Is it just me, or is it impossible for more than one guitarist to play in a session without sending the whole thing out of phase? I don't mean me, as in my guitar playing... I mean, is it just me who's thinking this... but really, I'm open to opinions on either one.
Unless you play alot with your "oponant", yes. Ensemble music is about finding and leaving space, both rythmically and harmoniucally. Very hard when you have 6 notes clattering away the whole tune long
I think it's difficult not to "clog up" the music with more than one guitar. I'm a guitarist myelf, and I ended up learning the mandolin for this very reason. If ever there's another guitarist at a session, I can switch to mando and play the melody instead of accompanyment. Also, for a guitarist, it's certainly a much smaller leap than learning the fiddle!
I like guitar played with sparse chording - like just octaves and fifths. Even two guitars playing that way can work. Michael's got a point about using too-full chords. They don't usually fit.
Guitar is my 1st instrument, if there is already a guitarist sitting in on a session I will never join in but will either watch, listen and learn or sit and play whistle (quietly 'cause I'm still learning). Until the other guitarist either goes for pint or the little boys room. If it's one thing I hate its pounding guitars, with sometimes the guitarists not listening to what is going on around them. I also agree with Michael's statement about finding space both rhythmically and harmonically. So unless the guitarist's know each other's playing really well I would say that it's not impossible but unlikely to work well.
I play regularly with another guitarist (Paul H.) at sessions and to make it work, the trick is for both players to be listening and communicating constantly. We hit it off from very early on but more playing together has improved our empathy. We find sitting together helps us hear each other and keep things tight.
Coincidentally, we're in the studio tonight doing the two guitar thing with a fiddler, Matt Pepin, who wants some of our sound on his CD (bless his cotton socks).
Paul plays in DADGAD and I'll use either regular or DADGAD. Certainly with regular + DADGAD guitars the combined chord voicings can sound very nice. Also, we'll take turns capoing up to have high jangle on one guitar and more bottom end on the other.
Sometimes if one of us want to try starting a "B" part on a 6 chord, for example, he'll simple yell "6!" in the other fellas ear - you'll know when you've done this too much when someone shouts"bingo".
I agree with KFG - I don't like to hear people beat the bejaysus out of a guitar, as it chokes all the space out of a tune (at least to my delicate little ears). But as someone (can't remember who) on this board once said to me, the role of the guitar in this music is not fixed and defined. The guitar is a fairly recent addition to this arena, and just because a lot of players seem to favour the full-strumming approach doesn't mean that its the only way to do it.
It seems to me that more and more threads on this board (you see, I haven't been posting long but I've been lurking for ages) are about guitars, in a "whatever are we to do with them" sort of vein, mainly from guitarists themselves. There is obviously wide variety of opinion as to whether guitars have much (or anything) to offer here.
I think that a lot of the problem is that most guitarists, myself included, came to this music *after* we'd been playing the guitar for a while. And since the guitar lends itself most naturally to things like blues, folk songs, pop songs, and to a certain extent jazz, most guitarists had learned skills and developed ears that are suited to these styles. Now, irish diddly music is far removed from these other styles, and you need to learn "new ears", and new skills to adapt your playing to it. I found this, and continue to find this, quite challenging. So in the interim period whilst you are learning the idosynchrasies (spelling?) and foibles of this music, a lot of players think "I know, I'll strum these chords all the way through this", and some melody players just don't like that. At all.
So, I reckon that the guitar is still learning to walk in a session setting. How players evole their strategies to get it run will be one of the most interesting develpments in the slow but steady evolution of this music.
Or, you could just bail out like me and buy a mandolin.
Another problem with the guitar is that it's not naturally a very loud instrument, so guitarists play too hard in an attempt to be heard and as a result no longer blend but muddy up the mix. I also think some of the rhythms used by guitarists are too heavy and override the subtle inner rhythms in the tunes. I think guitarists should listen to solo recordings of pipes or fiddles, etc., so as to become more tuned into those inner rhythms. All that said, I'm far from being anti-guitar, I just like them to be sensitive to the tune.
Tintin I know exactly what you mean about inner rhythms and I completely agree. By the way I used to watch you on TV when I was a kid - I thought you were fantastic, and still do!
I like what Michael was getting at - if you don't know your opponent/partner or if one of you isn't taking the rhythmic and harmonic choices of the other into account, it's never much fun for anyone. Importantly, theres no clash of egos with Ian and me; neither one of us is compelled to dominate. If one leads, the other does his best to compliment the established sense of rhythm harmony and space. It makes for a nice creative challenge and is a big part of what keeps me coming back for more.
"Importantly, theres no clash of egos with Ian and me"
Terribly, terribly important in all forms of group playing, but particularly in Irish music, because:
It is *not* "ensemble" music as the entire rest of the known universe understands that term. When played in groups it is played in unison because it is soloist music. Multiple instruments were originally added to simply increase the volume of the music above the sound of the dancers and partiers. It's amplification of the 'solo'. In the older tradition if there were two fiddlers at a ceildh and the volume of a single fiddle was suffcient they wouldn't play together. They would spell each other so that the music could continue uninterupted.
So I have two essential problems with guitar in Irish *dance* music:
First, even in its steel strung, jumbo bodied "Western" varieties it is an essenetially quiet and sweet instrument. Its voice does not blend well with the Holy Trininity of pipes, fiddles and whistles. It disrupts the single, unified voice of the music, especially if it is "banged on," which disrupts its own natural voice.
Second, when played as a rhythm instrument is is out of place with the solo nature of the music. It is an ensemble instrument that innately tends to impose itself on the music, rather than enhancing it.
This doesn't mean I flat out deny the valid use of guitar in the "The Music," but to have any positive effect I do think it has to be used extremely judiciously by someone with a reasonably deep feel and understanding of the music.
