyone can have that satisfying feeling of: "ah what a great, nice, rounded set of tunes". If not, then obviously I'm just going to carry on playing, and they can glare at me all they like but it's still their fault. They're the ones deciding what tunes to play and how many times to play each, not me. I'm just a backer.
But most of all I want this:
9) I want melody players to stop doing this annoying thing which you think is really funny but it drives me insane - stop playing your show-off stupid wacky tunes just because you know they're hard for backers and you're trying deliberately to confuse me. It's not clever and it's not funny!
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Ya'll don't give warning when you're ending tunes? 'Round here, whoever kicked it off calls off 'last time round' or 'one more time' in order to warn people that they're gonna quit. Or, some of them stick their foot up in the air, if they aren't comfortable talking. That does look kinda funny, but at least it warns everyone that the end is coming.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by musicfan
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Right. That was no but yeah but no....
"Again, with feeling!!"
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Fascinating stuff. I've been reading along and paying close attention, and sent this discussion along to some other playing pals. Thanks to all! And good stuff, Dow, thanks for that!
I enjoy several types of 'backing' and I look for a mix of them to keep me on edge <GG> ...
One is in a session with confident, veteran melody players who will listen to one another and conspire to play variations that I can accent with chords or rhytmic variations.
Another is (more common) a session with a number of players who are still just reciting the tunes and can be derailed by an unfamiliar melodic twist, ornament, chord or rhythm. It's really great fun to underplay and support the flow for these!
The next is to play in small sessions or ensembles (I LOVE our trio!) in which equality among the players is a given, and we all listen very closely to make some uncluttered and maybe even graceful music.
John Doyle just played here with Liz Carroll, and in the next couple of sessions, some of our young and impressionable guitar players went all Doyle on us. Some of the melodists explained to them that John gets to play that way because he is in a duet, and that that is perfectly appropriate. John actually does play a bit differently in sessions, when I've heard him, and that's appropriate too.
But, I'm chiming out now. Melodists have the right-of-way here and I'll go back to soaking up what else is to be said.
Many thanks,
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Musicfan has many interesting points, as does my old mucker M.G.
Those who say there should be no backing probably are Southern Babtists, originally from Ballymena in Norn Ireland.
Put it this way. Set M.G down and get him to play a few tunes solo on a fiddle, and it may sound lovely and will attract the interest of the discerning punter. Put me beside him, and you have a session, as I will be enhancing M.G's dulcet notes. And you will attract the discerning ear, and also may win a few future converts.
Let's face it, Frankie Kennedy was 18 when he asked me to teach him the tin whistle, he was a neighbour, so we can have late converts.
If we just have melody, it lacks something.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
idiot
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
What then does the strummer strum to if not a melody player michael?
More strummers?
A whole room full of strummers strumming along to what? the other strummers???
What did you call the last poster?
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I've been in quite a few sessions where there have been 'only' melody players, it's nice, but there seems to be that something missing.
A strummer.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
A room full of strummers? Not my cup of tea, but guitar players way out number us diddlers in the world. You think a guitar can't play music on it's own?
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
And I've thought about the argument whether strummers or no strummers and it doesn't come down to this at all. It's about whether you have musicians listening and playing off each other, or people doing their own thing and people being their servants. Regardles of whether you tune or strum
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
In my college daze, I had several friends who were music majors and were always saying things like “neopolitan seventh”, “second inversion” (or was it “perversion”?), “homophonic” (not to be confused with “homophobic”, which hadn’t been coined at the time) and “sense of ensemble”. I gradually picked up some of their strange dialect and learned to especially appreciate that last one. It’s hard to define, but when you play with a group of folks who have it, it can lift the music from Fun to Sublime. It’s like… I mean, it’s sort of … Oh, crap! It’s hard to talk about.
Anyway, I think that particular sensitivity is the most important characteristic of an accompanist. I think I feel it the most when I’m trying to accompany an unfamiliar tune. I don’t know anything in advance, so I’m reduced to the bare essentials of accompaniment. I’ll start *very* simply and let the tune carry me along until I feel the groove and start subtly punctuating it. The challenge cranks up the sensitivity and opens up possibilities for some really cool stuff that I wouldn’t have come to with a familiar tune. Or maybe I crash and burn, but it’s worth the ride.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
good on you. The best diddles are a bit of a roller coaster, on the edge etc. Forget this "On the beat and in the key and not too much volume" nonsense
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Why don't you have some balls Michael and say what you really feel, you supercillious twit.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Wow, just read Dow's last post... he's off his medication again isn't he.
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Did I say twit? I thought this site had rules about insulting people, and showing tolerance? Months ago my old mucker M.G was threatening to kick my head in, now he is openly insulting me.
It must be great being innocent.
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
A better question: What do melody players NOT want to hear from backers?
Answer: No clashing chords and no clashing rhythms (note we didn't say "wrong chords" or "wrong rhythms"). All further discussion is tossage.
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by laridee
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Therefore it's down to choices michael.
Strummers have made a concious decision to be strummers, no one pointed the finger at them and said "you will be a strummer" and " you will faithfully follow the music"
Is it that they wont play melody? again, their choice, perhaps they can't, (another issue).
I would, however, prefer no 'backing' to bad backing, given a choice.
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I think everyone would prefer no backing to bad backing.
And again it’s “one man’s poison…”,
To some the on the beat, obvious changes, is good backing, where others feel like getting sick, and vice versa for the seat of the pants, take the risk, maybe crash and burn type backing.
I think it’s refreshing to hear that there are those out there who want more than a metronome playing chords.
Now if we were crashing and burning all the time then there could be issues !
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by BegF
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Curlew, you miss the point. I don't want to be "backed". I don't want people at the back of me. I want to people to play with me, side by side
# Posted on July 15th 2005 by ...
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I don't think I have missed the point.
So perhaps we should call it accompanyment. The guitarist or whatever beside you playing chords to your melody. You are equals in a session.
It's still backing, unless of course the guitarist shoots of into a profusion of chords and 'you' have to find a tune that fits, thats more like equality.
At the end of the day it's how you choose to perceive the wording.
# Posted on July 16th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
Perhaps they should be referred to as 'non melody players'
NMPs.
# Posted on July 16th 2005 by curlew
Re: What do melody players want to hear from backers ?
I’m still confused with Michael Gill’s contradiction (I’m a bit on the slow side)
“I hate backers. It's a pointless diversion. That's not to say I don't love playing with really good strummers.”
And also the hierarchy thread and this “I like to have an equal footing with the people I play with, strummers or tune players”
Is it you believe there is a hierarchy of instruments but as long as they are going to be there then they should be doing more than just existing inoffensively ?
# Posted on July 18th 2005 by BegF