Forgive me if I've overlooked this throughout my involvement in the music, but there seem to be very few women lilters around, even fewer recorded. The only half-decent reference I could google was this:
I used not to like lilting and would have been slightly embarrassed if anyone caught me listening to it, as it can sound comical. I now appreciate lilting as a real art form and would love to hear someone do it (properly) at a session.
But I'd like to be disproved but it seems to be (or have been) a male preserve. And I don't mean a bit of lilting as part of a regular (verbose) song. I mean lilting a set of reels or jigs.
I believe there was a story in "The Northern Fiddler" about somebody comparing "Sligo style" fiddling to Donegal Lilt and mentioned his mother as a major exponent.
I also remember reading something about women lilting as it wasn't "womanly" to wield an instument, particulary one that required the elbows to be raised. Consided to be an indecent posture, &c....
Still, I don't remember much lilt at all, much less by women.
That Scottish bizniss is "mouth music" and tho' it serves the same purpose, is completely different. It evolved out of a "sol fedge" (sp?) for piping where the syllables were supposed to indicate the ornaments as well as the note. "Heepirumbo" sounds like Mouth Music phonetics. Lilters actually do say "Diddledy" a lot.
There was a woman lilter at a session I was at on Sunday (at the Priddy Folk Festival in Somerset). She was grand at it - as well as being a superb song-singer - and I think I heard someone say she came second in the All-Ireland last year.
I believe diddlers at poor rural dances in southern England were nearly all women. Isn't there a diddling song something about the diddling woman getting drunk and being brought home on a shutter? Disgraceful, and just what you would expect of the English! i suppose a women might be allowed to sing while she works - as long as she shows proper restraint?
".....In fact, they probably invented it." That would be Wauking Songs ( wauking,maybe) women used to sing about life, love, and other topics of ridicule while "sizing" tweed". At one point that would stand in a circle and pass the cloth over their heads.
These songs were supposed to keep the rhythm going.
But they actually are songs, with words, as opposed to Mouth Music or Lilt. This might be a good subject for you to do you paper on. Let me know what you find out.
I'm sure women understood innately and universally that singing dance tunes while feeding their babies and washing their floors just wasn't ladylike. It's unthinkable that it might ever have happened. Anybody for a scone? Fresh out of the oven!
"other topics of ridicule" ?? Hmmm..me thinks I hear a bit of chauvinist coming out there boxorox. And by the way Mouth music was sung by men as well but most scottish men preferred their pipes to lilting. (In every sense of the word. Hehehehe) As for the English reference..don't be so anti-British. Diddling in the proper English language had nothing to do with music and those types of women were usually found on the street anyway which would maybe help you understand why they would be drunk as well. Lilting on the other hand was used commonly in English folk music. Haven't you every listened to Maddy Prior in Steeleye Span lilting along with the instruments in parts of the songs? Lilting is common all over the globe. Try expanding your horizons and listen to a few other countries folk songs and you'll find some lilting of some sort in all of them. It is not limited to Ireland though Ireland appears to have made it into an art form and has become recognized for it.
Chavanism is where you find it Ms F&I, and it looks like I found it. (Pot, Kettle. Kettle ,Pot.) Read my comment again.
Life and love are the topics of Ridicule. The women are the Ridiculers.
When yr done sermonizing us filty, mysogynistic, parochial b^st^rds.; "Try expanding your horizons" and read this whole discussion for meaning instead of just window shopping for insults.
Kerri, dorlin', If you have any of that tea and scones left, I believe I need a cuppa, don't get up, I'll just pop it in the micro-wave.....
I callously assumed the question was specifically about Irish Lilters and was trying to forestall a highjack with my pedantry, little knowing I was pulling my own highjack. (Cigar, anyone?)
Anyway in answer to your question. No, I haven't heard Maddy Prior in Steeleye Span lilting along with the instruments in parts of songs.
I have a few old 331/3's of Steeleye Span, soon as I can round up something to play them on, I'll give them another listen.