I like unaccompanied music. I also like well accompanied music. As already stated, it's hard enough for one accompanist to do a good job, and extremely rare for multiples to do anything except wreck the whole thing. Of course, I'm the type who's dubious about very many melody players at once, too...
Nevertheless, it's refreshing to hear Paul and Ians' point of view, and I'd be interested to hear the result. If only more players put more thought into what they play! (And learned that less is more.)
KFG...you left flutes out of your sacred list! I agree with much of the rest of your post, however. A group of solo instruments playing without accompaniment is lovely. Good accompaniment should not draw attention to itself as such but simply add lift to the tunes.
I know a couple of guitarists who can play together without being a disruption, but they've been playing together in sessions for well over two decades.
I also know one really bad guitarist who can cr*p up the music just by hitting one chord.
Both of the good ones play as much melody on their guitars as they do chords, and they both have an excellent understanding of how the tunes work and come together. They also play light, delicate, finger-pick accompaniments rather than doing a lot of strumming. I suspect these reasons are their real keys to success.
I really think that good accompaniment is the hardest thing to do on the guitar. It draws on a combination of skill, knowledge and sensitivity that’s rare. So, if you’ve got one good guitar player in action, the odds that the second guitar player to join in will be up to the job are pretty small.
Guitar is my first instrument, but I usually don’t play accompaniment in an Irish session, especially if I’m not familiar with the other players and *especially* if there’s another guitar player present. Some folks have pretty strong opinions about proper accompaniment and I don’t want to make myself unwelcome. If I know the tune or can pick it up before it’s over, I’ll play melody.
My favorite way to hear the traditional melody instruments is naked. The instrument, not me. Next would be with a drone or sparse accompaniment that adds lift and a little spice in the right places. I also like a full band with rhythm section, but it takes a highly skilled guitarist to pull it off without Phil-Spectoring the whole thing.
Not too many years ago, most accompaniment was of the oom-pah, bass-chord variety. Eventually, it’ll come back as a retro novelty fad.
I agree completely that two guitars in a session is one too many, and speaking as a guitarist who hasn't taken his guitar to an itm session for some months, especially after getting a reasonable bouzouki, I much prefer having both the different tone, and the ability to switch between melody and chord without difficulty.
There are, of course, those who think that ONE guitar or 'zouk is too many, like those who think that two bodrhans are too many.
I also think that some people try to fill up too much of the space, a 'zouk player a while ago was asking about how to strum the six beats of a jig in each bar, what order up and down ? My thought was "Leave half of them out." Lets have some music with holes in.
Agreed --- excellent way to put it. And a very delicate balance it is.
Someone here is trying to push me to learn how to do backing on fiddle, and I'm trying to get them to understand that not everything needs to be backed. Think I'll send them a link to this discussion.
I'm a long-time guitar player but I had the advantage of a decade-long layoff from playing while I engineered recordings, so when I came to Irish music, I had left virtually all my habits from other musics behind.
There is one guitarist in our sessions with whom I am happy to play, and we enjoy listening and doing very different things from one another, and being very careful to underplay behind the melodists. If it's just the two of us in session, one often yields to the other so that we both get some tunes but don't clog up the sound.
Sadly, we have lost a lot of our melodists (such is a college town, transient) and now we often have four guitarists in our Friday session. I once suggested that we communicate with one another, listen and work out something like taking turns and one of the four castigated me for a Session Nazi and Control Freak for weeks, so they all just bash away and I spend more time talking with friends who come there than I do playing.
There's one other zouk player and we can play well together, but I like to give him the 'right of way' and lay out if he'd like to play. I get to play more often than he does. Sometimes one of us will capo the zouk to separate the sounds.
I chalk a lot of this stuff up, in our particular sessions, to a social process more than a musical one. Our session group's core of folks (maybe a dozen, tho they don't all attend all the time) have played together about a decade and are adult residents, so there has been a lot of ... um... 'growing up together', so there's a certain amount of flexibility and patience surrounded by a lot of change in student personnel. We get along pretty well, with occaisional storms... <GG> We used to have a regular session of around 20 people and only one picker, for years. I think most folks think that this guitar-heavy environment will also pass, evolve into something else.
A lot of my favorite CDs have both bouzouki and guitar (Siobhan Peoples & Murty Ryan's "Time On Our Hands") or guitars arranged differently (Tommy O'Sullivan plays strummy on one track and tinkly cross-picked with a high-strung guitar on the Sliabh Notes records), and long before I got into ITM quite a few prominent professional players chose to include guitars in their bands and recordings, so it must be ok... <GGG>
In a class at the St. Louis Tionol Ged Foley suggested that there is a performance aspect to sessions, and that the overall sound should ideally be a concern of the players. This was mostly directed at guitar players (since Ged was teaching a guitar class! <G>), but there can probably be too many of any instrument in a session, and as has been noted, two can be too many if one isn't paying attention.
It's wonderful, as a picker, to play in small ensembles (sessions or performances) with up to four melody instruments, and our own gigging trio setting is really wonderful, allowing us to respond to what fiddler TJ Hull does, on the fly. Min and I both concentrate on following the nuances of the melodies. It also let's us highlight things by -not- playing, or with dynamics.
There are _definitely_ tunes, settings and moments that are best served without any accompaniment! I hope I always know when that is!!
Katiebee, you started this and then you walked out by the looks of things. It's pretty much all been said already, but the thing is that a guitar in a session isn't essential and a second one is definitely not needed. It can work in some situations as mentioned above. I would prefer to flatpick the melody - if I can, and leave the other guitarist to it.
