String length and gauge, body depth and set-up all contribute to the sound and playability.
You can buy long-bodied violins - in fact a large fiddle can be longer than a small viola - so you can choose your size - but DO get strings to fit the size you've chosen.
If you put standard violin strings on a viola that is longer than a fiddle and tune them up to concert pitch tuning (A440), then those strings will be at a tension higher than their design specification. This means that they will wear quicker, are more likely to break (especially the E and A), and the fiddle bridge, belly, neck and other parts will be under a loading higher than the maker intended. The higher tension of the strings and the higher loading on the instrument will make it feel tighter and less resonant, and, incidentally, the player will have to exert more finger pressure on the strings, which will be uncomfortable and tiring over a period of time.
MM, you imply that a viola-size fiddle would be easier for you to play on than a fiddle in view of your large hands. I disagree. There are many fiddle players, both in folk and classical, with thick fingers. I'm one myself, having thick fingers from a lifetime of cello-playing. Thick fingers are usually stronger than thin ones and are quite capable of moving as fast, if not faster. The only thing you may have to work on to a greater extent than players with thin fingers is intonation. It can be awkward in the early stages to get that C# close enough up to the D to be in tune without making the D too sharp, but the trick is relaxation of the hand and fingers so that you can move the 3rd finger (on the D) sufficiently out of the way to make room for the 2nd finger on the C#. Note that even the thinnest of fingers have to do this when playing up near the dusty end of the fingerboard in classical music, so it's nothing unusual. In fact, in the higher positions a violinist will often slide one finger between two adjacent notes rather than use two fingers.
However, would you consider learning the viola, with its CGDA tuning? It has its own special tone-colour and a depth of tone that is very useful in sessions. On a full-size viola you'd certainly have all the space you need on the fingerboard. The only apparent drawback is you'll have to learn to use the higher positions up the fingerboard because there's no longer an E string to play in the first position. In fact it doesn't take all that long to get used to high position work (viola players have to do it all the time), and it's good for the soul anyway.
And you'll also become a life-long friend of Mr Gill
To digress: Instead of putting fiddle strings on a viola it is a much more practicable proposition to do the reverse and convert a fiddle to a viola setup by putting viola strings on it and tuning it as a viola. This is usually done if a child or small adult wants to play a viola and finds it difficult to cope with the viola's extra size, and the cost of a genuine small viola isn't attractive. In fact, you don't necessarily need to get a full set of viola strings to do this conversion - just take off the E, relocate the A to where the E was, and do similarly for the lower strings. Then finally all you need to do is to put a viola C where the fiddle G was. I'd recommend that you get a heavy gauge viola C (also known as "hard" or "stark") because the standard C on the reduced length of the fiddle will be too floppy; the higher tension of the heavy C is better. A fiddle set up like this (CGDA) will probably feel more resonant than its original setup, but although it will be at viola pitch it won't have the same tonal qualities as a true viola, because the volume of the body cavity isn't large enough. But it's ok for the purpose intended. Such a converted fiddle would get funny looks in a classical orchestra, but I think it would be ok in a session in combination with real fiddles to give a bit of extra depth to the fiddle sound, especially when playing an octave lower - you've got that extra 5th below for those low notes.
I agree that putting fiddle strings on the viola might not be too good for the instrument. According to Max Mockel, who made several detailed observations about the constuction and layout of the violin, the E-string alone puts around 9 kg of pressure on a normal sized fiddle (more or less depending on type of string, whether it's tuned in concert pitch or not, etc.) with the total string tension over 28 kg. and if the strings were forced to stretch even tighter, the amount of pressure on the instrument would be excessive. I agree with Trevor, a viola with the CDGA tuning can really add alot to a session!
Mary Lea plays viola in Bare Necessities. Not ITM, of course, but English Country dance tunes instead. Playing high, she can do fiddle stuff, and low, she almost sounds like a cello, and can play some bass lines. http://www.sover.net/~marylea/bnhome.htm
Their pianist, BTW, is the one who played on Ken Burn's Civil War series.
I have a friend who converted a viola to a 5 string [fiddle] instrument -- it's tuned "cgdae"... she has the best of both worlds and her classical violin training allows her to get the most from this "pseudo-fiddle." She draws all sorts of questions from fiddle players and her ability to play in lower registers is really a unexpected, haunting sound fromt he fiddler...
my mate, 'big dave' may have some advice on this ( _if he still posts on this site . . . )
a pro viola player, playing fiddle on the trad _the interlectual gentle 'giant' of greenwich in south london, who inspired me to write a tune after him _a D major reel, not yet posted (as i don't know how . . . )
I sometimes wonder about the 'big hands' thing - many good players have big hands (long and broad), but not necessarily broad fingertips (broad as in : point you fingertips toward your face, nails at the top - thickness from top to bottom). If that crucial measurement is not unusually large, good hand posture on the neck shouldn't present any problems. That's just a guide, of course. My hands are fairly small, but that measurement is big in comparison.
A technical tip if you're going to put viola strings on a fiddle: use short viola strings, the sort that are intended to be used on fiddles or the smaller violas, because when winding the string onto the peg you don't want too much of the bare metal of the string on the peg - it can damage the string.
Fiddle strings on a viola
Fiddle strings on a viola
Can I put a set of fiddle strings on a viola and tune it to GDAE ?
My hands are large and I think I could hit the notes more easily
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by Magherafelt Man
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
You can... but it's unlikely to sound good.
String length and gauge, body depth and set-up all contribute to the sound and playability.