A bit harsh? Blow me mate, I could have gone down with that one. I'll lay off ragging you from now on. In fact, after reading it I thought, I'd just keep my comments to myself in future. The entire post wasn't referenced only to yours by the way. I addressed an Anti-British comment further up in the thread (which would also indicate that I have read the whole thread I might add) concerning diddling. And one other item of interest, I understood your comment concerning "other topics of ridicule" but it seems to me you misunderstood mine. I was referring to the fact that you implied only woman make those topics items of ridicule. I know more men that ridicule them than women..but then I have more men friends than women so I could be wrong. Anyway, enough about that.
I'll have to dig out my old Steeleye Span CD's and get back to you on the ones that have lilting on them..also for anyone that's interested, some excellent examples of mouth music you might want to listen to would be: Sileas, Catherine Ann MacPhee, and the McKenzie sisters.
I'm afraid I missed the BBC broadcast. I'll have to try and catch them next time. By the way, I am in the process of getting some Sean Nos singing and lilting on Jim Dorans site I believe it's called World Fiddle Music if you're interested..
Women Lilters
Women Lilters
Forgive me if I've overlooked this throughout my involvement in the music, but there seem to be very few women lilters around, even fewer recorded. The only half-decent reference I could google was this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/schools/11_16/music/traditions/pdf/series1/notes02.pdf
I used not to like lilting and would have been slightly embarrassed if anyone caught me listening to it, as it can sound comical. I now appreciate lilting as a real art form and would love to hear someone do it (properly) at a session.
But I'd like to be disproved but it seems to be (or have been) a male preserve. And I don't mean a bit of lilting as part of a regular (verbose) song. I mean lilting a set of reels or jigs.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Women Lilters
you should hear grace kelly lilting, shes a sister of john joes, shes won the all ireland a few times lilting.
she also has a solo tin whistle album coming out soon. its going to be fabulous theres a great line up on it
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by whysthat
Re: Women Lilters
Listen to Eilidh Shaw's Heepirumbo. The title is some sylables she lilts. Scottish, not Irish, bet great all the same
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by ...
Re: Women Lilters
i think seamus fays cd has archive material of him lilting in duet with his mother.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by flanum
Re: Women Lilters
I believe Cape Breton singer Mary Jane Lamond can lilt perfectly.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by slainte
Re: Women Lilters
Lots of things seem to have been a male preserve that were not. History has a bad habit of overlooking the weaker sex.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Women Lilters
Calm down Kerri. Why don't you just pop into your kitchen and make all these gentlemn a nice cup of tea.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Women Lilters
I believe there was a story in "The Northern Fiddler" about somebody comparing "Sligo style" fiddling to Donegal Lilt and mentioned his mother as a major exponent.
I also remember reading something about women lilting as it wasn't "womanly" to wield an instument, particulary one that required the elbows to be raised. Consided to be an indecent posture, &c....
Still, I don't remember much lilt at all, much less by women.
That Scottish bizniss is "mouth music" and tho' it serves the same purpose, is completely different. It evolved out of a "sol fedge" (sp?) for piping where the syllables were supposed to indicate the ornaments as well as the note. "Heepirumbo" sounds like Mouth Music phonetics. Lilters actually do say "Diddledy" a lot.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
There was a woman lilter at a session I was at on Sunday (at the Priddy Folk Festival in Somerset). She was grand at it - as well as being a superb song-singer - and I think I heard someone say she came second in the All-Ireland last year.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by quinn
Re: Women Lilters
I believe diddlers at poor rural dances in southern England were nearly all women. Isn't there a diddling song something about the diddling woman getting drunk and being brought home on a shutter? Disgraceful, and just what you would expect of the English! i suppose a women might be allowed to sing while she works - as long as she shows proper restraint?
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Women Lilters
I think that's a different type of diddle. ;->
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
It stands to reason that if it was frowned upon for women to play instruments, they would resort to mouth music. In fact, they probably invented it.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Oh, and here's your tea lads, can I get you anything else?
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Women Lilters
None for me thanks. Kerri.
Let me know what you find out.
".....In fact, they probably invented it." That would be Wauking Songs ( wauking,maybe) women used to sing about life, love, and other topics of ridicule while "sizing" tweed". At one point that would stand in a circle and pass the cloth over their heads.
These songs were supposed to keep the rhythm going.