As a fiddle player, I much prefer having a good backer at a session if it is to rate at all. *For me* (before you all start huffing and give yourselves heart attacks) there has to be at least one spot on backer. Luckily the backers that I have in mind are all melody players as well so they *understand* the tunes and the in workings of a tune session.
On a serious note, I am a relatively new entrant to Irish traditional music and a guitar player. I do not play any melody instruments mostly because I do not have the dexterity to do so without great effort. I grew up on Appalachian and then Bluegrass music so I play mostly a base line along with what I would call half chord strumming. What we called boom chicka. I then took a thirty year hiatus from playing.
I recognize and feel the dynamics of the tunes as the melody players play them and do my best to compliment their play. My question relates to the leaving of “holes” in the music. I recognize the importance of not filling in where there is an obvious rest and I can feel and compliment (I believe) the lift to a jig, the hop to a polka, the drive of a reel, the lilt of a hornpipe, and the sway to a waltz but would like more information about other “holes” that I may be overlooking. I know I need to learn more chord voices as I learned Appalachian music on the porches and in the fields so my knowledge and play is very basic.
Would one of you melody players relate your vision of proper backing and the leaving of “holes” to a particular tune or turn so that I may have a musical (not theory but typed words to sound) example, if indeed this is even possible? Also when you refer to “the strummers” are you referring to those that play the guitar like Richie Havens does in his infamous song “Freedom”?
Thank you for your help. By the way, I also agree that two guitar players or two of the same rhythm instrument players at the same time can have a devastating effect on the tune.
I'm a guitar picker learning the tunes as my kids learn them on tin whistle. The first thing I hear from musicians is that it doesn't work for the guitar to play melody lines at a session. I can tell you it does work and I hear it done regularly by several different guitarist. If I'm playing the melody on my Martin OM-21 with good pick technique it is audible. When another player at our session plays the melody it sounds good to my ears. I have to know the melody really well to play it well up to speed but doesn't everybody?
So to sum up my opinion, if a guitarist is playing the melody line, which most people seem to think is pointless, then you can have 2 or more guitarist in a session. I realize this is a minority opinion.
I have MS so the nerve signal to my fingers, as with other motor functions, is diminished considerably so I am unable to move my fingers at the rate necessary to properly finger all the notes. My left side function is more diminished than my right. I can pick varying notes with my right hand inside the chord pattern along with limited bass run notes and hammer-ons. I used to flatpick breaks on the guitar when I played Bluegrass but my ability was deteriorating as time went on with no explanation as to why. This was indeed very frustrating as I dedicated a great deal of effort just to maintain my ability to no avail. I became so very frustrated I put the guitar away for nearly thirty years. I thank a young lad in Athea who was playing the bodhrán along with a lass playing the fiddle and another playing the button box at the top of town during a regional Fleadh for inspiring me to learn how to play the bodhrán. This in turn brought me back to the guitar.
I would imagine that with considerable determination I would be able to accomplish playing melody but unfortunately the disease limits my energy so I save that energy for things like walking. This is not to say that I will never learn a melody instrument just that right now accompanying diddley greatly enhances my attitude about things and my future so therefore my quality of life. So as you see the music is of great importance to me and the people I’ve meet along the way even more so. That is why I wish to get it right, sort of a tribute to those that have been so supportive in my efforts.
I find that the more I play, the more I discover that I'm playing bits of the melody inside the chords, sort of the way Ed has described. Having recovered decades ago from the deep and perverse desire to be lead guitar player, I never expected this to happen, as I aspired only to be a solid and reliable accompanist in ITM.
Since I have said that to my session mates, they harass me mercilessly when they hear a bit of melody emerge from my instruments. Now I have reconciled myself to becoming melodic, somehow or other in the process, but I jjust hope to avoid that widespread guitarists' disease, the dreaded Fiddle Fever. Omigod. I tremble at the dark prospect...
It also seems to be what I have come down with. Haven't touched my guitar in weeks except to give lessons and do gigs. I am being assimilated. Resistence, at the moment, appears to be futile.
I find that two backers can work well together if they know each others playing and if they are both good listeners. Being a good listener is the key to being a good backer whether using guitar, bouzouki, mandola etc. I do a lot of sessions with a bouzouki player and we tend to work off each other well without ever having rehearsed anything. We often take it in turns in a set to back each tune and maybe give the last tune a lift by playing together. It is essential to listen to and watch the chord changes of whoever is the main backer in the session, if you are able to follow them it can lead to some very good two instrument backing situations. After all most of the best bands have two or more backers from Planxty to the Bothy Band to Dervish and Altan. If you reach a good understanding with another backer you can create spontaneous arrangements which can really add to a session.
However if you turn up at a session and there is a backer with their ears painted on, (i.e. they don't listen and thrash through the same formula for every tune) it is probably best not to join in until they are told to feck off by the rest of the musicians.
I know that It can be very frustrating when you travel to a session and you already find another backer, or even two there but the key to overcoming this is learning how to play the tunes too, whether this means learning another instrument like banjo or mandolin or learning tunes on guitar it is really the only way to fully understand the tunes and be able to back them well. Good musicians can always tell if the backer knows the tune!
By the way, if you are a tune player and you don't like the way someone accompanies at a sessiun you should please first try to tell them nicely that their style doesn't suit the session rather than either (a) giving them abuse or (b) ignoring them completely with that great Irish shunning technique! They are never going to learn how to back properly otherwise.
One final point, why oh why does no one ever give out about fiddle, pipe and whistle players playing out of tune? This makes the music sound much worse than two guitarists playing slightly different chords in tune! why do the backers always have to get the abuse?!!!
Thank you very much, it is even better than in my wildest dreams to be back in the music. I apologize for the delay in responding. We were in the mountains since Friday afternoon and just returned.