You can buy long-bodied violins - in fact a large fiddle can be longer than a small viola - so you can choose your size - but DO get strings to fit the size you've chosen.
Talk to http://www.bridgeinstruments.com/index.html
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by tombliss
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
Why?
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by ...
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
If you put standard violin strings on a viola that is longer than a fiddle and tune them up to concert pitch tuning (A440), then those strings will be at a tension higher than their design specification. This means that they will wear quicker, are more likely to break (especially the E and A), and the fiddle bridge, belly, neck and other parts will be under a loading higher than the maker intended. The higher tension of the strings and the higher loading on the instrument will make it feel tighter and less resonant, and, incidentally, the player will have to exert more finger pressure on the strings, which will be uncomfortable and tiring over a period of time.
MM, you imply that a viola-size fiddle would be easier for you to play on than a fiddle in view of your large hands. I disagree. There are many fiddle players, both in folk and classical, with thick fingers. I'm one myself, having thick fingers from a lifetime of cello-playing. Thick fingers are usually stronger than thin ones and are quite capable of moving as fast, if not faster. The only thing you may have to work on to a greater extent than players with thin fingers is intonation. It can be awkward in the early stages to get that C# close enough up to the D to be in tune without making the D too sharp, but the trick is relaxation of the hand and fingers so that you can move the 3rd finger (on the D) sufficiently out of the way to make room for the 2nd finger on the C#. Note that even the thinnest of fingers have to do this when playing up near the dusty end of the fingerboard in classical music, so it's nothing unusual. In fact, in the higher positions a violinist will often slide one finger between two adjacent notes rather than use two fingers.
However, would you consider learning the viola, with its CGDA tuning? It has its own special tone-colour and a depth of tone that is very useful in sessions. On a full-size viola you'd certainly have all the space you need on the fingerboard. The only apparent drawback is you'll have to learn to use the higher positions up the fingerboard because there's no longer an E string to play in the first position. In fact it doesn't take all that long to get used to high position work (viola players have to do it all the time), and it's good for the soul anyway.
And you'll also become a life-long friend of Mr Gill
To digress: Instead of putting fiddle strings on a viola it is a much more practicable proposition to do the reverse and convert a fiddle to a viola setup by putting viola strings on it and tuning it as a viola. This is usually done if a child or small adult wants to play a viola and finds it difficult to cope with the viola's extra size, and the cost of a genuine small viola isn't attractive. In fact, you don't necessarily need to get a full set of viola strings to do this conversion - just take off the E, relocate the A to where the E was, and do similarly for the lower strings. Then finally all you need to do is to put a viola C where the fiddle G was. I'd recommend that you get a heavy gauge viola C (also known as "hard" or "stark") because the standard C on the reduced length of the fiddle will be too floppy; the higher tension of the heavy C is better. A fiddle set up like this (CGDA) will probably feel more resonant than its original setup, but although it will be at viola pitch it won't have the same tonal qualities as a true viola, because the volume of the body cavity isn't large enough. But it's ok for the purpose intended. Such a converted fiddle would get funny looks in a classical orchestra, but I think it would be ok in a session in combination with real fiddles to give a bit of extra depth to the fiddle sound, especially when playing an octave lower - you've got that extra 5th below for those low notes.
Trevor
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
I agree that putting fiddle strings on the viola might not be too good for the instrument. According to Max Mockel, who made several detailed observations about the constuction and layout of the violin, the E-string alone puts around 9 kg of pressure on a normal sized fiddle (more or less depending on type of string, whether it's tuned in concert pitch or not, etc.) with the total string tension over 28 kg. and if the strings were forced to stretch even tighter, the amount of pressure on the instrument would be excessive. I agree with Trevor, a viola with the CDGA tuning can really add alot to a session!
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by Fiddlekit
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
Mary Lea plays viola in Bare Necessities. Not ITM, of course, but English Country dance tunes instead. Playing high, she can do fiddle stuff, and low, she almost sounds like a cello, and can play some bass lines.
http://www.sover.net/~marylea/bnhome.htm
Their pianist, BTW, is the one who played on Ken Burn's Civil War series.
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by fluti31415
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
I have a friend who converted a viola to a 5 string [fiddle] instrument -- it's tuned "cgdae"... she has the best of both worlds and her classical violin training allows her to get the most from this "pseudo-fiddle." She draws all sorts of questions from fiddle players and her ability to play in lower registers is really a unexpected, haunting sound fromt he fiddler...
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by TCA_ASS
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
my mate, 'big dave' may have some advice on this ( _if he still posts on this site . . . )
a pro viola player, playing fiddle on the trad _the interlectual gentle 'giant' of greenwich in south london, who inspired me to write a tune after him _a D major reel, not yet posted (as i don't know how . . . )
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
I sometimes wonder about the 'big hands' thing - many good players have big hands (long and broad), but not necessarily broad fingertips (broad as in : point you fingertips toward your face, nails at the top - thickness from top to bottom). If that crucial measurement is not unusually large, good hand posture on the neck shouldn't present any problems. That's just a guide, of course. My hands are fairly small, but that measurement is big in comparison.
Jim
# Posted on June 18th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Fiddle strings on a viola
A technical tip if you're going to put viola strings on a fiddle: use short viola strings, the sort that are intended to be used on fiddles or the smaller violas, because when winding the string onto the peg you don't want too much of the bare metal of the string on the peg - it can damage the string.
Trevor
# Posted on June 20th 2005 by Trevor Jennings