But they actually are songs, with words, as opposed to Mouth Music or Lilt. This might be a good subject for you to do you paper on.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
I'm sure women understood innately and universally that singing dance tunes while feeding their babies and washing their floors just wasn't ladylike. It's unthinkable that it might ever have happened. Anybody for a scone? Fresh out of the oven!
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Women Lilters
"other topics of ridicule" ?? Hmmm..me thinks I hear a bit of chauvinist coming out there boxorox. And by the way Mouth music was sung by men as well but most scottish men preferred their pipes to lilting. (In every sense of the word. Hehehehe) As for the English reference..don't be so anti-British. Diddling in the proper English language had nothing to do with music and those types of women were usually found on the street anyway which would maybe help you understand why they would be drunk as well. Lilting on the other hand was used commonly in English folk music. Haven't you every listened to Maddy Prior in Steeleye Span lilting along with the instruments in parts of the songs? Lilting is common all over the globe. Try expanding your horizons and listen to a few other countries folk songs and you'll find some lilting of some sort in all of them. It is not limited to Ireland though Ireland appears to have made it into an art form and has become recognized for it.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Ms_fire_and_ice
Re: Women Lilters
Chavanism is where you find it Ms F&I, and it looks like I found it. (Pot, Kettle. Kettle ,Pot.) Read my comment again.
Life and love are the topics of Ridicule. The women are the Ridiculers.
When yr done sermonizing us filty, mysogynistic, parochial b^st^rds.; "Try expanding your horizons" and read this whole discussion for meaning instead of just window shopping for insults.
Kerri, dorlin', If you have any of that tea and scones left, I believe I need a cuppa, don't get up, I'll just pop it in the micro-wave.....
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
That may have been a bit harsh.
I callously assumed the question was specifically about Irish Lilters and was trying to forestall a highjack with my pedantry, little knowing I was pulling my own highjack. (Cigar, anyone?)
Anyway in answer to your question. No, I haven't heard Maddy Prior in Steeleye Span lilting along with the instruments in parts of songs.
I have a few old 331/3's of Steeleye Span, soon as I can round up something to play them on, I'll give them another listen.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
Don't try saying double diddle late at night.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Women Lilters
As if by magic, there's some female lilting on the BBC website at the moment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/genres/folk/aod.shtml?nangaidheal/caithream_mon
It's about 48 minutes through the programme.
But hurry! It'll be gone by tomorrow!
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by JerryH
Re: Women Lilters
Sure, I'll take a cigar, boxo, thanks.
# Posted on July 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Women Lilters
A bit harsh? Blow me mate, I could have gone down with that one. I'll lay off ragging you from now on. In fact, after reading it I thought, I'd just keep my comments to myself in future. The entire post wasn't referenced only to yours by the way. I addressed an Anti-British comment further up in the thread (which would also indicate that I have read the whole thread I might add) concerning diddling. And one other item of interest, I understood your comment concerning "other topics of ridicule" but it seems to me you misunderstood mine. I was referring to the fact that you implied only woman make those topics items of ridicule. I know more men that ridicule them than women..but then I have more men friends than women so I could be wrong. Anyway, enough about that.
I'll have to dig out my old Steeleye Span CD's and get back to you on the ones that have lilting on them..also for anyone that's interested, some excellent examples of mouth music you might want to listen to would be: Sileas, Catherine Ann MacPhee, and the McKenzie sisters.
# Posted on July 18th 2005 by Ms_fire_and_ice
Re: Women Lilters
I think the problem is that we were taught to read between the lines, and sometimes there really isn't anything there, just white space.
Did you catch the BBC braodcast. sounded like 2 lilters. Hard to tell on those 2" speakers.
I think life and love are fair game for anybody...Laugh or cry.
# Posted on July 20th 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: Women Lilters
I'm afraid I missed the BBC broadcast. I'll have to try and catch them next time. By the way, I am in the process of getting some Sean Nos singing and lilting on Jim Dorans site I believe it's called World Fiddle Music if you're interested..
# Posted on July 21st 2005 by Ms_fire_and_ice
Re: Women Lilters
catha rony
# Posted on July 23rd 2005 by daisy cornish