Peace,
Ed
P.S. I’d still like to know if “the strummers” are those that simply hammer wildly on the full six notes of a chord? This is what the nomenclature causes me to envision.
" I’d still like to know if “the strummers” are those that simply hammer wildly on the full six notes of a chord? This is what the nomenclature causes me to envision."
I haven't re-read the whole thread, so I don't know who used that term, but yeah, it means pretty much the same to me.
I like right-hand techniques better than left-hand for variation and character. Of course, both are important, but I feel that the right has more potential to set a style apart and still keep things simple enough to give plenty of room to the melodists.
And I can't move my left that fast... <GGG>
That's what I'd assume it means as well, it's Michael Gill who uses the term "strummers" and I think he means it for all
backers regardless of wether they're hammering away on all strings or not....I may be corrected on this.
I think I use the term strummers loosly to refer to anyone who isn't playing the tune. Perhaps this is a bit too loose, as I'd be refering to myself when I play counterpoint on the viola.
Well it sounds to me like defining “the strummers” in general is just like most other defining aspects of the music. It all depends upon when and with whom we speak. As Michael is the one I’ve seen use the term most often I will adopt his definition. Of course that is if he doesn’t mind. Well at least I now know that I don’t have to give up playing “Freedom”. Oh, thank goodness!
I agree Stv, the right hand is indeed the one I focus most on as it is the one that I generate the “groove”, if I may be so bold, with.
Ed,
I often strum in a 'book-chick' style myself, I figure if I keep doing it long enough, I will be in style again someday. Once, when I was accompanying a church service, I had written myself some stage notes on the program, and after one of the hymns, had written 'boom-chick-chick.' The minister saw it, and it took some explaining to make her understand that I was not making some sort of disrespectful reference to the fairer sex!
Hello everyone! What a lively discussion! Sorry, I drifted off into the real world for a while there... wasn't nearly as informative, wholesome or interesting as this thread. You guys rock.
I don’t know whether or not boom chick will come back into style or if indeed it ever fell out of style assuming that it was once in style.
I think what it comes down to is building a flexible contoured platform on which the melody players execute their craft. Like anything else the more tricks you have in your bag the greater versatility and prowess you have in accompanying the melody. But each and every trick need be applied with the tune and its current player(s) as the only focus. Unfortunately at this point in my journey when I call out into my bag of tricks there is an echo. I need to fill it further.
I also like crescendos and decrescendos in volume, not so much so that they are overbearing or unheard but more of a subtle undulation following the contour of the tune.
Great story about the Minister and your crib notes. We’ll have one or two Gospel night sing-along sessions up at our summer community each season. I love it especially if we can do it outside and make the mountain top sing out.
If anyone is ever in the Scranton/Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania area they are welcome to come and visit. My bride and I are usually there each weekend but check first.
Hey Katie Bee, I'd watch calling yourself a boom chick, it might people the wrong impression!!
As for boom chick guitar style, when it is done well with the right players it works very nicely. There's a guy I've seen at the Feakle Festival who looks a bit like Kramer from Seinfeld(!) but he's a great boom chick style player. The trouble with some boom chick style guitar players is that they learn exactly from some of the old records with dodgy piano backing. Some of this old style piano backing is just wrong, wrong chords, wrong rhythms, wrong bass lines etc! This is why a lot of boom chick style playing (be it guitar or piano) is just not in fashion anymore. A lot of that kind of randomly chromatic movement just clashes with the tune rather than blends with it, there are of course tunes which are exceptions to this, especially some Hornpipes and also some tune players play in a heavily accented style that really suits boom chick playing. So I would recommend learning how to do it and using it whenever you come across players like that, but I don't think it works in every situation, so to just call yourself a boom chick style player is a bit limiting, learn every kind of backing style well and you'll be appreciated by all but the most ignorant of tune players.
guitar etiquette
guitar etiquette
Is it just me, or is it impossible for more than one guitarist to play in a session without sending the whole thing out of phase? I don't mean me, as in my guitar playing... I mean, is it just me who's thinking this... but really, I'm open to opinions on either one.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by katiebee
Re: guitar etiquette
Unless you play alot with your "oponant", yes. Ensemble music is about finding and leaving space, both rythmically and harmoniucally. Very hard when you have 6 notes clattering away the whole tune long
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar etiquette
More guitarists seem to want to fill every space left by the one guitarist. Result = mud. Unless you're flatpicking the melody.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Bren
Re: guitar etiquette
I think it's difficult not to "clog up" the music with more than one guitar. I'm a guitarist myelf, and I ended up learning the mandolin for this very reason. If ever there's another guitarist at a session, I can switch to mando and play the melody instead of accompanyment. Also, for a guitarist, it's certainly a much smaller leap than learning the fiddle!
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: guitar etiquette
... with the added bnonus of getting to play the tunes
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar etiquette
I like guitar played with sparse chording - like just octaves and fifths. Even two guitars playing that way can work. Michael's got a point about using too-full chords. They don't usually fit.
Jim
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: guitar etiquette
I think it's the same with 1 guitar and 1 bouzouki.
More than one chordal accompaniment is going to
muddy things up, unless you arrange things, and then
it's more of a band arrangement than a session.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
Guitar is my 1st instrument, if there is already a guitarist sitting in on a session I will never join in but will either watch, listen and learn or sit and play whistle (quietly 'cause I'm still learning). Until the other guitarist either goes for pint or the little boys room. If it's one thing I hate its pounding guitars, with sometimes the guitarists not listening to what is going on around them. I also agree with Michael's statement about finding space both rhythmically and harmonically. So unless the guitarist's know each other's playing really well I would say that it's not impossible but unlikely to work well.
Mikk :(
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by mikk
Re: guitar etiquette
I play regularly with another guitarist (Paul H.) at sessions and to make it work, the trick is for both players to be listening and communicating constantly. We hit it off from very early on but more playing together has improved our empathy. We find sitting together helps us hear each other and keep things tight.
