"We have a class of Irish airs, each phrase of which consists of the unusual number of five bars. To this class belong Bunting's air "The Pretty Red Girl," known in Munster as "The Red Haired Man's wife", "Drahareen-o- machree" and many others. Most of them are slow tunes; but a few like the "The Funny Tailor"(3/8 time) are quick. Some would perhaps reduce tunes like this to 6/8 time, by doubling the lenghth of every fifth bar, but to do so in the present case, would be simply to falsify the tune. The set dance was adapted to it in the way in which I give it here."
This is from P.W.Joyce's 'Ancient Music of Ireland'.
Has anybody ever come across tunes in 3/8 time ?
I know there are strange timings in Shetland and even Geordieland so presumably Ireland too, but have obviously not lasted into the present day.
There are also some funny old English tunes in 3/8. Bowman's Minuet, for instance. (Jamie Knowles "Northern Frisk" Number 98 - but this book is out of print).
How does it change your playing whether its written in 3/8 or 3/4. If it is played as a slow 3/8 as the Banks (above) would be it would be even slower than a waltz tempo. Obviously I am assuming that when the tune is changed to 3/4 the note durations are altered accordingly.
It is much faster than a waltz, I have put it in the tunes section but it will only accept 6/8 time. Possibly the only thing to do is to rewrite the notation on ABC Navigator and listen to it there. However the speed should be around 20 to hear it without being muddled.
As I understand it "Banks of Shannon" should be played slowly - it's an Air.
My point was more about how you could play a 3/4 piece fast enough to make it indistinguishable from a 3/8 piece.
The 3/8 is only 11/2 beats to the bar, the accent being on the first so in fact at normal speed would be a lot faster. As I said if you listen to it it's difficult to hear at any normal dance speed
If you speed up a waltz to the same tempo both the accent and rhythm are not the same. Airs are a law unto themselves because they shouldn't really be in a set time. In times gone by they were sung very freely which is why there are some difficult scansions in the modern versions.
At one point in time bourrées (2/4 & 3/8) were part of one of those passing dance/music crazes that swept the world Europe, Eire/Ireland and Alba/Scotland included in the wave ~ and beyond...a cultural tsunami...
Did you try entering this with your ABCs? If you look up some of the Balkan items that have been added to the site you'll see other meters than just the basics allowed in the drop down menu when you first enter a tune... You might enter it under 'Waltz' and then change the meter to M: 3/8...?
OK, I've changed it to waltz time, but I can't seem to be able to change the time signature. Obviously Jeremy has to change the sheet music and download facility. What do I do now?
I seem to have an unexpected familiarity with 3/8 time, probably from playing Bourees, as Gallopede says. But if it's not familiar to you, then it's strange, yes? I came across a disclaimer on a German website about 9/8 time, saying not only was it not fabricated/composed recently, but she (the page author) had seen people dance to it! Astonishing! She was talking about Byker Hill (the song - and dance) - I'm not sure she had ever come across any slip jigs. It just bemused me a little.
Strange Time
Strange Time
"We have a class of Irish airs, each phrase of which consists of the unusual number of five bars. To this class belong Bunting's air "The Pretty Red Girl," known in Munster as "The Red Haired Man's wife", "Drahareen-o- machree" and many others. Most of them are slow tunes; but a few like the "The Funny Tailor"(3/8 time) are quick. Some would perhaps reduce tunes like this to 6/8 time, by doubling the lenghth of every fifth bar, but to do so in the present case, would be simply to falsify the tune. The set dance was adapted to it in the way in which I give it here."
This is from P.W.Joyce's 'Ancient Music of Ireland'.
Has anybody ever come across tunes in 3/8 time ?
I know there are strange timings in Shetland and even Geordieland so presumably Ireland too, but have obviously not lasted into the present day.
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Strange Time
Yes, but not Irish ones. Lots of French Bourees are in 3/8. See http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/562/comments.
There are also some funny old English tunes in 3/8. Bowman's Minuet, for instance. (Jamie Knowles "Northern Frisk" Number 98 - but this book is out of print).
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Strange Time
See "Banks of the Shannon".at http://www.oldmusicproject.com/OneilsAirsSongs.html. It's in 3/8.
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by LowProfile
Re: Strange Time
How does it change your playing whether its written in 3/8 or 3/4. If it is played as a slow 3/8 as the Banks (above) would be it would be even slower than a waltz tempo. Obviously I am assuming that when the tune is changed to 3/4 the note durations are altered accordingly.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Donough
Re: Strange Time
It is much faster than a waltz, I have put it in the tunes section but it will only accept 6/8 time. Possibly the only thing to do is to rewrite the notation on ABC Navigator and listen to it there. However the speed should be around 20 to hear it without being muddled.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Strange Time
As I understand it "Banks of Shannon" should be played slowly - it's an Air.
My point was more about how you could play a 3/4 piece fast enough to make it indistinguishable from a 3/8 piece.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Donough
Re: Strange Time
The 3/8 is only 11/2 beats to the bar, the accent being on the first so in fact at normal speed would be a lot faster. As I said if you listen to it it's difficult to hear at any normal dance speed
If you speed up a waltz to the same tempo both the accent and rhythm are not the same. Airs are a law unto themselves because they shouldn't really be in a set time. In times gone by they were sung very freely which is why there are some difficult scansions in the modern versions.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Time on another swing: bourrées à trois temps
At one point in time bourrées (2/4 & 3/8) were part of one of those passing dance/music crazes that swept the world Europe, Eire/Ireland and Alba/Scotland included in the wave ~ and beyond...a cultural tsunami...
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by ceolachan
M: 3/8 ~ not so strange time
Did you try entering this with your ABCs? If you look up some of the Balkan items that have been added to the site you'll see other meters than just the basics allowed in the drop down menu when you first enter a tune... You might enter it under 'Waltz' and then change the meter to M: 3/8...?
Most recent first:
7/8 - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/4706
11/8 - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/3159
In some cases, L: 1/8 being the given, folks have just written out and barred for the mixed meter tune, though not always correctly beamed/grouped:
7/8 - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2582
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by ceolachan
Re: Strange Time
OK, I've changed it to waltz time, but I can't seem to be able to change the time signature. Obviously Jeremy has to change the sheet music and download facility. What do I do now?
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Strange Time
I play loads of slow airs on the mandolin, but unfortunately I couldn't tell 2/4 time from 3/8 time as it means nothing to me.
A bit useless this thread then, but well, I like to keep in touch, and practice my typing.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Strange Time
I seem to have an unexpected familiarity with 3/8 time, probably from playing Bourees, as Gallopede says. But if it's not familiar to you, then it's strange, yes? I came across a disclaimer on a German website about 9/8 time, saying not only was it not fabricated/composed recently, but she (the page author) had seen people dance to it! Astonishing! She was talking about Byker Hill (the song - and dance) - I'm not sure she had ever come across any slip jigs. It just bemused me a little.
# Posted on July 12th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
3/8 Time
This first part is what happens during your initial entries for a new tune on site here:
X: 1
T: ~
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: Waltz
K: ~
Here's what you need to add if you want to change something, such as 'meter', just before your ABCs and included in he box with them, that 'M: 3/8':
M:3/8
|: ~ your ABCs ~ :|
That works with other more complex mixed rhythms. It should come out in the final wash as:
X: 1
T: ~
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: Waltz
K: ~
M: 3/8
|: ~ ABCs ~ :|
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by ceolachan
Re: Strange Time
C, Thanks.
# Posted on July 13th 2005 by Ian Stevenson