Coincidentally, we're in the studio tonight doing the two guitar thing with a fiddler, Matt Pepin, who wants some of our sound on his CD (bless his cotton socks).
Paul plays in DADGAD and I'll use either regular or DADGAD. Certainly with regular + DADGAD guitars the combined chord voicings can sound very nice. Also, we'll take turns capoing up to have high jangle on one guitar and more bottom end on the other.
Sometimes if one of us want to try starting a "B" part on a 6 chord, for example, he'll simple yell "6!" in the other fellas ear - you'll know when you've done this too much when someone shouts"bingo".
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by ian clark
Re: guitar etiquette
"I think it's difficult not to "clog up" the music with more than one guitar."
It seems difficult for most single guitarists not to clog up the music. There seems to be a feeling that they need to fill up all the space.
KFG
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
I agree with KFG - I don't like to hear people beat the bejaysus out of a guitar, as it chokes all the space out of a tune (at least to my delicate little ears). But as someone (can't remember who) on this board once said to me, the role of the guitar in this music is not fixed and defined. The guitar is a fairly recent addition to this arena, and just because a lot of players seem to favour the full-strumming approach doesn't mean that its the only way to do it.
It seems to me that more and more threads on this board (you see, I haven't been posting long but I've been lurking for ages) are about guitars, in a "whatever are we to do with them" sort of vein, mainly from guitarists themselves. There is obviously wide variety of opinion as to whether guitars have much (or anything) to offer here.
I think that a lot of the problem is that most guitarists, myself included, came to this music *after* we'd been playing the guitar for a while. And since the guitar lends itself most naturally to things like blues, folk songs, pop songs, and to a certain extent jazz, most guitarists had learned skills and developed ears that are suited to these styles. Now, irish diddly music is far removed from these other styles, and you need to learn "new ears", and new skills to adapt your playing to it. I found this, and continue to find this, quite challenging. So in the interim period whilst you are learning the idosynchrasies (spelling?) and foibles of this music, a lot of players think "I know, I'll strum these chords all the way through this", and some melody players just don't like that. At all.
So, I reckon that the guitar is still learning to walk in a session setting. How players evole their strategies to get it run will be one of the most interesting develpments in the slow but steady evolution of this music.
Or, you could just bail out like me and buy a mandolin.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: guitar etiquette
"the guitar is still learning to walk in a session setting"
You get good guitarists and sh*t guitarists, just like you get good and sh*t fiddlers or flute players.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: guitar etiquette
Oh bugger.....It took me ages to type that lot and I thought it was dead profound, like.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by plinkeyplonkey
Re: guitar etiquette
Another problem with the guitar is that it's not naturally a very loud instrument, so guitarists play too hard in an attempt to be heard and as a result no longer blend but muddy up the mix. I also think some of the rhythms used by guitarists are too heavy and override the subtle inner rhythms in the tunes. I think guitarists should listen to solo recordings of pipes or fiddles, etc., so as to become more tuned into those inner rhythms. All that said, I'm far from being anti-guitar, I just like them to be sensitive to the tune.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by mcswiss
Re: guitar etiquette
Tintin I know exactly what you mean about inner rhythms and I completely agree. By the way I used to watch you on TV when I was a kid - I thought you were fantastic, and still do!
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: guitar etiquette
I like what Michael was getting at - if you don't know your opponent/partner or if one of you isn't taking the rhythmic and harmonic choices of the other into account, it's never much fun for anyone. Importantly, theres no clash of egos with Ian and me; neither one of us is compelled to dominate. If one leads, the other does his best to compliment the established sense of rhythm harmony and space. It makes for a nice creative challenge and is a big part of what keeps me coming back for more.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Pawl
Re: guitar etiquette
"Importantly, theres no clash of egos with Ian and me"
Terribly, terribly important in all forms of group playing, but particularly in Irish music, because:
It is *not* "ensemble" music as the entire rest of the known universe understands that term. When played in groups it is played in unison because it is soloist music. Multiple instruments were originally added to simply increase the volume of the music above the sound of the dancers and partiers. It's amplification of the 'solo'. In the older tradition if there were two fiddlers at a ceildh and the volume of a single fiddle was suffcient they wouldn't play together. They would spell each other so that the music could continue uninterupted.
So I have two essential problems with guitar in Irish *dance* music:
First, even in its steel strung, jumbo bodied "Western" varieties it is an essenetially quiet and sweet instrument. Its voice does not blend well with the Holy Trininity of pipes, fiddles and whistles. It disrupts the single, unified voice of the music, especially if it is "banged on," which disrupts its own natural voice.
Second, when played as a rhythm instrument is is out of place with the solo nature of the music. It is an ensemble instrument that innately tends to impose itself on the music, rather than enhancing it.
This doesn't mean I flat out deny the valid use of guitar in the "The Music," but to have any positive effect I do think it has to be used extremely judiciously by someone with a reasonably deep feel and understanding of the music.
KFG
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
I like unaccompanied music. I also like well accompanied music. As already stated, it's hard enough for one accompanist to do a good job, and extremely rare for multiples to do anything except wreck the whole thing. Of course, I'm the type who's dubious about very many melody players at once, too...
Nevertheless, it's refreshing to hear Paul and Ians' point of view, and I'd be interested to hear the result. If only more players put more thought into what they play! (And learned that less is more.)
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by kris
Re: guitar etiquette
KFG...you left flutes out of your sacred list! I agree with much of the rest of your post, however. A group of solo instruments playing without accompaniment is lovely. Good accompaniment should not draw attention to itself as such but simply add lift to the tunes.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by mcswiss
Re: guitar etiquette
"KFG...you left flutes out of your sacred list!"
Why yes, yes I did. Fancy that.
KFG
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
I know a couple of guitarists who can play together without being a disruption, but they've been playing together in sessions for well over two decades.
I also know one really bad guitarist who can cr*p up the music just by hitting one chord.
Both of the good ones play as much melody on their guitars as they do chords, and they both have an excellent understanding of how the tunes work and come together. They also play light, delicate, finger-pick accompaniments rather than doing a lot of strumming. I suspect these reasons are their real keys to success.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by sara g
Re: guitar etiquette
I really think that good accompaniment is the hardest thing to do on the guitar. It draws on a combination of skill, knowledge and sensitivity that’s rare. So, if you’ve got one good guitar player in action, the odds that the second guitar player to join in will be up to the job are pretty small.
Guitar is my first instrument, but I usually don’t play accompaniment in an Irish session, especially if I’m not familiar with the other players and *especially* if there’s another guitar player present. Some folks have pretty strong opinions about proper accompaniment and I don’t want to make myself unwelcome. If I know the tune or can pick it up before it’s over, I’ll play melody.
My favorite way to hear the traditional melody instruments is naked. The instrument, not me. Next would be with a drone or sparse accompaniment that adds lift and a little spice in the right places. I also like a full band with rhythm section, but it takes a highly skilled guitarist to pull it off without Phil-Spectoring the whole thing.
Not too many years ago, most accompaniment was of the oom-pah, bass-chord variety. Eventually, it’ll come back as a retro novelty fad.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: guitar etiquette
I agree completely that two guitars in a session is one too many, and speaking as a guitarist who hasn't taken his guitar to an itm session for some months, especially after getting a reasonable bouzouki, I much prefer having both the different tone, and the ability to switch between melody and chord without difficulty.
There are, of course, those who think that ONE guitar or 'zouk is too many, like those who think that two bodrhans are too many.
I also think that some people try to fill up too much of the space, a 'zouk player a while ago was asking about how to strum the six beats of a jig in each bar, what order up and down ? My thought was "Leave half of them out." Lets have some music with holes in.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: guitar etiquette
yes, holes, that's the best way to look at it. The delicate balance of leaving empty holes and filling holes.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar etiquette
Agreed --- excellent way to put it. And a very delicate balance it is.
Someone here is trying to push me to learn how to do backing on fiddle, and I'm trying to get them to understand that not everything needs to be backed. Think I'll send them a link to this discussion.
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by sara g
Re: guitar etiquette
It's really difficult with lots of guitars.
I'm a long-time guitar player but I had the advantage of a decade-long layoff from playing while I engineered recordings, so when I came to Irish music, I had left virtually all my habits from other musics behind.
There is one guitarist in our sessions with whom I am happy to play, and we enjoy listening and doing very different things from one another, and being very careful to underplay behind the melodists. If it's just the two of us in session, one often yields to the other so that we both get some tunes but don't clog up the sound.
Sadly, we have lost a lot of our melodists (such is a college town, transient) and now we often have four guitarists in our Friday session. I once suggested that we communicate with one another, listen and work out something like taking turns and one of the four castigated me for a Session Nazi and Control Freak for weeks, so they all just bash away and I spend more time talking with friends who come there than I do playing.
There's one other zouk player and we can play well together, but I like to give him the 'right of way' and lay out if he'd like to play. I get to play more often than he does. Sometimes one of us will capo the zouk to separate the sounds.
I chalk a lot of this stuff up, in our particular sessions, to a social process more than a musical one. Our session group's core of folks (maybe a dozen, tho they don't all attend all the time) have played together about a decade and are adult residents, so there has been a lot of ... um... 'growing up together', so there's a certain amount of flexibility and patience surrounded by a lot of change in student personnel. We get along pretty well, with occaisional storms... <GG> We used to have a regular session of around 20 people and only one picker, for years. I think most folks think that this guitar-heavy environment will also pass, evolve into something else.
A lot of my favorite CDs have both bouzouki and guitar (Siobhan Peoples & Murty Ryan's "Time On Our Hands") or guitars arranged differently (Tommy O'Sullivan plays strummy on one track and tinkly cross-picked with a high-strung guitar on the Sliabh Notes records), and long before I got into ITM quite a few prominent professional players chose to include guitars in their bands and recordings, so it must be ok... <GGG>
In a class at the St. Louis Tionol Ged Foley suggested that there is a performance aspect to sessions, and that the overall sound should ideally be a concern of the players. This was mostly directed at guitar players (since Ged was teaching a guitar class! <G>), but there can probably be too many of any instrument in a session, and as has been noted, two can be too many if one isn't paying attention.
It's wonderful, as a picker, to play in small ensembles (sessions or performances) with up to four melody instruments, and our own gigging trio setting is really wonderful, allowing us to respond to what fiddler TJ Hull does, on the fly. Min and I both concentrate on following the nuances of the melodies. It also let's us highlight things by -not- playing, or with dynamics.
There are _definitely_ tunes, settings and moments that are best served without any accompaniment! I hope I always know when that is!!
stv
http://www.cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on June 9th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: guitar etiquette
Katiebee, you started this and then you walked out by the looks of things. It's pretty much all been said already, but the thing is that a guitar in a session isn't essential and a second one is definitely not needed. It can work in some situations as mentioned above. I would prefer to flatpick the melody - if I can, and leave the other guitarist to it.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Donough
Re: guitar etiquette
As a fiddle player, I much prefer having a good backer at a session if it is to rate at all. *For me* (before you all start huffing and give yourselves heart attacks) there has to be at least one spot on backer. Luckily the backers that I have in mind are all melody players as well so they *understand* the tunes and the in workings of a tune session.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by bb
Re: guitar etiquette
As a guitar player if I have to have a backer when I'm playing fiddle I'd rather have a cello.
KFG
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
Hmmm, back to my point on the other thread -isnt it just so lovely that we are very different people. Keeps things interesting.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by bb
Re: guitar etiquette
So the question is, what do we do with the tuba player?
KFG
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
"…what do we do with the tuba player?"
Encourage them to join a marching band.
On a serious note, I am a relatively new entrant to Irish traditional music and a guitar player. I do not play any melody instruments mostly because I do not have the dexterity to do so without great effort. I grew up on Appalachian and then Bluegrass music so I play mostly a base line along with what I would call half chord strumming. What we called boom chicka. I then took a thirty year hiatus from playing.
I recognize and feel the dynamics of the tunes as the melody players play them and do my best to compliment their play. My question relates to the leaving of “holes” in the music. I recognize the importance of not filling in where there is an obvious rest and I can feel and compliment (I believe) the lift to a jig, the hop to a polka, the drive of a reel, the lilt of a hornpipe, and the sway to a waltz but would like more information about other “holes” that I may be overlooking. I know I need to learn more chord voices as I learned Appalachian music on the porches and in the fields so my knowledge and play is very basic.
Would one of you melody players relate your vision of proper backing and the leaving of “holes” to a particular tune or turn so that I may have a musical (not theory but typed words to sound) example, if indeed this is even possible? Also when you refer to “the strummers” are you referring to those that play the guitar like Richie Havens does in his infamous song “Freedom”?
Thank you for your help. By the way, I also agree that two guitar players or two of the same rhythm instrument players at the same time can have a devastating effect on the tune.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by ejsant
Re: guitar etiquette
I don't understand the dexterity thing. Do you not need equally as much if not more to play the guitar?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar etiquette
Ah no.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
I'm a guitar picker learning the tunes as my kids learn them on tin whistle. The first thing I hear from musicians is that it doesn't work for the guitar to play melody lines at a session. I can tell you it does work and I hear it done regularly by several different guitarist. If I'm playing the melody on my Martin OM-21 with good pick technique it is audible. When another player at our session plays the melody it sounds good to my ears. I have to know the melody really well to play it well up to speed but doesn't everybody?
So to sum up my opinion, if a guitarist is playing the melody line, which most people seem to think is pointless, then you can have 2 or more guitarist in a session. I realize this is a minority opinion.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by JPcares
Re: guitar etiquette
I would doubt that it's a minority opinion.
I think people are reffering to two guitarist playing chords.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
Greetings Michael,
I have MS so the nerve signal to my fingers, as with other motor functions, is diminished considerably so I am unable to move my fingers at the rate necessary to properly finger all the notes. My left side function is more diminished than my right. I can pick varying notes with my right hand inside the chord pattern along with limited bass run notes and hammer-ons. I used to flatpick breaks on the guitar when I played Bluegrass but my ability was deteriorating as time went on with no explanation as to why. This was indeed very frustrating as I dedicated a great deal of effort just to maintain my ability to no avail. I became so very frustrated I put the guitar away for nearly thirty years. I thank a young lad in Athea who was playing the bodhrán along with a lass playing the fiddle and another playing the button box at the top of town during a regional Fleadh for inspiring me to learn how to play the bodhrán. This in turn brought me back to the guitar.
I would imagine that with considerable determination I would be able to accomplish playing melody but unfortunately the disease limits my energy so I save that energy for things like walking. This is not to say that I will never learn a melody instrument just that right now accompanying diddley greatly enhances my attitude about things and my future so therefore my quality of life. So as you see the music is of great importance to me and the people I’ve meet along the way even more so. That is why I wish to get it right, sort of a tribute to those that have been so supportive in my efforts.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by ejsant
Re: guitar etiquette
Fair play.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
More then.
Good on ya, Ed.
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: guitar etiquette
Welcome back to the music, Ed!
I find that the more I play, the more I discover that I'm playing bits of the melody inside the chords, sort of the way Ed has described. Having recovered decades ago from the deep and perverse desire to be lead guitar player, I never expected this to happen, as I aspired only to be a solid and reliable accompanist in ITM.
Since I have said that to my session mates, they harass me mercilessly when they hear a bit of melody emerge from my instruments. Now I have reconciled myself to becoming melodic, somehow or other in the process, but I jjust hope to avoid that widespread guitarists' disease, the dreaded Fiddle Fever. Omigod. I tremble at the dark prospect...
<GG>
stv
http://www.cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: guitar etiquette
Fiddle Fever? Whus dat?
# Posted on June 10th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: guitar etiquette
you've ''hit it'' straight on stv
john
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: guitar etiquette
Jay Ungar's band, of course, Bob.
It also seems to be what I have come down with. Haven't touched my guitar in weeks except to give lessons and do gigs. I am being assimilated. Resistence, at the moment, appears to be futile.
KFG
# Posted on June 11th 2005 by KFG
Re: guitar etiquette
I find that two backers can work well together if they know each others playing and if they are both good listeners. Being a good listener is the key to being a good backer whether using guitar, bouzouki, mandola etc. I do a lot of sessions with a bouzouki player and we tend to work off each other well without ever having rehearsed anything. We often take it in turns in a set to back each tune and maybe give the last tune a lift by playing together. It is essential to listen to and watch the chord changes of whoever is the main backer in the session, if you are able to follow them it can lead to some very good two instrument backing situations. After all most of the best bands have two or more backers from Planxty to the Bothy Band to Dervish and Altan. If you reach a good understanding with another backer you can create spontaneous arrangements which can really add to a session.
However if you turn up at a session and there is a backer with their ears painted on, (i.e. they don't listen and thrash through the same formula for every tune) it is probably best not to join in until they are told to feck off by the rest of the musicians.
I know that It can be very frustrating when you travel to a session and you already find another backer, or even two there but the key to overcoming this is learning how to play the tunes too, whether this means learning another instrument like banjo or mandolin or learning tunes on guitar it is really the only way to fully understand the tunes and be able to back them well. Good musicians can always tell if the backer knows the tune!
By the way, if you are a tune player and you don't like the way someone accompanies at a sessiun you should please first try to tell them nicely that their style doesn't suit the session rather than either (a) giving them abuse or (b) ignoring them completely with that great Irish shunning technique! They are never going to learn how to back properly otherwise.
One final point, why oh why does no one ever give out about fiddle, pipe and whistle players playing out of tune? This makes the music sound much worse than two guitarists playing slightly different chords in tune! why do the backers always have to get the abuse?!!!
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: guitar etiquette
Frisbee, I agree - a bad tune player can be just as bad for a session as a bad backer.
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by bb
Re: guitar etiquette
Greetings BegF, Zina, and Stv,
Thank you very much, it is even better than in my wildest dreams to be back in the music. I apologize for the delay in responding. We were in the mountains since Friday afternoon and just returned.
Peace,
Ed
P.S. I’d still like to know if “the strummers” are those that simply hammer wildly on the full six notes of a chord? This is what the nomenclature causes me to envision.
# Posted on June 12th 2005 by ejsant
Re: guitar etiquette
" I’d still like to know if “the strummers” are those that simply hammer wildly on the full six notes of a chord? This is what the nomenclature causes me to envision."
I haven't re-read the whole thread, so I don't know who used that term, but yeah, it means pretty much the same to me.
I like right-hand techniques better than left-hand for variation and character. Of course, both are important, but I feel that the right has more potential to set a style apart and still keep things simple enough to give plenty of room to the melodists.
And I can't move my left that fast... <GGG>
stv
http://www.cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: guitar etiquette
That's what I'd assume it means as well, it's Michael Gill who uses the term "strummers" and I think he means it for all
backers regardless of wether they're hammering away on all strings or not....I may be corrected on this.
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
I think I use the term strummers loosly to refer to anyone who isn't playing the tune. Perhaps this is a bit too loose, as I'd be refering to myself when I play counterpoint on the viola.
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar etiquette
Or indeed any player (including guitar) who plays counterpoint
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by BegF
Re: guitar etiquette
depends on the session, the guitarist(s) and the tune.........
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by flying tigerpig
Re: guitar etiquette
Well it sounds to me like defining “the strummers” in general is just like most other defining aspects of the music. It all depends upon when and with whom we speak. As Michael is the one I’ve seen use the term most often I will adopt his definition. Of course that is if he doesn’t mind. Well at least I now know that I don’t have to give up playing “Freedom”. Oh, thank goodness!
I agree Stv, the right hand is indeed the one I focus most on as it is the one that I generate the “groove”, if I may be so bold, with.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by ejsant
Re: guitar etiquette
Ed,
I often strum in a 'book-chick' style myself, I figure if I keep doing it long enough, I will be in style again someday. Once, when I was accompanying a church service, I had written myself some stage notes on the program, and after one of the hymns, had written 'boom-chick-chick.' The minister saw it, and it took some explaining to make her understand that I was not making some sort of disrespectful reference to the fairer sex!
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: guitar etiquette
I'm a boom chick.
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by katiebee
Re: guitar etiquette
Hello everyone! What a lively discussion! Sorry, I drifted off into the real world for a while there... wasn't nearly as informative, wholesome or interesting as this thread. You guys rock.
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by katiebee
Re: guitar etiquette
Greetings Al,
I don’t know whether or not boom chick will come back into style or if indeed it ever fell out of style assuming that it was once in style.
I think what it comes down to is building a flexible contoured platform on which the melody players execute their craft. Like anything else the more tricks you have in your bag the greater versatility and prowess you have in accompanying the melody. But each and every trick need be applied with the tune and its current player(s) as the only focus. Unfortunately at this point in my journey when I call out into my bag of tricks there is an echo. I need to fill it further.
I also like crescendos and decrescendos in volume, not so much so that they are overbearing or unheard but more of a subtle undulation following the contour of the tune.
Great story about the Minister and your crib notes. We’ll have one or two Gospel night sing-along sessions up at our summer community each season. I love it especially if we can do it outside and make the mountain top sing out.
If anyone is ever in the Scranton/Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania area they are welcome to come and visit. My bride and I are usually there each weekend but check first.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 13th 2005 by ejsant
Boom Chick
Hey Katie Bee, I'd watch calling yourself a boom chick, it might people the wrong impression!!
As for boom chick guitar style, when it is done well with the right players it works very nicely. There's a guy I've seen at the Feakle Festival who looks a bit like Kramer from Seinfeld(!) but he's a great boom chick style player. The trouble with some boom chick style guitar players is that they learn exactly from some of the old records with dodgy piano backing. Some of this old style piano backing is just wrong, wrong chords, wrong rhythms, wrong bass lines etc! This is why a lot of boom chick style playing (be it guitar or piano) is just not in fashion anymore. A lot of that kind of randomly chromatic movement just clashes with the tune rather than blends with it, there are of course tunes which are exceptions to this, especially some Hornpipes and also some tune players play in a heavily accented style that really suits boom chick playing. So I would recommend learning how to do it and using it whenever you come across players like that, but I don't think it works in every situation, so to just call yourself a boom chick style player is a bit limiting, learn every kind of backing style well and you'll be appreciated by all but the most ignorant of tune players.
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by The Tune Composer
Re: guitar etiquette
At the beginning there it should say 'it might give people the wrong impression'
# Posted on June 17th 2005 by The Tune Composer